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G-CPTN
3rd Oct 2013, 18:56
Apparently, when the boat engine failed, someone decided to light a fire to attract the attention of passing boats . . . :ugh:

The migrants said they set fire to a blanket on the boat a few hundred metres (yards) from the shore to attract the attention of coast guards after their vessel suffered engine failure and passing fishing boats ignored them. The fire then spread quickly, sowing panic on board which caused the boat to flip over and eventually sink, as desperate passengers jumped into the water.


At least it wasn't a mechanic smoking whilst they fixed the fuel leak . . .

rgbrock1
3rd Oct 2013, 18:58
They seem to be quite high on the list of Darwin Award candidates, no?

Would be somewhat similar, in effect, to firing up ones cigarette lighter at the gas pump, gas nozzle in hand, because "I couldn't read the price on the pump gauge*"

*this actually happened. In NYC of course. Kaboooommmmm.

KAG
3rd Oct 2013, 20:24
I am not sure this is the best time for jokes, many people died.
My thoughts for them.

Lonewolf_50
3rd Oct 2013, 21:09
This incident reminds me of one back in the 90's when a bunch of "refugees" (Albanian) in an overcrowded boat were trying to illegally enter Italian waters and it tipped over and many of them died. Seventy or more was the final shark feed amount, IIRC.

You take the risks, you get the reward or the watery grave.

500N
3rd Oct 2013, 21:09
rgb

"They seem to be quite high on the list of Darwin Award candidates, no?"

We have so many of these type of incidences that the people of Aus
have become immune to them and actually gone from feeling sorry
for them to a "who cares, we don't want them" attitude that caused
the change of Gov't a few weeks ago.

Our asylum seekers over crowd rickety boats, phone the Aust gov't saying
they are sinking expecting our "Navy Taxi service" to pick them up,
sink the boat as soon as they see one of our ships, set fire to the boat
while Navy people are on it and numerous others, apart from the just
sinking in rough seas, all of which have disastrous consequences.
I think we are up to 1500 dead in the last 4 years (but that was
before the last two boats that sank in the last few days that would
add another 100 or so (which Aus got blamed for even though it
occurred in Indonesian waters).

They pay thousands of $$$$ to get on these boats yet no one thinks
of putting food, water or life jackets on them for the kids that can't swim.


KAG
You should come to Aus, the Greens Party would love you.

Sallyann1234
3rd Oct 2013, 21:18
Meanwhile the scum who organise the boats and take the money from desperate refugees get away scot free. I don't suppose the villages where the poor sods come from ever hear of their fate.

500N
3rd Oct 2013, 21:23
Sally

Agree.

We (as in Aus) have locked up a few and a few have been arrested in
Indo but most in the food chain seem to get away with it.

tony draper
3rd Oct 2013, 22:09
I can see in a few years that the developed world will drop out of the United Nations Convention on Refugees,or they will if they want to survive.

500N
3rd Oct 2013, 22:13
A few in Aus have called for it and even the Gov't has mentioned it.

It needs to be two sided, ATM the UN berates Australia but
doesn't seem to do that much berating of Indonesia where they
would probably be told to FO.

Worrals in the wilds
3rd Oct 2013, 23:42
Indonesia isn't a signatory, so they can tell the UN to go jump. :8
UNHCR - States Parties to the 1951 Convention and its 1967 Protocol (http://www.unhcr.org/3b73b0d63.html)
Meanwhile the scum who organise the boats and take the money from desperate refugees get away scot free.Agree.

500N
3rd Oct 2013, 23:47
Thanks Worrals, I didn't realise that.

Cacophonix
4th Oct 2013, 00:03
Join an English party and be the prick you are...! :D

Caco

Tankertrashnav
4th Oct 2013, 00:09
Look on the bright side. At least they won't end up on the dole in the UK.


I dont think there's really a bright side of 150 people, many of them women and children, drowning.

Before we get too cynical dont forget we had the very good fortune to be born into relative wealthy, free countries. The only reason anyone wants to flee the UK is to get away from the bloody weather - think how desperate you'd have to be to risk yourself in a death trap without lifebelts just to get to Sicily.

I did sod all to find myself in the fortunate position I'm in - I just happened to pick the right parents. Spare a thought for those who fate didn't favour.

500N
4th Oct 2013, 00:14
Tanker

Their isn't a bright side, for these or the one's in Aus, never will be.

It's just the empathy that a lot of Australians had for the Asylum seekers
coming in by boat has gone, to the extent of they don't care anymore.
I see similar comments in papers overseas.

Tankertrashnav
4th Oct 2013, 00:20
That's understandable. Similarly the welcome being given to Syrian refugees as they flood over the borders into Turkey, Jordan and Lebanon gets distinctly cooler as the numbers continue to increase. I believe the term is "compassion fatigue".

But as you say - no good side to any of it.

500N
4th Oct 2013, 00:32
One of the big issues with ours is, they fly into Indonesia on a Commercial airline flight, get a Visa into Indonesia, then destroy their documents, pay a people smuggler $10,000 to get on a boat.

They get off the boats here with the latest Mobile phone, laptops,
looking well fed and muscled and clearly stating they don't want
to go anywhere else but Australia and get shitty when they are
shipped off to some remote Island detention centre.

Iran, Sri Lanka, refugees, really ????

So yes, "compassion fatigue" is a good word for it.

I can guarantee that GENUINE refugees would be welcomed
in Australia without question, even by me.

Metro man
4th Oct 2013, 02:34
Reminds me of Somali pirates taking on two US Navy warships because they had three boats and thought they could win because they outnumbered the Americans.

What do the Indonesians think Sri Lankans and Afghans are coming to their country for ? Tourism and business ? They happily turned a blind eye because these people were just passing through on their way to Australia. Now that Australia is quite rightly turning the boats around they start complaining.

International convention, if you are refused entry into a country you are sent back to the country you departed from. Eg a Nigerian arriving in Sydney from Auckland who is not allowed in, gets sent back to New Zealand. It is then the Kiwis problem to deal with. If they don't want him they arrange for his removal back to his country of origin.

If the Indonesians don't want to have to deal with illegals they shouldn't let them in in the first place.

reynoldsno1
4th Oct 2013, 03:02
Apparently most of these "refugees" were from Eritrea. Now, it's a while since I looked at an atlas, but the route from Eritrea to Lampedusa seems to involve a fair number of border crossings before even thinking about a boat trip. :ugh: I'm rather sad to have to admit most of my symapthies lie with the people of Lampedusa, who appear to be a stoic lot, and put up with all this crap with a remarkable amount of fortitude and good grace.

hoofie
4th Oct 2013, 03:09
500N:
I can guarantee that GENUINE refugees would be welcomed
in Australia without question, even by me.

As I feel they would be by everyone. There are thousands of people in refugee camps on the Thai/Burmese border who will wait years for a sniff of a refugee place in Australia but they will never see it thanks to the country-shoppers who can pay for the service.

500N
4th Oct 2013, 03:37
And that is the shame of it.

Australia is so full of well integrated cultures from taking in people
or letting people emigrate to Aus.

But now, we have these "queue jumpers" who want to get on the band wagon
and because the Aus Gov't "used" to take a high number, which was in addition
to the standard allocation of refugee immigrants, the number has never increased
when in a genuine situation it most likely would.

I think in some ways the lefties have done genuine refugees a disservice
focusing so much on the AS to the detriment of others.

Solid Rust Twotter
4th Oct 2013, 06:57
...the UN berates Australia...


That's right up there with being savaged by a gerbil as a reason to give a shit.

500N
4th Oct 2013, 07:08
I agree, but until recently we had a lefty Gov't and they do give a shyte
about getting a good report and worrying how the world sees them.

Personally, I'd tell them to FO PDQ and if they want them,
we'll deliver them to their address.

Flap 5
4th Oct 2013, 07:20
Back to the original thread:

They seem to be quite high on the list of Darwin Award candidates, no?



One, or maybe two, people decided to light a fire. That doesn't make all of the passengers candidates for the Darwin Award. One or two may have been a bit stupid to light a fire on a wooden boat. The rest were just passengers.

We hear a lot about how we in Britain treat people. It should be mentioned that these people would be treated very badly in Libya, from where they were crossing to Italy.

pull-up-terrain
4th Oct 2013, 07:26
That doesn't make all of the passengers candidates for the Darwin Award..

Well, they were stupid enough to hop on a boat without life jackets and appropriate safety equipment...

beaufort1
4th Oct 2013, 08:39
There was a piece on this latest incident on the Today programme. The authorities are expecting the final tally to be in the region of 300. There were 500 people packed on a 65' boat. Since 2008, 20,000 refugees have drowned/perished trying to get into the EU. A refugee was interviewed and apparently the Libyan authorities are putting refugees from Eritrea and Somalia into boats and sending them off.

dead_pan
4th Oct 2013, 09:33
They pay thousands of $$$$ to get on these boats yet no one thinks
of putting food, water or life jackets on them for the kids that can't swim.

You're kidding aren't you? Do you really think the traffikers have their 'clients' welfare in mind, let alone take any responsibility for it?

dead_pan
4th Oct 2013, 09:40
Before we get too cynical dont forget we had the very good fortune to be born into relative wealthy, free countries. The only reason anyone wants to flee the UK is to get away from the bloody weather - think how desperate you'd have to be to risk yourself in a death trap without lifebelts just to get to Sicily.

I did sod all to find myself in the fortunate position I'm in - I just happened to pick the right parents. Spare a thought for those who fate didn't favour.

Absolutely spot-on.

My question to those who oppose immigration is what would you do were you in their position? Would you stick around and try and fix your country, and hope you or your family didn't starve/die of disease/get killed in some conflict/etc, or would you take the only chance going and pay the traffickers? I sure as hell know what I'd do.

Fareastdriver
4th Oct 2013, 10:04
hope you or your family didn't starve/die of disease/get killed in some conflict/etc,

...and whose fault is that?

Homo Sapiens apparently started in Africa. It has had thousands of years start over the, now, Western world. Why hasn't it developed at least as far as anywhere else.

MagnusP
4th Oct 2013, 10:09
hope you or your family didn't starve/die of disease/get killed in some conflict/etc, or would you take the only chance going and pay the traffickers?

Given that the majority of wannabe illegal immigrants appear to have been young men, it seems unlikely that their first concern was to remove their families to a place of safety. Just saying.

vee-tail-1
4th Oct 2013, 10:22
Ultimately these are the effects of overpopulation, hugely increased by misguided Western food and medical aid.

Africa is well above it's human carrying capacity, there simply is not enough fertile land to sustainably grow enough food to feed all the people there.

We in Western developed countries will be OK for a while, but allowing increasing numbers of immigrants will speed the time when we also will be in trouble. Particularly when many of those immigrants are infected with AIDs, TB, STDs, and the Muslim religion.

Flap 5
4th Oct 2013, 10:36
Ultimately these are the effects of overpopulation, hugely increased by misguided Western food and medical aid.

Africa is well above it's human carrying capacity, there simply is not enough fertile land to sustainably grow enough food to feed all the people there.

We in Western developed countries will be OK for a while, but allowing increasing numbers of immigrants will speed the time when we also will be in trouble.

Spot on. I have said this on several occasions but it gets conveniently ignored.

1920's world population = 2 billion
1960's world population = 4 billion
Present world population > 7 billion

Really, what else can we expect? :hmm:

Flap 5
4th Oct 2013, 10:38
Well, they were stupid enough to hop on a boat without life jackets and appropriate safety equipment...

Well I am sure they were offered all of that when they paid a small fortune to the criminals that provided the boat. :=

Metro man
4th Oct 2013, 10:51
When the Titanic sank, there weren't enough life boats on board. When the life boats filled up they rowed clear of the survivors remaining in the water. Sounds inhuman but they couldn't pick up everyone and would have been swamped if they had tried, resulting in even more deaths.

Western countries today are in the position of survivors in the boats, they simply cannot take in even a small percentage of the genuine refugees let alone those simply after a better life.

bosnich71
4th Oct 2013, 11:24
Dead Pan .... the only problem being that unlimited immigration into any Western country perceived to be wealthy etc. will never be a workable solution to the problems of the Third World.
I have spent most of my adult life, some five decades, contributing to charities which purported to be helping the more unfortunate peoples of the world. Nothing seems to have changed in that 50 years, well actually I think that they have,things have got worse. As a result I no longer give to charities promoting overseas aid etc. As I said to one collector who has regularly, in the past, rung me up asking me to donate, sell raffle tickets and suchlike, " I think that I have now provided enough money to 'dig a number of wells, provide some taps, educate a number of children but I have now reached saturation point".
The salaries paid to many of the C.E.O's of various charitable organisations verge on the obscene. As an example, a charity set up by the 'hypocrite in chief', Mr. Bono raised some millions but only paid out a measly 180,000 plus to those in need.
I believe that there are many others like me and I also believe that the U.N.and their multitude of agencies have realised this and are now in the process of lifting monies directly from our pockets , via stealth taxation, i.e. carbon to fund their... the U.N.'s lifestyles.

MagnusP
4th Oct 2013, 11:31
Africa is well above it's human carrying capacity, there simply is not enough fertile land to sustainably grow enough food to feed all the people there.

Funny that. I thought that, for example, Zimbabwe used to be a major exporter of agricultural products. I wonder what changed?

Metro man
4th Oct 2013, 11:48
Strange, the place has every mineral you can find in a geology text book, coal, oil, gas, vast areas of arable land, spectacular tourist attractions and they still make a mess of it.

Singapore has no natural resources, insufficient land to feed its people therefore having to import most of it's food, insufficient water which has to be piped in from Malaysia and at independence in 1965 was a poor third world country with enough money in the bank to cover one weeks worth of imports.

Today Singapore is a modern developed country on a similar level to Western Europe, Japan, North America and Australia. During the global financial crisis Singapore loaned money to the International Monetary Fund.

Singapore - Did so much with so little.
Africa - Has so much and achieved nothing with it, indeed in most cases gone backwards.

bosnich71
4th Oct 2013, 12:04
Metro man...... Singapore now has a larger land mass than when I was there in '65. Amazing what can be done by an ex colony.
...... and NO CHEWING GUM !

dead_pan
4th Oct 2013, 12:12
Dead Pan .... the only problem being that unlimited immigration into any Western country perceived to be wealthy etc. will never be a workable solution to the problems of the Third World.

I didn't say it was. I was just pointing out what I and probably most/all other contributors would do were they in these peoples' shoes. We can't dump on them for simply trying to get out and make a go of it in the west.

Singapore - Did so much with so little.
Africa - Has so much and achieved nothing with it, indeed in most cases gone backwards.

Indeed, but then there's a fair few immigrants wanting out from the likes of China etc. Even when a country is apparently functioning well people still look over the fence and see greener grass.

Africa does appear to have a unique set of cultural problems. I think there's a case for immigration - in-bound from westerners, that is. The Chinese have already cottoned on to this and are sending its citizens there in their droves.

bosnich71
4th Oct 2013, 12:15
Basil ....... I was also born in the early part of WW2.
I grew up hearing of problems of education, housing, and health which led to overcrowding and various problems with schools, hospitals, unemployment etc.
These problems, some 50 years later are all still with us ... well with those in U.K. anyway ...however none of these problems were enough to prevent the authorities from carrying out massive immigrations beginning in the 50's and continuing through to the present, and, showing absolutely no signs of abating. I don't believe that those who ran / run the country are unaware of the problems so there would have to be some degree of design about it all.

dead_pan
4th Oct 2013, 12:16
Those people died in the defence of our kingdom against foreign invasion.
Are we now to dishonour them by permitting creeping invasion?

Sheesh, here we go again. Are you saying all immigrants are Nazis in disguise?

Metro man
4th Oct 2013, 12:18
As a result of it's water problems, Singapore has become a world leader in water recycling and desalination technology. Currently earning billions from building plants in the middle east.

Also knows a bit about land reclamation, the little red dot is growing every day.

dead_pan
4th Oct 2013, 12:21
I don't believe that those who ran / run the country are unaware of the problems so there would have to be some degree of design about it all.

If you want to know what the real problem facing our country, have a look around you the next time you're in your local GP or hospital.

bosnich71
4th Oct 2013, 12:27
Dead pan ... there was no intention on my part to infer that you agreed with unlimited immigration and I apologise if what I wrote was taken that way.
You mention people in China "looking over the fence", there has been quite a steep rise in immigration to Australia from India in recent years despite us Aussies being forever informed that India has the 3rd. highest growth rate,out performing Australia etc. etc. Lots of space rockets, much larger armed forces one could go on and on. Could it be that the wealth being generated by this "growth" is not being shared around with the majority of Indians, and Africans for that matter. A bit like the British 'masses' who lived in poverty at the height of the British Empire. It wasn't really until after the First World War that the majority of British saw an improvement in their living standards, perhaps that is what should be happening in Africa but accelerated somewhat.

500N
4th Oct 2013, 12:27
"I'll tell you one thing, pal: When I was a lad you wouldn't have said that to my face but you're a big brave internet defender of the weak."


Don't say on a forum what you aren't prepared to say out loud.


"Zimbabwe used to be a major exporter of agricultural products.
I wonder what changed?"

A black man took over and decided to run a fiefdom instead of a country.

dead_pan
4th Oct 2013, 12:38
there has been quite a steep rise in immigration to Australia from India in recent years

I suspect many countries such as India and China encourage, or certainly don't dissuade, their citizens from leaving. It has the double advantage of reducing population pressures at home, and potentially providing them with a source of foreign exchange remittances. In time who knows it could even provide them with new territories, or at least very sympathetic allies/trading partners... Makes sense if you have global ambitions and lots of people to spare.

I do know that countries such as the Philippines have programmes specifically aimed at encouraging their citizens to seek employment overseas (as maids etc) for the latter reason (foreign remittances, that is).

500N
4th Oct 2013, 12:38
Basil

No, not aimed at you, more a general comment
backing up what you said about being an internet
defender.

I find it is a good rule to go by.

bosnich71
4th Oct 2013, 12:38
Metro man ... 'the little red dot'.
I was in Singapore a few years back, after a gap of 40 years or more, and was driving SWMBO crackers by rabbiting on about how the place had changed since my "youth". Eventually we were on our way to Changi by taxi for our flight back to Oz. I remarked to the taxi driver about how I couldn't remember the land off to the sea ward side of the freeway. He asked when was I last in town. In 1965 I replied. Ah, he said in 1965 there was no land over there so, wanting more land, we reclaimed some. I don't recall the exact amount of land reclaimed but he did say that the Indonesians weren't impressed as Singapore's territorial waters had moved a bit closer to Indonesia.

dead_pan
4th Oct 2013, 12:42
What a ridiculous misinterpretation of my posting.

Well it wasn't quite as ridiculous as your post. Honestly, you can tack pretty much anything you want on to that hackneyed old phrase "Our grandparents didn't fight and die so that..." to suit your narrow world view.

Capetonian
4th Oct 2013, 12:47
I used to handle the travel account of a major charity doing work in Africa. First class travel, 5 star hotels, itineraries planned to suit their personal needs rather than to save money. A bunch of self-righteous sanctimonious hand-wringing pricks. Downright bloody unpleasant too some of them.

Since then, I've had no time for mainstream charities.

rgbrock1
4th Oct 2013, 13:35
1920's world population = 2 billion
1960's world population = 4 billion
Present world population > 7 billion

Really, what else can we expect?

A plague to cull the herd?

dead_pan
4th Oct 2013, 13:50
Well, if wishing the best for my children and my country

Don't disagree, I just don't think immigration is anywhere near the biggest problem facing our country atm. Anyway there's plenty of immigrants who have arrived and fit right in, earning a living, paying their taxes, and not claiming benefits, despite what the Daily Fail would have you believe.

Now, I wonder which part of the population accounts for the biggest (and rising) share of our welfare and health budgets?

cockney steve
4th Oct 2013, 14:07
A bunch of self-righteous sanctimonious hand-wringing pricks. Downright bloody unpleasant too some of them.

You're among friends, stop holding back, tell us what you really think:}
I concur with your synopsys and have no truck with any organised religious orders or "charities" for those reasons.

We've poured resources into the African continent for at least 3 generations.... As the current generation of adults is not forwarding and developing the skills and knowledge to the youngsters, one must conclude they're happier sitting on "Whitey's" coat-tails for a free ride.

'Twas thus in the '60's Bahamas....Pindling wanted to kick out the whites and give their jobs to the indiginous blacks....who, in turn, had little aspiration or education and were happier being stoned, sunbathing, or gathering a few Cowrie -shells to flog to the tourists.

Lonewolf_50
4th Oct 2013, 14:09
You're kidding aren't you? Do you really think the traffikers have their 'clients' welfare in mind, let alone take any responsibility for it?
The traffickers seem to have the same moral compass as the coyotes along our southwestern border.

Maybe they belong to a guild or a professional group like the AMA, something like ... the ICA .. International Coyote Association ... :mad:

Nick Riviera
4th Oct 2013, 14:15
Anyway there's plenty of immigrants who have arrived and fit right in, earning a living, paying their taxes, and not claiming benefits, despite what the Daily Fail would have you believe.


Want to post a link to a Mail editorial that states that belief?

Rwy in Sight
4th Oct 2013, 14:27
A friend of mine pointed out that the rich Middle East is on the way between the source of immigrant stream and the destination Western Europe. Yet they don't want to stay in Saudi Arabia (a muslim country) but they prefer to be in the West where the social state is much more generous and the laws more relaxed.

So, we, in the Western Europe we have a perception (maybe justified) that vast majority of immigrants come for economic reasons (rather because their life is in danger because of their opinions). And they do so without contributing on the system at all.

Rwy in Sight

500N
4th Oct 2013, 14:48
"So, we, in the Western Europe we have a perception (maybe justified) that vast majority of immigrants come for economic reasons"

We have the same problem, they only want to come to Aus because they
get so much welfare immediately and create chaos when told they are being sent somewhere else.

The DM today.

"One woman, who said she originally came from ‘near Damascus’, said: ‘The procedures for us to claim asylum are far simpler and quicker in Britain. ‘Once there we will be well treated, and can bring our families too. We can start new lives in Britain.’

Syrian asylum seekers occupy a roof and footbridge in Calais demanding: 'Take us to the UK' | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2443685/Syrian-asylum-seekers-occupy-roof-footbridge-Calais-demanding-Take-UK.html)

airship
4th Oct 2013, 15:38
Contrary to most posters here, I have another view-point of these events.

Whilst most posters here have simply "honed-in" to the usual anti "economic-migrant / illegal immigrant", extreme right-wing UK Conservative or standard UKIP aspects, I'd like to express my most sincere and profound respect for the Italian authorities when dealing with this (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-24392732) crisis: The number of those arriving by sea to Italy this year until 30 September stood at 30,100, according to the UN.

The main nationalities of those arriving were Syrian (7,500), Eritrean (7,500) and Somali (3,000).

For many years, Italy has repeatedly asked for help from their fellow EU countries in order to deal with this influx of refugees. Most EU countries such as the UK or France etc. usually dismiss this (the Brits having persuaded France to close the refugee centres in France such as Sangatte, the French have at times reintroduced border-controls with Italy in defiance of Schengen.

I'm reminded of all the "Vietnamese boat-people" of 20-30 years ago. They were often murdered by states, out at sea apparently. All traces of the boats and the people disappearing. Malaysia, Thailand, Indonesia, Australia were all complicit back then. Ships of any nation finally refusing to come to their rescue and in defiance of all current practices...?! :sad:

Australia still adheres to severe, if not illegal practices concerning refugees. Both the UK and France are fully-aware that these boats filled with potential refugees will never normally reach their own coasts, Italy being the best destination...

So, "grazie Italia". :ok: In spite of your own very important economic concerns in 2013, that you still devote important resources to the plight of all these refugees... :ok: :ok: :ok:

Whilst most others have turned their backs on them (and you)... :sad:

Lonewolf_50
4th Oct 2013, 15:49
I'd like to express my most sincere and profound respect for the Italian authorities when dealing with this (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-24392732) crisis:
For many years, Italy has repeatedly asked for help from their fellow EU countries in order to deal with this influx of refugees.
When the fools in the EU dropped the border checks/passport checks inside the EU, this they brought this problem upon the EU's southern nations in spades. Even I could see that coming a mile away. Granted, I was on a NATO staff at the time, and got some earfuls from Greek, Spanish, French, and Italian officers on how they foresaw this developing. Mostly, it has come down as predicted by those gents almost two decades ago. )
I'm reminded of all the "Vietnamese boat-people" of 20-30 years ago. They were often murdered by states, out at sea apparently.
Evidence?
All traces of the boats and the people disappearing.
So, you are making this up, eh?
Malaysia, Thailand, Indonesia, Australia were all complicit back then.
I don't believe you. Back it up. Your fantasies and conspiracy theories aren't good enough.
Australia still adheres to severe, if not illegal practices concerning refugees.
Coming from you "illegal" means "airship is still full of hot air."
Hmm, airships usually are. :p As you were.

The Italians are having to deal with a collective EU stupidity. I am not surprised that they are not being given the help they would like.

MG23
4th Oct 2013, 15:51
The Italians are having to deal with a collective EU stupidity. I am not surprised that they are not being given the help they would like.

On the plus side, most of these people will just use Italy as a stopover before they move to the UK, so they don't have to worry too much.

dazdaz1
4th Oct 2013, 15:59
MIG23

Well said Sir :ok:

airship
4th Oct 2013, 16:07
Coming from you "illegal" means "airship is still full of hot air. Hmm, airships usually are. :p As you were.

Please do address the post content, and not simply abuse the poster as you've just done?! I'm not under your command, so I shall not comply with "As you were"... :rolleyes:

PS. FWIW, "hot-air balloons" are filled with "hot-air". Airships are today almost exclusively filled with helium. Back in the days of the Nazis and the Hindenberg, the Germans might have used helium instead of hydrogen. Except the monopoly of USA manufacturer/s of helium of the day, would not supply them with the necessary helium...

airship
4th Oct 2013, 16:13
MG23 wrote: On the plus side, most of these people will just use Italy as a stopover before they move to the UK, so they don't have to worry too much. Their boats certainly would not allow these refugees to cross the Atlantic ocean and arrive in US or Canadian waters...

So what were you endeavouring to say, exactly...?! :confused:

Lonewolf_50
4th Oct 2013, 16:17
airship, your habit of pulling stuff, unsubstantiated, out of your backside and posting it here makes you a non-credible source of accusation in re the fate of the boat people. Your baseless assertions need to be withdrawn, or supported with better evidence than the hot air you emit.

To the content of your post I respond: Bullshit.

As to Boat People:

I currently to work with six men (about my age) who are actual boat people who fled the commies in Viet Nam at the end of that war. Five of the six were picked up by American Navy ships, one was picked up by a Dutch merchant ship, ended up in the Philippines, then on to California where there was family.

My guess is that you know about jack shit about Boat People, but you don't mind making stuff up.

Carry on.

rgbrock1
4th Oct 2013, 16:21
airship wrote:

Contrary to most posters here, I have another view-point of these events.

I'm sure you do airship, I'm sure you do.

MG23
4th Oct 2013, 16:36
So what were you endeavouring to say, exactly...?! :confused:

I thought it was fairly obvious. These people are only going to Italy because it's the shortest route to the EU. Once the Italians let them into the EU, most will be heading off to other countries with better prospects. Which, for many of them, will be the UK, whether to live on benefits or work in the unskilled jobs Britons used to do.

So, while it's an Italian problem in the short term, it's an EU problem in the long term. And particularly a problem for the unskilled and low-skilled young Britons who can't get a job worth doing any more.

rgbrock1
4th Oct 2013, 16:40
LW50 wrote:

jack shit about Boat PeopleJack Shit was one of the boat people? I've never met him. :}:}:}

Anyway, back to the volley. Your turn airship.

MG wrote:

I thought it was fairly obvious.

To most, what you wrote was obvious yes. But there are some who walk amongst us who find the sun rising in the morning something quite mysterious and inexplicable.

As they do when trying to locate their a** with both hands.

Rwy in Sight
4th Oct 2013, 16:43
airship

in defiance of Schengen

I am pretty sure the treaty allows countries to re-instate passport controls when they want. I have seen French police to check passports outside an EU aircraft.

If immigrants are chased because of their believes and not in search of economic well being and the social gravy of the West, I think the Australian solution is almost perfect - detention centers and a life ban from qualifying for any State allowance. Feed them pork meat offer them generous amount of beer and free porn movies five times a day. In other words make their stay in the west as unpleasant as possible yet meet human standards.

And Airship do you know that most immigrants no matter where they are from once they reach an EU country they destroy their documents and just claim they are from countries with civil wars to claim refugee status.

Honestly it does not make happy to pay a large amount of tax and see economic immigrants to have a better service than me in my country.


Rwy in Sight

airship
4th Oct 2013, 17:11
And Airship do you know that most immigrants no matter where they are from once they reach an EU country they destroy their documents and just claim they are from countries with civil wars to claim refugee status.

I'm well aware that some choose to do so. I'm not aware that "most" do so, unless they're for example Syrian refugees transiting via Egypt or Libya (to where they might simply be repatriated to) if failing to rapidly achieve the status of refugee as accorded by the UN.

In France, we complain about the Romanian (gypsies), who have the legal right to try to settle here. In Italy, well before the Syrian crisis, they knew that most economic migrants / refugees preferred to rejoin their compatriots in the UK or elsewhere. That does not excuse the UK, France or elsewhere from their contributions whilst Italy faces the brunt.

As usual, some irresponsible governments operate on the basis that they're somehow wholly-insulated from World events. I just hope that both they (and you) can sleep peacefully at night...?! :rolleyes:

dead_pan
4th Oct 2013, 17:22
Want to post a link to a Mail editorial that states that belief?

I'm not sure if you misread my post - are you asking me to find a Fail editorial which asserts my claim re immigrants paying taxes etc? I'm not sure such a thing exists.

If, on the other hand, you're looking for some of their usual anti-immigrant guff, here are a few pearlers for your delectation:

Tory minister Eric Pickles has said new ways to teach English to immigrants are needed... So they don't miss the 'enormous joy' of TOWIE | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2263145/Tory-minister-Eric-Pickles-said-new-ways-teach-English-immigrants-needed--So-dont-miss-enormous-joy-TOWIE.html)

Hundreds of illegal immigrants armed with knives and crowbars swarm round Calais trucks heading for Britain | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1180180/Hundreds-illegal-immigrants-armed-knives-crowbars-swarm-round-Calais-trucks-heading-Britain.html)

A-maize-ing cargo! 14 illegal immigrants caught sneaking into UK in tanker carrying 25 tonnes of starch powder | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1223868/A-maize-ing-cargo-14-illegal-immigrants-caught-sneaking-UK-tanker-carrying-25-tonnes-starch-powder.html)

Krystal n chips
4th Oct 2013, 17:23
" Particularly when many of those immigrants are infected with AIDs, TB, STDs, and the Muslim religion."

Well now, isn't it amazing....those of us with an open mind learn something new everyday it seems.

There I was, under the innocent illusion that a medical condition was, well, a medical condition and a religious faith, any faith, was just that.

Now however, it seems that the two are inextricably linked.....is the W.H.O aware of this development I have to wonder, such is the gravity of this astounding news !.....and, seemingly, every immigrant is now a Muslim, plus, until the arrival of these immigrants, Western countries were all disease free !.

Not being a medic, I am though, confused.

Could you explain, in simple terms please, how, being a member if a faith is the same as having contracted any of the ailments you mention.

Of course, and I am sure this may have entered your head, albeit in a transient manner, there is also the possibility that many of these immigrants, of the Muslim faith, may have medical skills for example, which come in useful at times............ in particular in the field of psychiatric medicine for example given some of the indigenous population of the UK do, it appears, suffer from paranoia and delusions.

Being a Guardian reader, I felt this was a much more PC way of describing those who are racist bigots.....so I hope you won't feel offended therefore.

MG23
4th Oct 2013, 17:28
Being a Guardian reader, I felt this was a much more PC way of describing those who are racist bigots.....so I hope you won't feel offended therefore.

I'm always amused when I see people call Britons 'racists', because I can't think of any other country on the planet that would have accepted the kind of mass immigration Britain has seen over the last few decades without rioting in the streets.

rgbrock1
4th Oct 2013, 17:42
MG23 wrote:

I'm always amused when I see people call Britons 'racists', because I can't think of any other country on the planet that would have accepted the kind of mass immigration Britain has seen over the last few decades without rioting in the streets.

Ahhh, I haven't seen any rioting in the streets anywhere here in the U.S. considering the unbridled immigration which continues to this day.

dead_pan
4th Oct 2013, 17:45
OTTOMH, and I could be wrong, I'd think the ageing population MANY of whom, but not all, have contributed through taxes and NI for what they will receive.

Again I'm agreeing with you - my point is that our ageing population, more than anything else, is putting incredible strain on the state's finances. Your generation paid its way back then, but we now need more people to pay their way now to pay for all of this infrastructure - one of the ways our government (of all shades) have attempted to address this is to encourage immigration to help bolster the working population, also to plug gaps in our workforce in key areas such as healthcare (if you're ever in hospital any time soon, which I sincerely hope you aren't, check out the range of nationalities working there).

YES, we are very lucky to have been born where we were but that doesn't mean that we should now have feelings of guilt and responsibility which lead us to wreck our country. It's a rough world. Think about that.


Yes, but we shouldn't just shut up shop and hope the problem goes away. We need an effective and fair immigration policy coupled with programmes aimed at persuading people to stay in their homes countries (and I'm not necessarily talking about aid - much could be done in terms of levelling the trade playing field, providing technical assistance etc etc)

MG23
4th Oct 2013, 17:46
Ahhh, I haven't seen any rioting in the streets anywhere here in the U.S. considering the unbridled immigration which continues to this day.

Where does America have 'unbridled immigration'?

Legal immigration is extremely hard for most people, and the majority of illegal immigrants come from Central America and live a small fraction of states.

Capetonian
4th Oct 2013, 18:19
The Schengen agreement has to be one of the most ill-conceived, foolish, and pernicious pieces of legislation ever adopted, even by the lower-than-shark-shit levels of that body of morons in Brussels. Even countries like Switzerland which used to be safe are now suffering from its effects.

rgbrock1
4th Oct 2013, 18:23
MG:

There is a huge problem with illegal immigration in this country. And those who come here illegally, mostly from south of The Grand River but from other areas as well, situate themselves in many areas of the country, not just a few.

The illegals in this country are pervasive. And can be seen on just about any street corner, looking for work.

Although the exact numbers are difficult to come by, for obvious reasons, it is estimated that the illegal immigrant population in the U.S. is approximately 12 million.

That, sir, is a disgrace. And a very big problem.

ATNotts
4th Oct 2013, 18:31
The Schengen agreement has to be one of the most ill-conceived, foolish, and pernicious pieces of legislation ever adopted, even by the lower-than-shark-shit levels of that body of morons in Brussels. Even countries like Switzerland which used to be safe are now suffering from its effects.

Schengen has absolutely nothing to do with the attempted arrival in the EU of Africans on Italy's shores. They would have come whatever, and in all probability they would have seeped their way across the European land borders, though granted, with more ease with Schengen, than without.

Practically, commerce between European states would be immeasurably more difficult with constant holdups for border checks on Autobahns, Autoroutes and Autostrada. That's before you even start considering how freight would move with the speed that it does through EU states.

The hold up, without a doubt in the UK border at Calais / Coquelles where time is wasted with pointless passport checks on European citizens simply trying to cross an internal border.

The weakness of Schengen stems from the inability of the usual suspects (principally Greece) to properly secure their external borders with non-EU states.

This isn't the popular view in the UK, but when you travel, especially by road, through Europe Schengen's benefits are blindingly obvious.

Fareastdriver
4th Oct 2013, 19:30
Britain's immigration problems started in the 60s. There was full employment in the UK and getting people to do the menial jobs was difficult if not impossible. Anybody in the Commonwealth at that time had a right of work and take up residence in the UK and they came by the shipload. London Transport was one organisation that had this problem; they still had clippies on buses then, and immigration from the West Indies was such that they had recruiting offices in the Caribbean.
A standard saying at the time was that OHMS on an envelope meant Only Hindus Moslems and Sikhs.
The Wilson government didn't try to control it. They had a wafer thin majority in Parliament and 'A black face was a Labour vote'. This was echoed by the Blair government of the 2000s.
The NHS is the second largest civilian employer in the World yet it still, because it is a government run organisation, incapable of looking after 0.71% of the planet's population. It is staffed by an incredible proportion of immigrants. As the Malawian Minister of Health said a couple of years ago. "There are more Malawian doctors in Manchester than there are in Malawi.

No other countries other than the fluffy western countries tolerate this. Try immigrating into an Asian country and claiming benefits, if any. I worked in China for over a decade and I would love to retire there despite all the cultural difficulties that would arise. No financial assistance, no medical assistance, no burden on the State whatsoever.

No chance.

Lonewolf_50
4th Oct 2013, 19:37
RG, I was squadron mates with both Jacques Shitt and Roger Ball. :}

rgbrock1
4th Oct 2013, 19:43
LW:

Ah, so that's where "call the Ball" originates from!! :}:}

LEGAL TENDER
4th Oct 2013, 20:47
https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/563136_521247417959888_1163803611_n.jpg

"The Italian hypocrisy calls for mourning if the migrants drown, and complain if they land safely"

Lonewolf_50
4th Oct 2013, 20:49
Those people have no right to be in Italy.
They were attempting to land there illegally.

Looks like the Italians have their share of bleeding heart stronzi.

How does one phrase that in Italian, I wonder?

I stronzi di cuori sanguinante





(??? cuori sanguinanti ?? perhaps, in the plural?)

baggersup
5th Oct 2013, 00:30
Meanwhile the scum who organise the boats and take the money from desperate refugees get away scot free. I don't suppose the villages where the poor sods come from ever hear of their fate.

Regarding the above comment on Oz's arrivals, before you bring out your violin take a look at the photos of some of these arrivals escorted into Oz with fanfare.

Beefy, healthy looking lads, well dressed in casual clothes, muscles to rival Arnold in his hey day. They are toting laptop computers, the latest iphones alot of them.

The people smuggler scum aren't working for free. They've been paid heftily to get these guys into Oz. These poor downtrodden probably arrived business class into Indonesia before they flushed their passports down the toilet.

Poor villagers looking for news. My patoot.

bosnich71
5th Oct 2013, 00:48
Crikey this thread took off overnight, Oz time, didn't it ?
I think I'll go and volunteer to water SWMBO's flowers.

P.s.
Whoever said that he/she is a Guardian reader, well that says it all unfortunately as the 40,000 or so who still read that paper are obviously more intelligent than the rest of us. :=

Teldorserious
5th Oct 2013, 00:56
Less people making babies > Less People > Less Stupid People > Less Suffering

bosnich71
5th Oct 2013, 04:36
Teldorserious ..... do you mean there should be less Bonking ?

Rwy in Sight
5th Oct 2013, 07:30
ATNotts,

The usual suspects are that because their countries are in the "wrong" place. Long borders make policing difficult, and the Dublin agreements don't make exactly the situation easier.

I am wondering how the receiving north European countries would react if the usual suspects brought back the mines on the border and follow the example of Italy with the Albanian immigrants back in 90's.

Rwy in Sight

bosnich71
5th Oct 2013, 09:24
I know it's the Daily Mail, or Fail, as Guardian readers would call it, but this morning there is a report of a number of Syrian "refugees" on a hunger strike in Calais who are demanding !!!!!!! entry into U.K.
They are complaining that the French do not treat them properly, i.e. no benefits etc. the police hassle them all the time. A spokesperson for Medicins du Monde complained that the "refugees" are not being helped by the French government which does not give them food or shelter. The police persecute them. They don't want to stay in France and they are increasingly desperate to get to U.K.
Father of six, Zakarya Sheikh Kelo has walked, driven and flown across Europe to escape Syria and he will not stop until he reaches U.K. He escaped Syria and with his wife and six children crossed the border into Turkey. He has left his family there and paid a smuggling gang his life savings to get him to London. Instead they took him to Paris and from there he went to Calais. He stated that both Turkey and France were safe but demanded !!!!!! to be allowed into Britain where he could apply for his family to join him. He chose Britain because," the procedures are quicker to get asylum and once I am there it is easier to bring my whole family too".
The Mayor of Calais has demanded !!!!!!! action at Westminster. " The British must make a decision", she said ,"it is unacceptable that it is in France and at Calais that one has to control immigration".
The number of "refugees" at Calais is presently about 40 but I understand that there are a quite a few in Syria and elsewhere ..... I await readers comments.

Andu
5th Oct 2013, 09:49
It sounds like these blokes have been taking lessons from their cousins who've been coming to Australia over the last six years. The 'demands' are almost word perfect to those that have been made to our government since 2008. Until a month ago, (with the change of government), these demands were usually met.

A bit like as it is in the UK, when they get in to Australia, they're onto the gravy train for life, which includes free dental and medical care. Some have - unbelievable as it may sound - asked for breast enlargement, botox and IVF treatment.

We really are seen as suckers on a grand scale.

Don't believe me? See here: Cookies must be enabled. | The Australian (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/policy/seeking-asylum-and-breast-job/story-fn9hm1gu-1226733279729)
ASYLUM-SEEKERS have asked doctors for breast enlargements, IVF treatment and botox.

bosnich71
5th Oct 2013, 13:56
The Charities Commission, in Britain, said today that millions of pounds donated to help Syrian refugees, " undoubtedly ends up in the hands of 'terrorist groups'.
The Disasters Emergency Committee also stated that it could not guarantee that some of the 20 million pounds that it has raised has not bankrolled jihadists.
A spokesman for the Disasters Committee, which includes the Red Cross and Oxfam, said, "it is never possible to entirely eliminate such risks".
So there you are folks, just donate your money, forget all about it and just feel all warm and funny 'cause you've done your good deed for the day.

SOPS
5th Oct 2013, 14:46
Wow, just turned on my Internet radio. The BBC is running a show on the Tampa crisis ( google it for those who don't know) and LBC radio is having a phone in on Asylum Seekers in France trying to get into the UK. 2GB in Sydney is talking about it as well as Radio Germany.

This issue is everywhere it seems.

Nick Riviera
5th Oct 2013, 20:43
I'm not sure if you misread my post - are you asking me to find a Fail editorial which asserts my claim re immigrants paying taxes etc?

Not misread at all, it's very simple - you stated that the Mail believes that all immigrants fail to pay taxes etc. I asked you to back this up with an editorial to that effect.

I'm not sure such a thing exists.

Excellent! You admit your error in the first paragraph of your reply. There is no evidence to support your statement.

If, on the other hand, you're looking for some of their usual anti-immigrant guff, here are a few pearlers for your delectation:

Tory minister Eric Pickles has said new ways to teach English to immigrants are needed... So they don't miss the 'enormous joy' of TOWIE | Mail Online

Hundreds of illegal immigrants armed with knives and crowbars swarm round Calais trucks heading for Britain | Mail Online

A-maize-ing cargo! 14 illegal immigrants caught sneaking into UK in tanker carrying 25 tonnes of starch powder | Mail Online


And now you try and back it up by producing news stories printed in the paper. Stories that were probably covered by other media outlets because they are NEWS. There is no anti-immigrant bias in any of them. Perhaps an anti-illegal immigrant stance but I fail to see how any person can have an issue with that.

So, to sum up, you make an assertion that you cannot back up with any evidence. What you have actually done is throw out a lazy stereotype, much like a true racist would do. Oh, the irony.

By happy coincidence there is someone else caught out in exactly the same way as you in today's edition. Hypocrisy and left-wingers? Surely not!

Mehdi Hasan: journalist who attacked Daily Mail on Question Time asked if he could write for paper | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2444637/Mehdi-Hasan-journalist-attacked-Daily-Mail-Question-Time-asked-write-paper.html)

It is a true joy to read.

dead_pan
6th Oct 2013, 00:07
Not misread at all....you stated that the Mail believes that all immigrants fail to pay taxes etc.

Ha! Failed at the first hurdle. Go back and read what I posted - to make it easy for you, have a scan for the word 'all'. If you're going to quote something back at someone, its always a good idea to get it down verbatim.

Excellent! You admit your error in the first paragraph of your reply. There is no evidence to support your statement.

Sigh. I was referring to the sentence which preceded this. But of course you knew this.

Stories that were probably covered by other media outlets because they are NEWS.


Really??? Maybe you'd care to post a link to other media outlets which supports this assertion? I'm sure the last story was particularly newsworthy and received national coverage, and those which did cover it did not intend to denigrate those involved or make light of their plight.

There is no anti-immigrant bias in any of them.

You're plain wrong on this. Anti-immigrant sentiment is rife in our press, and the Mail is one of the worst offenders.

Going back to my original 'assertion', when I've got a few mins to spare and can be ar$ed, I'll have a trawl of their editorials and see what I can find. Happy?

500N
6th Oct 2013, 00:48
Dead pan

"Anti-immigrant sentiment is rife in our press"

I think this needs splitting up into

anti-immigrant full stop
anti ILLEGAL immigrant
anti ILLEGAL immigrant who becomes
anti ILLEGAL Asylum seeker who becomes a legal immigrant

and that murky world of legal immigrants who only
go to the UK or Aus to do little except suck on the
Gov't teet. The above description applies to not
just immigrants.

People's views change depending on the category, mine do
and my views have changed solely on the basis of how they
get here but also because of the largesse the left wing wankers
seem to be able to provide for some at the expense of Australians
already here.

I think I see the same pattern being some across media in the UK.

airship
6th Oct 2013, 15:12
500N, so far as I'm aware, an "asylum-seeker" is neither an illegal immigrant nor economic migrant, until his / her case has been adequately investigated and established by "the courts" or equivalent etc. :}

Don't let your bile run completely free... :ok:

500N
6th Oct 2013, 15:18
airship
Just taking a leaf out of the lefties book :O
I've listened to their bile for too long. While we have the left on the run,
we need to make the most of the next 3 years and hopefully 6 years
and put policies in concrete.

"adequately investigated and established by "the courts" or equivalent etc."

Let's keep AS issues out of the court as that has been half the problem,
they won't accept the assessments and the lefties pay for endless challenges.

Fareastdriver
6th Oct 2013, 20:37
airship. Nobody minds hosting genuine asylum seekers. It's the asylum seekers who pick and choose which countries they want to claim asylum in.

500N
6th Oct 2013, 21:48
Airship

Have a read of this article by an ex Politician in Aust.
It might open your eyes as to why the majority of Australians
have gone to the right over this issue.

I'll mention Labor as they were the lefties we just kicked out
a point Amanda Vandstone makes well in that they fell for the
"let's be the good guys" trap. The result of which was over 1500
drownings of AS !!!

She has always spoken here mind and I am surprised she
wrote this but it's good to see someone calling a spade a spade
and showing the Asylum seeker issue in Australia for what it is.

Media-savvy asylum seekers play hardball
Having a sad story does not entitle entry to Australia.

"Media coverage plays a strong part in affecting our perceptions of what is happening around us and of what others are thinking. The recent tragic sinking of a boat off the coast of Java with asylum seekers on board, many of them children, is a case in point.

From the initial media coverage, one could be forgiven for thinking Australia was somehow to blame.


If anyone doubts that these people know full well what they are doing, all they need do is watch the TV clip of the man who claimed they had rung the Australian embassy but help had not arrived. To travel with mobiles on international roam, with the numbers in hand either of the Australian embassy or onshore colleagues ready and willing to contact it, is not the modus operandi of uninformed people who are duped by people smugglers. No, this is the work of people who are playing hardball with the Australian government and using the media to do so."

Media-savvy asylum seekers play hardball (http://www.theage.com.au/federal-politics/political-opinion/mediasavvy-asylum-seekers-play-hardball-20131006-2v26z.html)


From the article above, to highlight fasteastdrivers point above:-
"Remember, the lives of these people and that of their families are not at risk in Indonesia. Perhaps the Refugee Convention does need an overhaul. Rising incomes and ease of air travel have made forum shopping a possibility that was not as likely when the convention was drafted. Maybe the world needs to move to a system that shuts the door on forum shopping. The people who travel through or past two, three or four other countries in order to get to the country of their preference are certainly not those most in need."

Labor, by putting the sugar back on the table, started the boats up again. It has created endless problems for us and the Indonesians. Now it needs to be fixed again.

Capetonian
6th Oct 2013, 22:05
The real villains of the piece are the imbeciles and lefties who opened up Europe to 'asylum seekers' from third world countries and in so doing drafted legislation that was so full of holes that it allowed just about anyone to claim 'asylum' and live off benefits whilst their often spurious claims and identity were being checked and processed.

This was further compounded by the Schengen agreement that ensured that once these unfortunates reached European soil, after paying extortionate sums of money to crooks, via the poorly guarded borders of Italy and Greece, in particular, they then had unfettered movement.

Those of you who expressed support for the EU and its lunacy are reaping what you sowed.

bosnich71
7th Oct 2013, 00:47
Ref the E.U. .. Saturday afternoons on the Dutch / German border in the 60's were interesting. These were the days when the E.U, / Common Market was in it's planning phase but there were still border controls in place. The German customs people, assisted by their British counterparts, would stop each German registered vehicle for a customs check. This resulted in rather long queues in the 'no mans' land area between Holland and Germany especially on a Saturday as the Erics were in the habit of travelling to Roermond in Holland to buy up big on butter and coffee.However the British customs people would travel down the line of cars and pick out the B.F.G. registered vehicles and wave them up to the front of the queue and through the border. I thought that this was a very civilised way of life. After all we had won the War, well we thought we had ...... Pvt. Ryan and his friends hadn't yet appeared on the scene .... and anyway the border people knew that no 22 year old Brit.was going to be travelling to Holland to buy coffee !
And for all those who rabbit on about 'freedom of travel' etc. under the E.U. that we now have , we travelled all over Europe armed with a bit of paper, not a Passport. I only got one of those later when Her Majesty sent me off to one of our colonies .. funny that. :)

500N
7th Oct 2013, 00:53
bosnich

"we travelled all over Europe armed with a bit of paper, not a Passport. I only got one of those later when Her Majesty sent me off to one of our colonies .. funny that"

That's unusual, I hope you didn't forget the shackles and chains :O

bosnich71
7th Oct 2013, 01:38
I just knew that someone would pick up on that. No the colony wasn't Oz but somewhere else warm ..... and sticky.... where there was a spot of bother at the time.Not that I saw anything bothersome I hasten to add.

500N
7th Oct 2013, 04:49
From an article in Aus by a guy named Andrew Bolt.

The Asylum Seekers of today on boats (not necessarily all AS in camps
which I clearly put in another category).

"SBS interviewed relatives of passengers on the boat which sank off Indonesia, and was told one family paid $80,000 to get smuggled into Australia and escape "poverty".

Some poverty.


Lebanese government officials last week flew to Indonesia and announced most of the Lebanese survivors would be flying home with them.


So much for needing "asylum"."

Nick Riviera
7th Oct 2013, 12:49
Ha! Failed at the first hurdle. Go back and read what I posted - to make it easy for you, have a scan for the word 'all'. If you're going to quote something back at someone, its always a good idea to get it down verbatim.

Hmm, let's see what you wrote:

"Anyway there's plenty of immigrants who have arrived and fit right in, earning a living, paying their taxes, and not claiming benefits, despite what the Daily Fail would have you believe."

Doesn't make any sense unless you are talking about immigrants in general. Unless you really believe that the Mail doesn't believe that there are immigrants that pay taxes etc. That is, frankly, a ludicrous statement so one can only assume you mean immigrants in general.

Sigh. I was referring to the sentence which preceded this. But of course you knew this.

Sigh. You admit that what I asked you to do doesn't exist.

Really??? Maybe you'd care to post a link to other media outlets which supports this assertion? I'm sure the last story was particularly newsworthy and received national coverage, and those which did cover it did not intend to denigrate those involved or make light of their plight.

I don't need to post a link. i said they MIGHT be carried elsewhere but it doesn't matter if they are or not, they are still news stories and show no animosity to legal immigrants. As for your assertion that the last one isn't news, you must be smoking something. Illegal immigrants caught hiding in a truck and the involvement of both the Wiltshire Constabulary and the UK Border Agency and that's not news accoding to you? Astonishing.

You're plain wrong on this. Anti-immigrant sentiment is rife in our press, and the Mail is one of the worst offenders.

Again, your inability to differentiate between legal immigration and illegal immigration is troubling. I find no inherent animosity to the kind of legal immigration vital to the welfare and prosperity of the country in the mainstream press.

Going back to my original 'assertion', when I've got a few mins to spare and can be ar$ed, I'll have a trawl of their editorials and see what I can find. Happy?

Happy? Why would anything you do make me happy? Good luck with trying to find something to back up your assertion - you won't.

Let me sum up your post for you:

"I said something that I am now trying to prove was not a lazy stereotype. I can't prove it but I don't have the balls to admit I am wrong so I will keep posting replies trying to wriggle out of what I actually said."

Were you tutored by Campbell?

So let's get back to what you originally said again:

"Anyway there's plenty of immigrants who have arrived and fit right in, earning a living, paying their taxes, and not claiming benefits, despite what the Daily Fail would have you believe."

Back that up with some evidence.

Lonewolf_50
7th Oct 2013, 20:40
Bill Bryson, for one. ;)

dead_pan
7th Oct 2013, 23:11
I find no inherent animosity to the kind of legal immigration vital to the welfare and prosperity of the country in the mainstream press.

Well I beg to differ - the Mail and others rarely if ever make this distinction. A migrant is a migrant in their world.

By point of fact, all those Bulgarians and Romanians who apparently are set to land on these shores next year or whenever will be legal immigrants. Pray tell, how are they being portrayed in the press? Are we set to welcome them with open arms?

Will respond to the rest of your post in due course.

Krystal n chips
8th Oct 2013, 04:52
"Back that up with some evidence "

Since you asked Nick, although I doubt you will have either the will or acumen to understand, do have a read when taking tiffin old boy.

Immigrants' contribution to entrepreneurialism revealed | UK news | The Observer (http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2010/jun/13/immigration-entrepreneurs)


The truth about immigration: it's good for Britain - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/10131876/The-truth-about-immigration-its-good-for-Britain.html)

And finally, this lot also made a contribution, albeit in pre Border Agency days....and a bit of the incomparable Led Zep to start your day as well...what more could you ask ! ......:p

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROLs8M8BjE4

500N
8th Oct 2013, 05:16
Nick
You will always get a bunch of immigrants who do no work,
take on welfare etc but the majority of immigrants would
not be like this.

But, in Aus, post WWII Aus was built with Immigrants and
some damn fine work too.

Capetonian
8th Oct 2013, 05:25
As Hellsbrink, who has left this forum, pointed out, there is no such thing as an illegal immigrant. There are immigrants, many of whom are a positive contribution to the labour and gene pool (Indians and Polish in UK for example) and there are illegal aliens who generally are a drain on resources and having little are no accountability, are a threat to peace, security, and the economy.

Krystal n chips
8th Oct 2013, 07:03
" many of whom are a positive contribution to the labour and gene pool (Indians and Polish in UK for example) "

Well obviously !..clearly, an essential entry criterion for any aspiring immigrant arriving in the UK " and do you intend to have sexual intercourse with members of the indigenous population Ms / Mr xxxxx??".....

That said, narrowing the field as it were to two specific nationalities does rather limit the options now doesn't it ?......possibly no other immigrant nationalities are capable of sexual activity of course...you have to consider all the possibilities here as you have clearly given the matter some deep thought....

Still, a supportive post in favour of immigration is a start...I seem to recall past posts and indeed more than one of the same illustration showing the white cliffs of Dover and the legend" Keep out, we're full"...or something very similar....all from your self..

Ho hum !

dead_pan
8th Oct 2013, 08:17
As Hellsbrink, who has left this forum

I'm genuinely sorry to hear this. Despite his(?) many faults, it was fun sparring with him. Any idea why he left?

On the subject of recently departed Pruners, I see the incomparable Stuckgear also appears to have finally conceded the argument, in the face of superior reason and debate, and moved on to pastures new.

dead_pan
8th Oct 2013, 09:52
Back that up with some evidence.

Simples Nick. Just Google "Daily Mail immigration" and tell me how me how far down the list you have to go before you find an article which isn't in some way critical of immigration or immigrants. Also notice how often they differentiate between legal and illegal.

As I indicated in my post, the Mail's stance on this topic is well-known and easily discernable using even the most rudimentary of searches.

i said they MIGHT be carried elsewhere but it doesn't matter if they are or not

So presumably you've checked and found nothing. That figures, since it wasn't really "news" at all, was it? The only thing which made this story newsworthy in the Mail's eye was the fact the people were hiding in a lorry full of starch, giving them the opportunity to write a "hilarious" headline. Yes, lets all have a laugh at the stupid immigrants' expense.

Incidentally, I see you conveniently didn't mention the second Mail article I listed (the message in this article was crystal clear, wasn't it?). Tell me, how can people in France be illegal immigrants? They haven't even entered the country yet. Or are they campaigning against illegal immigration in that country too?

On the subject of lazy stereotypes, why do you assume that anyone who doesn't have a major issue with immigration is by definition left-wing? You've intimated this twice already. Are those on the right of politics not allowed to have a social conscience?

dead_pan
8th Oct 2013, 10:59
Are we set to welcome them with open arms?

Just watch out for your pockets. Oops, another lazy stereotype :ok:

Andu
8th Oct 2013, 12:19
Do your Romanians come bearing fake card slots fitted with neat little card and pin number readers that fit seamlessly onto ATMs?

Ours do.

Capetonian
8th Oct 2013, 15:42
I'm genuinely sorry to hear this. Despite his(?) many faults, it was fun sparring with him (Hellsbrink). Any idea why he left?

On the subject of recently departed Pruners, I see the incomparable Stuckgear also appears to have finally conceded the argument, in the face of superior reason and debate, and moved on to pastures new.

I understand that he (he is a he!) felt the forum was over-moderated and he's moved on to another where apparently his sometimes aggressive style is accepted. I enjoyed his posts too.

Stuckgear more or less the same, added to which he found he was spending too much time on Pprune - it can become addictive - and decided to spend more time on more productive pursuits, as indeed should many of us!

in the face of superior reason and debate
You mean the rantings of the lefties! Hardly superior.

airship
8th Oct 2013, 20:10
Capetonian wrote: The real villains of the piece are the imbeciles and lefties who opened up Europe to 'asylum seekers' from third world countries and in so doing drafted legislation that was so full of holes that it allowed just about anyone to claim 'asylum' and live off benefits whilst their often spurious claims and identity were being checked and processed.

This was further compounded by the Schengen agreement that ensured that once these unfortunates reached European soil, after paying extortionate sums of money to crooks, via the poorly guarded borders of Italy and Greece, in particular, they then had unfettered movement.

Those of you who expressed support for the EU and its lunacy are reaping what you sowed.

Capetonian, are you 100% sure that either, or both Stuckgear or Hellsbrink would be in 100% agreement with your recent statements? Or do you now speak for all those who no longer can under their original names. Or can't be bothered to register under another username? :confused:

PS. Simple "Rantings from the left or right" don't quite cut it IMHO. I'm continuously bullied by some here as I'm considered to be "anti-USA"...the "lazy" chips off the olde block...?! :ugh:

500N
8th Oct 2013, 20:17
airship

You can be anti USA on here, it just depends on how you go about it.

dead_pan
8th Oct 2013, 20:43
I understand that he (he is a he!) felt the forum was over-moderated and he's moved on to another where apparently his sometimes aggressive style is accepted. I enjoyed his posts too.

I didn't consider his style anything near aggressive. Like many others hereabouts, he seemed forever perplexed by the complexities of the modern world :ok:


Stuckgear more or less the same, added to which he found he was spending too much time on PPRuNe - it can become addictive - and decided to spend more time on more productive pursuits, as indeed should many of us!

More productive pursuits, what like baiting puppies or applique?

Actually I think that post by Turin in the last but one UKIP thread must have struck a chord with poor old Stuckie (it was bl**dy funny, though). Either that or he over-reached himself mentally or physically.

Ah well, PPRuNe will only be the worse for their passing. Lighweights.

Capetonian
9th Oct 2013, 00:41
dead_pan

More productive pursuits, what like baiting puppies or applique?
Ah well, PPRuNe will only be the worse for their passing. Lighweights.
Uncalled for and inappropriate.

MagnusP
9th Oct 2013, 12:40
I'm slightly nonplussed by this:

BBC News - Italy to hold state funeral for shipwreck migrants (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-24456058)

500N
9th Oct 2013, 14:00
Why a State Funeral ??????

Seems a bit weird.

Capetonian
9th Oct 2013, 14:13
State Funeral? Why? They weren't Italians, they had no right to be in Italy nor heading for it, and above all this would imply some admission of guilt on the part of the Italian authorities, which is quite wrong.

These people who were victims of the tyrannies of their own leaders and the greed of people smugglers deserve a funeral, but a state funeral, at massive expensive, in a country to which they had no connections, let alone allegiance, makes no sense.

Lonewolf_50
9th Oct 2013, 14:43
They weren't Italians, they had no right to be in Italy nor heading for it, and above all this would imply some admission of guilt on the part of the Italian authorities, which is quite wrong. These people who were victims of the tyrannies of their own leaders and the greed of people smugglers deserve a funeral, but a state funeral, at massive expensive, in a country to which they had no connections, let alone allegiance, makes no sense.
When bleeding heart libs are involved, making sense isn't on the menu. :p

skydiver69
9th Oct 2013, 16:19
Why a State Funeral ??????

Seems a bit weird.

My theory is that this is reverse psychology designed to discourage illegal immigration because when people hear about this they'll think that us Europeans are so stupid that there can't be much incentive to travel here.

airship
9th Oct 2013, 17:45
MagnusP wrote: I'm slightly nonplussed by this: BBC News - Italy to hold state funeral for shipwreck migrants

500N wrote: Why a State Funeral ??????
Seems a bit weird.

Capetonian wrote: State Funeral? Why? They weren't Italians, they had no right to be in Italy nor heading for it, and above all this would imply some admission of guilt on the part of the Italian authorities, which is quite wrong.

These people who were victims of the tyrannies of their own leaders and the greed of people smugglers deserve a funeral, but a state funeral, at massive expensive, in a country to which they had no connections, let alone allegiance, makes no sense.

Lonewolf_50 wrote: When bleeding heart libs are involved, making sense isn't on the menu. :p

All of the above apparently have no capacity of empathy.

Do you (or have you ever), MagnusP, 500N or Capetonian, paid any income or corporation taxes etc. to the Italian government...?! If not, just what are you complaining about exactly (just because you have a pain in the arse), that does not necessarily mean that you have a valid reason to blame the Italians...?! :confused:

The recent tragedy (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-24456058) and subsequent decision by the Italians to conduct a "State Funeral" is IMHO, entirely decent and valid. :ok::ok::ok: I doubt very much that their "countries of origin" (if ever determined) will cough-up the funds necessary to repatriate the bodies of the several hundreds of victims who lost their lives in the vicinity of Lampedusa most recently. The EU as a whole, should be doing much more to come to the aid of countries like Italy and Greece who're "on the front-line"... :mad:

Why do so many here insist on "picking on" or "bullying" some of the most vulnerable of other human-beings on the planet? :confused::sad:

If (or when) the next Ice Age hits Northern Europe, will the UK (and others), simply "nuke" the mainly North African countries which might offer our citizens succour, and a new place to live? Is that the legacy you wish to leave your great, great, great grand-children (or whatever)? I can imagine (ca. 2060), North Africa (principally Morocco and Tunisia) providing upwards of 70% of Europe's electricity requirements via solar energy technologies.

If there's any justice, North African countries should indeed welcome all Northern European refugees with "open arms". Provided that they traversed the Mediterranean sea in small, leaky wooden boats over-loaded well-beyond their capacity etc. :ok::E

Presumably, several decades hence, we'll find the descendents of MagnusP, 500N or Capetonian, on some forum or another, asking for advice on the costs and for contacts for passage from Europe to North Africa via any means...? :rolleyes:

Capetonian
9th Oct 2013, 17:55
Airship. I completely and utterly agree with every wise word of your posting. You are, in an academic and spiritual sense, my hero, my guru, and the person whose light leads to me towards righteousness and salvation.

Thank you for helping me to see the error of my ways and for sharing your wisdom and generosity of spirit. In fact, next time I'm in Antibes I'll invite you for a good feed at one of those fancy restaurants on the ramparts, but you can pay for edit : your grog as I am not sure that my 'flexible friend' is quite that flexible. I'll pay for mine.
http://kyla40.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/not_so_flexible_friend.jpg

500N
9th Oct 2013, 18:04
airship
"All of the above apparently have no capacity of empathy."
Thanks, I've been told that quite a few times before.

"Presumably, several decades hence, we'll find the descendents of MagnusP, 500N or Capetonian, on some forum or another, asking for advice on the costs and for contacts for passage from Europe to North Africa via any means...? :rolleyes:"

I don't have any "descendents" so no, they won't be.

Now, I might not have paid taxes in Italy but I was looking at it like
Australia giving a State funeral to the 1500+ people who have drowned
trying to get to Aus of the last 4 years.

airship
9th Oct 2013, 18:44
Now, I might not have paid taxes in Italy but I was looking at it like Australia giving a State funeral to the 1500+ people who have drowned trying to get to Aus of the last 4 years.

Do you really think that the OZ government "did not supply and pay for" adequate numbers of coffins and/or burial arrangements for those you mention above?! The OZ government might prefer that the rest of the World paid less attention to the asylum seekers there. That doesn't mean that OZ is disrespectful. Italy, along with Greece, currently bear the brunt of dealing with asylum-seekers, with little help from the EU.

Italy has every right to declare a "State Funeral" IMHO. To commemorate an un-necessary loss of lives. Where the EU's facilities (in this case represented by Italy) were insufficient to cope adequately.

So, why do you "insist"?! Do you make a habit of swatting "5 flies" in 1 foul swoop, just because you can? Is it to please a lady? If so, give her a box of Cadbury's "Milk Tray", or get rid of her before she really twists yer mind mate... :ok:

StressFree
9th Oct 2013, 19:00
I admire your desire for common humanity amongst all humans but the reality is that there are too many of us on this planet, we don't in Europe have the capacity to open the doors and let everyone in, we simply cannot do it.

You live in a simplistic and unreal world, planet Earth these days is not Utopia.

Get real.

I mean you no offence and as I said your humanity is admirable but this is the real World. We can't all sit around camp fires singing songs about how great it is to be alive, it's good for some of us and awful for others, but however you wring your hands over it, it will NEVER change, we will never have a perfect species living in harmony with each other, especially whilst the population grows and grows and grows..... :sad:

500N
9th Oct 2013, 19:08
Airship

A lot of the bodies of Australian Asylum seekers that drowned
are never recovered. Those that are are buried in a coffin.
Because they are so "organised" as opposed to true AS,
more often than not they are buried by the family here in Aus.

Lightning Mate
9th Oct 2013, 19:10
Does anyone actually care ?

500N
9th Oct 2013, 19:14
I think we have already determined that.

Lonewolf_50
9th Oct 2013, 21:00
All of the above apparently have no capacity of empathy.
I have immense empathy for the hard working Italian taxpayers.

Your churlish attitude towards them is noted.

Who do you think funds the coast guard and navy Italy uses to patrol the seas and find these unfortunate fools who have no idea how to handle watercraft on the high seas?

dead_pan
9th Oct 2013, 22:49
hard working Italian taxpayers

Uhh? Isn't this a double oxymoron? I thought it was a matter of national pride in Italy to do as little work as possible and pay a few taxes as possible.

dead_pan
9th Oct 2013, 22:52
Uncalled for and inappropriate.

W'ever.

If you are in comms with them both pass on my regards and let them know they're always welcome back, whenever they're suitably rested/rehabilitated :ok:

Lonewolf_50
9th Oct 2013, 22:52
Uhh? Isn't this a double oxymoron? I thought it was a matter of national pride in Italy to do as little work as possible and pay a few taxes as
possible.
Based on my own experiences, I saw some of that in Italy, but I also saw some pretty hard working folks.

Their fuel tax is over 200% of the price per litre of gas.
They all seem to have cars ... therefore ... they are mostly taxpayers. :ok:

Their cheating on IVA, on the other hand, is legendary. ;)

dead_pan
9th Oct 2013, 23:07
I admire your desire for common humanity amongst all humans but the reality is that there are too many of us on this planet, we don't in Europe have the capacity to open the doors and let everyone in, we simply cannot do it.

Ah Stressy, good to have you back. I'd thought you'd thrown in the towel too.

I think the option of sealing our borders will only exacerbate the problem in the medium to long term. These people are simply not going to give up and go away (many of them have literally nothing to lose). As I said before we need to find a way of encouraging them to stay put in their home countries by helping them develop & industrialize through favourable trade deals etc.

On this topic I read an interview the Paul Greengrass (director of Captain Phillips) gave a few weeks back and he said the developed world was moving towards becoming a kind of supranational gated community, with our goods having to be moved between the various 'safe' zones under armed escort, given increasing risk of piracy and terrorism. His view was that this emerging state of affairs was both highly dangerous and unsustainable in the long term.

dead_pan
9th Oct 2013, 23:13
I also saw some pretty hard working folks

Let me guess, that was somewhere in the north of the country, the bit which wants to break away from south?

The only people who work hard in the south are the picciotto...

bosnich71
10th Oct 2013, 05:02
Airship ..... I rally thought that you were taking the p**s or being sarky in your post @ 3.45 but after reading some of your later ones I'm not sure. Can you verify one way or the other ?

bosnich71
10th Oct 2013, 05:08
Dead Pan ...Ref Italians doing as little work as possible etc. Not sure about Italians in Italy but around where I live in Melbourne the Italians ... some of whom are relatives of mine .... work their Kn*****s off ! I feel tired just watching them. :O

500N
10th Oct 2013, 05:14
bosnich

Agree. They helped build Australia after WWII.

A fair few say that the Snowy Scheme would never have been built
if it wasn't for the Italians, Greeks, Maltese and all the others that
came on the boats.

Capetonian
10th Oct 2013, 05:37
The Italians in South Africa are some of the hardest working people there, many in building, hospitality and other services.

Their own country is a mess though, but it's part of the tragi-comedy that is the EU, so they don't need to work to survive.

500N
10th Oct 2013, 05:40
"many in building, hospitality and other services."

Same here.

A lot went into the building / construction / painting / plastering business.
They are great concreters !!!

A heap opened up Restaurants and Coffee shops and gave Melbourne
a huge Cosmo atmosphere. Plus of course Pizzas !!!

Andu
10th Oct 2013, 06:14
The Italians arrived in North Queensland quite a few years before the big post WW2 influx to the southern states. They were mostly Calabrians, who were used to the hot weather, and they were imported to work the sugar fields towards the end of the 19th century after the plantations were prevented from employing Kanakas (Pacific Islanders) - in what amounted to thinly-disguised slavery - by an act of Parliament.

This dispelled the myth that white men could not do hard manual labour outdoors in the tropics, and many if not most of the Italians, who proved to be very hard workers, within two to three generations, owned their own farms and were among the more wealthy landowners in the north.

500N
10th Oct 2013, 06:20
Cape

One other business they went into was Fruit growing.

And drugs :O. The infamous Mafia of Central NSW !!!

Solid Rust Twotter
10th Oct 2013, 08:09
In SA, Zonderwater prison near Cullinan was one of the holding centres for Italian POWs. After the war, many chose to settle down in SA as they'd been out on day release for most of the war and had got to know many local people.

An ex Italian POW family friend had a smallholding near us where he grew vines and would make his own wine, grappa and liqueurs. His grandchildren all grew up in the Italian manner having a small glass of watered down wine with meals so they were quite used to it. Muggins, of course, wasn't...:rolleyes:

After Sunday lunch with Dario and his family, I'd often roll home in the back seat of the folks' car, totally pie eyed. The most memorable occasion was my first taste of the bravery that comes with alcohol consumption, where I found myself 80' up a pine tree and had to stay there until my head straightened out enough to climb down.

Must say, he made some spiffing liqueurs from his own grapes. He had a cellar under the house where he stored his wine, hams and cheeses, something I've had as an objective since those days. It just seems an eminently useful thing to have.

SOPS
10th Oct 2013, 09:25
And you know what else those Italians and Greeks that came to Australia did? Assimilated. And became a welcome part of Australian society. They didnt expect the Australian culture to change for them, unlike the country shoppers we have arriving now.

And they sure didn't send their kids out with banners reading ' behead all those that insult the prophet', as we saw in Sydney recently.

500N
10th Oct 2013, 09:48
SOPS

Well said.

I will say thought that IMHO, they did change Australias culture,
they converted everyone (most) to Latte's, Capucino's, Short Blacks,
a heap of pasta and other food (Pizzas).

main_dog
10th Oct 2013, 10:12
I will say thought that IMHO, they did change Australias culture

And for the better, I might add... at least now you have an idea what it means to eat properly down there! :}

All jokes aside, that is what happens with proper integration, the immigrants become a productive part of their host country's fabric whilst enriching the local culture. IMHO.

500N
10th Oct 2013, 10:17
Your are right. I wasn't around prior to 1978 but have heard from others that
the traditional Aussie food was same, same, same, very English.
The Chinese are the other culture that has integrated very well
into Australia. I know they have had 200 years to do it but you
never read of problems even way back then.

SOPS
Re "And they sure didn't send their kids out with banners reading ' behead all those that insult the prophet', as we saw in Sydney recently."

Look at what happened when the Lebbos got a bit heavy handed in Cronulla.
You soon had a few thousand Aussies marching and a few heads cracked.

That is what I am talking about IF things ever get out of hand,
Aussies are not going to take it lying down, they will take the
fight back to them.

Cronulla was just the start and no way in hell is the Gov't able to
contain it if Aussies start to fight back.

MagnusP
10th Oct 2013, 13:00
A state funeral is a public funeral ceremony, observing the strict rules of protocol, held to honor people of national significance.

Why are the dead to be considered of such national significance that they merit a STATE funeral. Bury them with dignity, by all means, but a STATE funeral? Buggerall to do with empathy.

G-CPTN
10th Oct 2013, 14:37
Isn't a Pauper's Funeral also a State Funeral?

I believe that the State appoints a Chief Mourner.

G-CPTN
10th Oct 2013, 14:40
Italian State Funeral (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_funeral#Italy).

500N
10th Oct 2013, 17:34
Basil

Not all of them are bad. Just some.

SOPS
10th Oct 2013, 17:40
The prats just tend to stand out, due their inflated view of their own self importance.:E

G-CPTN
11th Oct 2013, 18:32
Boat with 200 migrants capsizes off Lampedusa (http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2013/10/11/boat-with-200-migrants-capsizes-off-lampedusa/2966547/)

Andu
11th Oct 2013, 23:20
I really didn't understand the thinking behind the Italians holding a state funeral being held for the last lot. Will there be another one if there are deaths on this second boat?

G-CPTN
12th Oct 2013, 20:38
BBC News - Lampedusa: 'Symbols of vivid desperation' (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-24486182)

Bear in mind that Lampedusa lies some 110 miles from Sicily and a similar distance from Malta and 70 miles from Tunisia:-

Wikimapia - Let's describe the whole world! (http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=35.541166&lon=12.568359&z=7&m=b)

BenThere
12th Oct 2013, 21:03
I sympathize with the people who are so desperate to leave their homes that they invest their savings and embark on a journey with huge risk to get to a better place for themselves and families.

The welfare state draws them and encourages them to take such risk.

The responsibility, though, lies with themselves and their societies that have failed to create social structure and governments able to provide basic safety, Freedom, and fairness so they can live happy and meaningful lives where they were born and in their own culture.

They have no right to just show up and expect other, more responsible societies to take them in and meet their needs, particularly when they have failed in the past to respect the cultures they are invading.

G-CPTN
12th Oct 2013, 21:26
Apparently, some of these 'refugees' are from Syria. :ugh:

500N
12th Oct 2013, 21:38
BenThere

Good comment.

500N
13th Oct 2013, 20:20
You have to wonder what goes through some of these peoples heads.

Shocking image of hundreds of African migrants on raft bound for Europe as it emerges 20,000 may have died in past two decades | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2457791/Shocking-image-hundreds-African-migrants-raft-bound-Europe-emerges-20-000-died-past-decades.html)

Shocking image of hundreds of African migrants on raft bound for Europe as it emerges 20,000 may have died in past two decades

http://i43.tinypic.com/1znajhf.jpg

SOPS
13th Oct 2013, 20:37
How can they possibly even think, this could be a safe undertaking?

500N
13th Oct 2013, 20:41
We could have found a possible use for Greenpeace and their ships,
on the basis they don't do anything else useful and always bleat
about A/seekers, let them patrol the coast and pick up survivors
- and of course use the copious amounts of money they have to
clothe and feed them !!!

MagnusP
14th Oct 2013, 08:18
Just wondering. Did the victims of the Costa Concordia disaster (including several Italian nationals) get offered a state funeral?

500N
14th Oct 2013, 08:19
No, I don't think they did.

SOPS
14th Oct 2013, 09:40
No, the state funeral is a 'guilt trip' thing, IMHO.

dead_pan
14th Oct 2013, 09:41
I sympathize with the people who are so desperate to leave their homes that they invest their savings and embark on a journey with huge risk to get to a better place for themselves and families.

The welfare state draws them and encourages them to take such risk.


Ben, you started so well, yet here you go again reverting to your same old narrow world view i.e. that it is all the fault of socialism.

The vast majority of these people aren't intent on exploiting us; they simply want the opportunity to improve their lot, you know, get work, that type of thing. The fact is there are b*gger all opportunities to do so in their home countries, hence their motivation to move on somewhere else.

Of course, man has being doing this for time in memoriam - opportunities and resources dry up, so you up sticks and move on. Its only now becoming a bit problematic to do so, ever since we've divided the planet up into a number of arbitrary closed land packages with huge discrepancies in wealth between (and within) each.

500N
14th Oct 2013, 09:43
Absolutely a guilt trip. The way the lefties like to run things :(

They have quietened down in Aus since they realised
they are not going to get anywhere.

Capetonian
14th Oct 2013, 09:48
The Italians should have felt far guiltier about the Costa Concordia disaster than the illegal aliens. An Italian ship, operated by an Italian company, and in the command of an Italian who had been licensed by the Italian authorities.

And I too blame the welfare state for the volume of illegals seeking entry but then I'm not exactly a lefty) but I blame, to a greater degree, the greed of the people who are exploiting these unfortunates and charging them for these clearly perilous voyages. I also blame the EU for implementing the Schengen agreement, without which much of this would not be happening.

500N
14th Oct 2013, 09:53
dead pan

Their were bugger all opportunities in all countries at one point
until someone made something useful and sold it to someone else
and it grew from there.

Yes, things are hard but backwards countries have progressed in
the past without mass migration.

I just think people's expectations are so much higher now
and they see the welfare states and think yep, I want a part
of that.

dead_pan
14th Oct 2013, 09:55
Interesting feature running on Sky this morning about immigration. According to one of their polls a whopping 67% of people think the UK government should take "drastic action" to reduce our burgeoning population :eek:

Worrying stuff.

dead_pan
14th Oct 2013, 09:57
500N - not sure if you can get Sky but its certainly worth a watch. Common theme is people coming here for (and getting) work.

500N
14th Oct 2013, 10:03
deadpan

No, can't get sky but read the UK media all the time, not just the Daily Mail
but others as well.

I see the DM has an article about people wanting the Gov't to cut welfare
until people have worked - or the Gov't wanting to do it.

dead_pan
14th Oct 2013, 10:06
I also blame the EU for implementing the Schengen agreement, without which much of this would not be happening.

Absolutely not. It would still be happening without Schengen, the only difference being those countries on the EU's southern & eastern flank (Greece, Italy, Spain etc) would be over-run with people trying to get in, more so than they are at the moment.

It appears the traffickers operating through Libya have returned with a vengeance. You'll recall part of the reason Gaddaffi was rehabilitated by the international community during the latter stages of his regime was because be pledged to stop them operating, and then did so very effectively.

dead_pan
14th Oct 2013, 10:08
I see the DM has an article about people wanting the Gov't to cut welfare
until people have worked - or the Gov't wanting to do it.

All kinds of stuff is being discussed at the moment, albeit most of it aimed at our home-grown benefits scroungers.

500N
14th Oct 2013, 10:38
dead pan

The pressure is starting to build !

People don't like seeing what they have built diluted, given away to others who
haven't put in the same amount of work or taken away in full.

Capetonian
14th Oct 2013, 10:42
Quote:
I also blame the EU for implementing the Schengen agreement, without which much of this would not be happening.
Absolutely not. It would still be happening without Schengen, the only difference being those countries on the EU's southern & eastern flank (Greece, Italy, Spain etc) would be over-run with people trying to get in, more so than they are at the moment.
Whilst this is speculative, I disagree. The greater the catchment area and the more people it can potentially absorb, the more people will be attracted to it. Schengen opens this all up.

dead_pan
14th Oct 2013, 10:56
I suppose Schengen just helps spread the burden :ok: My point was that people would still want to come here regardless of how easy it was to move around once they got in (the US or Oz aren't a party to Schengen).

Anyway, the majority of migration to the UK over recent years has been from elsewhere within the EU - Sky pointed this out today.

dead_pan
14th Oct 2013, 11:04
The pressure is starting to build !

It has always been thus, or at least as long as I can remember - people failing to get work out of school, people starting families way before they can support them or give their kids a good start in life, people leading ever more unhealthy and narcissistic lifestyles but, thanks to modern medicine, living ever longer etc etc. Demographics and globalisation are at the root of our collective plight; migration is but a symptom.

Cacophonix
14th Oct 2013, 11:29
There seems to be a shibboleth or a gross assumption at play at the basis of the arguments of many who post here that runs along the lines that 'people leave their homes in search of easy hands outs and benefits in the UK' (for example).

While this assumption predicates much of the propaganda that is mindlessly cranked out by many press outlets here, there is precious little evidence that this is the case (please point me to solid analysis and statistics that might make me change my opinion).

What people who have never lived in fear of their lives, whether it be through potential starvation or religious genocide or war, fail to perceive is that leaving one's place of birth for a distant cold and not altogether welcoming or pleasant land is a huge deal and is only undertaken in extremis.

Large parts of Africa, particularly north Africa where political collapse, war, religious intolerance, drought and agricultural chaos make day to day life, let alone living, a perilous business that forces people there to face up to the simple choice of move or die.

The majority of the poor souls that died (and still die) a wretched death in the Mediterranean do so because of a stark inhuman choice between life and death, not because they want part of the NHS budget or benefits or anything that the cossetted, closeted and myopic Little Englanders so fervently believe is the case.

Caco

Andu
14th Oct 2013, 11:35
It's how the Holy Roman Empire was toppled and the world endured 1000 years, most of which was called the Dark Ages. Rome wasn't toppled by rampaging invading armies, but slow incursions of the peoples of the outlying provinces of the Empire, coming to Rome to enjoy the better life in the centre of the Empire.

That life, for a Roman citizen, amounted to the Welfare State of those days, with citizens provided with heavily subsidised grain to keep them compliant. It worked so long as there was a large Empire to be exploited and a manageable population in Rome, most of whom who gave service to the Empire before they enjoyed the largesse in later life. It ceased to work when tens of thousands of outsiders came in to Rome demanding their share of that finite largesse without first giving anything to earn it.

Of course, today, we're far too smart and sophisticated to ever let anything like that happen to our oh so clever society. Aren't we?

dead_pan
14th Oct 2013, 11:37
Well said Caco.

I for one would be intrigued to know exactly what proportion of our health & welfare budgets are spent on immigrants (legal or otherwise), say compared to on our own underclass or, dare I say, retiree, populations.

Cacophonix
14th Oct 2013, 11:40
It's how the Holy Roman Empire was toppled and the world endured 1000 years, most of which was called the Dark Ages. Rome wasn't toppled by rampaging invading armies, but slow incursions of the peoples of the outlying provinces of the Empire, coming to Rome to enjoy the better life in the centre of the Empire.



A little but too simplistic methinks... sure, the barbarian hordes had something to do with the collapse of the Empire but they hardly decided to settle in Rome and thereby undermine something that hadn't already been undermined by a myriad of other causes as your argument seems to suggest...

A great basis for a whole interesting thread on its own though.... ;)

Caco

500N
14th Oct 2013, 11:41
"There seems to be a shibboleth or a gross assumption at play at the basis of the arguments of many who post here that runs along the lines that 'people leave their homes in search of easy hands outs and benefits in the UK' (for example).

While this assumption predicates much of the propaganda that is mindlessly cranked out by many press outlets here, there is precious little evidence that this is the case (please point me to solid analysis and statistics that might make me change my opinion). "


In Australia's case, straight from the AS themselves, they have said straight
out that they want to come to Aus and no where else, because it is so good.
And they know it.


Re Africa, as an example which I know is not popular with a slot of people
but we talk about having an economy, you have a huge number of rich white
people who would readily jump on a plane and go and hunt there and
pump huge amounts of money into places. But wither not allowed,
Greenies don't like any hunting so persuade Gov'ts to ban it with the
end result that only the poachers roam.

When you have people who pay from $20,000 to $100,000 for
a two week trip, it adds up, benefits flow far and wide and that
is apart from the meat / food aspect (On most Safaris, all meat
is used by locals in Africa and it doesn't cost them anything).

Zim is an example where Agriculture and Hunting turned to crap
because of the leaders and went from a good economy to a starving
one in short order.


Give them aid, they will always be dependant.

Teach them to value wildlife, grow it and sell it in a sustainable way,
they not only get food but an income from it as well.

Lightning Mate
14th Oct 2013, 11:42
Out of formation again..............

Cacophonix
14th Oct 2013, 11:44
Out of formation again..............


Clearly a solo display specialist... ;)

Caco

dead_pan
14th Oct 2013, 12:03
Teach them to value wildlife, grow it and sell it in a sustainable way,
they not only get food but an income from it as well.

So what you're saying nurture your wildlife so that rich white men can come and shoot it? Sounds like a sound & ethical business model to me.

Call me old-fashioned I don't think an economy based on huntin' and shootin' would sustain many people at all. Maybe a better idea would be to pay the white man to come and hunt the people themselves? Somehow I think there would be much more interest in this

500N
14th Oct 2013, 12:23
dead pan

Their would be interest in the second option but it's illegal and they
would be arrested on return to their home country.

"So what you're saying nurture your wildlife so that rich white men can come and shoot it? Sounds like a sound & ethical business model to me."

Well, at the moment it has NO monetary value to the locals,
it gets killed anyway as it competes with cattle (which isn't good
for the environment) or by poachers who only take one part of it,
the meat and skin is lost.

"Call me old-fashioned I don't think an economy based on huntin' and shootin' would sustain many people at all."

1. Hunter pays to hunt animal, transport (vehicles and aircraft) required.
2. PH and locals employed on hunt and in camp.
3. All the food etc required for the camp purchased locally
4. Skin and Horns are taxidermied often in country and then
packed and shipped. All money that stays in the country.

And that is just a small part.

Hunting can increase numbers and save species. Have a read of these.

Hunters Paying $150,000 to Kill an Endangered Rhino May Save the Species - Bloomberg (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-12-09/hunters-paying-150-000-to-kill-an-endangered-rhino-may-save-the-species.html)

Fees of $150,000 to hunt a black rhino may save the species | PERC ? The Property and Environment Research Center (http://perc.org/articles/fees-150000-hunt-black-rhino-may-save-species)

Cacophonix
14th Oct 2013, 12:35
I feel we might be going off on a huge tangent here but... hunting, fishing and tourism form a significant part of African economies, particularly south of the equator. Sadly in many cases, species like rhino are hunted and poached into extinction... (in the case of the rhino due to Chinese lust for the supposed aphrodisiacal properties of rhino horn... may God make their genitalia even smaller than they already are) ... often they are simply slaughtered as in this disgusting case in Zimbabwe.

Zimbabwe poachers kill 80 elephants, poisoning water holes with cyanide | Environment | theguardian.com (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/25/zimbabwe-poachers-kill-80-elephants-cyanide)

Still, bigger political and economic issues pertain, without capital investment in agriculture and infrastructure people are subject to the vagaries of the weather and the availability of water for drinking and irrigation. Such investment is predicated upon political stability and the rule of law... (therein lies the problem)... in many cases animals are hunted for bush meat and for the short term money that foreign traders who exploit the situation can bring...

Caco

Ancient Observer
14th Oct 2013, 12:46
The Next World War

It is becoming very obvious that the next World War will be between the "West" and some Militant Muslim countries.

Given that the Trots and Pinkoes who who appear to support mass immigration allow lots of Muslims in to "The West", how many of those Muslims are sleepers for those intent on holding the next World War?

500N
14th Oct 2013, 12:50
Caco

I read about that poisoning, very bad indeed.

Rhino are going to be poached to extinction if something isn't done about it.
The locals don't have much interest because they have no value to them.

Very few (White) Rhino are hunted (legally) because not many licenses are issued (sold) in a year.

Even PAC (Problem Animal Control) animals are sold at a cheaper rate
to generate $$$$$. The animals are going to be shot anyway (often by rangers)
but if they sell it to a hunter, it brings in $$$$.

Fareastdriver
14th Oct 2013, 12:57
So what you're saying nurture your wildlife so that rich white men can come and shoot it?

The Scottish Highlands seem to be doing very well on that principle.

dead_pan
14th Oct 2013, 13:05
The Scottish Highlands seem to be doing very well on that principle.

That's because us English helpfully got rid of all those pesky little landowners for you!

Don't get me started on bl00dy shooting - the mere mention of the words "Hen Harrier" send me in paroxysms of hatred.

dead_pan
14th Oct 2013, 13:14
1. Hunter pays to hunt animal, transport (vehicles and aircraft) required.
2. PH and locals employed on hunt and in camp.
3. All the food etc required for the camp purchased locally
4. Skin and Horns are taxidermied often in country and then
packed and shipped. All money that stays in the country.

Small beer compared with the likes of tourism - I'd contend there are far more people out there who'd be willing to pay to see these animals in their prime, natural habitat (me for one), rather than blasting the hell out of them.

MagnusP
14th Oct 2013, 14:29
The Scottish Highlands seem to be doing very well on that principle.

And dentists in Edinburgh. :* Bloody game pie with shot in it . . .

500N
14th Oct 2013, 14:45
Dead pan

Both can co exist easily in an area as large as Africa.

And if you just leave the animals by themselves, you will need to cull
them anyway otherwise one species will wipe out another.

500N
14th Oct 2013, 15:26
I know it is the Daily Mail but I did like this one.

'You have no right to be in the UK and you should leave': Extraordinary moment immigration minister tells five-time failed asylum seeker to go home on live TV


Tory Mark Harper says Iraqi Esam Amin has no right to stay in Britain
Highly-charged confrontation organised by BBC television producers

Mr Amin has lost legal bids for asylum in the UK six times since 2008
Mr Harper said claims were ‘ridiculous’ and he ‘should leave’ the country

Mark Harper tells five-time failed asylum seeker to go home on live TV | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2458617/Mark-Harper-tells-time-failed-asylum-seeker-home-live-TV.html)

Cacophonix
14th Oct 2013, 15:29
Tory Mark Harper


Maybe Mark Harper wants to go to Iraq and see what a [email protected] up was made there in the name of the UK government and shut his petty pretty boy Tory cakehole...

Caco

500N
14th Oct 2013, 15:35
Caco

I liked it for two reasons.

1, you hardly ever see a pollie speak like that.
2. The endless applications and appeals.

Cacophonix
14th Oct 2013, 15:44
you hardly ever see a pollie speak like that.


I'd be more impressed by this little accountant from the Forest of Dean (or wherever his meagre spirit comes from) if he had ever worked or done a thing or really cared a jot for the well being of the Iraqis.

His message is "we believe we have the right to stuff your country up but sure as hell don't come here"...

I spit on the man's hubris.

Caco

Rwy in Sight
14th Oct 2013, 16:53
Although we are a bit away from the discussion of prevention may I point out the need to see how the FRONTEX work. They do patrol some sea and land borders but I think more often than not they function as a welcome commitee rather than a force to stop the immigrants to cross the border.

And also I would be useful to make the illegal immigrants aware that they will receive no social assistance hence rendering the effort worthless.

Rwy in Sight

BenThere
14th Oct 2013, 19:09
"So what you're saying nurture your wildlife so that rich white men can come and shoot it? Sounds like a sound & ethical business model to me."

So what you're saying is let the great beasts be poached to extinction so rich Chinese men can get some super 'me so horny' powder from the horns, or a display of cool ivory. Sounds like a viable ecological model to me. :cool:

I'm not closely familiar with the conservation structure in Africa, but in the US, outdoors and hunting organizations such as Ducks Unlimited have done more to preserve habitat and promote healthy herds and flocks of wild animals than the Environmental Protection Agency, which is really committed to stifling economic development so much more than protecting species or the environment.

dead_pan
14th Oct 2013, 22:57
So what you're saying is let the great beasts be poached to extinction so rich Chinese men can get some super 'me so horny' powder from the horns, or a display of cool ivory. Sounds like a viable ecological model to me.

Err, I don't think I said that Ben. Any model where the poor beast ends up dead is not a good plan IMO.

Ducks Unlimited

I'm not closely familiar with conservation in the USA, but if this outfit are anything like Songbirds Survival here in the UK, I'd seriously question their motivations and aims. Despite its apparently honest intent, it transpires this organisation is nothing more than a cynical huggy-fluffy front for the shooting lobby ("oh lets protect all those lovely songbirds by shooting all those nasty raptors, which, by pure coincidence, may also eat the very occasional pheasant or partridge")

And if you just leave the animals by themselves, you will need to cull
them anyway otherwise one species will wipe out another.

Really? They seem to have done alright by themselves for the past few thousand millennia. This concept of "managing" animals i.e. shooting them for their own benefit, is often trotted out here in the UK, generally by those who have run out of excuses to justify their actions.

500N
14th Oct 2013, 23:13
dead pan

"Err, I don't think I said that Ben. Any model where the poor beast ends up dead is not a good plan IMO."

Are you a vegetarian ?

If you leave Elephants to themselves, they 1. Destroy the habitat of everything
for all other animals and 2. Grow in numbers that eventually the starve to death in great numbers.

Have a look on Google, type in Peter Beard here is the book of photos.
It will open your eyes.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-End-Game-Last-Paradise/dp/3836505304/ref=pd_sim_b_4/279-8904970-4900108 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-End-Game-Last-Paradise/dp/3836505304/ref=pd_sim_b_4/279-8904970-4900108)

""oh lets protect all those lovely songbirds by shooting all those nasty raptors, which, by pure coincidence, may also eat the very occasional pheasant or partridge""

I think you seriously need to do some research before commenting.
Grouse, partridge and pheasant rearing areas in the UK have a higher number of raptors than even the RSPB protected areas - and even they acknowledge that.

Re the last bit, as said above, look at the Peter Beard book.

BenThere
14th Oct 2013, 23:29
dead_pan, I was only paraphrasing your 'so you're saying' remark, in which you castigated white men, substituting rich Chinese as the villain. I thought it was clever.

Ducks Unlimited has preserved habitat and fostered land stewardship for a healthy natural balance as I've observed directly in Northern California.

In the same region, EPA shut down an entire forestry industry and destroyed tens of thousands of jobs in the name of the Spotted Owl, a species, as it turned out, that ultimately did better in timber company-managed forests than outside of them. It turns out their real nemesis was other owls rather than man. Now the industry and jobs are gone, and whole communities are ghost towns, but the situation of the Spotted Owl is unchanged.

dead_pan
15th Oct 2013, 09:15
I think you seriously need to do some research before commenting.

Likewise:

Richard Benyon: The bird-brained minister - Nature - Environment - The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/nature/richard-benyon-the-birdbrained-minister-7794159.html)

BTW the RSPB was forever discredited over the whole "Did Harry shoot a Hen Harrier at Sandringham?" fiasco. Lost members in their droves. I personally would take any of their pronunciations regarding raptors with a huge pinch of salt.

Anyway, back to the thread topic, that Sky feature on immigration they're running this week was very enlightening again this morning. They showed a video clip posted by some rabid, in-bred white British woman who basically said immigrants were making it harder for her to claim benefits :ugh:

Also, what does everyone think about the new proposal to relax immigration rules for those wealthy Chinese folk?

airship
17th Oct 2013, 18:35
I often feel "very sad" when considering the plight of refugees, whether they are economic, political, or fleeing wars etc. In the back of my mind always lingers the thought that "by the grace of God (or by fortune of having been born into my family and/or country), there go I".

From this BBC report on Somalia and hyenas (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-24539989) etc. : Some concepts of mental illness do not even exist in Somali culture - depression, for example, translates as "the feelings a camel has when its friend dies".

So all is not "lost" for Somalia or her refugees. Any culture that recognizes that "even camels can feel sad", feeling empathy for them also deserves some of my own... :ok:

Lonewolf_50
17th Oct 2013, 20:37
The USS San Antonio just pulled a skiff load (http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/10/17/21004863-uss-san-antonio-rescues-migrants-from-mediterranean-sea-near-malta?lite) of hopeless and helpless idiots out of the water, where it seems they were on their way to Malta.

dead_pan
17th Oct 2013, 22:01
In what respect are they idiots? What they are trying to do makes absolute sense.

Lonewolf_50
17th Oct 2013, 22:42
Sorry, dead-pan, you are speaking to a navy man.

Going to sea in a non-seaworthy craft (based on the typical overloading) is the doing of idiots.

500N
17th Oct 2013, 22:51
Lonewolf

Exactly.


I'd add that for the one's here in Aus, it is both a non-seaworthy craft AND over loading.

Although that had been a blessing in some ways.

dead_pan
17th Oct 2013, 22:57
Sorry, dead-pan, you are speaking to a navy man.

I would suspect your average migrant wouldn't be too au fait with loadings or the seaworthiness of their craft - not that they would have any choice in the matter even if they did. I think its a case of get the f*ck on board and don't complain, save the traffickers change their mind about taking you.

Don't be so hard on the poor b*stards.

airship
18th Oct 2013, 18:12
dead_pan wrote: Don't be so hard on the poor b*stards. Seconded :ok:

Also, I understand UK PM David Cameron has an initiative underway at the EU in Brussels currently, based on the UK's earlier campaign to persuade illegal immigrants to simply "give themselves up" (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-24575795). This would involve sending suitably-adapted text messages to all would-be, potentially illegal or asylum-seekers to those embarking (or close to embarkation) to their mobile phones. In addition to requiring the Syrian, Lebanese, Egyptian, Libyan, Tunisian and Moroccan governments to affix huge stickers to the sides of all vessels in their ports which might be used for transport (see picture below):

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/70358000/jpg/_70358466_hi019581045.jpg

That should do it. Once upon a time in the UK we had "Jim'll fix it for you". Today, it's David... :ouch:

BenThere
18th Oct 2013, 18:21
what does everyone think about the new proposal to relax immigration rules for those wealthy Chinese folk?

I'm all for it. If you can attract immigrants that bring capital, a likelihood of contributing to society by being productive and raising fine and similarly industrious families, you should take advantage of it, regardless of ethnicity.

What you shouldn't do is encourage welfare-seeking dependents bent on milking your society and government for the freebies it naively distributes. Any foole know that.

500N
18th Oct 2013, 18:37
Ref what BenThere said.

Aussie Gov't has been doing that for years. English, South Africans just two examples.

G-CPTN
18th Oct 2013, 19:02
The stories emerging today on the Beeb about the camps in France of would-be Syrian refugees hell-bent on reaching Britain are alarming.

BBC News - Calais's Syrian refugees desperate to cross Channel (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-24573575)

Lonewolf_50
18th Oct 2013, 19:26
dead_Pan

These "migrants" are attempting to illegally cross borders. They are attempting to circumvent the lawful emigre rules and protocols various nations have.
I would suspect your average migrant wouldn't be too au fait with loadings or the seaworthiness of their craft
Life's tough, and it's really tough when you are stupid.
They put themselves in the hands of the coyote, just as some of the desperate folks trying to cross our southern borders ILLEGALLY do. When you run with coyotes, don't be surprised if you get bitten.
- not that they would have any choice in the matter even if they did.
Yes they do. Don't try to illegally cross borders. They choose to do that.
I think its a case of get the f*ck on board and don't complain, save the traffickers change their mind about taking you.
You run with coyotes, you get bitten.
Don't be so hard on the poor b*stards.
As I said above: life's tough, and it's really tough when you are stupid. The sea is beautiful, and it is dangerous. They take a risk. When you take a risk, sometimes, it doesn't pay off. At sea, as in the air, the "doesn't pay off" is often fatal.

Krystal n chips
23rd Oct 2013, 06:49
" I'm all for it. If you can attract immigrants that bring capital, a likelihood of contributing to society by being productive and raising fine and similarly industrious families, you should take advantage of it, regardless of ethnicity"

Really ?.....and what has prompted this ever so slightly revised doctrine I wonder ?......just to clarify please, given your many and repetitive posts concerning Muslims, can we now assume people of this faith and ethnicity are now also acceptable to you ?

B Fraser
23rd Oct 2013, 10:48
If you can attract immigrants that bring capital, a likelihood of contributing to society by being productive and raising fine and similarly industrious families, you should take advantage of it, regardless of ethnicity.

You never see Johnny Chinaman signing on at the benefits office.

BenThere
23rd Oct 2013, 11:55
"Muslim" is not an ethnicity, K&C.

My problem with Islam has never had anything to do with ethnicity but with intolerance, violence, oppression of women, hatred of Jews, homophobia, and other socio-pathologies.

So to answer your question, I haven't revised my outlook at all in this regard..

500N
23rd Oct 2013, 12:44
"You never see Johnny Chinaman signing on at the benefits office."

Funny that !!!

I think Chinamen were the first group to come to Aus after the convicts and Englishmen, Irishmen and Scots, all came for the gold and worked the Gold fields.

Andu
23rd Oct 2013, 12:57
...and were looked upon with a fear and loathing (by Australians of European heritage) that makes anything 99.9% of similar people today express towards Muslims pale into insignificance.

The main fear was that the Chinese would work for "coolie wages", thus dragging the Australian working man down to a similar level. The birth of the Labor Party could easily be linked to this, (although it was the incredibly bitter shearers' strike that was the main factor). That same strike also gave us our national song.

Aboriginal Australians, on the other hand, at least those up on the Palmer River goldfields, thought the Chinese were pretty damned terrific. Why? Because, with their mostly vegetarian diet, they tasted far less salty than the Europeans.

500N
23rd Oct 2013, 13:07
"the Chinese were pretty damned terrific. Why? Because, with their mostly vegetarian diet, they tasted far less salty than the Europeans."

:D:D:D:D:D

And to think this was only a just over 100 years ago, probably 150 years.

Yet despite that, they still integrated - or at least didn't cause problems.

I think Japs were one of the next Pearling up in the Broome area.

Krystal n chips
23rd Oct 2013, 18:22
" "Muslim" is not an ethnicity, K&C.

As always, my eternal gratitude for informing me of this fact.

However, and I hope you don't think me as being pedantic here, there is just one little flaw in your statement, or rather contradiction.

I seem to recall you said something about "all ethnicities being welcome"....so far,, so reasonable, but then, sadly, you forgot to say anything about the faiths of these ethnic groups. ( hence me thoughtfully bringing it to your attention.....the two aspects may well be linked you understand....probably not I suppose ) and thus if you were to decide that whilst one ethnic immigrant was fine, unless he / she belonged to a faith you did not like, then, what's that word again ??.....ah yes....discrimination.

" My problem with Islam has never had anything to do with ethnicity but with intolerance, violence, oppression of women, hatred of Jews, homophobia, and other socio-pathologies.

Presumably in direct contrast to, say for example, your own liberal and egalitarian views ?

So to answer your question, I haven't revised my outlook at all in this regard.

I don't think your views really needed this clarification now did they.

BenThere
23rd Oct 2013, 18:26
Presumably in direct contrast to, say for example, your own liberal and egalitarian views ?


Exactly. Though somehow I think you still don't get it.

dead_pan
23rd Oct 2013, 19:35
I think he means that a few valuable contributors who can fit in culturally are welcome

Wot, you mean like those luvverly Arab princes, shady Russian oligarchs, dodgy Chinese businessmen etc etc? I think we're more than happy to let in all manner of undesirables as long as they have a fair-sized wedge. Who gives a stuff whether they integrate? Just bring us yer money.

Lonewolf_50
23rd Oct 2013, 21:10
Wot, you mean like those luvverly Arab princes, shady Russian oligarchs, dodgy Chinese businessmen etc etc? I think we're more than happy to let in all manner of undesirables as long as they have a fair-sized wedge. Who gives a stuff whether they integrate? Just bring us yer money.

No kidding. If you show up with a was of cash, it is less likely that you'll be a drain on society than if you show up with naught. You are already a contributor within a few weeks.

Mind you, some of the folks who show up with little to nothing get right to it and become productive members of the social weave.

Others, not so much.

Krystal n chips
24th Oct 2013, 05:03
" No kidding. If you show up with a was of cash, it is less likely that you'll be a drain on society than if you show up with naught. You are already a contributor within a few weeks"

Ah, the simplistic delusion that having money makes you a paragon of society......irrespective of how dubious or illegally obtained this wealth may be.

Of course, these immigrants always pay their full range of taxes to their chosen country....being such paragons and net contributors to the economy as a whole......there again, exclusion clauses may apply, notably those as perceived by said immigrants.

Ben, I am still confused...about your understanding of the words, liberal and egalitarian for example.

I seem to recall you suggested that isolated and closed communities in the middle of nowhere in the USA would be a splendid idea....is the term lunatic asylum still used in the US per chance ?.

May I recommend you purchase, or borrow, a copy of the O.E.D to save any further social embarrassment on your part.

BenThere
24th Oct 2013, 08:00
Ben, I am still confused

I can finally agree with you.

Capetonian
30th Jun 2014, 08:18
It just goes on .......... and until the Schengen agreement is rescinded or renegotiated, or until the countries on the periphery of the region are able to control external borders properly, it will continue.
What is the EU doing?
The Italian Navy has found about 30 bodies in a fishing boat with hundreds of migrants between Sicily and the North African coast............
The fishing boat with about 600 migrants is now being towed to the town of Pozzallo, southern Sicily.
The Italian authorities say more than 60,000 migrants have already landed in southern Italy this year, and that the record of 63,000 set in 2011 is likely to be broken.
Italy - who bears the brunt of migrants making the perilous crossing in the Mediterranean - has repeatedly appealed for help from the EU to tackle the problem.

Capetonian
6th Jul 2014, 21:25
BBC News - The gruesome truth behind an idyllic scene (http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-28159997)

More than 66,000 migrants and refugees have arrived on Italy's shores this year. But many don't survive the journey - and when the Italian navy went to help migrants crammed on to a boat near Sicily, they were shocked by what they found.

But down in her blue hull, the boat carried a dreadful cargo. A hold packed with bodies. A great tangle of corpses around the sides of the boat, crammed tight, shoulders pressed against shoulders.

As the vessel rose and fell in the swell, a navy boarding party went in to investigate. And the sailors discovered that just beneath the feet of that mass of passengers, there were many dead.
Dozens had suffocated in a hold below deck.
There were so many bodies in such a small space that out at sea they couldn't even be counted, never mind unloaded. They were left aboard, and the boat was towed into the Sicilian port of Pozzallo.



And it's in the interests of the smugglers to pack their unseaworthy boats as full as they can.
Each passenger pays at least $1,500 (£874) for the trip. So those who herded the 600 people aboard Ebrima's boat might easily have earned $1m (£583,000).


And so it goes on, the Schengen Agreement allowing countries like Italy to wick these unfortunates deep into Europe, where they then have no alternative but to survive by crime and prostitution.

500N
6th Jul 2014, 21:31
I read about that the other day. Bloody people smugglers.

One of the reasons the Australian Gov't tried to stop (or has stopped) the boats,
far too many drowning - I think we got up to 1500.

Capetonian
6th Jul 2014, 21:37
You're fortunate to live in a country that looks after itself and its citizens first, and doesn't worry unduly about what the rest of the world thinks. The EU is run by a bunch of PC wussies who are out of touch with the reality of these things as they affect real people.

500N
6th Jul 2014, 21:49
Capetonian

Don't worry, we have our fair share of PC wussies - the Greens, Asylum Seeker Advocates and a heap of lawyers !

Yes, we are lucky in that we can do what we want - like the Gov't did by excising islands from the Australian Immigration zone.

But yes, they have also decided to play real hard ball - to the extent of AS get taken to shit hole islands - Nauru, PNG - to be processed and told they won't make it to Australia.

We have now gone one better - we tow the boat back to where it came from and let the Indonesians handle them. If the boat is a shyte heap, they load them into a Life Raft ($700,000) and tow that back with enough fuel to get to shore.

And just last week they went one step further - they off loaded the AS onto Navy / Customs ships mid ocean, processed them on the boat and them sailed them back to Sri Lanka and handed them over to the Sri Lankan Navy mid ocean.

The UN (and others as above) has gone ballistic over it and I mean really ballistic.

Technically it might be illegal but to be honest, I don't think the Aust Gov't really give a crap what the UN thinks, it has ignored them since they came to power.

Capetonian
15th Sep 2014, 23:36
Hundreds feared dead after migrant boat heading for Italy capsizes - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/11097103/Hundreds-feared-dead-after-migrant-boat-heading-for-Italy-capsizes.html)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/11097496/Up-to-700-migrants-drown-in-Mediterranean-as-people-smugglers-accused-of-deliberately-capsizing-boat.html

Human traffickers kill 500 migrants by ramming their boat off the coast of Malta after they refused to switch on to one of their boats* | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2756506/Migrant-group-500-feared-dead-boat-rammed.html)

Find the traffickers, tear them limb from limb or feed them to the sharks, and confiscate their ill-gotten gains to be used towards improving conditions in the countries from where the escapees originate.
Fewer traffickers = fewer people trying to make these perilous and often fatal journeys.

Solid Rust Twotter
16th Sep 2014, 04:55
Against their yoomin rights, innit Mr CT.

Nervous SLF
16th Sep 2014, 05:24
Maltese philanthropists Regina and Christopher Catrambone, who are funding the operation, say they are the first civilians trying
to assist migrants at sea, Malta Today reports (http://www.maltatoday.com.mt/news/national/42672/migrant_assistance_mission_rescues_maltese_fisherman_son_aft er_boats_motor_fails#.U_xKnnZ5GXw). Moas was set up in response to the October 2013 Lampedusa shipwreck tragedy (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-24380247),
when around 360 African migrants died after their boat sank off the coast of the Italian island. Deaths are often reported in the
area,and just last weekend nearly 4,000 people were rescued (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28924101). The Phoenix I and its drone helicopters will watch for craft leaving
north Africa for Europe, and offer water, food, life-jackets and first aid if necessary.

Aware of criticism that they could be encouraging migrants, the Catrambones say they are simply heeding a call by Pope Francis
to save lives. "No one deserves to die at sea," they say.


BBC News - Malta: Private migrant rescue boat saves fisherman (http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-news-from-elsewhere-28936649)

phanhan
16th Sep 2014, 05:38
That is the problem that I'm interested.
I used to handle the travel account of a major charity doing work in Africa. First class travel, 5 star hotels, itineraries planned to suit their personal needs rather than to save money. A bunch of self-righteous sanctimonious hand-wringing pricks. Downright bloody unpleasant too some of them.

Fubaar
16th Sep 2014, 11:50
I had a similar experience years ago. Ex beauty queen working for a major charity, flying first class, staying in five star hotels, hire car at every outport, all expenses paid in addition to very generous salary - with money given in good faith by donors. I understand they consider it 'good practice' if 4 cents in every dollar given reaches the people the money is intended for.

Capetonian
16th Sep 2014, 12:42
I used to handle the travel account of a major charity doing work in Africa. First class travel, 5 star hotels, itineraries planned to suit their personal needs rather than to save money. A bunch of self-righteous sanctimonious hand-wringing pricks. Downright bloody unpleasant too some of them. I have had exactly the same experience, in fact this looks like one of my own posts!

radeng
16th Sep 2014, 15:36
Alex Salmond says that an independent Scotland needs immigrants. It would appear that he only has to ask.......

bcgallacher
16th Sep 2014, 21:38
Yep Scotland really needs more Somali goat herders. relaxing immigration policy would make a controlled border a certainty. Another of Wee Ecks brilliant ideas. Heaven help us if there is a 'Yes 'vote. I am fortunate in having Philippine residence and a house in the Manila suburbs that I can use as a bolt hole if things come unglued under the SNP managed economy.

Andu
16th Sep 2014, 23:47
Scotland would need more immigrants? From afar, I thought one of the main reasons the SNP wanted independence was to stop the unbridled immigration that's damn near ruined England.

OFSO
17th Sep 2014, 09:30
the unbridled immigration

It would have been interesting to see a few border agency people, police, immigration officers, and perhaps the Mayor of Calais interviewed on their feelings at the death of 700 (latest news) immigrants before reaching the coast of Italy. I'm sure they would have all managed to look suitably grief-stricken.

Incidently Shengen agreement or not, French police are peering in every car entering France from Spain: not at the border itself, you understand, because that's against the EU Rules, but about ten metres up the road, inside France.

OFSO
17th Sep 2014, 17:15
I have just had lunch with two German friends from Stuttgart. They told me that currently 800 immigrants are arriving PER DAY in Stuttgart by road, rail or air. Of these immigrants 200 are illegal and sleeping in railway and bus stations. The others claim asylum. Many of the immigrants are farmed out to small towns and village and the mayors and town councils told they MUST find accommodation, food etc for them.

My friends are pensioned ex-school teachers, politically middle-of-the-road, what one could call reasonable and fair people, but they say: this can't go on.

Capetonian
17th Sep 2014, 17:28
It's about time that someone took a stand against the idiocy of the open borders agreement. If it takes the French to be the first to do so, good for them. Their attitude has always been France First, and I agree with that stance and would like to see the same ethos spread across Europe.

The problems of the third world have to be dealt with at source. Shipping them abroad is like squeezing a spot, it just spreads the poison.