The system will not allow it..... [Archive]

GROUNDHOG

18th Oct 2013, 10:31

Booked a flight with BA with connection over YVR to an AC jazz flight. Advised yesterday the connection had been rescheduled 45 minutes later so we now have an over 4 hour wait at YVR - but there is an earlier flight which I know has space on it. Can I swop please?

No the system is showing no W class seats on this flight ( the aircraft is a dash 8 all economy) but ring Air Canada they might help. I rang and they said they would if Ba contacted them, although later said they couldn't as there were no seats of that class available in the system..

The flight I am on is currently fully booked and the one I want to switch to now has an offer price available and space, it is actually in Air Canada's interest to allow me to switch, they will get higher revenue for the seats I am vacating plus I will not spend two hours in the exec lounge eating all the food and drinks.

No the 'system' will not allow that change, you can book seats on the earlier flight but we cannot refund the seats on the later flight - the 'system' does not allow that either.

Whatever happened to common sense and customer service,can the system not be overidden, so I sit and watch an empty aircraft going where I want to go with space on it and then wait another two hours for the next one which I know is full ... just because the 'system will not allow it"....!

THE WORLD HAS GONE BONKERS!

I feel better now.... !:mad:

DaveReidUK

18th Oct 2013, 12:47

You can rest assured that Jazz, like any other LCC, will have done their sums.

They will have worked out that it's worth taking the occasional notional revenue hit in order to preserve the principle that passengers don't get to change their bookings for free, they either have to buy another ticket or pay a fee to transfer their ticket to another flight.

Whatever happened to common sense and customer serviceCustomer service always takes second place to the bottom line. As for "common sense", the airline's strategy makes perfect sense from their point of view. :O

davidjohnson6

18th Oct 2013, 12:48

The 80:20 rule says that to get a system to do most things you want is fairly straightforward. Getting it to do the unusual cases and exceptions is much much harder and costs far more cash to build and test the system.

Yes, Air Canada might have been able to change their system to handle situations like yours, but the IT cost would be so much larger that it's probably cheaper in terms of management time and monetary cost, to just put up with this and deal with other more important issues elsewhere in the airline

Smoketrails

18th Oct 2013, 13:57

Groundhog,

On arrival go straight to Jazz desk and ask if you can hop along on the earlier flight. Chances are they wil let you board the earlier flight without charge. Problem is your luggage might stay behind if all has to happen in a short time span...

Capot

18th Oct 2013, 14:07

My first confrontation with a computerised reservation system took place in 1974 (+/- a year or so, memory fades) when we installed a hard-wired system around the network of the airline I worked for. It was hosted on the BA system, whose name I forget.

As a Regional Manager with a Supervisor login code, I was enabled/empowered to override the system when necessary to avoid the "Computer says No" situation, when it was simple common-sense to see that the computer was not offering the best solution for a passenger, because it was impossible then, as now, to foresee and programme for every possible eventuality.

The problem we now face is that people are no longer trusted to act sensibly, as we were, so that the over-ride button is a thing of the past.

I ascribe this to the dead hand of B-schools, and the unimaginative, p**s-poor, "managers" who leave them able to set up a spreadsheet and make nice, fatuous presentations, but with no discernible trace of leadership in their bodies. You know, the sort of people who rule via emails because they lack the ability or confidence to lead properly.

Almost the first thing a leader needs to know is how to trust people under him or her, and let them get on with it.

GROUNDHOG

18th Oct 2013, 17:30

Capot you have it precisely. I go back a fair way in the business, to the 1960's and as an ex commercial and managing director of an airline fully understand how the system works. My argument is exactly as Capot says, in the old days it was possible to make allowances, do the logical thing, give customer satisfaction simply by manually over riding the booking system, no longer is this the case and it is not just in the airline business.Today it is all by the book, here is another example.

AC told me "You will have to go back to your Travel Agent and ask them to change the flight".... " I didn't book with a Travel Agent, I booked direct with BA as I always do".... " Sorry Sir, the system says you booked through a Travel Agent, so you must have done"....They still refuse to accept I booked direct with BA just because the screen says I didn't, to the point of calling me a liar, absolute billhooks.

There was always a big joke that one days computers would rule the World, it is not looking so funny now. The machine is now managing the operator and the operator is not trained, hasn't the authority or ability to change things.

As to the revenue calculations, the flight I want to leave is the most popular of the day and only has a couple of seats available at £441. The one I wish to switch to the seats are on sale at £139, now in my book that means AC would make more money than before......

I have now asked to go top of the standby list for the earlier flight in case there are last minute cancellations or no shows, let's see if I even get a reply to my request for that. Next time I will take the ferry.

PAXboy

18th Oct 2013, 18:06

Passengers
Consumers
Customers

Debate ...

"Best value for our shareholders"
"Best value for our passengers who will then give best value to our shareholders." (aka Look after your customer and your customer will look after you")

Debate ...

I've worked in service industries since I was doing Saturdays in a department store when I was 16. One of the reasons I'm self-employed is that I hated not being able to help my customers.

Here's a simple 'case study' for the 'Children of the MBA line' ;):
My car is a niche brand and needs attention from those who know it. I am able to drop in unannounced (as I did last week) and ask the proprietor to listen to a funny noise that had just started two days earlier.

He stopped working on a car and listened. "Water pump's going, we need to change that quick". Obviously he didn't charge me for the consultation and I happily paid the cost of going back a couple of days later, paid for OEM parts. I sat in the 'lounge' and worked on free wi-fi and tea until it was done.

Sometimes, he's changed headlamp bulbs and said, "I'm busy at the moment and put it on the slate for your next service" So I'm away in minutes.

THAT, ladies and gentlemen is Customer Service. Irrespective of the computer or not! that kind of service costs more than going to a Kwik-Fit but I cheerfully pay for that service, knowing that my car is in best condition (I only have one car and rely on it for work). People will pay for good service and his good service ensures that I go back AND reccomend him.

To use the vernacular: It's shopkeeping 1.01

GROUNDHOG

18th Oct 2013, 18:19

Quite right and having paid over three thousand pounds for two Transatlantic tickets with two national airlines that was the level of service I was expecting...I could have booked Canadian Affair on Air Transat for half that amount but paid extra because I wanted the best.

( Nothing wrong with Air Transat by the way, I am sure they offer excellent value for money and efficiency!)

I did incidentally offer to buy two more seats on the earlier flight, they were happy to sell them to me but couldn't refund the seats on the later flight..... you guessed it the system doesn't allow for that, it is a non changeble non refundable ticket!!

PAXboy

23rd Oct 2013, 01:48

Friend of mine had a contrasting experience with the 'computer says no' approach of the airlines.

She was going to France last week with a car load of family and friends. They had booked the Eurotunnel train for 19:50. They found traffic on the M25 lighter than expected and arrived at the Channel Tunnel over an hour ahead of schedule. "Good evening madam, would you like to wait for your booked train, or take the next one?"

So, at no extra charge, they immediately drove to the departure ranks and left a full hour ahead.

That appears to be one of the ways in which Eurotunnel are separating themselves friom the airlines. Their customer is very happy and they also free up a space on a later train - in case they get more early arrivals, or a late booking.

It is so simple.

Gibon2

23rd Oct 2013, 08:02

To be fair, easyJet has a similar policy - if you show up early, you can transfer to an earlier flight for free (assuming there is a seat available). In cities where EZY flies from more than one airport, you can even get an earlier flight from a different airport - still free. The only restriction is that this policy only applies to the return leg of a booking, not the outward leg.

As PAXboy says, this is a win-win for carrier and pax. Strange that it's not more widespread - and even EZY doesn't exactly advertise the option: you have to dig deep in the website to find it.

Hartington

23rd Oct 2013, 09:54

You can look at this from a different point of view.

When I was a sprog travel agent back in the very early 1970s I was asked to book a group from Geneva to London. I got onto BEA(!) who said they couldn't do it.

The person who had asked then travelled to Geneva and visited BEA there. They sold the required seats in the form of little groups of 4 (which was the maximum they could sell in one transaction - 4 at a time). They didn't ask "groups" in London. Effectively they overrode the system, completely messed up any kind of yield control that BEA ran in those days and quite possibly oversold the plane.

If airlines are going to make money they need control over the sale of their product. And that can mean that we sometimes can't get the seats we want.

Now think about this. BA operate an early flight London Paris every day. Most weekdays that plane will fill with business people who book late. Therefore, if you try and book a cheap seat on that plane you probably can't; they'll only sell seats that command a higher fare. And it gets worse (or better) because not all seats (at the same fare) are equal. The decision whether to sell that seat can also depend on who is asking. They may want to retain seats for people connecting from their own (or other oneWorld partners) flights. Air Canada may be doing something along those lines.

davidjohnson6

23rd Oct 2013, 14:47

Paxboy + Gibon - Hartington has a point.

In the past I've had to fly from Heraklion to London. When booking I saw there were 2 flights over an hour apart. The 9 pm flight to Luton was my preferred flight but more expensive. The 11 pm flight to Gatwick looked grim but was cheaper.

I paid for the later and cheaper flight. The night before flying to the UK I saw on the web Easyjet still had seats on the earlier flight available. Next evening, went to airport at 8 pm, had booking changed to earlier flight for free and got flight I originally wanted but at the lower price.

Now when booking Easyjet flights to the UK, if a later flight is cheaper I always book it, in the knowledge that no shows mean there are usually a few seats spare. Sure there will be times I get caught out, but the booking on the later flight guarantees me passage to London anyway. Great way to save cash on airfares, but trashes Easyjet's yield mamagement system.

Easyjet should offer a 'catch an earlier flight home for free' only when it's in the airline's interest (ie later flight is [almost] overbooked or last minute sales are likely) - otherwise too easy for people like me to game the system

PAXboy

23rd Oct 2013, 16:42

Yes, agree that Hartington's example is perfectly fair. Those of us who travel often or have an interest in commercial aviation know that - many of their tourist/holiday pax don't. However, that is how markets develop and when competition CAN work in favour of the client.

Dan Winterland

24th Oct 2013, 15:14

Little Britain - Computer says No! -7- Lourdes - YouTube (http://youtu.be/EAuMdEcQtow)

rmac

26th Oct 2013, 03:18

@ Dave Reid

"You can rest assured that Jazz......will have done their sums"..

No you can't !

I'm in private equity and we invest in a broad spectrum of industries and more often than I like so called "professional management" present sums to us that are total tosh...

An aircraft seat is a "perishable" item. If it departs empty a revenue opportunity is lost, as indeed is a flexibility opportunity to reduce pressure on a heavily booked later flight and reduce the risk of paying denied boarding compensation. In this day an age it should be easy to develop software which tells you that you arrive at a solution which benefits both airline and passenger.

But it does appear that the airline booking systems are still rooted somewhere in the 1970's

Capot

26th Oct 2013, 10:16

The whole point is that in the 1970's we could use our common-sense and if you could fill a flight sector with people booked on a later flight who wanted to go earlier and were ready to go, that's exactly what we did, up until the moment that an LMC was no longer possible. The accompanied dash through emigration to the gate was not a rare occurrence.

Once the doors were closed, we worked on filling the seats on the next flight on that sector that had suddenly become available for sale.

Win-win, I think the term is.

Now all I see is poorly trained puppets at the check-in who are too scared of their own shadows to do anything unusual. They are scared with good reason because doing anything unusual might cost them their jobs, regardless of the fact that it may please a customer and be potentially profitable for their employer.

The blame lies fair and square on modern middle and senior management, and their toxic mix of poor leadership, lack of knowledge and front-line experience, and enslavement to emails and spreadsheets. In short, they have all the characteristics of people with "MBA" after their names.

Hotel Tango

26th Oct 2013, 14:05

Now all I see is poorly trained puppets at the check-in who are too scared of their own shadows to do anything unusual. They are scared with good reason because doing anything unusual might cost them their jobs, regardless of the fact that it may please a customer and be potentially profitable for their employer.

The blame lies fair and square on modern middle and senior management, and their toxic mix of poor leadership, lack of knowledge and front-line experience, and enslavement to emails and spreadsheets. In short, they have all the characteristics of people with "MBA" after their names.

100% spot on, and I think most of us know that now. I often wonder if this trend will ever be reversed, or will just get worse?

DaveReidUK

26th Oct 2013, 17:19

They are scared with good reason because doing anything unusual might cost them their jobs, regardless of the fact that it may please a customer and be potentially profitable for their employer.You're forgetting the fact that their employer is already profiting by virtue of being able to pay half what it would cost to hire employees who possess common sense and initiative.

PAXboy

27th Oct 2013, 01:21

Hotel Tango100% spot on, and I think most of us know that now. I often wonder if this trend will ever be reversed, or will just get worse? I think it has to get worse before it get's better. Why? because it is not yet bad enough.

One classic example is Continental in the USA. Read Gordon Bethune's From Worst to First.

Generally speaking, humans have to get to a VERY low ebb before they make things better. The two catalysts are usually money and/or death. In the airline world, death is very expensive.

GROUNDHOG

28th Oct 2013, 18:46

I do understand airline economics, I used to be the managing director of one so I guess I probably should. The point in this case is that the flight I am on is the lost popular and is selling at a higher yield as it is the last flight of the day and the one I want to switch to is selling at a lower yield... it is in AC's INTEREST to let me switch!

Anyway I have e mailed and asked if I could go on the top of the wait list for the earlier flight in case of no shows, no reply of course, there probably isn't a system for that either.

ExXB

28th Oct 2013, 20:37

I think the guys in AC's Revenue Management / Payload control may have a handle on this.

The flight in question is open in higher classes but closed in lower for a reason other than to irritate you. This could be because this flight has a history of last minute bookings and/or go-shows (at full/higher fares) or for taking the spill from earlier flights which have a history of being overbooked, or ... ????

By all means go to the gate and see if they will accommodate you, and let us know what happens.

davidjohnson6

28th Oct 2013, 23:41

Groundhog - it's only in the airline's interest to let you switch if one of the following happens
1) Later flight reaches maximum overbooking level at least an hour before the earlier flight is due to depart
2) More people than there are seats are expected to turn up for the later flight

Just because the later flight commands a higher fare, does not mean that it's worth letting you switch. If by letting you switch flights, the later flight ends up with one of more empty seats, the airline has not gained but has lost potential revenue by
a) not forcing you to pay up some cash to switch flights
b) weakened the airline's public claim that higher priced tickets are worth more because they can be changed, meaning you and your family no longer see reason to spend on a changeable ticket when a non-changeable ticket is cheaper.

Ignoring the BA / travel agent issue, if I were working for AC I'd give you a flat "Sorry sir / madam, if you want to change flights you must pay the change fee" unless one of conditions 1) or 2) held

James 1077

29th Oct 2013, 04:12

But it was Air Canada that changed the flight originally - which meant that the earlier flight becomes a viable option, having not been pre-change.

It would therefore seem like good business sense to tell your passenger, put out by a change that Air Canada has made, that the flight that they were booked on is now leaving 45 minutes later; but they will happily put you on an earlier flight / put you on standby for an earlier flight.

GROUNDHOG

29th Oct 2013, 09:19

I would be quite willing to pay a change fee. I would be quite willing to pay the appropriate full fare and be refunded the lower fare. I don't even mind standing up all the way it is only a fifteen minute flight! No options exist.

This post was not intended to 'have a go' at Air Canada but a demonstration of how the 'service' element of flying today has disappeared especially among the bigger airlines.

If I make the crossing with Harbour Air on the seaplane they are totally flexible, they carry more passengers than AC on this route - no use this time though they do not fly at night. They will fly packages across, you can take excess baggage down on an earlier flight ( it is only an otter so space is limited) etc etc.

I ran a commuter airline, I also spent the best part of 25 years juggling charter flights their yields and contribution. In all cases reservations were able to look at individual cases and use there initiative. There was always a telephone number the passenger could call and talk to someone who had the power to at least look at the position sensibly, even if the answer was no.

Today so often there isn't.

I can see the difference between a small airline that carries thousands, not hundreds of thousands and the practicalities in that.

We have lost something along the way and as others have posted earlier nothing will change until it becomes intollerable.

I will let you know what happens 'on the day'.

Peter47

1st Nov 2013, 18:08

There can be issues with IT. A few years ago BA cancelled a LHR - AMS flight I was on but I was unable to change my booking online. In desperation I popped into a BA office (it was a few years ago). The agents quickly booked me onto the previous flight and remarked to her colleague that the system was trying to charge me £50 to change a cancelled flight which may have been why I could not do it.

On another occasion I was upgraded on BA following being bumped a few years ago and remember the front line agent saying that he had to wait for a supervisor in the office to action it on the system.

With Delta it used to be up to the agent (the one after baggage reclaim said no, the one at the gate said yes). It may well have changed now - I don't know.

IT is getting more sophisticated as a result and load factors are increasing (typically 85% and 95% in peak months). As mentioned airlines trust the IT rather than staff now.

PAXboy

2nd Nov 2013, 18:15

If I recall correctly, in the late 1970s (or early 80s) the Volvo motor company changed their production line.

Instead of having small groups repeating one section of manufacture, they trained the small groups to make a motor car. Each group started with (effectively) a box of bits and worked with the car all the way through until it drove off the end of the line. Then they started again.

As a result, staff morale hit the roof and the quality of the vehicles improved greatly. The cost increased. As I understand it, when the company was bought (by Ford, I think) that all changed.

I sit to be corrected on any of the above as i could not find any online reference to it.

Whether true or not - you instinctively know it makes sense. People want to feel part of something, not just part of a production line.

One of the biggest problems that I saw from the late 1980s onward (still present) was the idea of making the departments of a large company more autonomous. On paper - it sounds like a good idea:

Be responsible for your own budget
Be responsible within your team
Make sure your team does 'the best'

But what I saw developing was:

Save money and penny pinch so as to get a bonus, even if the department suffers
Be responsible ONLY within your team. Don't worry about the team who handle the process before you - or those that take it on from you. Just do your thing and if the other departments don't like it? Try to ensure that it's their problem.
Compete with everyone to show the MD that you are best and forget what the rest of the company is doing.

Subsequently, the company breaks up and departments forget about their neighbours. Profits fall and it's all the fault of the staff NOT the honcho who introduced the scheme, or those that implemented it.

With an airline (as in any large company) the folks who took the original booking felt as much a part of the company as those who put the bags on the carousel at the destination. Everyone inbetween wanted to make the complete system work.

Today?

Shack37

3rd Nov 2013, 15:18

Rather than start a new thread I'd like to consult here about my own "system won't allow it" problem.

I made and had confirmed a booking with AF Bilbao to Aberdeen via CdG.
Then received email from AF requesting API personal/passport information.
Entered the AF website to supply same and had the data rejected because of the dates of birth.

It seems when making the booking I had a senior (pun intended) moment and ticked the "Adults" box instead of "Seniors"

My wife and I are both EU citizens, she Spanish, I UK and living in Spain. Is API required and does it matter that we are seniors and not "adults"?

I have tried their modify your booking page but it does not allow for change of age group.

Hate to arrive at check-in and meet with complications.:confused:

pax britanica

3rd Nov 2013, 15:58

Cannot help feeling that those of us not on the flight deck have as earlier indicated to deal with children of the MBA line compared to the magemnta line. Same process same problems
Airline booking sophistication occasionally works equally bizarrely in your favour though.
Some years ago I used to go to huge every 4 years trade fair at the conference venue next to Geneva airport. The event outgrew the cities hotel capacity so lots of people flew in for a day and left the same day.
Airlines of course realised this and priced accordingly. However around the turn of the century recession appeared in the telecoms industry and the edict came down every where that thou shall only fly economy.
So now BA who operated 767s to GVA for this week racked up the Y class prices sky high to the point that they were higher than J class and made a fortune because the plane is 85% Y anyway and was going to be full. So close to the day of travel down came the J fares cos that cabin otherwise was empty. I was tipped off about his by a BA friend and we had a comfortable trip other ways with several more senior people in the company jammed in Y. of course there were accusations we had committed the heinous sin of traveling in J but the US based CFO just laughed and said we had just been the smart ones. So sometimes the system does you a favour-not often tho

ExXB

3rd Nov 2013, 17:37

Rather than start a new thread

Yes, both the UK and Spain require APIS information. I'd be surprised if either had a 'seniors' category, and surprised that AF would have that in their system.

A child travelling alone, or with only one parent, might raise issues but I don't think a senior would.

Shack37

3rd Nov 2013, 18:15

ExXB

Many thanks for your reply, It's a couple of years since we visited the UK and I couldn't remember if it was required then. When I made the booking I didn't notice a seniors but when the APIS page rejected the birth dates I went back and tried a pretend booking and sure enough, there was a seniors category.

Guess I'll try phoning tomorrow to avoid any possible hiccups when checking in if it won't let me print out our boarding passes online.

OverRun

3rd Nov 2013, 19:18

Paxboy,

The following search terms in Google will unlock the support for your recollections:

emery volvo self managed

The first 2 links (after the sponsored Volvo ad) cover it nicely.

Shack37

5th Nov 2013, 14:40

Just a brief update on my previous post about submitting APIS data on the AF website. Prior to calling their help desk I tried again submitting online and the information was accepted.
Many thanks AF.

fdcg27

9th Nov 2013, 00:32

It has been my experience that the agents at the airport have a lot more flexibility than do those on the phone and most websites offer no flexibility at all.
I'd inquire at the airport when you depart.
If that fails, you can almost certainly get this change at no charge on the ground in Canada, although checked bags might be a problem.
A confident and friendly attitude will solve many travel problems.
Way early at the airport and wishing for an earlier flight than the one on which you're booked?
Just go to the counter and ask. If they have seats available, you'll probably get the change at no charge. Done that.
Potentially stuck in the Carribean (really awful, I know) during the northern winter due to weather to the north?
Just go up to the counter, smile and speak calmly and you'll get a seat on another flight to your connecting airport, while the many who rant and rave are put on standby. You can smile at them as you board and wave at them at the gate as your aircraft is pushed back. Done that.
Potentially stuck in Newark (and that really would be awful) because of weather?
Just persist in pushing the agents handling rebooks to find you an interline that will get you to your destination ASAP. Smile and remain calm, but don't accept the first offer of a flight three days later on their airline.
We then got an CRJ home the following day and spent the night in a really decent chain hotel across the field. Had a decent meal and a Guiness or two. The shuttle ride to LGA which involved passing through the Holland Tunnel and Chinatown was also a hoot.
Upgrade to the front of the airplane at minimal cost?
Ask at check-in, and if that fails, ask again at the gate. It is better at check-in, since that saves you the cost of paying for checked bags in the U.S., but a little space is nice either way on flights of anything more than a couple of hours. Done this a number of times.
Bottom line is that it pays to ask a real live person you're looking in the eyes.
They have more flexibility in accomodating passengers than many seem to think.

PAXboy

9th Nov 2013, 01:58

That might be the case in the USA, fdcg27. One of the methods of dealing with requests that the airline do not want to deal with is this. You seek a change or an upgrade, a reroute - whatever it might be and you DO ask politely:-

At check-in, "You'll have to ask about that at the gate"
At the gate, "You'll have to ask about that on board"
On Board, "They can only handle that at check-in."
Game, Set and Match :D

Done that - and more than once!!

CelticRambler

9th Nov 2013, 13:47

Whatever happened to common sense and customer service ...
"... many airlines don’t have customer service anymore, they have departments of customer compliance" Mike Boyd of Evergreen at the 15th Annual Boyd Group International Aviation Forecast Summit

"You can rest assured that Jazz......will have done their sums"..

No you can't !

I'm in private equity and we invest in a broad spectrum of industries and more often than I like so called "professional management" present sums to us that are total tosh...

:D The level of bankruptcy in the aviation sector tends to indicate that dyscalculia is particularly high amongst airline managers.

If I recall correctly, in the late 1970s (or early 80s) the Volvo motor company changed their production line.

Instead of having small groups repeating one section of manufacture, they trained the small groups to make a motor car. Each group started with (effectively) a box of bits and worked with the car all the way through until it drove off the end of the line. Then they started again.

As a result, staff morale hit the roof and the quality of the vehicles improved greatly. The cost increased. As I understand it, when the company was bought (by Ford, I think) that all changed.

I sit to be corrected on any of the above as i could not find any online reference to it.

While unable to confirm or deny the above, the converse is certainly true, as exemplified by the disastrous "streamlining" of production at Waterford Crystal in the 1990s. There, "family groups" of glass-blowers, apprentice cutters and master craftsmen were separated into more efficient manufacturing units. Of course, one benefit to the company was supposed to be a reduced workforce so a reasonably generous voluntary redundancy package was offered to one and all.

On paper, it first looked like a great success: the workforce was reduced by about 30% and the savings were considerable. Until it became clear that most of that 30% was made up of master craftsmen who promptly set up shop on their own account. The now efficiently industrialised Waterford Crystal could not respond to being attacked in every one of its traditional markets because it was left with a cohort of partially-trained apprentices and eventually collapsed into a banal, largely out-sourced, label.

Airline revenue/yield management is frequently held up as a Sacred Truth, but it appears to be entirely founded on the 1970s needs of buiness travellers. In reality, survey after survey shows that this group of passengers typically makes up around 15-25% of overall seat sales. Any other retailer would concentrate their efforts on catering to the majority and adapt their product accordingly.

Capot

9th Nov 2013, 19:09

concentrate their efforts on catering to the majority and adapt their product accordingly I think the LoCos were ahead of you there......

fdcg27

9th Nov 2013, 22:43

Very good point.
Anyone who doesn't want to give you an honest answer can always defer you to another level.
Still, it never hurts to ask and to persist, since you'll often get the answer that you want.

PAXboy

9th Nov 2013, 23:01

One of the most reliable contradictions in upgrade policy of BA in the 1990s and 2000s was revealed by two friends of mine. One lives in the USA and the other in the UK.

They discovered that mileage earnings [at that time] were higher for those that lived in the other country. Each registered for BA Exec + Miles (as was) at the other's address and used email to update each other.

The US friend earnt more miles when travelling 'home' and the UK friend more when travelling 'home'. Further, our US friend, then in her early 60s and rececently widowed, got given upgrades to C - in 8 sectors out of 10. This on BA back to LHR and when going 'away'. She got these without asking. She NEVER asked but was given the upgrades time after time.

Funny old world. :}

ExXB

10th Nov 2013, 07:13

PaxBoy one of the Cardinal rules of the international airline industry is:

Rule 1: One does not sh*t in one's backyard.

Meaning that rules are closely applied in the airline's home country, but less so in offshore markets. For good reason, if you think about it.

fdcg27

10th Nov 2013, 14:38

How clever!
Could this still work?
Does it work for any other airlines or alliances?

PAXboy

10th Nov 2013, 15:51

Oh indeed ExXB I could see how it made sense for the carriers. My guess is that they have stopped it now, as it is too easy for folks to see such gerrymandering.

CelticRambler

12th Nov 2013, 15:45

I think the LoCos were ahead of you there......

Not from where I'm sitting. The LoCos have only enforced a sorely needed financial discipline on the passenger sector, but they're not offering anything original. The best performing LoCo (to the best of my calculations) is our old friend in the blue-and-yellow corner who brings in an average profit-per-customer of just 6€31, more than double that of Southwest. The highest figure I can find in Europe or the US is Lufthansa at 9€60 and of course these positive figures must be offset by the basket cases like AirFrance and Flybe

Given the effective monopoly that relatively few players have in this sector, those figures are ludicrously small, especially when one considers how the number of airports offering scheduled commercial flights is reducing all the time. Obsessing over CASMs and load-factors blinds airline managers to the revenue they are losing by encouraging passengers to spend their money elsewhere. The walls of the silo remain intact.

Gulfstreamaviator

12th Nov 2013, 15:55

I remember reading that DAN AIR in UK made 1 pound sterling profit on each seat sold, on their charter flights.

BUT

The contract with the charter insisted that DAN AIR received ALL the revenue fro Duty Free sales.

Nothing changes.

GROUNDHOG

13th Nov 2013, 09:11

I can vouch for that, I was commercial director of a well known charter airline back then and indeed on many flights the only profit was the duty free sales. We always worked on a target break even of 80% load factor ( charter remember so a fixed seat rate) but frequently on a 130 or 148 seat 737 the profit would be in the last five seats!

Back to my original post the irony is that I could now rebook the whole trip to connect to the earlier flight except as that is now offered by BA as a connection except I am sure they will not be able to do that either.

We will just go to the AC desk on landing in YVR and hope for no shows, problem being these flights are nearly always full and it is the week before Christmas which makes it even worse.

This is a trip we make often and in future will night stop at YVR then go over next day with either Harbour Air on the otter seaplane ( great little company) or just pick up the hire car in YVR and go by ferry. Might even do westjet over Calgary but AC have screwed me up one time too many now.