Afghanistan imploding again

[Onceapilot]

President Hamid Karzai has started the blame game. BBC reports him bleating. Wonder if he has bought property in Kensington?

OAP

[downsizer]

To be blunt, the corrupt cnut can Eff Off.....

[The Helpful Stacker]

What a cretinous turd. How many NATO service personnel have given their lives to try and drag his ring piece of a country from the dark ages to some form of civilisation, whilst also placing him in a rather comfortable position at the top of the pile?

I'd rather he just said "thank you".

[smujsmith]

His attitude, and constant whingeing should be remembered, about two months after the western forces withdraw, and he turns up claiming "asylum". Obviously anyone with his attitude is not worthy. Anyway, he would want to jump the waiting list for a council house.

Smudge :ok:

[Eclectic]

The billions the USA and UK sent to Afghanistan was largely creamed off by the ruling elite and invested in Dubai property. They are nicely set up for when the state collapses.
All our lives lost, all the injuries, all the money, all the equipment will all be for nothing. Just wasted. Thank you Bliar and Bush.

[500N]

Wouldn't the last 10 years have been different if

The US had got out of Afghanistan pretty quickly,
I think 2 or 3 years after they went in ?

Which would have allowed even more focus on Iraq
and if Bremer hadn't made such a balls up and no
insurgency had occurred.

So many lives wouldn't have been lost.

[BlindWingy]

Are you guys serious?

You expect him to thank NATO?

It's the only tactic he has to counter the view that he is a puppet.

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

Wouldn't it also have been different if the US and its bezzy mates allies had just gone for the Terr training and holding camps without taking on their resident Nation and wrecking its core infrastructure. As Gen (Rtd) Colin Powell said at the time; you break it, you own it.

As regards that great diversion Iraq, I recall that the head sheds of a number of Governments told a few fibs about the excuse.

[S78]

Karzai's latest statement was meant to reassure the female population that they have nothing to fear from the return of the Taliban.


-unless you have a job, or go to school.....:suspect:

[500N]

Or are a little girl who they have already shot once
and have just stated they will do so again.

[Lonewolf_50]

Let them eat yellow cake.

[Wycombe]

Wonder if he has bought property in Kensington?

If so, one hopes that he will never be allowed to live in it, or be allowed the priviledge of entering the Country that has given so much to try to prevent the return of his homeland to the middle ages.

Having just seen his interview on the Beeb 10 0'clock I'm almost as enraged that our Govt has allowed itself to be taken in by this crook.

[VinRouge]

The drug addict is welcome to his turd of a country.

Lets just get the lads and the kit home safely, and leave the sh£thole behind.

I hope NATO have learned their lesson.that being you can't tame Afghanistan. All they will know is sorrow, pity and civil war.

[Thomas coupling]

Our politicians will never learn. Someone in western power will do it all over again in the not too distant future and take another couple of thousand troops with them! Iran/N Korea/Syria/N Africa/Somalia/Ethiopia/Georgia.
It is the way of the world.
Simple law abiding folk saw Iraq and Afghanistan turn into a debacle before they even started - and still we stood back and allowed it to happen.
Man is a war monger - simples!

As for Karzai - he is now preparing the way to safeguard his future both from a financial and a survival perspective. The Taliban will rule Afghan within months, not years............

When will we ever learn?:ugh:

[500N]

Agree re it will be done again.

This time, sort out the ROE before they go on and if they can't do it
without one hand tied, then don't do it. And everyone on the same ROE,
it must be crazy trying to run a war.

[bcgallacher]

His property is in Dubai - his brother was detained at customs there with 30 million dollars in cash when entering the country. Within days of the withdrawal of foreign armed forces the country will revert to the same medieval shambles of ignorance and cruelty it always was - Karzai will not be there to see it,he will be lying beside the pool in his villa in Dubai.

[TBM-Legend]

who were we trying to kid in thinking that we could bring peace and democracy to one of the World's most lawless tribal areas - and has been thus for eons?

So many young lives wasted and families affected..

:yuk: pox on the politicians and their "advisors".

[Cows getting bigger]

It is the Muslim/Arab way.

I recollect my time in Afghanistan (Op VERTAS 2001-2002) wondering where it was all going. Sure, a Bin Laden hunt was necessary but all the rest?

[Sun Who]

This made me angry.:mad:

Watch to conclusion if you want your dander properly raised.

BBC News - Hamid Karzai speaks exclusively to the BBC's Yalda Hakim (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-24435776)

Sun.

[dead_pan]

Sure, a Bin Laden hunt was necessary but all the rest?

Indeed. It was never really evident back then what the end-game would be. As with Iraq, it was a case of install a puppet government, rebuild some stuff we broke, train some of their guys to be policemen and soldiers, then beat a hasty retreat for the exit, declaring "job done".

We could have saved ourselves a whole heap of heartache and treasure if we stuck to the original model of using SF teams on the ground and B52s in racetracks overhead.

[VinRouge]

And on a lighter note....

Video: Banksy releases 'Rebel Rocket Attack' video - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/culturevideo/10361257/Banksy-releases-Rebel-Rocket-Attack-video.html)

[VinRouge]

We could have saved ourselves a whole heap of heartache and treasure if we stuck to the original model of using SF teams on the ground and B52s in racetracks overhead.

That didn't give the army generals a reason d'être to justify a large army budget for the next couple of decades though. We went boots on the ground for one reason. Large land armies have become irrelevant.

I hope those in the decision chain hang their head in shame over the suffering they caused, that's on both sides.

[Alber Ratman]

Quality find Vin Rogue..:D

Biggest problem is the country next door to Afghanistan.. They have nukes though and isn't the one one to the north.

[melmothtw]

That didn't give the army generals a reason d'être to justify a large army budget for the next couple of decades though. We went boots on the ground for one reason. Large land armies have become irrelevant.

I hope those in the decision chain hang their head in shame over the suffering they caused, that's on both sides.


It's very easy to be wise after the event, but during the early years (before the West was distracted by Iraq) there was widespread public support for our efforts in rebuilding Afghanistan. Indeed, it was often said that Iraq was the 'bad' war, while Afghanistan was the 'good' war.

[AtomKraft]

There were plenty of folk who were wise BEFORE the event.

And not just on Afghanistan.

[VinRouge]

It's very easy to be wise after the event, but during the early years (before the West was distracted by Iraq) there was widespread public support for our efforts in rebuilding Afghanistan.

Thats stretching facts. Before Iraq, ISAF were involved in a very limited basis in Afghanistan. It wasnt until October 2003 that the UN authorised a much expanded mission, which included delving into Helmand province around 2006, which as anyone who has been there will know, is a much different kettle of fish to the areas we were involved in prior to that point. Before then, much of our efforts were focussed in the north, as commented above here on a much tighter set of terms of reference which were focussed primarily on fighting terrorism in the middle east. I dont see much of that going on in the south.

To my memory, the only British public who wanted to expand the mission were those who were lifelong knuckle dragging labour voters, who fell for John Reids "no shots fired speech". Didnt exactly go to their plan, did it?

At what point was it explained to the british public that we were transitioning from a terrorist fighting force to one that targeted an ethnic pashtun organisation that has to my knowledge, never been involved with terrorism in the west?

[Thelma Viaduct]

Can't remember Afghanistan asking to be invaded, much like Iraq.

It was bound to fail again, not sure where the surprise is??? Same wankers on here saying it was legitimate, honest etc etc

Not sure I'd fancy dieing for a ****hole, even if it did bring 'democracy' or whatever that means. Again like Iraq, hundreds of UK forces dead or maimed for no real reason, families left to suffer with their politician/media implanted version of heroism. Dieing for no reason is not heroic, it's tragic.

As a side note, it cost billions, so a big well done to those that decided invading another ****hole was a good idea.

[melmothtw]

Can't remember Afghanistan asking to be invaded


I don't remember the US asking to be attacked on 9/11. If the Taliban had given up the al Qaeda leadership in the immediate aftermath, as they were asked to do, then there would have been no reason to invade Afghanistan at all.

Whether or not we should have stayed after having routed the Taliban is open to speculation, but the reason for going in in the first place is pretty clear cut.

Same wankers on here...

Ha, you got my number!!

[melmothtw]

Thats stretching facts. Before Iraq, ISAF were involved in a very limited basis in Afghanistan. It wasnt until October 2003 that the UN authorised a much expanded mission, which included delving into Helmand province around 2006, which as anyone who has been there will know, is a much different kettle of fish to the areas we were involved in prior to that point. Before then, much of our efforts were focussed in the north, as commented above here on a much tighter set of terms of reference which were focussed primarily on fighting terrorism in the middle east. I dont see much of that going on in the south.

To my memory, the only British public who wanted to expand the mission were those who were lifelong knuckle dragging labour voters, who fell for John Reids "no shots fired speech". Didnt exactly go to their plan, did it?

At what point was it explained to the british public that we were transitioning from a terrorist fighting force to one that targeted an ethnic pashtun organisation that has to my knowledge, never been involved with terrorism in the west?


It seems from your response that you feel the mistake to have been our involvement in Helmand, rather than our wider involvement in Afghanistan.

Our expansion into southern Afghanistan was a mistake in so far as it was underplanned and undermanned. That's not the same as saying it was a mistake to have attempted it, however, as you can't build a stable country (which is what everyone wanted to see in Afghanistan) if half of its territory is outside of government control.

To my memory, the only British public who wanted to expand the mission were those who were lifelong knuckle dragging labour voters, who fell for John Reids "no shots fired speech".

I recall events differently (and no, I am not and never have been a "knuckle dragging labour voter"). At the time, the mainstream media and the majority of the public saw Afghanistan as 'the good war', and were keen to see it succeed. Hindsight skews our perceptions of Afghanistan in that we assume it was always unpopular. This just isn't the case.

Didnt exactly go to their plan, did it?

No, it didn't.

[His dudeness]

Can't remember Afghanistan asking to be invaded

I don't remember the US asking to be attacked on 9/11.

I don´t remember Afghanistan being involved in 9/11 at all.

If the Taliban had given up the al Qaeda leadership in the immediate aftermath, as they were asked to do, then there would have been no reason to invade Afghanistan at all.

So, for example, if we Germans think the Heads of the Russian Mafia are in in Russia, we are okay to invade them ? Or the Italian Mafia ? Invade Italy ?

(remember that the US made us regret having invaded 'some' countries?)

How is it that a complete country is responsible for an act of terror by Saudi Arabians? And why have the US not invaded Saudi Arabia?

Sumthin does not add up here, IMHO.

[VinRouge]

you could argue afghanistan was a stable country under the Taliban. Abhorrent maybe, but for the layperson in the street, arguably more stable than it is now.

[melmothtw]

you could argue afghanistan was a stable country under the Taliban. Abhorrent maybe, but for the layperson in the street, arguably more stable than it is now.


Yes, you certainly could argue that. However, I think that's largely down to how the war has been conducted and managed rather thay why it was waged in the first place.


I don´t remember Afghanistan being involved in 9/11 at all


You answer yourself HD in quoting my reference to al Qaeda's relationship with the Taliban directly beneath. I see what you're saying about invading Russia and Italy to get at criminal gangs operating in those countries. You could put the same argument about the UK invading Ireland to get at the IRA.

However, I feel your analogy is flawed. Let's be clear - al Qaeda were not operating in Afghanistan in defiance of the Taliban's wishes (as is the case with the examples you cite), but were there as the Taliban's guests.

Afghanistan under the Taliban was internationally recognised as a failed / pariah state (in much the same way as Somalia is now). This is the reason why there was a concerted campaign to stop the Taliban taking up Afghanistan's seat at the UN pre-2001. In such cases, you cannot enter into inter-governmental judicial treaties that cover extradition and the like. The only alternative was to go in and flush them out ourselves.

[Thomas coupling]

Iraq was also "stable" under Saddam until Kuwait. Libya was very stable under Gadaffi too.
Why do we westerners think we can make a difference?

Syria is the way ahead: Let them get on with it and wipe eachother out. Saves us time, effort and loads of money to pour back into the debt ridden democracies we live in.

All these 'well wishers' suggesting we "help these and aid those". Not a whisker of a difference comes from it except the loss of life and destruction brought on by western societies on eastern life styles.
Well wish for something constructive will you? Wish for literacy and poverty levels to stabilise and reverse; for young people to get a foothold in society, for debt to be eradicated in OUR OWN WORLD!

I pray and hope that remote and clinical warfare takes over - sooner than later and the politicians can "work from Home" by destroying who the hell they like from the comfort of their own laptops!:yuk:

[Thelma Viaduct]

"I don't remember the US asking to be attacked on 9/11."

The definition of naivety.

[melmothtw]

Can't remember Afghanistan asking to be invaded...

Right back at you PP.

[Torque Tonight]

Our money, time and lives would have been better spent just building a 50ft wall right around Afghanistan's border. They can live the medieval, tribal, fundamentalist dream to their hearts' content.

Mr Karzai said his priority for his remaining days in office was to forge a peace agreement with the Taliban and said the insurgents could eventually take up roles within the government.

"They are Afghans. Where the Afghan president, the Afghan government can appoint the Taliban to a government job they are welcome," he said.

Nothing we can do can drag this dump into the modern, civilized world, and neither do they want to be dragged that way. I wait with interest to see which will be the next empire to waste a decade or two in the Stan. There is a certain pattern to this place. Nothing changes.

[AtomKraft]

Americans. There was no excuse for the attack on 9/11.

But, if you think that someone just woke up one morning, and decided, for no good reason, to mount the attack....well, that would be naïve.

It's fun to **** down their neck for decades, but don't act all outraged if they jump up one day, and bite you in the ass.

Because that's precisely what happened on 9/11.

[melmothtw]

Americans. There was no excuse for the attack on 9/11.

But, if you think that someone just woke up one morning, and decided, for no good reason, to mount the attack....well, that would be naïve.

It's fun to **** down their neck for decades, but don't act all outraged if they jump up one day, and bite you in the ass.

Because that's precisely what happened on 9/11


Agreed, but then don't act all surprised and outraged when the Americans decide to respond in kind...


PS; I'm not American.

[AtomKraft]

Melmoth Thanks for clearing that up.

I think the behaviour of the US as a State, rather neatly mirrors the behaviour of the average US infantry platoon.

Someone fires a couple of shots in their proximity and suddenly the air is filled with 5.56 flying in every direction, and hitting all and sundry-apart from the desired target.

Result?

Ammo expended, no of enemies increased, progress made? Bugger all!

[VinRouge]

from now on, one is hoping no more regular boots on the ground. the message should be that the west can and will execute ops to take out those who mean to do the west harm. very much like a child can fry an ant with a magnifying glass if they so choose.

I can only see one way out of extreme salafist views. leave them to their country, then squish them wherever they pose a threat, using air power, using completely disproportionate force.

[langleybaston]

I saw a little bit of the interview before I

a. spillt some very good red wine and

b. got very noisy

after which Mrs LB advised turning the box off, perhaps wise under the circumstances.

I did like the cretinous turd phrase penned early on, except old Karzi is a cunning bastard and runs rings round western governments. A pox and a murrain* on him.

* Murrain does not refer to any specific disease but was an umbrella term for a number of different diseases, including rinderpest, erysipelas, foot-and-mouth disease, anthrax, and streptococcus infections. Some of the diseases could also affect humans.

[The Helpful Stacker]

'Op Ground Zero Ocean' increasingly seems like a sound solution to the Middle East problem.

Spent all that money building Tridents, would be a shame to waste them......

;)

[His dudeness]

However, I feel your analogy is flawed. Let's be clear - al Qaeda were not operating in Afghanistan in defiance of the Taliban's wishes (as is the case with the examples you cite), but were there as the Taliban's guests.

Afghanistan under the Taliban was internationally recognised as a failed / pariah state (in much the same way as Somalia is now). This is the reason why there was a concerted campaign to stop the Taliban taking up Afghanistan's seat at the UN pre-2001. In such cases, you cannot enter into inter-governmental judicial treaties that cover extradition and the like. The only alternative was to go in and flush them out ourselves.

Of course my analogy is sort of flawed, still we have the problem "Afghanistan" was NOT responsible, even though 'they' (the taliban) gave Al-Quaida shelter. (or were unwilling to give them to the 'mericans)

Its worth to remember all the colleteral damage - as soldiers so neatly put it - did not help the western cause at all. And anyone with a little bit of thinking left would know that before the invasion.

I feel very strongly about the politicians that sent troops there, as German mainly about the idiots that sent our troops there. "Germany is being defended at the Hindukush mountains" was one of the slogans used. Just plain BS.

All the killed soldiers, regardless of which nationality, are just wasted and their cause was lost on day one. They are victims of our governments IMO. As are thousands of civilians in AFG.

[Lonewolf_50]

US tells Karzai "Sign Security Deal or we leave (http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/11/26/21620885-us-to-afghanistans-karzai-sign-security-deal-or-well-pull-out-all-troops-next-year?lite)."
Expected Karzai response: "See ya!" This is more or less what the folks in Iraq did when the SoF agreement would not fly.

In other news, Afghanistan wants to go back to stoning audlterers (http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/11/25/21609525-stoning-for-adulterers-may-become-legal-again-in-afghanistan?lite), which was apparently their law before all of these interfering foreigners showed up.

To thine own selves, be true.

I once heard a saying that seems to apply here: one cannot polish a turd. Another saying I once heard was that one cannot inflict democracy upon a nation at the point of a bayonet. It has to grow from the ground up.

Something like that.

[melmothtw]

one cannot polish a turd



No true, as demonstrated in this episode of Mythbusters...

Mythbusters Polishing a Turd - YouTube

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

It might be more accurate to say "It is pointless to polish a turd".

[Lonewolf_50]

mel:
You are free to retrieve your own turds from your next stool, and polish away.

Let us know how it went. :sad:

Fox3: point taken. :ok:

[carlrsymington]

But you can roll it in glitter;)

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Why shouldn't the Afghanis stone adulterers? Saudi Arabia does* and that doesn't stop most western Governments doing business with the House of Saud?


Reserves the right to, but usually carries out about 100 public beheadings a year instead (including one last year for sorcery)..so that's all right then.

[air pig]

F3WMB, Why shouldn't the Afghanis stone adulterers? Saudi Arabia does* and that doesn't stop most western Governments doing business with the House of Saud?


Reserves the right to, but usually carries out about 100 public beheadings a year instead (including one last year for sorcery)..so that's all right then.

You make a valid point, you cannot drag these countries from the 5th century into the 21st without using an awful lot of nuclear weapons and starting again from scratch or fence them off and let them kill each other. Certain Middle East countries would be back in the dark ages literally if all the western and educated Asian ex-pats pulled out tomorrow. These states have few indigenous population willing to put their noses to the grindstone and work for a living.

[finestkind]

Air pig.

Quite correct. That part of the world has primarily been a herding lifestyle, watching the goats, sheep, camel procreate whilst sucking on the hubbly bubbly with the slaves doing any required manual labour.

Practically speaking the western world went from a subsidence survival culture to a work for luxury (keep up with the Jones) culture with the industrial revolution, over 4 or 5 generations. Where dad went from working hard just to feed the family to working hard for rewards. The Middle East culture has gone from a nomadic survival culture to “sheet look at all the money we have from our oil” without learning to toil. Hence no idea of how to put said nose (and they are beauties) to grindstone.

[ShotOne]

Imploding "again"?? Surely that's a description of normal operations there

[MarkJJ]

One of the first rules of a counter insurgency is political primacy. Political direction and the desired effects have been poor at best for both Iraq and Afgan. So epic fail and strategic defeat would be a fair assessment for UK. I'd say we have been very lucky on the ground, and, as usual we have got away with it. I dare say at times a more well trained, we'll co-ordinated enemy would have and could have over run various locations at various times, with disastrous consequences.