China Southern B787/777 Captain

[flamingmoe]

I have an intrerview coming up very soon with CSA for a LHR base, is anyone currently doing this contract who can offer some advice on the interview process, rosters etc?

[4redsyourdead]

Not much help but I do know six guys in my base went and only one got hired. Apprently for DEC it was more the medical examinations that were there biggest stumbling blocks. Sure others will be more help.

[flamingmoe]

Cheers 4reds, what type are they currently flying? I have heard that the astronaut medical is a big stumbling block, no beers for the next couple of weeks for me!

[4redsyourdead]

They all had over 10,000tt flying the 737 with most being TRI/TRE qualified. Good luck :)

[Sunrig]

On the first day you just arrive and check into the hotel and get some rest. The next day you have to do the chinese ATP written test. It' s 100 questions in two and a half hours. Shouldn't be a problem with a bit of study. You need at least 70%. In the afternoon you go to the uniform fitting. Then in the evening you will go by bus to Zuhai which is about two hours from Guangzhou. There you might get the briefing for the sim check. On the third day will be the sim evaluation. They usually stick to the profile you get from your agency. It' s a busy session with a lot of handflying and raw data. So make sure you're at your best flying/ handling skills. Be prepared to get no debrief at all after the sim. It seems like close to 80% fail the sim!
When you pass the sim you have the first part of the medical the next day. After that you can go home and have to return a month later for the second part of the medical. Needless to say that a lot of guys fail the medical as well...
Best of luck!

[flamingmoe]

Cheers Sunrig, did you get through?

[ao767]

The info sunrig posted is pretty right, 70% failed sim on my screening a few weeks back, all good guys with lots of experience. The medical was split into 2 parts when I did it, day 1 the basics of chest X-ray, blood pressure, physical, ultrasound, blood test etc. The rest of the medical is completed on day 5, but only by those that have passed the sim, it includes MRI of brain, stress ECG on treadmill, ultrasound of heart and main artery. The ATPL exam requires a lot of study as the CAAC data base seems to be throwing out a number of new & previously unseen questions, all of no real use or practical application. Sim ride varies depending on which aircraft you do it on, but do any sim practise you can get or sim supports for your mates if you can get them. 5 out of 15 passed on the 737, 1 on 767, 1 on 777 & 1 on airbus, the guys who failed had reasons given they all varied. The screening week is very stressful and only those that have completed it would understand, go with the flow & do what they ask of you it is a good workout. Yes I got through.

[roger les]

Ao767 would it help going thru any of the FAA ATPL reviewers like ASA Publications or the Gleim test prep. An ex colleague now working in China says the test is patterned after the FAA exam. Which specific test preps did you prepare on? Longreach China also advertises a basing in Sydney. Would Sydney basing be available for the B787? Thanks in advance.:ok:

[flamingmoe]

Australian ports are all A330 at this stage Roger, you would have to commute out of Auckland to live in Sydney, that can all change of course, but the agency I'm going through said they were unaware of any plans to send the 787 or 777 to Oz.

[oldhasbeen]

Now there's a confidence killer...failing a sim by the chinese. :(

[737lpa]

The information is pretty right. I have also passed the screening on the second week of August. The ATPL is not a deal breaker, as they let you come back once to repeat it. You need a 70 or better out of 100 multiple choice questions (only a,b,c). The ones who pass do it with a 72 or so and the ones who fail do it with a 67 or 68, so it's all up to 4 or 5 questions. I was on the lucky side and what really matters is to study as many banks of questions as you can. Just google Chinese ATPL and you will find a bunch on the net. It's very similar to the FAA ATPL so the GLEIM book is definitely a good help.

In any case, everyone makes it to the SIM, weather you fail the written or not. They give you a SIM profile and they stick to it. It doesn't have anything you haven't seen before, but it is tiring as most of it is flown by hand on raw data (no FD's). You will do it on your present ACFT and they even let you use your own checklists and SOP's. 4 hours total (2 each). I did it on the B737 and I found particularly difficult the windshear right after takeoff. I firewalled the thrust levers and kept pulling up to the stick shaker and even then I was getting no climb. I ended up banking left and right to avoid the buildings and I thought we were dead, but at the end it started climbing again.

They also do "map shifting" for the SE RAW data ILS, which means that if you are spot on on the LOC, the magenta line on the MAP display will be left/right of the ACFT symbol which is contradictory and confusing. They really want you to ignore the MAP/FMC data and just fly the needle, which was difficult for me as it's something you never do on the line.

I won't comment the medical because you are in the hands of God. In any case you only receive the medical results 3 weeks after the screening (that was my case).

All in all, I personally received a very good treatment with high levels of courtesy. They paid for everything including all meals. It's just a bit boring eating noodles 3 times a day. We definitely appreciated our beers and a fat burger on the last day on an Irish pub, which seemed like an embassy to all of us.

My recommendation is not to get crazy with the ATPL as the SIM is the deal breaker. I don't think you need any hours on the SIM (I didn't get any). You just review the QRH for the events on the profile and keep your concentration high along with your courtesy levels.

Fire away if you need any further details and good luck to everyone...

[Iver]

Just curious about the flying itself. Is it pretty much UK-to-China and back or do pilots fly onward to Australia, other Asian 787 destinations, etc.?

[Utrinque]

they now want a 20K USD bank guarantee before you start. Check with your agencies. A deal breaker for most.

[Mr_ATPL]

Does anyone know what a typical roster looks likes for expats based in USA/Europe/Auckland?

[stampee]

737IPA

I also passed the screening in early August. Has anyone actually got a start date yet? I've been chasing documents down for two months but have been given no information from CS regarding possible start dates or aircraft type yet.

[WYOMINGPILOT]

A friend of mine also passed the screening recently but will most likely not go. The terms are vague and seem to be rapidly changing. The earliest class will most likely no be until March 2014. The contract has 3 options but is not what it really seems. For example one option is 45 days on and 14 days off. What this really means is in a 2 month period you will have 14 days free from duty NOT in one block. The other option is listed as a BNE or MEL option. This will not be what it really seems. You may start in MEL but go fly a 7 day trip ending in Guanzhou with only 2 days off. Your next sequence will start and end in Guanzhou. You may on occasion get a trip which starts and ends in MEL but don't count on it. The other option is a 20 days on and 10 off, but the pay is reduced to only 13K per month. The 20K bond will be in effect. Non rated pilots will be Cruise Captains for a minimum of 1 year and NOT the PIC. There are A-320 contracts paying 20K plus per month and 6 weeks on and 16 days off which are much more attractive.

[woodja51]

Not sure where this bond thing is coming from guys? The master contract requires THE AGENCY to pay CSA if you resign inside two years post the type rating... This is then reflected in the contract that you sign with the agency....

NOW if your agency is making you put up a bank guarantee or cash up front , flick them OFF !!! If you resign inside of the period, YOU ARE LIABLE for the amount remaining TO THE AGENCY.

My point is , some agencies are prepared to take the risk ( and chase you for it if you leave ) , others, such as PARC dont want the risk and are asking you to stump up I think...

Does that clear up the concept?

I am 330 MEL based and it is a great gig... Not perfect, but for guys looking to get a widebody endorsement etc it is pretty good. The rosters for the 777 guys will be pretty good I reckon ... And for the few pilots living iN GZ , they seem to be enjoying it ... The two italian guys here on the 330 are opening a restaraunt with the coach of the GZ soccer team ... So plenty to think about...

Come prepared if you are off a narrow body as the pass rate is low ... CSA do not like 'oleary one ' high energy arrivals with gear at 1200 ' etc!!! Back it all up to above 1500' (final stabilisation) , and practice some hand flying and you will do ok...if the medical doesnt knock you out which is random and genetics!

Go to ... Longreachchina.com for a list of FAQs ( no bond!)

[de facto]

. You just review the QRH for the events on the profile and keep your concentration high along with your courtesy levels.

By maintaining that exact attitude,I can tell you that your stay will be a breezer.
Good on you:ok:

[mach85]

Hi WYOMINGPILOT,

Just wondering where you got the info on non-rated DEC's being given only cruise captain position for the first year? Is it a real cruise captain position i.e No controls below 10000' or are you just 'Junior Captain' to the Chinese counterpart you are heavy crewed up with??

If its a real cruise Captain position then i guess it could be a deal breaker for many.

Best regards :)

[stampee]

My understanding is you are just rosters as the junior Captain until they are confident you have enough company and route experience. I was told you will still be doing your share of take offs and landings. Apparently FOs are not permitted to operate as PF with foreign Captains.

[mach85]

Stampee,

Thanks for the info. That is what i had heard too but the proposed terms of this contract seem to change daily so you never know i guess :)

Thanks again. All the best

[kungfu panda]

Think very carefully about working in China. The medical is very difficult at selection but then it never gets any easier once employed.

Chinese Airlines are heamoraging qualified Pilots at a rate of around 10% per year. It really is just a matter of time before it is your turn.

[de facto]

Kungfu,

How long have you worked in china for?:E

[sfoxs]

For training purposes only of course can any of you tell me how long you are on the treadmill on the last day of screening?
Thanks

[de facto]

It is not an endurance exercise...if you are athletic/marathon runner,make sure you tell them (so they increase the belt speed)or they may fail you for having too slow of an heart beat.
If you are too fat,lets hope your heart doesnt go too fast either.
If you are standard guy,dont worry about it.

[737lpa]

Hi Stampee,

Sorry for the late reply.

I'm also in the middle of my paperwork gathering. Almost all done except for the No Accident / Incident letter which I have no idea where to obtain it from.

I obviously do not want to resign from my present job until I sign another contract, so I don't know how to get that letter. We'll see...

I don't have any reasons to believe that the job is for a cruise captain or junior captain. Everyone has literally been asking that question and we have been told over and over that the job is for captain = PIC. At present, I have no choice but to believe CSA and Parc over some anonymous comment on Pprnue.

The treadmill is not difficult. I'm a smoker and I did not find it hard at all. Just brink your sneakers and a pair of shorts and make sure you shave your chest.

In regards to the bond, I must say that it is pretty standard to be bonded on to a new type rating nowdays on almost any airline. I personally don't find it a deal breaker because I've been bonded before.

The message I personally received from a A330 skipper doing this contract from Brisbane who we personally met during the medical screening, is that the job is the best gig in Asia at the moment, and that he is flying to/from home on his rotations, which in turn means that is home for about 15 days a month.

Good luck to everyone!

[William73]

G'day,

Anyone could share the sim assessement details done on 744 for the 777/787 with CSA?

Would a commuting from a base not included in those mentioned, be something possible, regarding the days OFF between flights?
e.g. based in GZ under Mode A rostering but commuting from SIN between flights.

Many thanks for any informations.

[ao767]

Post 16 by Wyomingpilot is not even close to accurate, there are plenty of guys on the A330 in Australia with rosters over the last 2 years that can refute those comments. The bond seems to depend on agency as both Longreach and GABS have both denied in writing a pre paid bond is required. P1 seems to be the norm but with Chinese captain as PIC but then again there are not enough foreign pilots to run with 2 on each flight. Rostering 787 is a huge guess as currently only GZ based and off to LHR so no real guess where you will go, if you use the A330 in Aust as an indication, we were told you could do GZ returns or ask to go on further in the network, 787 flight times shows 24 hours return to GZ maybe woodja51 can comment on A330 rosters. They have confirmed enough guys now through screening successfully to confirm Auckland NZ base will go ahead.

[Karunch]

P1 seems to be the norm but with Chinese captain as PIC but then again there are not enough foreign pilots to run with 2 on each flight

A PRC carrier a little to the north of GZ that has had foreign based Capts for over 6 years now, has & will not ever crew flights with 2 x foreign Capts. Its a trust issue, most likely an unofficial Caac policy.

There can only be one PIC on a flight- the designated P1. Even the previously rated 330 Capts at CZ have been flying as P2 for 12 months now, non-rated pilots will take significantly longer. As P2 or FO your log book is signed off by the PIC at the end of each flight so no chance you could present this elsewhere as anything other than relief time.

While the contract terms may not be changing, the 'interpretation' of terms will change and you can be sure it will not be to the pilots advantage. This of course is not peculiar to aviation dealings with the Chinese.

Good luck.

[737lpa]

How about if you're rostered a 3 hr domestic flight which does not require relief crew. You think you will be PIC or not?

[Karunch]

The foreign A330 Capts at CSA are not doing domestic flights yet (after 12 months there and previously rated on the A330). One of the benefits of not not being cleared as Pic. Some of the local Capts at my airline even decline the upgrade for this reason.

We still launch with minimum three crew on domestic flights- Capt, FO & radio operator (junior FO).

[flamingmoe]

Can anyone from within CSA comment on the likelihood of either the 777 or 787 doing any Australian routes?

[ao767]

Second hand only, heard from guys already there, no plans to change any Australian ports to Boeing aircraft in the future.

[A-3TWENTY]

Being in China for 4 years,I can tell you guys the info posted here are very accurate. I'm not with CS but some stuff are the same for all companies either because it is a CAAC rule or because it is the way it is in China.

1. Contacts are ONLY guidelines.
2. They do need pilots,but they get rid of you very easily
3.in China you don't need to bea good pilot.You need to be lucky.
4.the medicals do keep grounding people even when you are already flying in the company.In my company,we are 40 and in 4 years, 7 lost their medical for good.In China,of course. EVERY 6 month some of us have to repeat exams because something was not at an astronaut standard.

5.For non type rated.Expect to be on the right for well over a year.apparently CAAC Directive?!

6.VERY IMPORTANT, !!! The agency. Parc is no longer what it used to be.Just another one . Brookfield would not be my option at all. The Best around is GPS.I'm not with them unfortunately,but everyone with them is happy.

7.You don't need to be a :mad: sucker in China. Some guys have tripled their wrinkles and bent their spine for that.Just be respectful,good courtesy and professional.


Good luck to you all

[ponyboy13]

Woodya wrote,


"NOW if your agency is making you put up a bank guarantee or cash up front , flick them OFF !!! If you resign inside of the period, YOU ARE LIABLE for the amount remaining TO THE AGENCY.

My point is , some agencies are prepared to take the risk ( and chase you for it if you leave ) , others, such as PARC dont want the risk and are asking you to stump up I think... "

Longreach China are now asking for the cash up front.I wonder why the change
in policy?

GABS the only company I know of that is not.