Learjet 60 performance

[qUadform]

Hello:

I am hoping that somebody can point me in the right direction.

I am trying to research the performance capabilities of the Lear 60. I have heard that the airplane can be troublesome for stopping due to the fact that the same brakes that are used on the Lear 35 are used on the Lear 60 (which a few thousand pounds heavier.)

I am trying to figure out if I can base the aircraft at an airport that is at 800 ft MSL. Runway 07 is TORA 1970 meters, TODA 2030 meters, ASDA 1970 meters, LDA 1550 meters. Runway 25 is TORA 1550 meters, TODA 1970 meters, ASDA 1970 meters, LDA 1550 meters.

There is the possibility that the jet will be used for commercial ops also, so I need to calculate the EU OPS requirements of stopping the aircraft within 60 percent of the dry landing distance available AND 115 percent of the factored landing distance for a wet runway.

I have researched several websites of people selling aircraft, but their performance data is inadequate to say the least. They simply tell me things like the airplane is fast or it has a range of xxx nautical miles. This does not help the serious aircraft buyer. Is there anybody out there or any service which can honestly help with gathering data for buying a jet? If not, where can I get a copy of the Lear 60 AFM, so I can compute the performance data?

I am not totally sold on getting a Lear60 for a few reasons: brakes seem inadequate for size of jet, typical Learjet lack of luggage space (similar to Audi cars..haha), a history of malfunctioning APUs.

Any recommendations on a comparable jet? It is important that I find something that can operate from the airfield dimensions I mentioned earlier.

I understand that I have asked a lot! So, if you can simply put me in touch with a service....or where I can obtain AFMs....it would be very helpful!

Thank you.

[flyboyike]

I suppose the best course of action might be to get a hold of a current Lear 60 operator.

[His dudeness]

Any recommendations on a comparable jet? It is important that I find something that can operate from the airfield dimensions I mentioned earlier.


What should it do ? You can base a lot of airplanes on that airfield...

What second segment perf do you require ?

What range out of the airfield do you need ?

How many pax ?

How much baggage space do you need ?

A standup cabin ?

How much are you prepared to spent ?

Used / new ? If used, how old ? Etcetc.

If it just boils down to runway perf, with a cabin that is comparable or maybe a little better, the Citation Sovereign is unbeatable

s there anybody out there or any service which can honestly help with gathering data for buying a jet?

APG - Aircraft Performance Group (http://cloud.apg.aero/)

or:

https://www.conklindd.com/Default.aspx


If you want to buy new, ask Bombardier...

[captainmorgan888]

The most limiting will be your landing distance, which is the worst of all midsize jets, if not all jets.

According to B&CA 3,050ft which is 1550m for OPS1, dry at SL.

Citation Sovereign or Hawker comes into my mind...

[Trim Stab]

With runway configuration like that you won't be limited by TORA/TODA/ASDA. So just take the LDA and work backwards from that to see a range of aircraft that would work for you.

The Lear's tend to be play for sales on the fact that they are faster than some of the competition - but in the real world is it really so important to get to your destination potentially just a few minutes earlier on a typical European journey - especially as the most important parameter that usually determines flight time is whether Spanish/French/Italian controllers are working to rule or not? I would trade speed for cabin space, reliability, and resale value any day.

As Dudeness said, a Sovereign might be a better bet.

[Energetic Pilot]

Sovereign, and if you don´t need the space/seats take a XLS! :ok:
The ideal businesstool for EU trips.

[qUadform]

Thanks for the responses. I truly appreciate what each person had to say.

If I were to purchase an aircraft in N. America, is there a checklist where I can make one hundred percent certain that the aircraft is compliant for commercial ops within the EU, should I decide to charter out the aircraft when not being used for personal use. For example: 8.33 radios...check, cockpit voice recorder...check, etc.

Thank you!

[Teldorserious]

You need a corporate aviation consultant that can help you navigate this. Chances are you don't need a L60 but something else. Someone with the requisite knowledge can look at what you want to do and start narrowing down the right aicraft for your needs. PM me if you are serious.

[CL300]

you are far from being qualified to do this , and as the above reply.. Get a real pro to do it. We do not charge that much.. LoL

[His dudeness]

Be aware to use a QUALIFIED consultant. Make sure the contract makes em responsible for what he does for you (good luck with that one), make sure its a person or company that is able to meet his responsibility.

should I decide to charter out the aircraft when not being used for personal use.

There are many traps in what you want to do. If you think you are done by fulfilling the requirements right now, then you might be waken up rudely one day. Eurocontrol are constantly coming up with new requirements. Those are smaller things (such as a new software in TCAS, mind you that is 25.000USD for our airplane, 2007 built A/C) and some are big issues, such as CPDLC. (for which we have an exemption for the time being, but the manufacturer isn´t able to tell us what will happen, if they are able to implement it or not)

The newer the airplane and especially the avionics are, the easier (thus usually less expensive) one can handle these things. Bear in mind that a 2013 aircraft could be equipped with an avionics suite way older in design.

Oversight of your airplane in a operation might be a problem, I have seen more than one owner being deceived by dubious operators.

If you really want to charter out, speak to the potential operator first. Its usally way easier (aka cheaper) to integrate a type that already is in the fleet than to add a new one. A good operator canat least tell what question to put forward to a consultant.

A major, if not biggest part of the cost, is maintenance. There are huge differences in pricing even for the same types, let alone between different types. MSG-3 maintenance plans tend to be more flexible an dcheaper than the old ones. I have just made a comparison between two mx providers and our current one saves us roughly 15% annually compared to the other who said his prices would be highly competetive. Think how much one would need to charter out to get 10.000€/year back if one would make a profit of 200€/hrs -> thats 50 hours just for that and these 50 hrs do require maintenance as well...

I could go on and on, but it boils down to:

know what you want/need to do FIRST, then you will be able get the right airplane for the lowest possible cost. Be as honest to yourself in this process as possible. IF you need to make money by chartering out, forget it. Way to many idle airframes around these days.
Put something on top of every estimate you ever get, 10-20%, and you wont be surprised by sudden pricechanges.

I´m not a consultant, btw.

[Brian Abraham]

qUadform, a little advice, under no circumstance take aviation advice from Teldorserious, other than his recommendation to consult a pro.

[Teldorserious]

Brian, given how Australia was colonized, I'd be curious to know just what felonious ancestry lurks in your DNA.

[Brian Abraham]

Teldorserious, given that you are one of the reasons the moderators found it necessary to print in red at the bottom of the page a warning regarding sciolists, we may wonder quite rightly at the content of your own DNA. For a person to brag that he turned down a job with Alaska Airlines, flies helicopters, flies a Citation and a Gulf stream, runs a two aircraft Citation outfit, and has been caught out on all the figments of his imagination, you have no place to hide. Some call it the Walter Mitty syndrome, I just see it as someone with an ego issue.

The up shot, for the OP, is that you have absolutely no qualifications to enable you to be providing advice to ANYONE regarding anything to do with aviation.

[Teldorserious]

Brian that is very interesting. You see not only are you a troll, but a liar. Back when I outed you as a fraud, everyone here was pointed to my website detailing my qualifications, along with pictures. So everyone is very aware that I am the real deal.

Why the mods put up with your incessent trolling is beyond me. I would guess you actually provide financial support for this website, thus JT feels some need to put up with you?

[galaxy flyer]

If your quals are so high, how come they are not posted and neither is your website?

GF

[CL300]

He is so well known that he does not need to publish anything.. LOL

[His dudeness]

For a credibilaty check of the hot air generator have look here:

http://www.pprune.org/biz-jets-ag-flying-ga-etc/522192-piaggio-avanti-3.html#post8084939

and here:

http://www.pprune.org/biz-jets-ag-flying-ga-etc/522192-piaggio-avanti-3.html#post8085181

[Teldorserious]

It's round and round here with a bunch of 12 year olds. I honestly doubt there are more then 5 people on this forum that can have a normal, educated, aviation discussion. Off to a new place. JT - This place is garbage. Cancel my account, I am out.

[733driver]

Don't let the door hit ya on the way out

[Brian Abraham]

He is already posting under at least two other identities, so we'll see a continuation of the wet dreams.

[Booglebox]

That was entertaining, but let's get back on-topic.
I hear the brakes on the 60XR are quite a lot better than the base 60. True?

[highfinn]

The classic Brakes from the Lear 60 came from the Learjet 55. They are identical. There is a SB that upgrades the "classic" 2-rotating disc Brakes to 3-rotating discs. This SB also adds new Actuators to the MLG. The 60XR has the 3-rotating disc Brakes installed from the factory. I cannot make a statement on the operation, since I am no pilot.

[Booglebox]

Thanks Highfinn, useful stuff. :cool:
So, does this SB reduce the certified landing distances etc. to take into account the improvement in braking performance? :confused:

[Doodlebug]

Almost had a brain-failure trying to remember why, but all I can come up with is that whilst very effective in real life, that SB does not permit you to apply those very much improved figures under commercial ops. Somebody will be along in a minute to explain why, no doubt...

[CL300]

implemented, not certified...yet...

[Captain Kaboom]

Oh, in real life the updated brakes help you a lot more but it is not certified.

Just like the LJ60 is supposed to have had autoland capabilities (autopilot software) but certification was too expensive.

So it gives you a real life safety factor but you can not use this for legal calculations.

CK