Let's reintroduce morality to aviation

[rock-the-boat]

I have a mental image of the world's aviation CEO's sitting behind closed doors clutching their bellies in hysterical laughter at the eagerness of pilots to take on the burden of some of their business costs.

What would happen if no pilot ever again paid for his own type rating? and
How could we go about getting all the pilots in the world to agree to such a principal?

[Narrow Runway]

I have a mental image of no pilot ever paying for a rating again. It looks like a Pig Flying in my mind.

It simply will never happen, so I'd forget about it.

It's not about morality necessarily, as there are so many willing victims, it could not be described as any kind of forced act.

We are our own worst enemies.

[Alexander de Meerkat]

It is not often I agree with Narrow Runway, but I do on this occasion. It's a bit like getting people to agree not to feed their children for a greater cause that may not be totally apparent to them at the time. It is simply not going to happen. The harsh reality is at the other end of the scale - if every airline in the world announced that no pilot would be paid a single penny for the first 5 years of their employment, there would still be a queue round the block and into the next street of willing young people waiting to take up the offer. That is where the problem lies - not with the employers.

[captplaystation]

Look at companies like Vueling that Hire & Dump every 12mths thereby flooding the market with 500hr on type aces who cannot then find any subsequent employment. . and yet, they are queing up to give away their €'s to that bunch of Bandits. :confused:

Nice idea, but people (and, sorry to come across all "old fart" here) especially the current generation of newbees, "want it & want it now" regardless of the long term consequences, & enter into this "racket" with their eyes firmly blinkered. :ugh:

[Bealzebub]

I have a mental image of the world's aviation CEO's sitting behind closed doors clutching their bellies in hysterical laughter at the eagerness of pilots to take on the burden of some of their business costs.I very much doubt that. They would be too busy worrying about their own needs and desires, and the competitive threat posed to themselves by the many other predators nipping at their heels. CEO's are rather like premier sports players, in that they see themselves as a valuable commodity with a very limited tenure.

Human nature is driven (as with much of the rest of the sentient natural world) by a competitive need for survival. Human behaviour rewards and applauds competition and it is a primary driver in how we do many things in our lives. "Morality" is parochial, in the sense that it is a set of "rights and wrongs" that is accepted by a particular group of people. One person or groups perception of "morality" can be very different from that of another person or group. Even then the perception can be set aside or altered by a threat or overriding survival need. For most of us, the basic survival needs of protecting our families and ourselves, and putting a roof over our heads, and food on the table, is further driven by the need to provide buffers of comfort that drive the threat of loss further away. Money in the bank, A bigger house, a faster car, greater perceived status, a higher position on the totem pole. They are all competitive drivers.

What would happen if no pilot ever again paid for his own type rating? and
How could we go about getting all the pilots in the world to agree to such a principal? That is simple. You personally would see the removal of a competitive obstacle, thereby giving you a perceived advantage. After all, that is why you asked the question. That is also why in the millennia that surrounds our current state of evolution, it is never going to happen.
How could we go about getting all the pilots in the world to agree to such a principal? I think you mean principle, but in any event, and for the reasons proffered you couldn't. It may be enshrined in rules, beliefs, and practices, but if it provides a competitive edge to somebody else's real or perceived survival needs it will not be eliminated.

[justagigolo77]

It's a bit like getting people to agree not to feed their children for a greater cause that may not be totally apparent to them at the time. It is simply not going to happen.

ADM, That's not a good comparison because unlike feeding children, pilots have a choice, but I see what you are trying to get at.

It is not just potential and current employees who are to blame, it is also most definitely the exploitation of human whore tendencies by employers.

It's really too bad that individual pilots, in Europe and Asia especially, aren't held accountable for their actions of getting into the cockpit as much as they are for their actions inside the cockpit (as it has been in Canada) but the same can be said for companies being held accountable for their recruiting practices as much as they are for their maintenance.

[TeaTowel]

Hypothetically if people stopped paying type-ratings what would happen? Would we see airlines closing down, slowing expansion plans?


In the mean time do what I do. Expose anyone who pays to their non-flying friends and family. No one wants to associate with a scab.

That is where the problem lies - not with the employers.

Good. The guys paying have been branded as victims too long. They laugh at the rest of us climbing up the ladder while they pay 30k for an elevator.

[drivez]

When you know someone who has paid for two type ratings in the past 12 months, what chance does anyone have to play the "I won't accept the job unless you pay for the TR" card.

[drivez]

Having said that, earlier this year I was offered a hold pool position with the promise of a VERY lucrative contract, that would provide the kind of financial stability and hours on a popular jet that my current position doesn't even allow me to dream of. Catch, you have to pay for TR. I could definitely see why some people would take the gamble and do it.

The issue will always be though, you get those who can afford. If suddenly everyone said no to paying for a TRing companies wouldn't go out of business, they would just have an increased training cost, and a lower profit.

[WX Man]

Personally I really like ADM's analogy. A bit of an extreme case, but a nice analogy nonetheless!

Morality in any corporate situation is far from being at the forefront of the minds of senior management. Meeting targets, keeping their shareholders/bosses happy and as a result keeping and being good at their job is the primary concern. It just depends how far down the rest of the list "employee welfare" is.

I've worked for 2 companies that don't ask people to pay for their ratings (I have been very lucky), and both of them have an attitude towards their employees that, in the case of my current employer, can only be described as contemptible. The last company I worked for was better, but not much and it was going downhill when I left.

My present employer pays low salaries, as it claims that by not asking people to pay for their own ratings, they recover the cost from your salary and bond you for 2 years. Of that's the case, why do salaries not jump by £10k after your bonded period?

People will always do whatever they can to get a foot in the door. Sad but true. The best we can hope for is to stick together as pilots and continually negotiate with management to keep Ts and Cs acceptable. And the best way of doing that (certainly in the UK) is by joining a union (BALPA or the IPA), and making sure it is recognised.

Hopefully, if people do that, there is a formal forum for negotiating with management that will hopefully avoid people getting screwed over- both existing employees and me joiners.

Cue debate about the effectiveness of unions! (Or not, hopefully)

[Luke SkyToddler]

It's got absolutely nothing to do with "morality" it's simply supply and demand economics. Doesn't matter if the commodity is airline pilots, or tins of beans - when there is a massive over supply and not enough demand, the price of the commodity goes down to meet the market.

But while we're daydreaming, can I ask why you drew the arbitrary line at pay-for-rating? There was a time when airlines paid for instrument ratings and put you in an airliner on fantastically high pay as soon as you graduated from school. Hell, there was a time when they paid for all training costs right from day one. Let's return to those times, all we need to do is make a plan to ensure that nobody on earth will sign up for ab initio training unless it's fully paid for. That will surely screw the evil airline management over :ok:

Of course everyone will need to stand together on it for the next 20 or 30 years before the shortage really starts to bite ... but hey it's a small price to pay, I'm sure everybody would understand, the young guys won't mind staying unemployed and waiting until they're 40 or 50 to get their hands on those shiny jets, after all it's for the good of everyone right?

Extreme I know but you see how silly it is to claim the high ground of "morality" in the business world.

[av8r76]

What he^said. It boils down to basic supply and demand. I reckon it's utopian for pilots to 'stick together' and take the high road on this issue. When there are 10 entry level openings for every 50 prospective candidates, you will have someone who will break ranks and grab that rare opportunity. Prisoners dilemma comes to mind.

Airlines will find ingenuous ways to extract that little bit extra from it's pilots, come to think of it, all its employees. For pilots it's P2F to bonds to self funded TR's to ramping; there are various ways to get that pound of flesh. The point of discussion is too focused on the monetary aspect of it when the opportunity cost of getting qualified and hired can and does take a heavy financial toll on newbies.

[mikehammer]

if every airline in the world announced that no pilot would be paid a single penny for the first 5 years of their employment, there would still be a queue round the block and into the next street of willing young people waiting to take up the offer.

What makes you think that??

Surely if it were better known what poor terms and conditions are actually available in today's market, fewer people would have rose coloured specs?

Trouble is, by the time they're in, it's too late.

[cockney steve]

The huge expansion boom-years are over.....the market for seats is saturated,as is the flight-crew situation.

Airlines now focus on their primary raison d' etre which is carrying pax....NOT training pilots!

They've a choice,
tie up considerable resources, admin and capital to train tyros.
then begin the arduous process of recouping it via bonding at a lower wage,

OR take on a ready-qualified pilot,able to work from theget-go and well aware how much the training actually cost.


Now, work out the cost of training and type-rating and how long you expect to take, to repay that capital and interest.....compare the differential in pay, to a bonded , t/ rated Capt. and a "ready-made" one. I'm pretty confident that if the bonded person walks as soon as the bond expires, THE EMPLOYER WILL LOSE MONEY.(Well, OK, they'll see a very poor rate of return on their investment in that employee)

The sad fact is, Pilots resent the bonding and clawback......but they also resent having to paddle their own canoe and present to a potential employer fully qualified.

You can't have it both ways, people. Instead of moaning how much your employer is ripping you off, buy shares in the company....you'll then be into a share of the profits you help create. no risk, no reward! you don't get the penny AND the toffee!

[stilton]

When was there 'morality' in Aviation ?


Dog eat dog, always was, always will be.

[Mikehotel152]

Dog eat dog, always was, always will be.

I'm inclined to agree. In my previous profession it was quite possible for the meek and mild mannered to rise to the top provided they had the skill. In stark contrast the very nature of piloting an aircraft tends to attract the 'self-confident' and extrovert personalities, with such people being trumpeted by training departments as being proactive and therefore better. No amount of CRM training will change that assumption and while those personalities dominate the profession we will never have unity.

The other side of that argument is faced by newbie pilots every day. Each person leaves childhood with a preferred career in mind. Call it a 'dream' if you will, but I find that concept a pile of steaming nonsense designed to belittle the 'dreamer'. The fact is that many people have the desire and ability to fly modern airliners but there are not enough jobs. At the same time beancounters are looking at ways of saving money. Put the two together and the newbie will pay for a type rating. Things will only change if legislation intervenes making it illegal for inexperienced pilots to work in airlines, because demand will never exceed supply.

[Wally Mk2]

There's some very good posts here well articulated & researched.

At the end of the day being a pilot is simply learning a skill much like a trade & it's now become just a job with no security at all. The 'them & us' is always at the top of any cockpit discussion, that & poor rostering as well as constant changing of the rules leaves pilots with an uncertain future.
On the subject of paying for endo's/jobs.....well funnily enuf we have all been 'paying' for a job since the day we stepped aboard a training plane to become a commercial pilot, paying for a jet endo for Eg is just part of gathering tools of the trade.

Another thing that seems to keep disunity amongst pilots & therefore virtually not a chance of all sticking 2gether for the common case is the fact that there are still a lot of senior pilots in the system that had it good once upon a time, full service Airlines where T&C's where healthy, now those same older experienced pilots are amongst the younger newer pilots in LLC's who know no difference working for ruthless operators.
Supply & demand does exist but it's manipulated to suit the very few at the top, the worker drones at the bottom are but pawns to be used in a sick game of greed & short term gain.