View Full Version : Third airport for Melbourne ?
I just saw a brief article in the Herald Sun about a possible
third airport in Melbourne for domestic flights and they
mentioned Tyabb and Koo Wee Rup.
As well as saying it is only 1 hour from Melbourne :O
I was surprised at this. Do we really need a third airport
in the south east ?
Di_Vosh
8th Oct 2013, 22:02
Didn't that article come out a few months ago?
I remember reading (back in the late 90's) that the Geographical centre of Melbourne's population was in the vicinity of Glen Waverley. Since then there has been massive growth in the Western suburbs and in the northern suburbs, but I doubt that the "centre" has moved by more than a few kilometres.
Using that logic as a stand-alone, there would probably be a case for locating an airport in the south east (Not sure about that far south east though).
The cost-benefits would be doubtful, considering that you're only really talking about regional flights and flights to Sydney, Brisbane and Adelaide.
IMHO, developing Moorabbin airport so that it could take something like a Dash8-400 would be a better idea. A Q400 has a ML-SY flight time of around 75 minutes in nil wind and when you consider parking costs, commuting distance to the airport, etc, it would be a no-brainer for anyone living south of, say, Brighton.
DIVOSH!
P.S. EDIT: The above comments re: YMMB notwithstanding NIMBY noise issues, developmental costs, training impacts, etc, that have been covered ad-nauseam in other threads.
The Green Goblin
8th Oct 2013, 22:11
They're probably just taking the piss out of Sydney :)
I must have missed it if it did come out a few months ago.
Yes, the centre of Melb is about Glen Waverley.
I understand concerns re Tulla but Avalon, straight through run
on a freeway to Dandenong and beyond except at peak hour
doesn't take long at all.
But that is my view.
training wheels
8th Oct 2013, 23:08
It would be better to spend the money on a direct rail link to Avalon and Tulla IMHO. Many other major airports around the world has this, Sydney, Singapore, Kuala Lumpur, Bangkok, Beijing to name a few.
Agree. Tulla desperately needs a rail line of some sort.
Avalon has a train station not far away, just needs a decent
shuttle bus to and from it.
peterc005
8th Oct 2013, 23:44
Yes, a rail line to Tullamarine is essential.
Unfortunately the (Greek) taxi license owners will never let this happen and they are one part of the community that have a disproportionate political influence.
The rail line thru Sydney airport is a great and seamless service.
I see the owners of Melb airport are going to be building
another multi story car park.
So IMHO, less chance of rail.
Jethro Gibbs
9th Oct 2013, 00:46
Avalons not even 2nd yet nothing happening there .
Why not ?
Any particular reason ?
(I am not widely read on it).
Considering how long it takes to get things done in this country, planning a third Airport for Melbourne probably should start now.
It will take 30-40 years to start turning dirt and by that time Melbourne's population will be far greater than Sydney's.
When was the Badgery's Creek site bought??
Wally Mk2
9th Oct 2013, 03:03
"-438" that sums it up well as it takes so long for the waring unions, the political hot potato this subject causes amongst the so called 'leaders' of this corrupt country & the tree hugging greenie's all fighting their own reasons as to why & why not that another drome of any use in this country would take longer than we have had white settlement here!:ugh:
The taxi industry would kick up one hell of a stink having any sort of public transport heading out to Tulla.
We simply have to invent a better way to transport the masses around this wide open land if we are gunna continue to be the most backward thinking country in the western world, planes & all the associated infrastructure to support them are fast becoming like our roads, cactus!
I heard also recently that the Govt here in Vic are looking at halting the urban sprawl as it's really creating ghetto's of dis-functional sections in our society none of this helps this pie-in-the-sky hair-brain scheme of another drome!.
Wmk2
Good point.
Koo Wee Rup probably isn't a bad sight,
close to the bay, Freeway.
Be interesting to see the NIMBY replies
to the local newspapers this week.
Chocks Away
9th Oct 2013, 03:08
Melbourne was full of airports ontop of those already mentioned. Many aircraft were built & test flown there during WW2.
Laverton has gone, "Mumbai Cook" still there but down-sized, Essendon tapping along nicely with plenty of work while Avalon is looking bright: Libs (Sarah Henderson) have pushed through approval for an International Terminal at Avalon, additional to what's already there, plus a train station. The train/rail connection is a winner not only for pax but for freight & fresh produce, given it also sits on the "National Guage" line as well. Expect more hire car services etc their too. There is good interest from International pax & freight ops already.
Pity Melbourne's recently completed International Terminal expansion is already grid locked at certain times of the day, as demand is definitely there.
Jack Ranga
9th Oct 2013, 07:58
I dunno, 30 years to make a yay-nay decision (Badgery's Creek), not bad really, up there with worlds best practice. Should be up and running by what? 2045?
Going on that Melbourne's 3rd airport should be up by 2065?
Australia, the infrastructure kings! Leading the way ;)
ramble on
9th Oct 2013, 08:47
Australian infrastructure has become just an embarrassment
Jethro Gibbs
9th Oct 2013, 09:09
Avalon is looking bright
Please give me a break nothing is happening:ugh:
Wally Mk2
9th Oct 2013, 09:32
Hey guys what is this infrastructure you speak of??............:)
We've barely learnt how to understand how the traditional owners of Oz lived & survived in this harsh country with zero infrastructure (much like what we have now!) never lone make it workable for today's so called modern society!
...............in 200+ yrs we ain't come to far!
The next Ice Age is looking promising!:-)
Wmk2
parabellum
9th Oct 2013, 10:15
The 'third' airport for Melbourne, to the SE of the metropolitan area, places it in the Koo Wee Rup and Lang Lang region. It was actually planned about twenty five years ago but then dropped. An ideal area as it is so flat but will be subject to fog at certain times, so Cat 3 is essential as a starter.
My problem is that our rifle club is at Lang Lang, has great history, goes back at least 110 years, has Permissive Occupancy in Perpetuity, from the Commonwealth, subject to there being an active rifle club on site, it has been continuously active since 1923, resurrected after the First World War, so if they try to close that down there will be blood all over the floor.
But the deal could be that they have to build us a brand new range of equal facility! :E
Centaurus
9th Oct 2013, 10:34
My problem is that our rifle club is at Lang Lang, has great history, goes back at least 110 years
No problem and in fact a great advantage. Think of all the rifles aimed at keeping the birds away from the airport.:ok:
Most rifle ranges have a great range of bird life and animals
more than the standard bush.
Anyway, you have but bigger concentrations of birds at
Lang Lang and Stockyard point.
Nomde plume
9th Oct 2013, 11:44
will be subject to fog at certain times, so Cat 3 is essential as a starter.
2 CAT III installations in the melb basin? Little bit of over kill. Would be better off putting one in Sydney and just have to accept that you'll only get in if you're going in to Tulla.
cattletruck
9th Oct 2013, 12:40
Just extend Princess Pier :E
Or build it in the middle of Port Phillip Bay.
Toruk Macto
9th Oct 2013, 15:37
French Island , land has even been set aside for rail to service it .
That's a Mosquito infested hole if ever one existed !!!
parabellum
10th Oct 2013, 03:21
2 CAT III installations in the melb basin? Little bit of over kill. Would be better off putting one in Sydney and just have to accept that you'll only get in if you're going in to Tulla.
You are joking aren't you Nomde plume? Your remark, (above), is about as flat earth as you can get! Every major airport should be Cat 3 capable, especially new ones.
nitpicker330
10th Oct 2013, 03:58
Sydney is getting Cat 2 next year..
Nomde plume
10th Oct 2013, 06:33
Yes, A flat earth where user pays. Yes the area has fog problems, but rarely would it persist below cat I minimums after say 10am. What airlines would fund a cat III when Melbourne is 50 miles up the road? Assuming Melbourne still takes the internationals, all you would get is a dozen or so delays due fog each winter, as domestic you would know if you were getting in before you left. Hardly justifies cat III IMO. Sydney is where it's needed.
In hindsight we are talking 40+ years in the future. SBAS/WAAS/whatever they called it that given week will mean that you can fly cat III/II in to your mates driveway.
Ex Cargo Clown
10th Oct 2013, 08:07
Public transport at Tulla is an absolute scandel. Having worked there, any days I couldn't use the car and had to use public transport necessaitated that dreadful walk to Airport West to get the tram as I refused to pay the con-artist taxi drivers, or the rip-off bus service.
Contrast that with Manchester where I have also worked, which sits on a motorway network, has fantastic bus and coach connections, a mainline train station and soon will have a Metrolink tram connection.
Tulla is no better than a 3rd World airport, never mind building a new airport, sort Tulla out first. Oh, and living in the SE, the hideous Sh1ttylink charges don't help either.
Derfred
10th Oct 2013, 09:12
Don't worry... if they ever do build a train to Tulla, they'll make sure it's also a rip-off (like Sydney).
Considering Tullamarine was a Greenfields site, it just shows how bad
Australia has become at long term infrastructure planning.
Just my HO.
Wally Mk2
10th Oct 2013, 10:45
I seriously doubt there is a train station underneath Tulla drome, I worked there for many years & have been underground, all there is underground are rats & damp musty dirty long narrow tunnels designed for service pipes cabling etc.
The cost associated with making a train line out to Tulla would be horrendous & we are broke so the ticketing system would be a joke like the Billion dollar Myki crap!!!
We are stuck with poor forward planning by the so called expert boffins & there's nufin' we can do about it!:ugh:
Wmk2
waren9
10th Oct 2013, 12:31
as domestic you would know if you were getting in before you left.
ha ha been to mildura lately? some have
training wheels
10th Oct 2013, 12:40
The cost associated with making a train line out to Tulla would be horrendous & we are broke so the ticketing system would be a joke like the Billion dollar Myki crap!!!
It shouldn't be that costly, since all they need to do is branch off from the train line that's already there. I'm sure you've seen that railway bridge many times Wally when landing at YMEN's runway 17. It's the Broadmedows line if I'm not mistaken.
So ineffect, all they need to do is build another 8 KM of railway track from Airport West.
ChrisoColumbus
10th Oct 2013, 19:11
I think local people would be very happy to have better possibility to move from one place to another, Australia is quite huge.
Wally Mk2
10th Oct 2013, 21:51
Gee 'TW' you make it sound so cheap & easy there buddy:-) A feasibility study would takes years never lone trying to get the people of Tulla & surrounding burbs to give up large tracks of land/houses so only a small amount of people could use it. Remember a train line that is dedicated for one purpose (to get some pax to the airport) would not get patronized enough as it still means travellers would need to drive to these new railway stations, park for a fee I might add then again handle their luggage onto a train to get to the drome then do it all over again once at the drome, nope not gunna happen Aussies are too lazy & the new generations of kids growing up pretty much have the mentality 'I want it & I want it now' meaning they have little patients in general.
BTW that bridge you mention Nth of EN has nothing to do with the Broady line, the latter goes Nth from Spencer St station (Sth'ern X) as a passenger service thru te Nthern burbs where as the line you talk of goes west following the Western Ring Rd b4 it meanders towards the Broady line at around Jacana & it has no stops for passengers as it's mainly used for freight these days, modifying that is out of the question economically.
All in all we are stuck with the bus system & taxis to Tulla, clever planing......NOT!
Wmk2
parabellum
11th Oct 2013, 05:45
They make more out of car parking than they do out of landing fees at Tulla, so don't hold your breath for any changes in the near future.
training wheels
12th Oct 2013, 01:52
The corporation that runs the airport is expected to earn more than $100 million this financial year in fees from its 22,000 parking spaces.
That probably explains why there are no trains to Melbourne Airport. It's interesting that even before for Melbourne Airport was built, there were plans for a rail link to the airport.
Its predecessors didn't plan it this way. In 1963, seven years before the airport had even opened - but four years after the Commonwealth government had bought 5300 hectares of grasslands in then rural Tullamarine - conservative premier Sir Henry Bolte proposed a £2 million railway line through then empty fields near Broadmeadows. The planned rail link was scuttled after Labor joined forces with the Country Party to vote it down in the upper house in 1965.
From Various Websites Providing Evidence of the Suspected Station Underneath Melbourne Airport (http://www.facebook.com/notes/connect-melbourne-airports-train-station-built-in-1970/various-websites-providing-evidence-of-the-suspected-station-underneath-melbourn/222155061130652)
BNEA320
12th Oct 2013, 02:11
am sure I saw a photo of a 30 something seats Dornier 328 jet landing at Moorabbin during Avalon air show in 2001.
So if it can take a jet of this size & weight it can surely take Dash 8's, Saab 340's etc.
43Inches
12th Oct 2013, 04:37
So if it can take a jet of this size & weight it can surely take Dash 8's, Saab 340's etc.
If you check out the ERSA RDS section on YMMB you can see the actual runway length available with a low obstacle gradient is very restrictive. You could get aircraft this size in and out with a light load but not with viable passenger loads. You would need another 300m of runway and some chopping and digging in the departure splays for it to start being worthwhile.
Eastwest Loco
14th Oct 2013, 13:32
The main reason Tulla doesn't have a rail link is nothing but the Taxi lobby.
The have had a firm grip on the genitalia of the ruling party in Victoria for far too many years.
Even Geoff K wouldn't tilt at that windmill.
This would go back to the time Tulla was constructed and that would have been when they got their backs up. I would not be amazed at all if the infrastructure for a station is down there somewhere.
A decent sized airport in the South East has always made sense. Maybe level Chingvale and whack it in there. Not fit for WASPs anymore and definitely not safe at night so a bit of urban renewal would do some good.
Best all
EWL
How strong is the taxi lobby? What financial strings does it pull? Surely, a rail link to Tullamarine makes a lot of sense, just like it does for Perth airport. That one, is hopefully, on its way soon.
SOPS
The Taxi lobby in Vic is very strong, not as strong as it once was
but still strong.
Initially, as others have said it was the Taxi lobby but the way the
Airport makes money from the Car Parks, IMHO you now have
two factors working against a rail or tram system being built.
That's my HO.
peterc005
15th Oct 2013, 01:01
In Victoria members of the Greek community traditionally own a lot of the taxi licenses. A lot of these people started driving taxis when they came to Australia and ended up wealthy when they bought taxi licenses cheaply decades ago.
These taxi licenses are their investment nest eggs and superannuation.
Greeks are traditionally quite politically active, possibly because a lot of them moved here to get away from the Greek military junta at home.
The ALP in particular is over-represented with people of Greek heritage.
Jeff Kennet did make a lot of worthwhile changes to the taxi industry, but never a rail link.
A rail link to Tullamarine would destroy the greatest cash cow the taxi industry has and in turn screw up the value of taxi licenses held by these politically-savvy Greeks. With the parliamentary numbers so close in Victoria now the Greek taxi license holders could potentially decide the next government, so don't expect a rail link soon.
Maybe they need to build a zoo at Melbourne airport to contain the Kangaroos instead of letting them run around the Chemist Shop in the terminal :O