ASIC – what measurable safety benefit?

[Dick Smith]

I have just received notification from CASA that I have to renew my ASIC. As my pilot friends, John and Martha King, in the USA don’t require anything equivalent (in the USA you simply need your pilot licence and any photographic identification, say, a driver licence), I wonder what the real safety advantage is here?

In the time I have had an ASIC I have never been able to work out how the security is improved by having it. In my recent flight to New Guinea in my LongRanger, I flew up the east coast (what a nightmare). I usually have to land the LongRanger well away from the terminal for refuelling so there is no chance of getting a cold drink or going to the dunny. Even at Rocky (I think it was) I saw a military helicopter parking near the terminal and asked if I could park there – the Controller said “no way, that’s a military apron!”.

If the home of “September 11” with fifteen times the number of aeroplanes doesn’t require an ASIC, should we consider removing the requirement here and then spending the money on something that will really improve safety - like more flying hours for private pilots?

I look forward to your thoughts.

[megle2]

Other than a discount at times on terminal food / coffee no advantage at all

[Ultralights]

the only measurable safety benefit is the financial safety of the issuing agency.


even Millitary ID's are no longer acceptable. its asic or nothing :ugh:

[john_tullamarine]

even Millitary ID's are no longer acceptable. its asic or nothing

Unless things have changed in the past week, that doesn't seem kosher to me.

Can you cite evidence to support your statement ?

[dubbleyew eight]

the question in parliament at the time was how do we know that we don't have terrorists among the australian pilot community.
to meet this parliamentary requirement all pilots had to undergo security screening and the Air Side Identification Card was morphed into the Aviation Security Identification Card.

ok we all passed the security checks.

the legislation required a pilot to hold the card. so I did.
the legislation never required the card to be renewed unless flying to particular airports. I have never renewed mine.

the apparatus surrounding the ASIC is utter paranoid delusional nonsense.
it needs to be removed, deleted and never revisited.
it is utter balderdash.

[VH-XXX]

It goes without saying Dick that you are 100% correct.

One might think that it would be required at Tullamarine or Mascot for example as it proves if you have the right to be airside, but it doesn't. The ASIC is useless in this regard, has no magnetic strip or chip, so they need their own security system anyway, so the only people that might possibly need it, don't need it anyway!

A pilots licence with photo issued by CASA would be ample.
Is the answer an AVID? We already have these... so perhaps that's the answer. Unfortunately it won't be a cheaply available card and will still cost what it does now I can only assume.

If they want to scan our person as we fly out of Paraburdoo or some other tin-pot airport, that's fine, we show our licence, get scanned and move through. We don't need an ASIC to do this!

Has it improved safety? Doubt it, because access to any security controlled airport is controlled by personnel, not by the card. It's not an access card so it has no value.

The police security checks are a joke also. Convicted criminals possess ASIC cards so what is the point? I know of a rapist (time served) and an arsonist (time served) that have ASIC cards, so I struggle to see who they are stopping from obtaining them by use of the security check....

[Dick Smith]

Can someone estimate what the cost would be each year. Does anyone know how many are issued?

[dubbleyew eight]

my nipper tried to get access to the aircraft through the security screening.
"you'll have to go through full screening."
"I'm the pilot of the aircraft."
"sorry you'll have to go through full screening."
(he was wearing full company uniform)

so the nipper walked out of the terminal around the side to the GA pilots gate punched in the secret 'known only to pilots gate code' and walked out to the aeroplane.

security it seems is 100% populated by wankers.

[Frank Arouet]

The original concept, (and I have the pamphlet), was to have an ASIC for access to the security controlled portion of an airport which I understood included the terminal area and fuel installations and any other sensitive areas as designated. By this reckoning a tin of paint outlining those areas would have alerted pilots where they could or couldn't go.

Then DOTARS offered airport operators cash to improve safety and stipulated that ALL the airside was to be considered a security restricted zone.

One is wise not to stand between a Local Government official and a tin of cash and we all know what happened.

Fences that ran nowhere or for a few meters either side of The Oodnadatta track airport terminal worked to keep kangaroos in and the whole scheme showed similarities with the education building revolution put together by more recent government.

The AVID/ ASIC idea was ridiculed, cash was taken and "boogey boards" and bag chuckers came to the front page of newspapers.

And people, the only way you'll get rid of it is to figure a way the politicians and bureaucrats can think it was their idea and the original proponents can walk away without loosing face and with rare dignity.

The ball is in your court..............:* Good luck!

[dubbleyew eight]

frank it was one of labors stupid ideas and we voted them out.
smoke screen enough?

[Horatio Leafblower]

I can't believe the blase attitude of you, my fellow aviators.

I think the value of the ASIC program speaks for itself - since the ASIC was made mandatory there has been not a single aeroplane flown into a tall building in Australia.

(...except of course poor old Tim in Orange :8 ).

[peterc005]

I wouldn't mind an ASIC so much if it was good for five or ten years, but the hassle of getting a new one every two years is way too painful.

In the past I've kept using the old one for a couple of years beyond expiry because no one checks the date anyway.

[aroa]

The people who thought up the ASIC, and those that benefit from issuing them will tell you its been a great success. See !... since its introduction NO pilot has used the aircraft/been involved in a terrorism event. :ok: So it works..!!

But equally, in the past decades prior to ASIC intro there were none either.

Equally bizarre is that folk who drive 20 tonne trucks don't have to have one.

And in the States, home of 9/11 the GA pilot fraternity were asked to be part of the security solution, not deemed to be part of the security problem.!

But alas the Rum Corps in Regulatastan couldnt handle the US approach, it would give them no control, hence yet another bureaucracy; growing and wasting... as they do.

OK if anyone does have to have a security check, how about a continuous clearance card...invalidated on any breach*.
Renewals is just a $$s pick up to pay the wages,bonuses, perks etc.

* should you plunge yr aircraft into side of a building and break a few windows this card will be cancelled.

To get more flying hours and experience for PPLs...the lesser costs of RAA and self maintained aircraft is the only solution. VH PPLs are just shot down because of the costs of insurance, maintenance shops and parts mark-ups...hence RAA, SAAA and etc.

Basic maintenance of your own aeroplane should be a part of learning to fly, just like in the good old days when maintenance DIY was a must.

Perhaps its time to revisit and revise Schedule 8 to allow more to be done by owners/ PPLs to help keep costs in check. Its not rocket science.

[Wally Mk2]

Like all forms of security it's only as secure/good as the weakest link. The ASIC is just a bureaucratic machine that keeps people employed & makes the idiot rule makers feel good therefore justifying their shallow jobs. It has zero effect where security is concerned it only causes grief & suspicion!

Take Tulla for EG. This place is a joke!!! Has miles of chain-mess fence around it of which a good proportion is obscured by native trees/plants put there for aesthetics when it was built. Any fool can get Airside with just a cheap $2 pair of wire cutters at night as it's pitch black in places to the Nth of the drome well hidden behind trees:ugh:Dozens of cars park right opposite these accessible area's on the grass/dirt off the side of the road awaiting their friends/family to arrive on a flight, no one would know who's who in cars out there of a night time, terrorists would have a field day!

Here's a typical day that had me really bemused. At YMAY one fine sunny day years ago doing a non urgent retrieval in the old Beech. Had to park right outside the new terminal (new back then). The KFC machine stuck out like a dogs dick & I couldn't be mistaken as I/we had to wear 'monkey suits' with the appropriate badges showing whom I/we where. I finally got into the terminal to use the loo's & buy a drink awaiting the patient & para's. The security goon/s could obviously see who I was as they couldn't miss the noise of the KFC machine when I arrived. I found my way accidentally into a 'secure' area trying to get back out to the plane, result??................I was 'caught' & showed zero respect despite having the oll knowing all useless ASIC dangling from my monkey suit, yep the ASIC sure is useful......for food discounts only !!!!:ugh:

Don't get me started on the total idiotic requirement to go thru screening on the way to the crew briefing room!:ugh:My fold-able umbrella in the bottom of my fright bag (which periodically get pulled out for inspection) has huge potential to Mame & kill providing I throw the cockpit crash axe out the window as that could really cause an injury......to me!!


'Dick' this subject comes up from time to time (the usefulness or lack thereof) of the ASIC. You of all people should know about such matters than us mere mortals who have had very little involvement in aviation at the bottom.


Wmk2

[rioncentu]

Dick

Very valid question. Someone show us the safety benefits !!

Dick you are just the man to lead a campaign to have this ridiculous impost of time and money removed. Or as someone else said at least made renewable every 5 or 10 years so the impost is not so bad.

Pay the $216, pay for the passport photos, go bug a JP - Every 2 years. For what?

All a complete waste. Every pimple face 16 year old at Maccas at the big terminals has one. Somehow the "security" of having an ASIC is diluted IMHO.

Cheers

PS - Don't expect ANYTHING in Rocky !!

[thorn bird]

Since when have CAsA, Dotars or any of them been interested in "safety".

Their only focus is $$$$$ and how much of it they can fleece us poor suckers out of. Safety benefit??.haw haw, I'll bet you it was never even discussed.

Love to know who the shareholders are of these companies that process our ASIC applications or provide airport security, which in itself creates a security risk. May answer why they exist.
Try terminal two Syd. 6am most mornings, the sheep pens in front of the Xray machines creates a target rich environment for your friendly local suicide bomber to wipe out three or four hundred all penned up nicely in a tight compact group, and jeez he could get into the middle of that group without passing any form of security.

[85trx]

What I don't understand is having to get a jp to resign for my passport and drivers Licence which haven't changed in the last two years to be re issued with a new card not to mention the time that I wasted running around trying to sort all the paperwork out

[Frank Arouet]

it was one of labors stupid ideas

Credit where it's due, but I think one J Anderson was up to his neck in the implementation, but I could be wrong again............ as usual.

Over to you peterc0000000005:E

[Andy_RR]

Well folks, we now have a federal government that is looking to cut the cost of bureaucracy, write to your MP and the transport minister and express your thoughts on the matter. I don't think they read PPRuNe much.

[LeadSled]

ASIC – what measurable safety benefit?Makes a few pollies and bureaucrats feel safe --- because they can tell any inquest/investigation that they have "done something" --- so whatever the catastrophe was --- it was not "their fault".
Tootle pip!!

[Frank Arouet]

write to your MP and the transport minister and express your thoughts on the matter.

Usually when somebody suggests this, there is no measurable way of seeing if it works or not. May I suggest the poster write a pro-forma letter where one can cut and paste putting their details and posting off to their MP. A letter header should make all recipients aware that there are more than one author involved.

Cutting the cost of bureaucracy and no measurable safety benefit may be dot points without offending opposites.

[Creampuff]

Forget your MP and the Minister.

Write to the non-major party aligned Senators (including Senators elect).

[Frank Arouet]

OK but someone do a pro-forma.:)

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

In the time I have had an ASIC I have never been able to work out how the security is improved by having it.

Oh come on Dick - take the blinkers off! :E

Have we had a terrorist attack since the introduction of ASICs? :confused:

I rest my case! :ok:

Dr :8

[VH-XXX]

All this happens three days after sending off my renewal !

Regarding the cost of management Dick... Do you think that we can assume that it is self suficient given that a contracted mob in Merimbula do most and RAA-Aus do some also (at a lesser price by the way)?

But given other examples of mis-management, perhaps CASA are topping up the program but it will be difficult to find out that figure.

I would suggest there was a huge implementation cost that will never be recovered also.

An FOI request perhaps?

[dubbleyew eight]

Julia Gillard was the politician who beat the government of the day into creating this asic bull****. I think listening to her rabbit on in parliament about pilots and the threat they posed started my deep and abiding hatred of the woman.

[Creampuff]

Good wind up.

Not a great wind up, but just over the margin of good.:rolleyes:

[Cactusjack]

It's a crock. Go take a wander around almost any major Australian airports GA area. You will see all and sundry coming and going, wandering airside, no ASICs or VIC's and often with no 'ASIC holder' in close proximity. Then you have dodgy fences easily breached, fences with crap stacked up against them or trees growing through them.
My point. The system simply isn't secure, yet talk to the airport operators and they will tell you that the clowns from the OTS want you to show them how you have risk assessed threats from bio terrorism and MANPADS (don't laugh), at Townsville or Broome airport!!! Yeah right, as if :ugh:

[sprocket check]

There you have it Dick, truly a passionate response from your fellow aviators.

Give a pollie a point to score in the removal of this disease and it will happen.

The reason we have these and the rest of the bureaucratic crap imposed on aviation is because we accept it without so much as a pip.

Maybe an optional response is for everyone to hand their ASIC in?

Isn't the ASIC requirement just an expression/consequence of involuntary servitude?

[zanthrus]

Twice I certified my own ASIC and used 10 year old photos.

I got younger each time.

Never questioned by the issuer. As long as you don't reuse the same photo it seems your ok.

I did it as a joke and I was very surprised when it passed.

Security my arse!

[Fizzyone]

While I share everyone's pain re asic renewals the fact is its in the regs and not going anywhere.
Also regardless of what you fly ra Aus ga ect you must have a current asic to exercise the privileges of your pilots license
So if you fly without one your operating illegally

[Old Akro]

ASIC was a solution looking for a problem. Or rather a government bureaucracy looking for a role.

This year marks my 40th anniversary flying. In 40 years the number of incidents of aircraft theft / sabotage that I can recall can be counted on the fingers of one hand. There was never a justification in historical fact.

At the time, I read the risk analysis paper prepared by the Australian public service that was used to justify the introduction of ASIC's. And I read the equivalent US document. The Australian paper was about 2 pages and concluded we needed fences & ASIC cards. The US document went through each sector of GA individually and concluded that aside from screening student pilots so that terrorists can get training to conduct a 9/11 event and putting in some controls on agricultural spraying so it can't be used to spread biological agents, that there was little risk in GA and it didn't justify the cost & burden of additional measures.

An argument could be mounted for ASIC's if it was an integrated system that meant something. But try and use your ASIC as proof of identity anywhere outside of an airport.

Furthermore, the airport fences that we have paid millions of dollars for are a farce. Most (if not virtually all) can be circumvented by undoing bolts with pliers and a shifter; or getting the gate code which have become easily available; or just walking further down the fence where it turns back into 3 strand wire.

ASIC is an impediment to legitimately getting around and it raises costs. But there is not a shred of evidence that suggests that it is either required or delivered any positive results.

Recently I met a refueller at a significant regional airport that services a significant level of RPT whose ASIC had been out of date for a number of years. He continued to wear it without question. Exactly who are we kidding?

How many ASIC cards are on issue? Qantas has 33,000 employees. CASA say there are 60,000 pilots licences of various grades. Its not hard to imagine that there are 100,000 cards on issue x $200 each. That's a $20m impost on industry for no demonstrable benefit.

[Horatio Leafblower]

You all seem to be ignoring the fact that September 11 has re-occurred exactly 12 times since 2001.

I want to know what the government is doing about THAT.

[VH-XXX]

Never questioned by the issuer. As long as you don't reuse the same photo it seems your ok.

Yes it is a joke. I used the same photo for 6 years.

[rioncentu]

I have used the same photo previously but this time got pinged for it.

So yep, of for new photos and another JP got hassled. For what benefit? I told them I have the same shirt and glasses...........:ugh:

[Cactusjack]

Oh dear, have we all forgotten 1985 and the mad Yugoslav at the old Brisvegas airport? Hell, this incident would be well remembered by the Townsville and Brisbane refuellers! A refuellers worst nightmare of somebody pinching his shiny tanker and holding the world to ransom! How dare he do that? The madman could have found the supply of Vodka minis and Hustlers behind the cabin seat!
Besides only fuel companies retain that privilege of holding others to ransom :E

The loony commandeered a tanker and a whirlybird that day (jeez, that could have been your chopper Dick?). I was on shift that day and recall taking up a prime viewing spot from one of the freight sheds, later taking a spot upstairs in the nice dark cosy bar and scoffing a few ales with some of the boys before being booted out of the terminal by the sheriffs!

Good times, great days :ok: Would an ASIC have prevented the shenanigans that day? Doubt it.

[Wally Mk2]

I wonder now that Skippy made it all the way to the Melb drome pharmacy without any formal ID ( I know none is needed but where are the security goons anyway?) whether the ASIC will extend to all species on this planet (Pollies not on the list of course) And where is Mat Hammond? (4 those old ennuf to know whom I'm talking about here):)
Poor Skip having to endure that madhouse just to get some medication after being hit by a car somewhere around the drome, what's this world coming to?:E


Wmk2

[Volumex]

Don't forget this monumental security failure in 2007 The Chaser enters APEC Security Zone (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Chaser_APEC_pranks)
ASIC is even less effective than these clowns.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/67/Chaser_fake_apec_pass.jpg

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

An ASIC is not a means nor guarantee of entry. It is only an indication to another that you have passed certain government mandated background checks. You still require legitimate reasons to be where you want to be. Many people think that just because they have an ASIC they can go wherever they want on an airport but that is simply not so. The government for it's own bureaucratic reasons (and I certainly don't agree with the whole ASIC rigmarole) has made the requirements for holding an ASIC to be just one part of access to certain areas.

[Frank Arouet]

Also regardless of what you fly ra Aus ga ect you must have a current asic to exercise the privileges of your pilots license
So if you fly without one your operating illegally

Rubbish!

Who told you that?:rolleyes:

[Arnold E]

Well, I dont know about you, but I have NEVER been asked for my ASIC despite wandering around the tarmac of an international airport. The trick is to wear the cloak of invisibility ( IE, high vis vest ) and no-one will bother you. Save your money.:ok:

[Wally Mk2]

'AE' I get asked for my ASIC every time I go thru the goons security screening, without it you simply don't get to yr A/C so I'd be interested to know how you get thru the screening without it so I to can short circuit the utterly stupid system!.


Wmk2

[VH-XXX]

Things are a tad slacker over in SA Wally.

[joe_bloggs]

I work for an EMS outfit.

Landed at a regional airport recently and re fueled on the apron.
Was granted access to the terminal from airside by the refueller.

When we were ready to leave the refueller was busy so asked "security" to be let out through the gate.

Only if you queue up with the passengers and go through screening.

So I grabbed my crew, did an about face and walked straight out of the terminal.
Walked another 50 metres to where the fence actually stopped where it met the road, stepped around it onto the apron.

Absolute bloody joke!

[Arnold E]

so I'd be interested to know how you get thru the screening without it

Through a hanger usually.:E

[YPJT]

Bloggsie,
check ya PMs. That situation shouldn't have occurred.

[OZBUSDRIVER]

Nothing has changed as to the attitude to or the need to carrying an ASIC. I remember asking a question regarding ASICs years ago. Back then site specific and only a need for airline crew and specific tarmac personnel. How things change! Horse bolting and all that...if ASIC was a requirement in the US prior to the event...it would not have mattered a fig. Each person would have still had a legitimate reason to be in the US to learn to fly. What made these creeps stand out was their training standard and odd questions...all reported and duly ignored!

Dick, if you want to make a noise, get in the ear of the AG. Not only are we treated as guilty to proven innocent but we have to pay for the privilege ad infinitum! Francis, a proforma will not work. You need to get a sheet at every office of every aeroclub or flying school petitioning the government EXACTLY what you want changed or rescinded. Hand written names and addresses with absolutely no repeats. Then, we get the minister to read our petition in the house on a Tuesday morning when parliament sits...and that will be where the matter ends.

I fear the only way is to get in a politician's ear or enough of them,or, the Attorney General to convince them there only ever needs to be one entry into a database. If there is ever a change in status then...tea and bickies with the Fed Police or someone who prefers more clandestine disappearing acts. Other than that, a once only application and issue of a aircrew only ID and have ASIC revert back to what it was originally intended...site specific identification.

[Frank Arouet]

OK that's probably a start, but there are, (I heard the other day), only 18,000 active pilots in Australia, max 25,000 going by a mates ARN and interpolating.

Creampuff reckons it's a waste of time appealing to them. And he's not wrong, just ask him. (He's only wrong sometimes).

There are 20+ million people in Australia, half of them vote, and up to that 20+million can and do fly the airlines. Some are a bit scared at the best of time.

Now I have been told if you make them more afraid to fly you will be arrested as a terrorist. I can image this happening if I hand out pamphlets at Mascot or Tullamarine. (and me without an ASIC and all that).

Alerting them would definitely be a waste because being more afraid would make them approve of the ASIC.

It would be nice to get all them on side a bit more though.:(

[Capt Fathom]

'AE' I get asked for my ASIC every time I go thru the goons security screening

Why do you need an ASIC to go through the screening point.

Passengers don't need an ASIC to go through!

[Creampuff]

Creampuff reckons it's a waste of time appealing to them. …Not quite what I said.

It’s a waste of time appealing to people who don’t care that you’re inconvenienced and have to spend money on a ‘security’ system that’s merely a façade to make punters ‘feel’ safe.

The glimmer of hope is the non-major party aligned Senators. Explain to them how stooopid the ASIC system is, and there is a slight chance of getting it changed. Same with anything else relating to aviation regulation and accident investigation.

[Wally Mk2]

"CF" pax have a boarding pass to access the goons security farce, drivers need an ASIC as anyone can dress as a monkey & get thru.
I'm not sure how you get thru without a boarding pass or ASIC but feel free to let me know as I'd love to sail thru there rather than being almost naked!


Wmk2

[Peter Hugh Pigott]

security checks should be made when we get our licence and at renewal that should be sufficient .ASIC cards are an expensive waste of money and time we should get rid of them.Pete P

[Frank Arouet]

Australians should be exempt from security checks. There are enough checks and balances in everyday life to pick out the loony's and psychologically challenged. Flying schools should vet students before first solo. As should DAME's.

A clean record should be enough to assume the person be given the right to exercise the privilege's of his licence.

Hitler never charged for identity cards, Mao never charged for identity cards, Stalin never charged for identity cards, and Mugabe never charged for identity cards. (he makes police out of the failures and pays them).

We have Aliens from war torn Country's who know no better than the rule of the gun, checking Australians at airports and taking their toothpaste from them. Some of these fit a particular profile.

The whole concept of a card preventing terrorism is flawed.

The whole concept of taxing pilots to prevent terrorists is flawed.

The whole concept of regional airport security fencing is generally flawed.

The concept of "profiling" is not flawed, but is politically incorrect.

Ameliorating the existing arrangements is like being shot in the head with a .22 and not a .308. You're still dead.

[kaz3g]

Q: What are the security requirements?

You need a valid ASIC if you require frequent access to a secure area of a security controlled airport that has Regular Public Transport (RPT) operations. This is a requirement of the Aviation Security Regulations 2005.

If you want to use your CASA issued flight crew licence and you do not require frequent access to a secure area of a security controlled airport that has RPT operations, you must apply for a background security check and you will be issued with an AVID provided your checks are successful. This does not apply if you are under 18.

[kaz3g]

Just setting the record straight for those that want to blame Labor and Gillard for this debacle... Prime Minister Howard was defeated in November 2007, and the Regulations introducing the ASIC were promulgated in 2005.

It was Howard who was so affected by the World Trade Twin Towers and it was Anderson who was the responsible Minister (the same guy who gave our airports away under shonky leases).

Kaz

[Tinstaafl]

How can anyone question the safety benefit of ASICs/AVIDs? There haven't been any terrorist attacks in Oz on aircraft since they were introduced. Not only that but they must also be responsible for the lack of rampaging elephant attacks, nuclear missile explosions, and Earth killer asteroids because there haven't been any of those since the card's introduction.

[Ushuaia]

Wally Mk2: you're confusing security screening points with boarding gates. People going through screening points are simply being checked for prohibited items prior to entering the security-screened area, which includes the part of the terminal between the screening point and the boarding gate. They are not being checked for entitlement/authority to actually board the aircraft. That happens at the actual boarding gate: a check of a boarding pass or an ASIC/company ID. Beyond THAT point staff need the ASIC.

So no, you do not actually have have your ASIC on as you go through a security screening point. That may be contrary to how some security staff act. I recall there is something in the regs that refers to this, or alleviates this, or something - it's such a non-issue, really, that I'm not going to check up on it.

[Frank Arouet]

You need a valid ASIC if you require frequent access to a secure area of a security controlled airport that has Regular Public Transport (RPT) operations.

And that secure area can be outlined with a tin of paint and minimal fencing. The rest of the airport need not be ALL secure area. This was the concept as touted by DOTARS initially, but as usual was corrupted by cash handouts to Local Government.

BTW, it was Anderson who didn't want anybody in the air while his bum was there and he was the architect of the embryo that developed into the debacle that we see today.

[Old Akro]

You need a valid ASIC if you require frequent access to a secure area of a security controlled airport that has Regular Public Transport (RPT) operations.

All the airports I go to that HAD the blue line now require an ASIC for access to any part of the tarmac. Mildura & Moorabbin are prime examples.

The really funny thing is that if you go to a primary airport, the ASIC isn't worth anything since you have to be escorted by a security person anyway.

So, its worthless for what it was intended and required where it wasn't intended.

[Old Akro]

PS the only real value an ASIC has is to get a discount at duty free when I leave Australia ass a passenger.

[PinkusDickus]

The government has created a monster that has to be fed. Our argument for their abolition would be countered with the loss of jobs in the administration of issuing ASICs.

[QFF]

The government has created a monster that has to be fed. Our argument for their abolition would be countered with the loss of jobs in the administration of issuing ASICs.

So the ASIC does have a security function after all - Job Security!:E

[Wally Mk2]

'USH' they are one of the same for me, that's what I am alluding to here. To get from the street to my 'office' I am unable to do so unless I flash the ASIC @ the only check point.


Wmk2

[Spotlight]

Okay Wally, to expand your thinking a little. Do you ever passenger in uniform?

[YPJT]

All the airports I go to that HAD the blue line now require an ASIC for access to any part of the tarmac. Mildura & Moorabbin are prime examples.
The magic blue line came about as a means of delineating an apron between screened and non screened services. Compliance used to be an absolute nightmare when you a. had to tell the pilot and pax of a C172 that they and there bags had to be screened, b. do it with a straight face and c. Hand back to them any prohibited items that they may have had in their carry on. Some CASA aerodrome inspectors started getting worked up over the line as it was not compliant with MOS139. :ugh:

The regs were changed in Nov of last year that removed the requirement to screen non RPT / Open charter aircraft that departed off the same apron except for the Cat 1 airports. So nothing should stop you going to a non RPT aircraft provided you do not mix with screened persons, baggage or the aircraft itself.

Still a long way to go and I think you will find that even OTS are sympathetic to many of the regs that we are stuck with. The act and regs were drafted over a relatively short period post Sept 11 and unfortunately a one size fits all approach was used. I am sure that Creamie, Leadsled et al will agree with me when I say that legislative change is not a simple process but it can be done. You have to be prepared to slog it out and put up with some setbacks along the way.

Before anyone takes their shot at me for being some sort of apologist for aviation security. I do take it seriously however I also look at the best way to achieve compliance, a realistic security outcome and minimal inconvenience to industry.

[bankrunner]

One is wise not to stand between a Local Government official and a tin of cash and we all know what happened.

I'd be surprised if there's a single regional council out there forced to do "security" upgrades that didn't end up out of pocket in the process. Most of them are flat out keeping the runway and taxiways up to scratch with the money they have, and only bother at all to keep their once or twice daily RPT service.

The police security checks are a joke also. Convicted criminals possess ASIC cards so what is the point? I know of a rapist (time served) and an arsonist (time served) that have ASIC cards, so I struggle to see who they are stopping from obtaining them by use of the security check....

That's the thing -- it's a "security" check, not a criminal background check. It's a essentially a check to make sure the person seeking the card isn't already on an ASIO sh*tlist because they spend too much time at the Lakemba mosque or something.

That said, already possessing a Top Secret security clearance (the process to obtain which is infinitely more thorough than anything involved in the ASIC process) doesn't get you a free ride either. Mates of mine who are serving ADF members with such clearances have had to go through the same process as everyone else to get their ASICs.

[Jack Ranga]

Legislative change happens fairly quickly when they want it to

[ZAZ]

Had one since beginning
Never been stopped ramp checked, often wear it wrong side up.
My mates is in glove box of his plane, never takes it out.

They tell me Mildura is savage and EN, never been asked.
Go to YPAD everyone wers an ASIC even the cleaner.

AVID?
what ever happened to the AV ID which without in theory you cannot exercise PIC priviledges, mine is aged and out of date in my old blue licence booklet.
It was supposed to be the be all and end all of security with its holographic stamp..

3c

[cattletruck]

Does anyone have some hard figures on how much ASICs cost the industry? A speculative $20m p/a has been bandied about, which would make the whole affair worth well over $150m since introduction.

...and all it has given back is discounted food to the lucky few that work at the big terminals.

If the ASIC security scheme was actually truly valid and worthwhile then it would have been introduced for free as its intrinsic benefits would have made it justifyable to the community at large. But to me it just looks like a rort.

[YPJT]

If the ASIC security scheme was actually truly valid and worthwhile then it would have been introduced for free as its intrinsic benefits would have made it justifyable to the community at large.
That Utopian world has long gone. Regardless of need or benefit, you want - you pay for it. Similar to another thread where there is lamenting about the bygone days when charts and operational docs were provided FOC.

:hmm: Don't know how much of a "rort" it is.
The Auscheck background from memory costs $99 for the ASIO, police checks. They actually make available detailed costings and were able to knock a few dollars of the price a couple of years back and certainly turn around applications a hell of a lot faster than AFP did when ASICs were first brought in. There are also card printing consumables and a specialised piece of kit that last time I looked cost in the vicinity of about $35,000. Someone also has to be employed to check the forms and chase up the 10 % or more that don't send correct ID documents or complete the form correctly. In a nutshell, no one who processes ASICs is driving around in Porches and flying first class around the world.

[cattletruck]

Regardless of need or benefit, you want - you pay for it.

That's the entire point. The perception is that there is little benefit, and what benefit there is is not worth paying for.

[YPJT]

Cattletruck, fair enough mate but regardless of the perception, we are well and truly stuck with these things unless you can convince the regulator otherwise. The best we could hope for are some improvements such as increase in the validity period from 2 to 5 years.

[OZBUSDRIVER]

The case could be made, now that pilots have been carrying ASICs for nearly ten years...how many adverse ASIO/FP findings have been found within pilot/aircrew holders? If the answer is zero then put to Attorney General the obvious over prescriptive and hugely costly regime wasted on processing ASICs for aircrew and revert to a once only entry and reapply validity of a once only issue of an AVID. Revert ASIC back to site specific ID handled by employer group.

[VH-Cheer Up]

I can't believe the blase attitude of you, my fellow aviators.

I think the value of the ASIC program speaks for itself - since the ASIC was made mandatory there has been not a single aeroplane flown into a tall building in Australia.

(...except of course poor old Tim in Orange ).

Wasn't Tim a CFIT? No tall buildings within miles.

[Wally Mk2]

'spoty' I try not to pax/go in my monkey uniform (hate it) but even if I do I have a boarding pass so an ASIC is obviously not req'd.



Wmk2

[Kieran17]

This petition was put up on change.org not too long ago trying to achieve the same result.

http://www.change.org/en-AU/petitions/australian-federal-government-remove-asic-cards-entirely

Only 1500 or so have signed it so far. Hopefully something might come of it...

[YPJT]

A five line rant was never going to change the legislation no matter how many signed it.

[OZBUSDRIVER]

Methinks someone with bottomless pockets needs to make an FOI request to the Attorney General's office with regard to the number of adverse reports returned on existing ASIC holders within aircrew ranks....Dick? Anyone? anyone?

[KittyKatKaper]

Looking at http://asio.gov.au/img/files/ASIO-Report-to-Parliament-2012-update.pdf
Page 19 says In 2011–12, ASIO completed 153,644 counter-terrorism security assessments, a 40 per cent increase on those completed for 2010–11. No adverse or qualified counter-terrorism security assessments were issued in 2011–12.Page 21 then says that in 2011-2011 there were 67,501 ASIC and 30,421 MSIC assessments.

Went through the available ASIO annual reports at ASIO » Previous Reports to Parliament (http://asio.gov.au/Publications/Report-to-Parliament/Previous-Reports.html) and picked out the specific ASIC+MSIC related figures.
2003-04 58147 checks, 0 adverse assessments, 0 qualified assessments.
2004-05 38466, 0, 0
2005-06 71733, 0, 0
2006-07 118118, 0, 0
2007-08 70084, 0, 0
2008-09 56266, 0, 0
2009-10 88367, 0, 0
2010-11 97922, 1, unknown
2011-12 138312, 0, 0

So., 1 adverse finding, after more than 735000 checks over 9 years, and we don't know if that would have been used at someplace meaningfull, ie an international airport instead of a GA airport like Birdsville.


That is just ASIO, the AFP probably use different assessment criteria, but in total, I still believe that the whole ASIC and MSIC regimes are political kneejerkarrie + total bull**** + empire building.