When did airlines cease doing training circuits?

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

The VC10 thread got me wondering.... When did airlines stop doing circuit training in the actual aircraft, relying totally on sims?

I do remember many years ago (at least 15, maybe more) a large Airbus (A300?) doing numerous circuits at Manchester all of one Saturday afternoon. The controller was sending them alternatively right hand then left hand, to share the noise around for those on the ground!

[Airclues]

For most airlines it was in the mid 90's. To avoid base training (circuits) the airline, and specific fleet, as well as the simulator needs to be ZFT (Zero Flight Time) approved. The trainee must also have a minimum level of experience, and the instructor must have ZFT training.
I was involved in getting CAA ZFT approval for the BA 747 "classic" fleet in 1995. We had to be observed by CAA inspectors both on the sim and on the line. It was a steep leaning curve but eventually it worked well (although not so much fun for the trainers).
When I left BA in 2002 and went to work for a cargo airline, that airline did not have ZFT approval so once again I had the pleasure of bashing the circuit.
Even airlines such as BA will have to carry out base training if they recruit pilots without the minimum ZFT requirements (from memory....1500 hours??).
Base training was probably the most fun that a trainer could have, although it's expensive, and environmentally unfriendly.

[McGoonagall]

Can't exactly remember how long ago but a cargo airline was doing base training at Almeria using B727s. Sat on the 1st floor open air terrace sharing a bottle of wine watching touch and go, missed approaches to the dead side and full stop landings with taxi and go again for about 90 minutes. The noise hacked a lot of punters off but I loved it. :)

[MARK9263]

The A.300 you may be thinking of was on Saturday 14th December 1985.

It was in fact KLM A.310 PH-AGD and it performed no less than 22 ILS approaches during 1620 and 1805 that day.

[PIK3141]

It has not ceased entirely - this year Ryanair, easyJet, Monarch, Thomson, KLM, RAF, Loganair etc have all base trained at Prestwick

[Daysleeper]

Base training , (ie circuits) is still absolutely normal for most airlines. Chap I know reckons he did about 80 ccts in the A320 series last year. I'd have been dizzy.

[Airclues]

If the pilot under training does not have the required experience then base training is still required Therefore the 200 hour cadets joining BA, Ryanair, EasyJet etc will not be ZFT qualified.

Copied from an old PPRuNe post;

FCL.730.A Specific requirements for pilots undertaking a zero flight time type rating (ZFTT) course — aeroplanes
(a) A pilot undertaking instruction at a ZFTT course shall have completed, on a multi-pilot turbo-jet aeroplane certificated to the standards of CS-25 or equivalent airworthiness code or on a multi-pilot turbo-prop aeroplane having a maximum certificated take-off mass of not less than 10 tonnes or a certificated passenger seating configuration of more than 19 passengers, at least:
(1) if an FFS qualified to level CG, C or interim C is used during the course, 1 500 hours flight time or 250 route sectors;
(2) if an FFS qualified to level DG or D is used during the course, 500 hours flight time or 100 route sectors.
(b) When a pilot is changing from a turbo-prop to a turbo-jet aeroplane or from a turbo-jet to a turbo-prop aeroplane, additional simulator training shall be required.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

The A.300 you may be thinking of was on Saturday 14th December 1985.

It was in fact KLM A.310 PH-AGD and it performed no less than 22 ILS approaches during 1620 and 1805 that day.

Yes! That was definitely it! I was pretty sure it was KLM but not sure enough to post that. 1985... crikey, a bit more than 15 years ago, though. Getting on for twice that. Time flies when you're having fun!

[Dave Clarke Fife]

More recently British Airways were circuit bashing at Manston in the A380

[Midland 331]

Ryanair used to do them at Castle Don. in recent years.

Teesside used to be a favourite, and this traffic would be welcomed and valued by them now if it was still available.

No extended downwind legs needed these days to sequence with other traffic, just the risk of tumbleweed FOD...

[ZeBedie]

In the early 70's I saw Vanguards, newly acquired by Merpati doing circuits with at least one prop feathered.

Also saw Viscounts in Austrian livery with two feathered, which seems brave, with hindsight. Even as a kid, it impressed as something that seemed a bit daring.

[The SSK]

My first jet flight was a familiarisation trip on a BOAC 707 bashing the circuit at Bedford, of all places.

[spekesoftly]

.....BOAC 707 bashing the circuit at Bedford, of all places. I believe Bedford was often used for airline training. Nice long runway, convenient location, outside controlled airspace and not too busy.

Also used for training by the RAF. I recall doing practice ILS approaches and circuits in the early '70s in a Vickers Varsity, of all things!

[JW411]

I once signed off six new pilots in one day. Each one needed six landings and a go-around so I did 42 circuits that day. The first beer didn't even touch the sides!

[Groundloop]

I recall doing practice ILS approaches and circuits in the early '70s in a Vickers Varsity, of all things!

Well, Bedford was the base for the Blind Landing Experimental Unit and the Varsity was used for the first tests of automatic landing there in the late 50s/early 60s. So Bedford had a long history of Varsitys doing ILS approaches.

[ShyTorque]

I'm fairly sure that "Castle Don" is still used for circuits by RyanAir aircraft (unless they've stopped in the last few weeks, last time I was passing by).

[Airbanda]

Agree about observation of RYR doing circuits @ EMA. Seen to do touch/go form Motorway and also while while dropping son off at Download festival.

[Chris Scott]

Airbanda,

Let me check I got that right. Are you saying M O'L diverted a Ryanair a/c to do a touch-and-go on the motorway, in order to drop his son off near the Download festival?

[Dan Winterland]

Safe to say that the pilots will be paying for those circuits. So they're still revenue flights!

[kluge]

There's a song about that :uhoh:

Sixteen Tons - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixteen_Tons)

[Wander00]

Sorry, can someone explain - do you mean that pilots who need to fly circuits for qualification in airliners have to pay their flying costs - if so is that full cost, marginal cost, fuel cost or what - how much a circuit, how many circuits?

Dumbfounded of the Vendee

[Lordflasheart]

Wander ...

After the lad or lass has paid £50k or more for a bare commercial licence, a type rating will be needed. This tends to cost €30k for a light twin such as a 737 or airbus 320. It can be obtained by straight purchase (externally at your own risk) or by joining an airline that's recruiting at the time and then paying. The €30k type rating includes free simulator and free circuits *** to the required number. Don't ask what happens if the examiner has to enquire what your mummy calls you. The bonus for actually joining an airline first and then paying up front, is that you've got a "job" and you don't have to pay back the training cost of your type rating out of your salary (if you're lucky enough to actually get a salary from your "job".) But you may well have to pay for your inflight crew meals and your uniform. Subsequent type conversions will probably be zero flight time as previously explained by more knowledgeable and involved ppruners such as Capt. Airclues. But you may have to sign a bond of some kind to get the conversion or command training.

*** DanW is thus 100% correct about circuits being "Revenue Flights." I'd have got very depressed it were me.

"Sixteen Tons of Number Nine Rules" LFH

[Wander00]

Blimey - I am so pleased Aunty Betty paid for my training - but never went airlines...................

[reynoldsno1]

CX used to circuit bash at Zhuhai a few years ago, istr ...

[MMCMME]

Jet2 still do circuit training at Teesside now and again.

Been a while since they were last here but it does happen :)

[frieghtdog2000]

Did some Base Training Capt training for Jet 2 at PIK on Wednesday - 20 landings and a few go arounds.:ok:

[philbky]

Thomson did plenty of circuit bashing at Shannon, Newquay and Doncaster to name but 3 for a period this summer with their 787s