Being set up to be sacked. [Archive]

jimgriff

13th Oct 2013, 19:18

I have recently been suspended from work but expect to be back soon- nothing dodgy at all- but to " allow an investigation to take place".
I have learnt that some people have been 'working' on my computer (work owned) for some 2 weeks during my absence and lordy knows what they are doing.
I have warned that I am being set up to be sacked.
I can honestly state that there was nothing dodgy on the computer whatsoever when I left- but wondered if files could be 'backdated' onto my computer during my absence and then I get blamed and dismissed. If the computer clock and calendar is changed - is this the date shown as installation?
Is there any way to see when files were actually added despite clock etc being changed?
It might sound a tad paranoid- but I have worries.
Is there a way of finding out what's been looked at in the last 3 weeks?
Software?
Is there a way of finding what software might have been added and 'hidden'?

MS windows 7 os.
Thanks in advance.

defizr

13th Oct 2013, 19:26

I'm afraid it's quite easy to alter the timestamp of files using a version of the 'touch' command without needing to alter the computer's clock..

mixture

13th Oct 2013, 19:35

jimgriff,

I'm afraid you're just going to have to let events run their course.

The answer is "maybe, perhaps", but you probably don't have sufficient permissions on a work computer under your username to enable you to do the digging you need. Nor would any digging you do stand up in court because it would not be forensic.

By all means go for the employment tribunal if you feel aggrieved.

lomapaseo

13th Oct 2013, 21:56

Be sure and get the names of any that have been working on your computer (log-ins etc.)

If they all work in the IT dept then there is no need for worry anymore.

If the computer has been compromised allowing the company itself to get hacked, expect the investigation will go much further without your assistance.

Capetonian

13th Oct 2013, 22:00

I can honestly state that there was nothing dodgy on the computer whatsoever when I left-

I'm not accusing you of anything but there is something you need to consider. If there had been anything on the computer that (in their view) should not have been there, and you deleted it before leaving, there are still plenty of traces of it that the IT guys can find. Could you find yourself in such a situation?

Or did you mean that there has NEVER been anything dodgy on your computer?

Hopefully it's the latter.

lomapaseo

14th Oct 2013, 01:25

All the computers I ever took home from work had something dodgy on them at one time or the other that I wouldn't want IT to find. The best I could do was to keep a low profile so IT wouldn't have to dig deep other than a quick scan and delete.

Of course one could always accidently lose the computer.

I saw a high level manager get a new career assignment once when his computer froze up and IT had to dig deep to find the problem.

In this day and age I would opt to have two computers in my travels . One for work and one for my own use.

cattletruck

14th Oct 2013, 07:08

Maybe it's your anonymous PPRuNe account that's done it. Some work types just don't have a sense for anything and will be wondering why you don't post using your real name.

mixture

14th Oct 2013, 07:24

Booting from a USB forensic toolkit would be useful

Not legally admissible, or at least very much unlikely to be so without a great deal of hard work and supporting evidence.

Booting from USB doesn't prevent you writing to the hard drive, does it !

A decent IT department will block USB boot anyway.

As I said, he shouldn't play detective unless he knows what he's doing. Let events play their course and follow normal procedures (employment tribunal etc) if he feels aggrieved. Leave Sherlock Holmes to those with experience.

Bushfiva

14th Oct 2013, 07:46

It stops anything being written in the event log or registry. FOM.

mixture

14th Oct 2013, 08:59

It stops anything being written in the event log or registry. FOM.

Says who ?

You can write to the drive, therefore you can tamper with the event log, registry or whatever you like.

Booting off USB/CD whatever is in no way the same thing as a proper hardware forensic bridge.

dubbleyew eight

14th Oct 2013, 09:09

if you have never been sacked or retrenched the prospect of it is terrifying.
once you have had all this happen though it no longer holds any great emotion.

if that was happening to me I would walk away and get a job somewhere else.

jimgriff

14th Oct 2013, 18:27

BOAC

14th Oct 2013, 20:21

Jim - while the usual combatants squabble here, may I wish you good luck. Do you have a union representation?

exeng

14th Oct 2013, 21:36

Yes likewise Jim. I wish you all the best for the future. Whilst it may prove difficult to win the fight to keep your job, I can attest that this development may actually result in opportunities that are an improvement overall.

You will face stress but remember that clouds really can have silver linings.

Keep us posted.

Best of luck
Exeng

Capetonian

15th Oct 2013, 02:04

I've been fired twice. The first was on a trumped up excuse to replace me with the son of the country GM, an 18 year old youth who wanted to live in CPT, had no experience in the industry, and turned out to be a disgrace to the company. I got a good package of both remuneration and benefits, and went on to far better things.

The second was when I engineered being fired from a company in which I was utterly miserable, and I derived even greater benefits in every sense of the word from the situation. Subsequently they asked me to go back and work for them as a consultant, thus on my terms and conditions, enabling me to continue to enjoy the core activity but not suffer the politics, backstabbing, and bureaucracy which had soured the job.

As someone else said, once it's happened, it holds no fear. Turn it to your advantage.

PPRuNe Pop

15th Oct 2013, 07:54

I have warned that I am being set up to be sacked.

Unless the law has changed that would come under the heading of contrived dismissal. It matters not whether it is the company or one of their paid staff it still stands.

It will need clarifying but the perpetrator(s) could finish up at a tribunal and if proven could lose their job.

cattletruck

16th Oct 2013, 06:55

Would be interesting to see who warned you that you were being set up to get the sack. I think it's just employee speculation and nothing more as it is unlikely management would speak that way.

If the worst happens lodge a claim with the work tribunal straight away, you can always cancel later. If you do take it to tribunal you have to be really honest with yourself and expect both sides to come out slightly compromised, with the loser more compromised than the victor - that's how they operate. 14 years does hold significant weight at a tribunal if your record is clean.

In my sacking it came out in the tribunal wash that the HR manager got onto the phone to a lawyer straight away after a homo executive whom I've never seen or met decided he wanted to get rid of me. Of course the lawyer would say sack me as he would make a lot of money out of it - thereafter the rest was just a bogus charade. I received serious legal threats prior to the tribunal which I ignored. During the tribunal the lawyer was clutching at straws who if not attacking my personality would be looking at technicalities in the legislation - he even requested leave (delay) from the hearing. But representing myself I got 'em good and they coughed up loads of dollars - I made the 2% category.

Besides the win over 3 totally useless pieces of **** (lawyer, HR, executive), the experience was quite harrowing as I'm an engineer not a lawyer. I was always willing to drop the case had I found employment but my reputation had obviously been tarnished.

Sunnyjohn

16th Oct 2013, 08:06

The most (apparently) innocent things can come back at you. While working at College, I ran a work safety course which included safety wear and uniforms. I accessed nurses uniforms as part on the project and was banned from my work computer for a week!

GrumpyOldFart

16th Oct 2013, 15:22

I accessed nurses uniforms

Were they wearing them at the time?

:uhoh:

BEagle

16th Oct 2013, 15:48

Probably not - but he might have been.... :ooh:

Ancient Observer

16th Oct 2013, 16:56

jimgriff.

Good luck.

If it gets really hairy, do pm me. I've done much too much firing in my time, and can normally spot legal stuff vs unlawful stuff.
Plus, I've been fired twice, as has senior daughter. We get used to it in our house.

jimgriff

30th Nov 2013, 08:57

OK- me again- 9 weeks suspended now and so much illegality as to policy following and procedural errors etc it would be boring to list them here.
BUT-
They have now decided to hold a disciplinary hearing and it transpires that there are two images which are inappropriate on my PC that they are using as part of the disciplinary. There are one or two other issues which can be dealt with by robust and truthful argument- .
There images I hasten to add are NOT pornographic but not the kind of pictures (body piercing of genitlia(not erect)) etc that a civil servant should have on a work PC.
They are suggesting that I down loaded and e mailed them to my home e mail- which is used by my whole family by the way.
I can categorically state that I have never seen these two images ever before and have never downloaded such images- That is the truth.

I have never received the images on my home e mail either.
I guess there are a number of possible scenarios- Trojan/ virus /malware etc, Planted by a disgruntled boss?
My solicitor is writing to ask for a forensic analysis of the hard drive etc but the employer has not complied with any Freedom if info requests etc so far-
As they have been holding an 'investigation' for last 9 weeks they in my opinion should have been keeping a detailed log of who had been using the pc- am I right?
It is also strange that the dates of these so called downloads are after the control of all the server etc was handed over to one of the bosses to develop the website for the employers. Nothing has happened to that but it has all gone out of my control
Can Trojans etc actually do this kind of stuff without users knowledge?
I am very stressed and under strict medical attention for this whole thing and have lost over 2 stone with the worry.
I know that everyone in a similar situation says that they didn't do it- but I really haven't- I knew this could happen as you read in y first post.
Tribunals etc are not an option at moment and my solicitor is writing huge (costly letters) which I cant afford to pay for. We are using the kids savings to pay legal costs so far but that is running out.
Bottom line is that if I lose my job- I loose my house- I have no savings- which which to pay mortgage.
Any help would be handy.
Jimgriff

mixture

30th Nov 2013, 09:38

that a civil servant should have on a work PC.

This is a public sector issue rather than you and a private company ? You might find a newspaper willing to help pay your solicitors fees ! :E

My solicitor is writing to ask for a forensic analysis of the hard drive etc but the employer has not complied with any Freedom if info requests etc so far-

Your solicitor is asking for forensic analysis under the freedom of information act ? Time to change solicitor !

Depending what they've been doing with the PC it might be a bit late anyway, unfortunately. But hard to know without further info.

Can Trojans etc actually do this kind of stuff without users knowledge?

Trojans can do almost anything without the users knowledge, although the majority of trojans have a primary purpose of collecting personal information.

I wish you the very best, I really do, but there's very little we can do as its a bit of a needle in a haystack without knowing how your work IT is setup to make suggestions.

Do keep us updated.

cattletruck

30th Nov 2013, 12:49

All you have to do is deny you put the images there and ask them to clearly identify who did. The fact that they live on your computer's hard drive means nothing if your computer is networked.

Remember, the emphasis is for them to prove who put those images on your computer, if you don't know then you don't know, simples. 14 years working for this company is plenty to identify your character and if it's been good then that should count for a lot, otherwise it's a witch hunt which is also a question you are entitled to have answered as to why.

Regarding my own sacking, I just found out the HR manager responsible for it now works in a senior role in a government department servicing the general public. I have began a process asking whether she is a fit and proper person for the role and whether her own judgement is subject to gross discrimination as she had fabricated many lies in her written witness statement as was submitted during my court case. She aint gonna like it one bit but it serves her right - she made her own bed now she can sleep in it.

BSD

30th Nov 2013, 13:30

Just a thought; I bet you can find out when the images arrived on you pc. If they were "planted" then there is every chance the person wot fitted you up like, may not have known your schedule.

Might be worth a check - be a laugh if your schedule established an alibi for you and you could call on witnesses to say you were not online at the time.

Good luck.

BSD.

mad_jock

30th Nov 2013, 14:16

There images I hasten to add are NOT pornographic but not the kind of pictures (body piercing of genitlia(not erect)) etc that a civil servant should have on a work PC.

I don't know when I had the task of being the porn police at a local authority which had just implemented a PIA proxy blocker which blocked the user until they explained themselves. It was a 30min admin role to unblock the retired doctors in sexual health. It was only solved when I blocked the local football clubs website before some special tickets came on sale as per official policy on none council business with high traffic loads. Which then got me access to the head of council (well he came steaming round the door swearing) and he authorised them to be exempt from the proxy server. As he put it "John was my wifes gynaecologist for 25 years the man deserves a Victoria cross" HR were not happy from a policy point of view.

I wish you all the best, the more I hear about office politics in the Civil service the more I think the whole thing stinks.

Mike-Bracknell

30th Nov 2013, 16:17

Thanks for responses so far.
It might be worth noting the following:

I have to have my job to pay mortgage- no job- no house.
I have a young family.
I cant just walk into a job that pays as well as this. I have been in post for 14 years.
I have no savings so cant fight them or employ IT forensic service. Its a stand alone PC not a laptop- we don't have an IT department.

I would suggest that:

1) Under the 'innocent until proven guilty' tenet, it would be the company that would need to employ an IT forensic service rather than yourself.
2) Any findings they come up with that form any part of a case against yourself should therefore be easily refuted unless they DO employ a forensic service.
3) In many cases, it doesn't necessarily matter what they find as to whether your job is in jeapordy or otherwise, as unless it's blatant misuse you won't get to hear about the reasons (unless you ask the questions and they're open about it all, which they're unlikely to do if it relates to subject-matter in which they're not expert, such as IT).
4) Have you signed a computer use policy as part of your employment? as if you don't have a proper IT dept that important aspect could possibly fall between the cracks. Any dismissal would normally depend upon non-adherence to that policy....which, if you haven't seen/signed one, is a bit of dodgy ground for the employer.

/Have done this from the employer side too many times.
/It's depressing how some employers try to hide behind technology instead of doing proper employee management themselves.
/All IMHO.

Further advice:

- Each file that is written to your hard drive has 4 datestamps. Some are easy/trivial to change, whereas others are considerably beyond the expertise of most users.
- If the PC in question is not solely for your use, and there are others who are capable of logging into it (even if on the same login), then the employer will be facing an uphill battle to prove that you were (a) logged in at the time, and (b) actively at your computer performing the task of downloading the images. For instance, you could have stepped away from the computer to make a cuppa, and someone with a grudge could have downloaded the images and then whistleblown.
- Timestamps of file creation/access are likely to be the key to any 'successful' dismissal of your services here, and if the computer is a standalone with no other IT infrastructure then the chances are that the timestamps retrieved will not be accurate or even bear any resemblance to accuracy.
- If they are alledging you downloaded the images and emailed them to your home email account, request the following:
1) The email address they believe it was sent to
2) The exact date and time stamp on the email
3) Whether the email went through their email systems or not
This should enable you to (a) find out whether the email address IS your home email, (b) find out whether your home email address service actually DID receive the email, (c) find out what time and date they believe the alleged offence occurred on, and (d) find out a lot about their method of investigation

As Mixture says, it sounds very much like your lawyer is crap or you're not understanding the process he's using. I would suggest talking more to him and finding out his credentials in this matter and how engaged he is with the process you're experiencing.

jimgriff

30th Nov 2013, 19:41

Thanks Mike B- enlightening.
The computer is on a small network of two with wifi access as well. There are newtwok connecting points throughout the building- It is not secured and computer does not have a unique login for every member of staff.
The images were not stored on the PC but were attached to three emails sent to my home e mail address which having checked have never arrived at my home e mail . It is an AOL account which my whole family use- kids and all. The images were found in "sent items" as attachments.- There was no actual message.
The e mail programme is using MS outlook . Any mail sent by anyone from the computer I use has my digital signature on it and my name on top of the address bar of the message.
I was in work on the day that they were sent and the computer was on- It is often left on for days at a time- I have no way of proving that I was in the office at the time.
A number of people use the machine and even more have had free access in the last 9 weeks - including the three that I know are leading this long established harassment campaign against me.
Does this help?
I know everyone would say this- but I really didn't do this.

jimgriff

30th Nov 2013, 19:51

Maybe I should add that after 9 weeks of suspension I have only just (5 days ago) been told of this 'find' and have been given a date of 5 days time to attend a disciplinary hearing to answer the charges so to speak.
I am going to insist that the matter be deferred until an examination of the hard drive is done or they actually prove that it was me that 'sent' the e mails- which I know I didn't do- which is why I asked if it was possible to be Trojan / virus/ piggyback activity.

mad_jock

30th Nov 2013, 20:22

It is not secured and computer does not have a unique login for every member of staff.

They haven't a leg to stand on and if you had a decent lawyer or even union rep they would be sent packing with their tales between there legs.

I also suspect that it in breach of civil service guidelines for internet access as in theory every employer should be able to tell the police who was logged in where if there is any issues with illegal activity.

just stick to refusing to attend until they prove that you sent them. Until they do there is no charges to defend.

Mechta

30th Nov 2013, 22:13

Jimgriff, does your office have rigidly enforced policy of locking computers whenever you go for a break, to the loo, or to a meeting? If not, and you did not lock your PC, then anyone could have used it. If, as you surmise, some of those with whom you work, 'have it in for you', they may even have arranged a diversion to get you away from your computer to do this.

From my experience, most employers will ask you to sign an IT usage policy, then, having done so, employees are more or less obliged to break the rules just to get their job done. Several companies at which I have worked have taken weeks, and in one case, even months to get a log-in for me. As a result, I was having to share a log-in of an existing employee, with all the risks that entails for both concerned.

Given your situation, you need to plan for every possible outcome. I would suggest:

Join the Union
See if your house insurance offers financial support for legal advice
Speak to the citizen's advice bureau.
Go through all your household expenditure and have a really serious cull of any non-essential outgoings. You need to explain to the family the seriousness of the situation to the family so they will support you.
Sell anything you are no longer use or can live without for a while. You need every penny of liquid reserves if you are to keep your house. As is often said, most people are only two mortgage payments away from repossession.
Get your CV up to date, Ask someone with up to date knowledge of writing CVs to check it for you (e.g. a contractor), or someone at a job agency. Then get it on as many job search engines and employment agencies as possible (I set myself a target of registering 100 CVs when I'm looking).
Be positive. Read books such as 'The magic of thinking big' and 'How to win friends and influence people'. Some people ridicule these books, but you will find successful people appreciate their value.
Look upon being suspended from work as a stroke of luck, to give you the time to find a better job and get out of the unpleasant rut you have found yourself in. There are a surprising number of people for whom getting sacked was the best thing that ever happened to them.
Do your own research into employment law and keep notes. Once your employer realize you can quote multiple specific cases and run rings around them, they will soon be wanting to settle out of court.

cattletruck

1st Dec 2013, 01:26

E-mail is one of the most abused and hackable software tools around. It may be easy to set it up but it takes considerable effort to secure an e-mail system and yours looks like it isn't, infact it's woeful. This is not your fault, it's your organisation's fault entirely for being ignorant and not engaging professional experts to secure it properly.

In your setup an unauthorised e-mail in your Sent folder could be achieved without even using your computer. For example, if your e-mails are stored on a central e-mail server, one can simply log into your POP/IMAP server from another computer using your credentials, which are easily discovered, and then send the unauthorised e-mail. Next time you log into your computer and run Outlook it will look like you sent the unauthorised e-mail.

The shoddy e-mail system you have described and the way it is being shared with other staff means it has too many ends open for abuse. Forensic investigation to cover all possible avenues of abuse would be prohibitively expensive, even for the company.

Seems to me you're dealing with @rseholes who just want to do you. Be sure to let them know that their e-mail system is not secured to worlds best pactices ( IT w@nk words) and can be subject to unauthorised abuse.

Funny how values change over time, 15 years ago I introduced this novelty called 'internet' to an organisation, about 4 months later the proxy logs showed that the finance manager was accessing deviant porn sites. I mentioned it to my manager, she had a direct chat with the finance manager, problem never occured again, everybody was happy.

Phileas Fogg

1st Dec 2013, 11:45

I've been reading JimGriff's story particularly regarding his mortgage and how he needs this job etc.

Well, from what I've read, and unless there is something more serious that Jim hasn't told us about, the most serious offence he is accused of it that he emailed some less than tasteful pictures to himself from a work computer.

Well, f*ck me, give Jim a slap on the wrist and get on with life, did he offend a customer, did he steal anything, did he punch another staff member in the face, all of which might constitute 'gross misconduct' and dismissal.

If the answer to these are "no" then he is only accused of committing "misconduct" thus a verbal or written warning, which Jim can appeal against, is appropriate and Jim returns to work.

2 months suspension for sending oneself a dodgy email or few, this scenario stinks and were I Jim then, regardless of declaring my innocence, I would also fight them that this offence does not constitute "gross misconduct".

I had a scenario a number of years back, my employers had changed ownership and it was a case of out with the old and in with the new and, eventually, I was called in to the office to me made redundant.

It was blatant what they were doing and after a couple of redundancy hearings I told them straight "What you are doing is illegal, you know it, I know it and you know that I know it".

At that point they entered in to negotions of a compromise agreement and a brown envelope being passed in my direction!

Good luck Jim

mixture

1st Dec 2013, 15:07

Do your own research into employment law and keep notes. Once your employer realize you can quote multiple specific cases and run rings around them, they will soon be wanting to settle out of court.

Stupid suggestion.

Trying to be your own DIY hotshot lawyer based on what you read in some books is bad enough.

Doing so with employment law is asking for trouble and you are only going to embarrass yourself.

Employment law is incredibly complex and ever changing, especially as in this instance we are talking about UK/EU employment law, which is probably some of the most complex in the world !

When dealing with employment law, there is absolutely no choice but to employ the services of a good lawyer with a specialism in employment law and let them get on with the work. Not only will they be able to recite all the case law off the top of their head, but they will also have extensive real world experience.... stuff that you won't find in your library text books.

jimgriff

1st Dec 2013, 16:46

Everything I have told you is true- I'm not missing anything out.
I work for a council- a corporate body- who so far have not done things (suspension etc) by corporate decision. I know they didn't have a meeting as I have to be present at them all.
I have asked a number of times for minutes of a meeting where the decision was made to suspend me etc under freedom of info and haven't had a single response. - Illegal. There are loys of other infringements of Local Govt act which they seem to ignore.

I was given less than 2 days notice (after a nine week suspension) of a disciplinary hearing which I have called off.
I am in a union but they are slow to respond until things like tribunals etc kick in.
I have employed a specialist employment lawyer (£200+ an hour) but cant afford it.
The images are not illegal or porn- I am a magistrate and know what I am talking about there.- BUT they are saying 'inappropriate images'.
I know that I have never seen them before and I certainly didn't download them.
Of course there are options open to me to blow whistles, make complaints and raise a grievance etc but this would I think start a 'breakdown of trust' scenario where I would be forced to resign. Then claim unfair dismissal in an employment tribunal. IF I won that the compensation would be less than a years salary and I'm still screwed.
All the advice is good so far and some very interesting points raised etc. Thanks chaps and chapesses- keep it coming.

Fly-by-Wife

1st Dec 2013, 16:54

I have employed a specialist employment lawyer (£200+ an hour) but cant afford it.
Have you checked all your insurance policies - building, home contents, car etc. - to see if you have legal cover?

It came in handy for us, once - we found we had legal expenses cover under our home contents insurance which enabled us to recover almost £10,000 in damages and expenses that we would probably not otherwise have succeeded in recouping, as we would not have risked the couple of thousand in fees to get advice and bring the case.

FBW

cattletruck

1st Dec 2013, 22:49

Trying to be your own DIY hotshot lawyer based on what you read in some books is bad enough.

Doing so with employment law is asking for trouble and you are only going to embarrass yourself.

Disagree with you there mixture. I had a lawyer but he was full of sh!t so I got rid of him. What's not to say that he didn't contact the other side and made a deal with them to lose my case in reward for more money under the table - it happens?

So I went about it solo. I picked up the two volume Fair Work Act off the internet and a few other related documents. I downloaded about 10 transcripts of cases that were similar to mine. I spoke to Fair Work councilors for impartial advice. I learnt a lot and it wasn't that hard.

The other part of the law system was learning the formalities. I had marked a day to go see some actual public hearings but never did because I ran out of time.

The ugly and scary bit was dealing with the outrageous lies submitted as witness statements and the threats made by their lawyers including paying their $15K-$20K costs. I can tell you that it is not a comfortable feeling when you have been working hard for several years with obscenely early starts only to be outed on someone's whim, rapidly going broke, and fighting insurmountable attempts at being scorned and drowned.

It was obvious I had a strong case from the loud noise on the other side, for all I wanted out of them was the plain and simple truth for my dismissal - which I already knew was based on prejudice. In my readings I had come across an age old bit of law wisdom - never ask a question that you do not already know the answer to, and with that advice I nailed that bitch to the wall.

But even if you win, you still lose. Tribunals take months to be scheduled (mine took 8 months). During that period what do you tell your prospective new employer? Do you lie and get caught out later, do you tell the truth and fail the short-listing process. After you win and the termination becomes a resignation, how do you then explain the logic of "resigning" from a job to become unemployed? It really is a stinker of a position be in through no choice of your own.

Unlike my sudden and unexpected dismissal where it was the first thing performed by that person after coming back from 2 weeks leave (I was taken off site, denied a support person, codes were changed to be denied access back into the building, and sacked), Mr jimgriff is still lucky to be sitting in his office and should therefore request that he no longer be harassed until they can provide him with absolute and undeniable proof of their claims.

exeng

1st Dec 2013, 23:22

Just to say that the 'innocent until proved guilty' tenet does not apply in employment law. Or so I was told by my union when I was sacked.

In other words the employer does not have to prove 'beyond all reasonable doubt' etc.

Criminal law applies this, but not employment law.

Regards
Exeng

jimgriff

17th Feb 2014, 22:07

As some of you may have read I was suspended from work last September on full pay. Trumped up charge and process for suspension was illegal.
I am to face a disciplinary hearing on Wednesday coming and it has now come out that some of the 'evidence' against me has been found on my personal AOL account.
I was not asked for permission from anyone to access this and am of the opinion that my privacy has been infringed. AOL is not used by my employer and it was my personal account. Password protected. But they have put in a letter to my solicitor that they have been through my personal e mail to get stuff to discipline me with- NOT porn I hasten to add.
Nowhere in the policy from work does it say they can monitor etc and I wonder if I can do anything about this? UK law please. Other countries may be different.
I had work permission to use computer for private use.
Breaches of Human Rights?

Bushfiva

18th Feb 2014, 00:13

I still don't know why you think we can help you more than your solicitor(s). Are they no good??

parabellum

18th Feb 2014, 00:17

If you choose to respond at all then you might want to tell your inquisitors that you have not given them permission to access your private mail so any 'evidence' they claim is possibly inadmissible. Also, you say they have given permission for you to use your computer for private use - be sure to have this in the form of a document should they try to deny it or have reliable witnesses, if possible.

You should take your lawyer to the hearing, he will be highly tuned to every nuance of what the employer says and it will be better for you, in the long run, if he ties them in knots and makes them look foolish.

Loose rivets

18th Feb 2014, 02:57

Jim, I really feel for you. The thing is, people, some people, simply have no character. It's almost as if they have no soul. I've sat across a table from two men who were respected and generally liked - indeed, that included me until I was shown the truth. They lied, and lied, and lied. Not very serious things, but as they put it, added together it made it questionable that I should hold my position in a demanding job.

What they cited was contrived and bewildering. Bewildering, because they were saying things that were bordering on Pythonesque. At that time, I didn't need them or that job, but hell, I wish I'd fought them on principle.

All this is about people. I have no idea why I didn't fight back then, but you need to - need to both for the result and how you will feel if you don't.

Just know you are not alone, and for hell's sake don't do what I did and take the line of least resistance. Fight. And let them know you're going to fight until your last breath. It may sound over dramatic, but people like this just don't care about others and how much they hurt their staff - and indeed the families of staff they have a moral if not legal responsibility for. Expect no decency from them. Their character is flawed and no amount of reasoned pleading for fairness will do a jot of good. But you have one thing going for you: these pathetic examples of human beings will so often buckle when in a real battle. Fight to win, and for the moment at least, don't allow the fear of losing to dampen your resolve.

jimgriff

18th Feb 2014, 07:02

Thanks Rivets, I fully intend fighting but am physically, financially and mentally exhausted by this whole matter.
Hacking my personal e mail account (AOL) is the pits and I intend going to police when I have checked on the law.
I cant use solicitor any more as I have no money left to do so- so am trying my best to DIY.
I have raised a 20 point grievance against my employer but have been informed that these will not be heard before disciplinary- despite many of the grievances raised are about the hearing and procedures.
Hearing tomorrow (wed) at 11am-

cattletruck

18th Feb 2014, 07:45

jimgriff

If your wife/son/daughter/dog/cat/neighbour use your private AOL account how can they prove you wrote that email?

Methinks some senior boss is offering a bonus to the people trying to get rid of you. As LR said, these people have no soul.

Your best tack with these people is to deny everything and tell them their investigative efforts are flawed. Your motivation to defeat them when you go to the hearing should stem from denying that pr!ck his bonus.

Good luck.

Mike-Bracknell

18th Feb 2014, 09:10

Flying Serpent

19th Feb 2014, 16:52

Hope it went well for you today Jim.

fingers crossed you nailed the buggers.

jimgriff

20th Feb 2014, 17:32

I turned up at the appointed hour with my union rep and waited, and waited..... 20 mins later their legal adviser walked in and informed us that the hearing couldn't proceed as proper procedure had not been followed.
There had been no formal investigation by the employer into a number of the allegations. So next four hours were spent answering questions to start those investigations. You couldn't make it up. Stress levels are going through the roof and will have to wait for a few weeks now for this to be done then another disciplinary hearing.

Loose rivets

20th Feb 2014, 20:09

That treatment is standard stuff. It puts me in mind of an enemy starving its foe. They know your Achilles heel and intend to bleed you financially. See if your rep agrees, and when you can, talk to your solicitor about such behavior. It will forewarn him and with luck, it'll make his blood boil as much as it does mine when I hear such stories. Perhaps he'll know of procedures that demand a proper response to arranged meetings.

Something I'd thought to say but forgot. About 15 years ago, an old friend was fired from their job, they felt it was due to a very common and in no way debilitating complaint. I'd better say what it was. Just a localized arthritic issue. They were stunned - having been with the company for many years and well thought of by clients. Some time later they hired a solicitor.

The company was not a big one, but I assume finally claimed on some sort of insurance, because my friend was awarded enough to provide a small income for life and pay cash for a house. They ended up being better off than they had ever been.

Not a common story, but one where precise procedures were followed and right prevailed.

parabellum

20th Feb 2014, 20:49

Jim -You may not be able to afford a lawyer/solicitor at the moment but surely your union can? Most unions have their own legal advisors and since your employer is using it's legal resources against you, are you not entitled to legal representation from the union? Someone suggested involving the newspapers, very risky but they, like the unions, have deep pockets too.

Sounds an awful lot like some irritating little nit in the IT department is out to make a name for themselves and has picked you.

cattletruck

21st Feb 2014, 12:09

If the organisation is union friendly and a lot of the workers are already union members then chances are the unions won't pay for a lawyer. Got that low-down from one very popular law firm in Australia whose "funding" for these kinds of cases is paid for entirely by unions i.e. they don't bite the hand that feeds them.

Re the farcical meeting, it appears that whoever is going for that bonus for your head has tripped over him/herself, so just to add a bit of formality and record of the event request a copy of the meeting minutes from whomever chaired it.

It looks like they don't have much to go on and are trying to force you to make an admission. Just be very careful what you say to them and be particularly attentive to not saying anything that can be deliberately taken out of context by them.

Cowards the lot of them.

Ancient Observer

21st Feb 2014, 17:12

At the risk of a monologue.

Rules for dealing with crap from employers.
(I have fired more people than I care to remember and I have been fired 3 times.)

1. Do every relaxing exercise you can whenever the barstewards are getting you riled up. They are very helpful in the middle of the night when you can't sleep. Google for relaxing exercises. My favourites are 1. Deep breathing and 2. Muscle tensing and relaxing up and down the body.

2. Say as little as possible at any point in time. If you can get through a 3 hour meeting without saying anything, do it. Think of your favourite song when they are talking. (For me it is Leyla by Clapton) (It will make more sense than them talking). If you can't think of a song, think of a great film/tv programme. (For me it is either a Douglas Adams piece, or any Monty Python)
Do the relaxing exercises during meetings. Feel free to stand up and walk about to avoid DVT

3. Refuse to answer any question unless it is put in writing. Typed on paper. Not e-mails.

4. Only respond in writing. Don't write anything without thinking about what you have written. For about 48 hours.

5. Get all their stuff - e.g. the AoL account stuff, in writing.

6. Do the relaxation exercises again.

7. If you can't sleep, try sleeping tab.s, ear plugs and eye shades. I've used the lot.

You get the idea, I hope. AO

cockney steve

21st Feb 2014, 20:40

Jimgriff....Firstly let me say, i sympathise with your position, but Iam stunned at your apparent naivety, when you are a Magistrate.

First rule....NEVER be overawed by an adversary....they ALL pee and 5h1t the same as you.

As with the taxman....Do NOT give a direct answer.... "I will let you knowthe answer"
"I will advise you in due course" are standard stock "stonewalls"

"I Think....invariably comes back as "you stated" -so, DON'T

be as unchelpfully cooperative as you can....consider fighting fire with fire and warning individuals thet your legal representative is preparing a case against THEM, PERSONALLY.... computer misuse...abuse of public office...etc.

If they think they may have to walk the plank alone, they may well reconsider their position.
A good lawyer, on the face of the story you have submitted here, would already have issued writs, imho.

Are they straw-men, or will the council pick up the tab? (misuse of public funds? embezzlement? Perhaps they're like you, no reserves and the right prod may make them think about wether they can afford to be held personally liable for someone else's vendetta. I would have thought a decent solicitor would take this case on a contingency basis.....IE he gets paid after winning.

How about ataking a civil summons out against the "ringleader" ?

I'd say you already have a case for constructive dismissal.

Force them to submit all in writing..refuse and deny any verbal interchanges.

if you continue to act like a victim, you set yourself up to become one.....fight fire with fire. you owe it to your family, if not yourself!

M.Mouse

22nd Feb 2014, 11:52

I too have been stunned by your apparent naivety, especially as you sit as a magistrate.

I also concur with everything cockney steve has said above.

ExSp33db1rd

22nd Feb 2014, 18:37

I was once given the advice - if ever being summoned before the Flight Manager for some minor misdemeanour - to imagine him sat on the toilet with his pants around his ankles, not sat behind a desk in gold braid adorned uniform.

In other words: - they are only as human, and therefore as fallible, as yourself.

It helps !

Loose rivets

22nd Feb 2014, 19:43

When you next get to talk to them, have a few questions written down on formal looking paper. Clip board or some-such. Plan these questions carefully - mindful of Mike's comment about them going on the wrong side of the law looking at your email - and ask these questions as though you've been briefed to get specific information. Refuse to discuss the reason, or any third party, but word it as " I gather I need to have these questions answered." If they decline, suggest they are germane and you're told you have a right to know. etc., etc.

parabellum

22nd Feb 2014, 23:01

As an add-on to what Ancient Observer has said about getting through a long meeting without saying anything, try this method that I was taught as resistance to interrogation; you 'do the alphabet', you hear them but don't really listen, what you are looking for is a word that begins with 'A', then one with 'B' etc. etc. When you get stuck go back to 'A' - it really works, you are thinking in a world of your own whilst they witter on.

Nervous SLF

21st Jun 2014, 01:54

How are you getting on with this situation? Has it ended or is it ongoing?

Ancient Observer

21st Jun 2014, 14:23

Yes, an update would be interesting.

jimgriff

22nd Jun 2014, 20:09

I am still suspended on full pay. They are seemingly still investigating things. Now in 10th month. Have been confirmed as nuts by psychologist - and am in care of local mental health crisis team (suicide risk). Madness.

500N

22nd Jun 2014, 22:28

Jim

Sorry to hear about all this.

May I ask (and no need to answer if you don't want) did one psychologist declare you "nuts" ?

What was the actual classification ?

Did they do any tests or just talk to you ?

And are you able to get a second opinion ?

Good luck with everything.

jimgriff

23rd Jun 2014, 10:58

Have PM'd you 500

dubbleyew eight

23rd Jun 2014, 11:04

erm, probably speaking out of term here but haven't you cracked the ultimate job?
full pay, no responsibilities and plenty of time for fishing :}

....you have bought a fishing rod haven't you?

nothing would peeve the enemy more than you turn up to meetings deeply suntanned, smiling and smelling faintly of last nights catch :-)

500N

23rd Jun 2014, 12:35

Jim,

PM sent to you as no PM received.

cattletruck

23rd Jun 2014, 13:57

I am a magistrate

and

I am still suspended on full pay. They are seemingly still investigating things. Now in 10th month.

I don't know all the gory details (and probably don't want to) but maybe you got a reputation as the metaphorical hanging judge and someone wants you out of the way for an impending trial.

....you have bought a fishing rod haven't you?

The best advice under these circumstances until the so called investigation conludes and finds nothing.

jimgriff

1st Aug 2014, 09:14

Quick update- I am still suspended on full pay- 11 months now. Still not heard anything from my employer.
I took a grievance to them and on third attempt they met with me and just listened- no questions, no statements, no testing of my evidence- nothing. My union colleague who attended with me stated that in his opinion it was not a formal grievance meeting in any format that he was aware of and did not comply with any form of law, guidance etc and was therefore not worth the effort attending. I have not heard from the employer since that meeting some 6 weeks ago. Then out of the blue - yesterday- I had an invite to attend a grievance appeal meeting called by my employer. BUT- I have not made any appeal as there has not been any reaction to the meeting for me to appeal.!! Madness.
I still await an 'expert' analysis of the computer hard drive- which I am led to understand has taken place- but I have not been given the chance to have the same done by myself- and this is where I need the possible help of my fellow Ppruners- Is there anyone out there who could (confidentially) look at the report - if it turns up- and give me an expert opinion on what is being said and to test the evidence given by the employers side against me?
I can send a PDF copy to anyone who can do this for me- but would need a report of some sort to enable me to test any statements made by them.
I do not have the report yet- and may not even get it- but am just asking ahead.
I will not be able to pay much for such a report as I am spent out- financially and emotionally and am looking for a favour from a friend to help me please.
e mail me or PM me from here if you can help or know someone who can.
Thanks in advance
Jimgriif

jimgriff

1st Aug 2014, 09:16

500N- I have sent you a number of replies- but nothing heard- e mail?

mixture

1st Aug 2014, 09:21

I still await an 'expert' analysis of the computer hard drive- which I am led to understand has taken place- but I have not been given the chance to have the same done by myself- and this is where I need the possible help of my fellow Ppruners- Is there anyone out there who could (confidentially) look at the report - if it turns up- and give me an expert opinion on what is being said and to test the evidence given by the employers side against me?
I can send a PDF copy to anyone who can do this for me- but would need a report of some sort to enable me to test any statements made by them.
I do not have the report yet- and may not even get it- but am just asking ahead.

So let me get this straight.....

You want someone to write you a report on a report written by a third-party selected by your ex-employer. This report relating to an active and unresolved dispute between yourself and your employer, the circumstances of which we know nothing about, let alone having seen any of the IT side of it.

Yeah.... I can't possibly think where that plan could go wrong. :rolleyes:

I'd be surprised if anyone worth their salt is willing to touch that one with a barge pole. Anyone who does agree will only be giving you a load of rubbish because they're merely proffering an opinion on an opinion on a topic they've only heard part of one side of a story of .... you might as well ask your dog to do that for you as the worthiness of the result won't be much different.

Sorry to rain on your parade, but just trying to put you in the "expert's shoes" so to speak.

jimgriff

1st Aug 2014, 09:38

Thanks for the response- seriously-I know it sounds dodgy- but it's not something I can afford to do professionally and all I was looking for was someone with more knowledge than me to cast an eye on a report and see that it was sound in content- not on the subject- but on the methodology and presentation.
For all I know they could write a load of stuff that sounds good but worthless from an evidential point of view. I don't want anyone to take sides. I do understand completely where you are coming from.

cockney steve

1st Aug 2014, 12:19

I find it strange that your employer has the resources to "sideline" you on full pay for almost a year......Uet it's HR and Legal departments would appear to be staffed by incompetent half-wits.......
Do the board of directors actually know that a large sum of their cash has been squandered on what sounds like a personal vendetta.?
Meanwhile, someone is paying you to do your own thing....make the most of it!

Phileas Fogg

1st Aug 2014, 13:06

I think what Jim is looking for is someone to cast their over over a report and report back "Yep, these guys know their stuff" or "Nope, these guys are feeding you a load of bull".

jimgriff

1st Aug 2014, 13:14

Thanks PF- exactly- I don't want opinion on the content- just the methodology and the viability.
I have now read the report briefly- (93 pages) arrived at 13.10 today- and it seems clear (they provide evidence) that they have accessed my private e mail account and the private e mail account of my wife- which were nothing to do with work. I did have permission to access private e mail from my work kit. I think they may have just shot themselves in the foot.- My wife has nothing to do with my work and never calls there either- but details of her e mails sent from her private e mail account are included in the report.

mad_jock

1st Aug 2014, 13:24

Take it to the police. They will be in deep poo if they have.

KelvinD

1st Aug 2014, 13:52

How on earth did they access your wife's private emails? Surely they would be on her PC/Laptop?
Anyway, it is starting to sound time to get your union rep back on the case and starting talking about huge sums of money.
I too was "set up" back in 2004; mainly because I said what I saw and this did not suit the growing band of Flash Harrys who were slithering their way up the corporate ladder. They manoeuvred me into an imaginary job which they then made redundant. I had to fight with threats of an industrial tribunal and they capitulated with literally 15 minutes to go before the deadline for filing the complaint. They came up with 4 years salary and paid all my legal bills.
So, stick it to them. It sounds possible someone at work has a personal grudge and is perhaps using the company to stitch you up. Don't let them get away with it!