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Dick Smith
22nd Oct 2013, 03:39
Here is a graph of the latest figures taken from the Department of Infrastructure & Regional Development’s database of Australian private and business flying hours on a five year moving average.

http://i950.photobucket.com/albums/ad341/margot1111/generalaviationflyinghoursgraph_zps0adab76a.png (http://s950.photobucket.com/user/margot1111/media/generalaviationflyinghoursgraph_zps0adab76a.png.html)

Does anyone have any suggestions as to why this is down so much? Of course, part of the reason would be that people are forced to move from general aviation to recreational aviation because of costs and maybe these figures are not included.

It’s interesting – just about everything else relies on growth to succeed; it’s certainly not the same in private and business flying.

I look forward to your comments.

Paragraph377
22nd Oct 2013, 04:07
Dick, perhaps the reason in part is due to a number of the older generation quite simply throwing in the towel and buying RV's and hitting the road because Australia's incompetent government and regulatory body has made it so damn difficult to fly? Reams of paperwork, endless reports, updates, re-training, the endless changes to the rule set, the cost (as you alluded to) that includes dealing with and complying with all the burdensome rules have taken the complete and utter joy out of flying? Add to this the extra fun you have when Inspector Plod jumps out of the bushes at a rural airstrip and charges you with performing illegal maintenance of an aircraft because you wiped bugs of the windshield with a Kleenex.........you get my point mate. Regardless of whether one flies for a living or like the majority of us flies for the recreation, peace and contentment, it is just to much of a hassle.

Ex FSO GRIFFO
22nd Oct 2013, 04:15
I reckon I can sum that up in just one word Dick,

"PRIVATISATION".

Think - 'landing fees' for every T&G, plus of course, for the 'compulsory' full stop..?

Or maybe 'User Pays' would also get a big mention.

Think - all 'mandatory / current' publications, maps charts etc,
most of which used to be issued 'free'.
e.g.
Wanna BUY a 'holder' for ya overpriced AIP's Kid..??
Now I pay $11 every few months or so, for VTC VNC etc
Even WAC's WERE less than $2...

And no, I do not believe that my safety has been enhanced, and no, it does NOT cost me less.....

No cheers:}

Flying Binghi
22nd Oct 2013, 04:53
Probably a lot are doing as i do when the time wasting survey turns up... to the Bin.

Horatio Leafblower
22nd Oct 2013, 05:08
Which period shows the sharpest fall?

Who was the Chairman in that period? :suspect:

Of course, if you drew the graph with a full scale down to zero (rather than making it look like zero) the decline would appear much less dramatic. :=

Did Warren Truss announce 2 more board members for CASA? Whats the money on Dick having a tilt at it?

VH-XXX
22nd Oct 2013, 05:09
From a business perspective:

Since 1990 airline travel has become far more efficient and cost effective. I recall flying to Darwin in 1993 and it cost around $700. I could probably do that for half these days.

Why would I fly to Melbourne to Hobart Tasmania myself in my company's C182 at a cost of close to a couple of thousand retail when I could fly there on Jetstar or Tiger for $69? Since 1990 the price of Avgas has soared, aircraft hire rates are up and the list goes on.

As much as our time and the time of the CEO or company director is valuable, it's not that valuable when airline travel is so cheap. You can work on your laptop, use Skype and Facetime etc, email with little disruption to your productivity.

Short of travel to places that aren't serviced by an airline or companies with money to burn that believe that their time is worth the cost of running a Citation interstate, there are few reasons for such expense.



Probably a lot are doing as i do when the time wasting survey turns up... to the Bin.

Failure to respond to the survey may cop you a significant penalty. I would be hesitant to continue with this approach to the survey.

Frank Arouet
22nd Oct 2013, 05:18
Failure to respond to the survey may cop you a significant penalty

here you go then. This is the sort of thing that makes people just give up as they don't know what is legal or illegal anymore.

Common sense is no guide today.

Dick Smith
22nd Oct 2013, 06:22
No way would you want me on that board. I would just concentrate on getting costs down and participation levels up.

I would no doubt be accused of " introducing affordable safety" again. What a disaster that would be. Un - affordable safety is clearly the way to go.

But you can rest easy. As Lauri Brereton said " never return to the scene of the crime"

Old Akro
22nd Oct 2013, 06:33
My first question would be where did the the figures come from?

I haven't filled out any surveys for CASA on the amount of flying I've done and I'm sure that the guys flying RV's haven't. The only accessible GA flying hours that I can think of would be from flight plans & AsA billing data. This would not have any validity as a metric for GA. Does AVGAS sales back this up?

The second question is why use a 5-year moving average.

It makes zero sense to me. Typically you would do this to smooth out cyclical variations, which do not apply here. the main effect on this data will be to make the decline look less steep.

Old Akro
22nd Oct 2013, 06:42
In fact, looking at the "Australian Infrastructure Statistics Yearbook" (which is I presume where the graph came from) you can see that there is steady growth in the number of piston engine fixed wing aircraft on register. This would seem to be in conflict with the flying hours graph.

I think I smell a Canberra based office bound bureaucrat that has assembled data that he / she doesn't understand,

Wally Mk2
22nd Oct 2013, 06:43
Without all the finer details points as to why flying has dropped off there's really only one reason at the end of the day us working plebs understand/know, COST, pure & simple.
Flying privately or even for business purposes is a huge expense & when Co's are always trying to find ways to reduce overheads & increase profits or at least stay afloat what gets the chop real quick? The luxuries or convenient items such as Co funded getaways & the Co Limo, the flying machine (if that be the case).

Private flying comes under the banner of that ever decreasing 'disposable income', something Aussies once had a reasonable amount of once upon a time. I'd hate to imagine how much an Hr it would cost to hire a 4 seater for pleasure.


Wmk2

VH-XXX
22nd Oct 2013, 06:44
The survey is sent to aircraft owners, not all pilots. Therefore the results should be accurate in theory. I know if you don't full it out you get a reminder with a warning attached about the penalties of not responding.

Old Akro
22nd Oct 2013, 06:47
In fact, if you look here Aviation Fuel Sales (http://www.bitre.gov.au/statistics/aviation/av_fuel_sales.aspx#avgas)

AVGAS sales are about static. PLUS, JetA-1 burning aircraft are in the GA fleet in increasing numbers.

The flying hours graph just looks wrong.

Old Akro
22nd Oct 2013, 06:52
And the graph is in conflict with the numbers here:

General Aviation (http://www.bitre.gov.au/statistics/aviation/general_aviation.aspx)

Its a bit scary that decisions might be being made in Canberra based on that graph.

kellykelpie
22nd Oct 2013, 07:07
When I learned to fly in the mid 80s it was so cheap. A 152 cost as little as $35/hour. From memory, WACs, EASA, The Visual Flight Guide (remember that?) were free or next to nothing. It has become so expensive to fly now that it is prohibitive to a demographic that could once enjoy it.

Flying has also become quite complex - no FSOs to give you a tip or check the plan. In trying to simplify it, there's more classes of airspace and more rules - I couldn't even tell you the VFR distances from cloud, the CTAF required calls or the Class D procedures for my local airport. These things have changed so much and so often that I'm deterred from driving down to Jandakot to hire an aircraft. Then there's the expense....

However I've just realized that you may have part answered your own question Dick -

That's why we removed operational control by CAA and the secondary airports RFFS and full position VFR reporting . Allowed money to be spent by the industry where real safety could be improved.

And it has clearly worked. No one is calling for a reversal of those reforms .

Flying Binghi
22nd Oct 2013, 07:15
via VH-XXX:
The survey is sent to aircraft owners, not all pilots. Therefore the results should be accurate in theory. I know if you don't full it out you get a reminder with a warning attached about the penalties of not responding.


Yep, enuf paperwork to fill the bin. Imagine if all car owners got a 'how much do ya drive' survey to fill in... :E










.

ZAZ
22nd Oct 2013, 07:35
Tune in to 126.7 the ulta light boys they are all out there fllying...
GA..................................................
And $2.20 per litre for avgas doesnt help.
heaps of $250,000 toys up for sale for $150,000.
Aging GA pilots failing medicals.
Flight check costs BFR and IFR.
Maintenance of aging aircraft.
And flying a house around if its a new aircraft.
To name a few reasons....
I can think of two Lance pilots here who are grounded and their planes are sold.
I have managed 100 per year since 1980 and did 28 this year...
Plane will run out of time before it runs out of engine hours...
Love to fly cant justify the cost to even fly to nearest VOR and chuck an approach and back costs about $200
To do three t/o and landings about $50
A BFR IFR about $800



2 cents

thorn bird
22nd Oct 2013, 07:36
"Un - affordable safety is clearly the way to go."

Unfortunately Dick thats the mantra of our regulators.
I hear rumours that the "iron ring" has placed themselves outside any scrutiny by anyone, not even their own complaints person...very nice lady but she cannot involve herself in any scrutiny of the top five, not even if she receives a "Turkey slap" of blatant corruption.
The intent I fear is those guiding current policy are of the belief that by restricting the number of AOC's either by shutting them down by Hook but mostly by crook or pricing them out of business, will leave behind super AOC holders capable of absorbing the massively increased cost of regulatory bastardry, much like the super medical clinics promoted by the previous government, to cure deficiencies in health care.
What they fail to realise that aviation is by and large a service industry and other than the mainline airline part of it, not something essential, just something nice to have if needed. Drive the cost up and a point is reached where the user says, "bugger this I dont want to buy the bloody aircraft, just rent it for a few hours" and starts looking for alternatives, that is why hours flown are diminishing.
I can remember years ago flying you round the Southwest of Tasmania and seeing the enthusiasm and excitement in your eye's, you just dont see that anymore. The Kid hanging over the aerodrome fence is gone.
If you think about it, my childhood hero's. the Kingsford smith's etc would now be in jail or most certainly "Not fit and proper persons"
I have talked to european Backpackers outside my home in SE Asia who all expressed that they were disappointed with Australia because everything was so controlled, no excitement, no freedom, maybe thats why people are not getting involved in aviation today.

aroa
22nd Oct 2013, 08:11
Oz is a misnomer..its actually Can't Country or Regulatastan. Bureaucrap rules OK? :mad:
VH GA is just about stuffed and I'm sure in FF they have an eye on the burgeoning Rec industry to "control" that into the ground as well.

Remember.."Safe Skies are Empty Skies" :{

Fred Gassit
22nd Oct 2013, 08:29
A small town in a rural corner of my home state no longer has a Doctor to perform medicals and the last instructor capable of doing BFR's has retired.

This is a vibrant little community with 20+ aircraft and owners in the immediate are but with The nearest medical and or BFR are all but days away I dont know what the future looks like there.

PS. Im told the medicals stopped because the regulator has made it more trouble than its worth to hold the approval.

Capn Bloggs
22nd Oct 2013, 09:38
Does anyone have any suggestions as to why this is down so much?
The constant change in airspace and rules, how to do things like flight planning/getting weather/NOTAMs since, well, let us guess... would have a lot to do with it!

Odd how with relative stability in the above items in the last few years coincides with a smaller dropoff in flying rate... :cool:

layman
22nd Oct 2013, 09:56
At an airport that lots of pollies fly into (and out of), about 10 or so years ago there used to be 6 or 7 companies / clubs offering flying lessons. There are now none - in a city of 350,000. Makes it just that bit more difficult to even get started.

peterc005
22nd Oct 2013, 10:26
Dick, would you kindly provide a reference to that graph, I couldn't find it on the Bureau of Infrastructure, Transport and Regional Economics (http://www.bitre.gov.au) web site.

I did find this graph, which while not a direct comparison, was interesting and seems to show the GA flying activity has been pretty steady over the past decade:

http://www.bitre.gov.au/publications/ongoing/files/General_Aviation_Activity2010.pdf (page 8).

Possibly the rise in popularity of Sports aviation is responsible for the missing hours?

SOPS
22nd Oct 2013, 10:47
It's simple. GA has been costed/regulated slowly out of existence.

When I learnt to fly 35 years ago, I could drive down to Jandakot on the weekend, grab a free VTC from the friendly guys at the briefing office, hop in a 152, fly to Fremantle and back do a few circuits and land, all for no extra charge and just doing it was simple.

Now, everything you want to do is charged on top of the aircraft. You need an ASIC, a hi viz, god knows what else, before you even start.

The VERY SAME 152 that I learnt to fly in 35 years ago that cost $35 an hour is now charged out $310 an hour plus all the add ons.

And the regulations just to something simple...are simply mind boggling.

But it's simple really, in a few years time, if you want to learn to fly, you will be able to, but you will have to move to China.

It's criminal what has been allowed to happen to the GA industry. I hope Dick is happy.

Jack Ranga
22nd Oct 2013, 10:54
What sort of a brainless f@ckwit pays $310 for a C152?

SOPS
22nd Oct 2013, 11:00
People are Jack. A TIF in a 152 is now over $180. And that is just 30 minutes long!

Paragraph377
22nd Oct 2013, 11:05
Thorny, gold mate gold! This one goes down as saying of the month;"Turkey slap of blatant corruption". I am also sure some of the other swines balls have slapped them in the head as they dive head first into the trough :E

Ultralights
22nd Oct 2013, 11:24
im paying just a litte more than that for a C206! no way on earth wouldl i pay it for a 152

Ex FSO GRIFFO
22nd Oct 2013, 11:25
Re " PS. Im told the medicals stopped because the regulator has made it more trouble than its worth to hold the approval. "

Touche.....( E acute)

One of my previous Docs told me the same, some time ago....
"Bureaucratic red tape..." Bah Humbug!!!

No Cheers:yuk:

bankrunner
22nd Oct 2013, 12:04
At an airport that lots of pollies fly into (and out of), about 10 or so years ago there used to be 6 or 7 companies / clubs offering flying lessons. There are now none - in a city of 350,000. Makes it just that bit more difficult to even get started.

As of relatively recently there's at least one operator based in Goulburn who now does some training from YSCB, at least on a part time basis. The CFI is held in very high regard locally so I suspect it's a well run operation.

That said, YSCB is about as GA friendly as YSSY.

bankrunner
22nd Oct 2013, 12:12
I'm seriously considering building an aircraft sometime in the next few years.

It's tempting to ship it over to the States in a container once I've completed it, put it on the N-register in the Experimental category, get the FAA "Repairman's Certificate" so I can maintain it, then ship it back home where I'd continue to fly it around as a US registered aircraft just so I can give the Skull and his mates the finger :ok:

Ex FSO GRIFFO
22nd Oct 2013, 13:35
Well Dick, here's another response to your 'hook'...

Can you please tell me why CASA is making everything I do and enjoy, a Criminal Offence of Strict Liability...Penalty 5,000,000,000 Penalty Units..??

That's a 'surefire way' to E N C O U R A G E Aviation in this great country full of hard working Australian Families......NOT!!

Did you 'encourage' this type of approach during your tenure..??

NO Cheers:yuk:

Horatio Leafblower
22nd Oct 2013, 14:15
So Griffo,

Just to be clear - you enjoy flying without a licence, with an expired MR, without a medical?

Can you point out to me something specifically which, now a strict liability offence, you previously enjoyed doing? :confused:

kellykelpie
22nd Oct 2013, 19:13
This looks to be a clever merge of threads.

The point here is that one explanation for part of the drop in hours is more complex and changing rules. Think now of the wording "strict liability penalty" etc. It scares people. Who wants to make a mistake now? When I learned to fly, mistakes were part and parcel of the adventure of learning to fly. Now it appears to be policed.

Creampuff
22nd Oct 2013, 20:26
Dick had nothing to do with the advent of strict liability or the number of strict liability offences in the aviation regulations. Nor did CASA.

It’s why governments get away with it. Ignorant punters are happier to shoot the messenger than learn the facts and comprehend the implications.

kellykelpie
22nd Oct 2013, 21:05
Whoa - hang on a minute! Dick asked "Why aren't people flying". I can only answer for me. These are some of the reasons I don't fly. Who's shooting the messenger? I note you're from the US - part of the gun lobby?

Frank Arouet
22nd Oct 2013, 21:33
Dick had nothing to do with the advent of strict liability

I concur with that statement. Strict Liability was "allowed" to be introduced because "somebody" purporting to represent the views of many, helped pull the pin on a "dis-allowance motion" put forth by The Democrats to prevent that sort of thing.

Ex FSO GRIFFO
22nd Oct 2013, 23:31
Of course Mr 'HL'....And you forgot to mention the unregistered aircraft, which I fixed up meself with a bit of No 8 fencing wire, and which may be 'old' but its still 'OK'....

On the other hand it COULD well be because a pilot MAY still have the 'Blue' version of the local VTC /VNC in his / her bag, and the 'Brown' one is now the 'current' version, despite the fact that in the last 4 or 5 editions, NOTHING has changed......so, although the information may still be current, the 'method' of display is not, therefore, if one is ramp-checked.....

Just another form of non-common sense...

And yes, I for one am using a very well done local electronic product which IS the current 'brown' version.
However, the regs do say....Penalty 50 lashes....

:eek:

gfunc
22nd Oct 2013, 23:38
To my mind, the slow decline of GA is linked to lack of younger people taking up flying as a hobby.

Think about your local flying club/school/group, take out the those pursuing commercial licences and think about how many folks you typically see under the age of 30. I would guess it's not many.

I don't think that the cost is a huge block on those wanting to learn to fly - I gather it costs about the same in relative terms as it did years ago, albeit with our form loving friends in Canberra taking a bigger and bigger chunk. Perhaps the gigantic mortgages people take on is taking away their disposable income?

Also I don't think that general interest in aviation has waned - look at the attendance at airshows for example; no huge crash (pardon the pun) in numbers.

Coming to Australia five years ago, even with an overseas licence in hand, I found it very difficult to know where to start. In this day and age you would have expected schools to have a good internet presence with lots of info - sadly most looked like an 8 year old school project, with less information. Things are a bit better nowadays, but people expect the relevant info to be easy to get to online. I went to a couple of schools at MB in person only to encounter empty reception desks or cold/unknowledgeable staff. I knew exactly what I wanted, but imagine being a beginner - there is a huge hurdle to climb before getting a TIF!

Once you get a TIF it will probably get the rattiest old aircraft pulled from a run-down hangar with the least experienced instructor who spends the entire time dreaming of driving a QF machine. It is probably enough to put most people off for life!

Think about those who persevere to get their PPL - for a few hundred dollars you might get to fly to an empty airstrip and back, but make sure you've got it back by 2pm for the next guy!

To maintain GA we (pilots, clubs regulators) need to attract more young PPLs. Aviation must be made more accessible - the world has changed rapidly over the last 10, 20, 30 years but GA has not. It's a case of evolve or die I'm afraid.

Gareth

Shagpile
23rd Oct 2013, 00:33
Pretty simple, I'll be discouraging my kids from entering aviation for all of the above reasons. Plus I'm not forking out $100k+ for them to get a $45k job. What a terrible investment.

cattletruck
23rd Oct 2013, 00:39
Alan Kohler of ABC news finance report put up this lovely graph last night

http://2.static.australianindependentbusinessmedia.com.au/sites/default/files/styles/ak_graph/public/kohlersgraphs/2013/Oct/bankers-love-it-when-we-borrow.png?itok=mR9MvP3q

If only bankers did more flying hours to offset the rest of us doing far less rather than shoveling their money offshore.

Dick Smith
23rd Oct 2013, 01:17
Peterc005 - the graph is an aggregate of the private and business flying hours data sourced from the following government web sites:

HERE (http://www.bitre.gov.au/publications/ongoing/files/General_Aviation_Activity2010.pdf)or http://www.bitre.gov.au/publications/ongoing/files/General_Aviation_Activity2010.pdf at Page 15

and

HERE (http://www.bitre.gov.au/publications/ongoing/files/General_Aviation_Activity_2001.pdf)or http://www.bitre.gov.au/publications/ongoing/files/General_Aviation_Activity_2001.pdf at Page 3

presented over a 5-year rolling average.

Jack Ranga
23rd Oct 2013, 01:38
mmmmmmm,

Why are flying hours down? Which would translate to less people learning to fly?

How about:

Having to fill out 3 complicated forms, spelling mistake made: not sent back & not informed of mistake, sits in pile with owner not aware that it's not being processed. Meanwhile school advises student to slow training down until student licence and medical processed as solo can't occur until then. You continue to bang your students head against a brick wall for the first 2 months of their flying career, great first impression huh?

How about:

It costing at least $500 a year to maintain medicals, documents, ID's etc BEFORE you fly one hour.

How about:

35-40 year old aircraft being the mainstay of flying school fleets.

How about:

Continuing and never ending expansion of regulation & strict liability for an activity that should be fun.

How about:

Chicks don't dig pilots anymore (they know it's a scummy job with low pay & low prospects) therefore robbing a pilot of another source of return on their investment.

That's just a start ;)

Ex FSO GRIFFO
23rd Oct 2013, 02:49
Jeez Mr R,

You NEED to get yerself a newer bigger watch....??
And dont ferget the 'magic' 4 stripes.....

:p

Paragraph377
23rd Oct 2013, 03:22
And while industry does it tough, CASA executives do e on caviar and fine wine. Nice salaries and bonuses boys. I couldn't find any reference to pot plant expenditure?

http://www.casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_assets/main/lib100173/ar1112_p5.pdf

Dick, do you recall what the budget for pot plants was when you were there?

peterc005
23rd Oct 2013, 04:03
Hi Dick, thank you for the reference.

Why use a five year rolling average, rather than a simple yearly total?

For the years 1991 to 2001 I used Table 5, for 2000 to 2010 I used Table 4 from the respective publications.

I couldn't get the figures in your graph and are possibly missing something obvious.

There were some interesting stats there.

The drop in Agricultural hours from 106k to 20k in a 2002 was too great to be real, but I note that the rise in Aerial Work seems to match this suggests that over time maybe some flying hours has been reclassified from Ag to Airwork.

From 1991 to 2010 the figures show that Total GA flying has increased from 1755 to 1848 k hours. There are slight dips in this curve that appear to correlate to general economic activity.

Here are the figures I have:

Year Private Business Training Agriculture Aerialwork Testferry Charter TotalGA RegionalAirline TOTAL
1991 261.7 240.3 452.6 101.3 282.7 29.7 386.5 1,754.7 209.2 1,964.0
1992 255.4 204.2 421.6 80.9 256.7 28.2 403.9 1,651.0 223.4 1,874.4
1993 265.3 212.3 436.8 89.2 278.8 28.2 393.4 1,703.9 227.7 1,931.6
1994 256.9 198.5 419.5 78.9 301.7 25.9 424.4 1,705.7 238.3 1,944.0
1995 251.0 189.1 430.6 94.5 302.4 28.2 465.7 1,761.3 243.1 2,004.4
1996 261.6 182.8 444.9 117.4 285.7 26.2 480.4 1,799.0 246.2 2,045.2
1997 266.7 176.0 449.5 128.4 307.4 27.6 483.7 1,839.3 272.4 2,111.7
1998 263.0 163.8 478.5 139.2 312.4 26.6 494.6 1,877.9 273.2 2,151.1
1999 275.9 153.3 448.8 126.3 306.6 26.6 504.6 1,842.2 277.3 2,119.4
2000 248.5 136.3 413.6 115.0 296.9 27.9 476.7 1,714.8 335.7 2,050.6
2001 261.7 144.9 406.2 106.7 294.2 23.2 466.0 1,702.9 298.0 2,000.9
2002 270.2 142.2 410.8 20.9 327.1 70.8 445.7 1 687.7 250.1 1 937.8
2003 239.7 143.4 420.3 21.2 322.5 69.7 429.2 1 645.9 234.7 1 880.6
2004 247.2 143.0 352.2 22.3 312.4 86.5 481.4 1 645.0 251.4 1 896.3
2005 239.2 149.1 415.8 22.3 318.8 95.0 482.6 1 722.8 254.7 1 977.5
2006 227.2 144.1 424.0 21.7 337.9 61.7 478.4 1 695.0 241.5 1 936.4
2007 222.7 153.4 455.4 25.7 368.0 62.1 544.5 1 831.8 241.9 2 073.8
2008 228.4 151.7 485.6 21.8 373.4 78.2 518.6 1 857.7 214.7 2 072.4
2009 239.5 148.5 497.1 16.4 363.1 73.3 469.7 1 807.5 204.1 2 011.5
2010 241.9 140.0 436.3 18.2 400.3 103.8 507.3 1 847.7 228.1 2 075.9

dubbleyew eight
23rd Oct 2013, 04:47
crop dusting is a dead industry.
farmers now have computer controlled boom mounted microsprays that do a better job.
the latest have video camera control that reduce fertiliser application in the greener areas of a paddock.

crop dusting is an approach to the application of materials to paddocks that has largely been replaced by technology.

I dont think the figures reflecting the decline in activity too difficult to believe.

pokeydokey
23rd Oct 2013, 04:50
cost of privatisation a contributor?
At an airport that lots of pollies fly into (and out of), about 10 or so years ago there used to be 6 or 7 companies / clubs offering flying lessons. There are now none - in a city of 350,000. Makes it just that bit more difficult to even get started.

I've posted before about people spreading the lie that there is no training in Canberra and it really gets me very annoyed. Canberra Aviation has been training out of Canberra Airport 7 days a week since February 2012. They employ 4 instructors (3 of them straight away from Brindabella) and train mostly with Piper Warriors but also have a 172XP and Cirrus online.

It started as a satellite base of Goulburn Aviation but they do considerably more training in Canberra due to the ridiculous costs and lack of facilities at Goulburn Airport.

ZAZ
23rd Oct 2013, 08:20
Yes our club archer is $180 p/h
So i went out and bought an IFR Cherokee with 1300 hours to run on engine for $50K and fly for $100 per hour
No provision for engine it will still be running or at worse on condition in 2016 when Im grounded (Im 67 +)
So go buy or wet hire

peterc005
23rd Oct 2013, 11:59
@dubbleyew eight -I don't doubt AgFlying hours have dropped, but to go from 106k to 20k hours in one year doesn't sound right.

Jabawocky
14th Nov 2013, 02:44
could their data sources be flawed? :E

Ex FSO GRIFFO
14th Nov 2013, 03:13
HAS my safety been enhanced.......???

HAS it cost me less....???

Do I fly more...??

:{:{

fireflybob
14th Nov 2013, 03:38
Meanwhile over in Blighty here general aviation is being killed by the change of rules caused by the European Aviation Safety Administration!

Reams of bureaucratic nonsense and increased costs - many still flying clubs will stop training - very sad with the loss of a lot of experienced hands.

PLovett
14th Nov 2013, 05:14
general aviation is being killed by the change of rules caused by the European Aviation Safety Administration!

..............and these are the rules on which our much derided regulatory reform program is based. :suspect::uhoh::yuk: