Ryanair to pay €10 million in French labour law case

[fireflybob]

Ryanair to pay €10 million in French labour law case (http://www.france24.com/en/20131002-ryanair-pay-%E2%82%AC10-million-fines-french-labour-law-marignane)

A French court has ordered low-cost carrier Ryanair to pay €10 million in damages plus fines for breaching French labour laws at its operation in Marignane, near Marseille. The airline has said it plans to appeal.

[sitigeltfel]

The tribunal has fined the company €200,000 for breaching French employment laws and awarded damages of €8,000,000 plus interest, to be paid to former crews, unions and social security organisations.

La Provence (in French) (http://www.laprovence.com/article/actualites/2558403/ryanair-condamne-a-payer-plus-de-8-millions-deuros-de-dommages-et-interets.html)

The original threat to seize the four aircraft formerly based at Marignane will not be carried out.

The appeal lawyers are probably at work right now!

[superq7]

Wow I think the word schadenfreude is apt.

[captplaystation]

This may put some fire in the bellies of those other aggrieved countries who have shillyshallied around, without actually doing something beyond timid whining.

Could be the beginning of the end of this particular "employment model" if a few other countries grew a pair.

[Capetonian]

If they carry this through, and my guess is that they won't, this would put the French a notch or two higher on my ratings, admittedly starting from a fairly low base.

Schadenfreude ..... ich ...... JAWOHL!

[dazdaz1]

Only a matter of months before MOL falls on his sword.

[Sober Lark]

I'm amused to see how French labour law, unions etc are looking after Air France group. They lost €897,000,000 last year and €163,000,000 in second quarter this year and it looks like the group will need to jettison 2,600 employees. Comical they should feel the need to make an example of Ryanair.

[DirectCF]

@SoberLark : your statement is false, considering Air France (via Cityjet, which they entirely own) has also been found guilty for the exact same reasons in April last year.

[racedo]

Pretty much no chance of it occuring after appeal to EU.

Issue of course will be that lots of countries would only be to happy to start targeting people who spend limited time in countries and live elsewhere, more than a few French companies were playing by these rules especially at senior level.

France looking to support its own industries is pretty standard even when its costing them hundreds of millions a la Air France.

[racedo]

@SoberLark : your statement is false, considering Air France (via Cityjet, which they entirely own) has also been found guilty for the exact same reasons in April last year

So are you saying Air France didn't lose a Billion Euros in last 15 months ?

[HundredPercentPlease]

No, Racedo, the Ryanair apologist said "I'm amused to see how French labour law, unions etc are looking after Air France group" which fell foul to the lovely comeback above.

[FLEXPWR]

The French may be right according to their national law, but it is only driving ANY company (not just aviation) to set up their base/headquarters/whatever anywhere but France.
France is first in one thing at least: first producer of taxes in the world. And last in promoting growth and entrepreneurship (if such a word exists).

Look at the state of French aviation. Apart from a few charter companies working on a seasonal basis, there is no competition for companies setup and based in France (i.e. "French" companies): Airliner, Britair, Regional, Transavia, and, with some differences Cityjet, are all part of the AF group. With some exceptions, none of these actually choose how/when to expand, they just fly the AF flights and can never develop their activities on their own.

You have to understand, more than the law, the French system (and AF with their super-powerfull union system) cannot stand competition. It is about eating the cake on your own and hoping no crumbs will ever be left for anyone behind.

It is a monopoly in disguise, make no mistake, the laws and regulations in this matter are influenced by union(s) who cannot imagine anyone from outside eating their cake. It is not about equality as the French heritage promotes (Egalite, Faternite, etc), it is about the French being angry that someone else succeeds where they have failed, and they (the French CAA backed by French unions), will do anything possible to ensure if they can't succeed, no one else should on their own territory.

Can you imagine that an ATPL of French nationality but having obtained their license in a JAA member state outside France needs a validation to fly in France on French AOC or registered aircraft? That you need to pay more than 100 euros to obtain a piece of paper to fly on French registered aircraft? How mad is this?

As for the case of Cityjet which has been mentioned, they were found to have the same operating practices than Ryanair or Easyjet MORE THAN 6 YEARS AGO! Back then, the French Police was kicking doors in EZ offices to investigate "illegal work in France", but Cityjet was then left unbothered. The case for EZ and Ryanair was quickly dealt with while Cityjet was left alone, of course, because they belong to AF.

Note what a coincidence, that AF has been trying to get rid of Cityjet for the last year or so (with no serious buyers it seems), and Cityjet now gets some legal inquiry... mmmhh, what a good timing. :hmm:

Anyway, the French "exception" is here to stay, same with speaking French on the radio in major airports like CDG... unions are too strong to change mentalities. But that is another subject.

Now I am ready to be shot down in flames by the French crowd, but it feels good I can speak my mind! :ouch:

[SpGo]

FLEXPWR,
Last year an EU law came into force which is an exact copy of the former French national law.
The lawsuit against easyJet is still ongoing, in fact Air France was the first one to be convicted.

[Kelly Hopper]

FLEXPWR. Where is the pprune "like" button?

[Yankee Whisky]

Right on ! The question now becomes; when will France come to the realisation they can no longer compete and the system resorts to total socialism with all that entails, such as the question ;" who will pay for this ? " The possible friction French/English seems to arise again as I understand French business likes the London, England business climate better and
is moving there ? Similar happenings involving French government are showing up elsewhere.:bored:

[RAT 5]

The question now becomes; when will

all other affected countries follow suit?

[Facelookbovvered]

There is a well researched and written article on the Ryanair business model by an outfit called Air Scoop all 47 pages of it.

I thought the FR press release on their website was rather more reasoned than the usual teddy's out of the pram we all know and love.

The problem with appealing and i guess they have to, is that it gives more oxygen to the issue, it seems that a bit like the case in Norway and others pending that working for an Irish company, but based in another country you have to play by that countries rules, strange that....I guess if you work for an Irish company you can drive on the wrong side of the road and get away with it because your driving an Irish car.

The French are of course very protective of anything French and their labour practices are a joke, i found the €200.000 fine for breeching labours laws plus costs and interest bringing a total of €8m very Ryanair-ish :D

[Pablo_Diablo]

Could also be come to France but you need to follow the book also which is in the end of the day is not that unreasonable. Took a long time for the case against them when Easy got into trouble years ago. Surely no coincidence also there is only one "base" in France because they knew this was going to happen eventually and they can´t use local regs in one country without doing the same in other countries.

The Irish territory card is still warm and in play but this could also open up the field for similar action in other countries. Is the card valid elsewhere?

[mutt]

I guess that Ryanair will now introduce a "French legal fee surcharge" for all passengers!

[Vobiscum]

Based on my understanding of the news article in La Provence helpfully linked above in sitigeltfel's post, the 2 main points seem to be:

Ryanair was fined 200,000 Euros for breaching French employment laws (the maximum fine for the offences was only 225,000 Euros) so the Court must have regarded those breaches as so serious that they merited a penalty fine close to the top end of the scale. Although a fine of 200,000 Euros is mere pocket change from an organisation the size of Ryanair, the message is very significant.

Ryanair was also ordered to pay damages and interest totalling close to 9 million Euros, the bulk of which represented the obligatory social security charges including pension contributions that seem not to have been paid by the employer on salaries of up to 127 staff working in France during a period since 2007.

Perhaps someone can explain how Irish contracts for its staff in Marseilles might provide its management with reasonable grounds to believe that this somehow made Ryanair exempt from paying French social security charges? Apparently an argument along these lines was run (unsuccessfully) as a defence.

[RAT 5]

.......obligatory social security charges including pension contributions that seem not to have been paid by the employer on salaries of up to 127 staff working in France during a period since 2007.

What of the so-called contractors? If we understand correctly most of the pilots & cabin crew at RYR are not employees. How does this result effect them? If they too are deemed to be owed pensions etc. what of the same in other countries?

[captplaystation]

Vobiscum

Up until quite recently this WAS allowed under European law for aircrew working in one state but employed by a carrier in another, however. . . the French have not accepted this argument for a long time, even if it was strictly legal in Europe.

The new laws which came into effect around the beginning of this year/end of last year (depending on the country in question) state that social charges must be paid in the country of "base". It is perhaps the harmonisation of this throughout Europe that has provided the final impetus for the conclusion/success of this claim. . . and may well do so in Itay/Norway/Belgium in the future.

This may well be the 1st nail in the coffin for a legal loophole (now closed) that has saved Ryanair a very tidy sum indeed this last 10+ years.


RAT 5 , indeed . . the lid of Pandoras box is merely ajar, wait till it is finally prised off.

[CelticRambler]

It is worth remembering that the socio-political actors in Marseille opposed the state/union action and supported Ryanair in this matter. Obviously they have a different agenda to the government, but it is also worth remembering that the unions in France represent a massive 8% of the total workforce ... and that is an average that includes a 15% participation amongst state/semi-state workers.

Right now, the unions (who do not represent 92% of France's workforce) are rejoicing at having forced the closure of some major retailers who had the affrontery to stay open until 10pm on weekdays and employ aspiring greedy capitalists (or what we outsiders call 'students') to do their law-breaking work for them. Ditto for daring to perturb the peace and quiet of the Lord's Day - the same Lord who must not be allowed show His face in any school or any other institution of the Sacred Secular République.

France today is riven by arguments over, and allegations of, travail dissimulé and concurrence déloyale and it may be that losing a case of this magnitude is the kind of kick up backside the country needs to join the 21st Century.

Looking at it from a different perspective, Ireland and France had a "face off" over corporation tax during the Sarkozy years and France blinked first. Ryanair are now saying publicly that, if they lose, they'll reclaim all taxes and social charges already paid to the Irish state for the workers concerned. So they'll have Joan Burton, Michael Noonan and Leo Varadkar taking a very (pro?)active interest in the outcome, while their counterparts in France are struggling to deal with their own voters.

[wind check]

The french URSSAF, CRPN together with the union SNPL are catching all the companies who've broken the local law. Some more companies are currently in the pipeline and will have to pay really big fines...

[racedo]

The french URSSAF, CRPN together with the union SNPL are catching all the companies who've broken the local law. Some more companies are currently in the pipeline and will have to pay really big fines...

PAY ?

Not necessarily as just because France decides it will impose a local law doesn't mean it will apply. EU law may say something completely different and I wait until many other companies are fined. Then lots more Govts will decide that France is not deciding EU policy.

[racedo]

Racedo, the EU law (which is a copy paste of the French law) IS IN FORCE since 26-06-2012.

How a court interprets a law is what counts not what is written.

[wiggy]

as just because France decides it will impose a local law doesn't mean it will apply. EU law may say something completely different

racedo, FWIW EU law is now quite clear, as captplaystation has rightly pointed out:

The new laws which came into effect around the beginning of this year/end of last year (depending on the country in question) state that social charges must be paid in the country of "base".

For once the French courts seem to be quite happy to toe the EU line (call me a cynic but I suspect that is probably because in this case it suits the French state to do so)

[dudubrdx]

Well they don't really walk up to the plane with tea and biscuits and ask the pilots where they are paying their social taxes.
They ( the french police) come up to the plane, ask for their work contracts, and then arrest the pilots and CA. This is how it happened in Marseille for instance

[dudubrdx]

It is a monopoly in disguise, make no mistake, the laws and regulations in this matter are influenced by union(s) who cannot imagine anyone from outside eating their cake. It is not about equality as the French heritage promotes (Egalite, Faternite, etc), it is about the French being angry that someone else succeeds where they have failed, and they (the French CAA backed by French unions), will do anything possible to ensure if they can't succeed, no one else should on their own territory.

Quite untrue if you look at how many planes EZY and RYR have based in France. EZY pilots have had french contracts now for quite some time and seem to be very happy with it. Very good pay, similar to BA LH and AF/KLM.
The french are not angry to see anyone else succeed , but they do expect it to be fair competition.

Anyway, the French "exception" is here to stay, same with speaking French on the radio in major airports like CDG... unions are too strong to change mentalities. But that is another subject.

Speaking french in CDG, unions??? Were you intoxicated while typing this?
I'm sure you remember french is an ICAO official language. Italian and dutch are not, and are frequently used in FCO and AMS...

[Greenlights]

The french exception ?
Oh come on... look at your country...wanting to follow EU laws, while you still use sterling money and drive on the left :D
French is an official language under ICAO law.
This job has become a joke since FR and all LCC paying peanuts to get monkeys on flight deck. Check Vueling paying 700euros, that's a job for clowns now who are just taxi drivers.
:ugh:
The EU has never been clear about working contracts, that is why MOL plays with it. In France, we are clear about that.

[stator vane]

the type that don't stall airplanes?

[racedo]

The french are not angry to see anyone else succeed , but they do expect it to be fair competition.

Total BS

How again will AF survive given its Billion Euro loss..............French state will provide a hidden subsidy......... yet again.

How come when slots become available at CDG and Orly that the overwhelming majority always get allocated to AF irrespective of who else is seeking them and AFs special treatment never gets challenged.

France's view of a level playing field is going into a fight where the other persons hands are tied behind its back and they are blindfolded.

[racedo]

This job has become a joke since FR and all LCC paying peanuts to get monkeys on flight deck. Check Vueling paying 700euros, that's a job for clowns now who are just taxi drivers.

So the professional pilots who do the job but NOT for Air France are just monkeys ?

Interesting but then again that probably speaks more about your character.

[Capetonian]

France's view of a level playing field is going into a fight where the other persons hands are tied behind its back and they are blindfolded.

.......... and he's on crutches just to be sure there's no risk!

[wind check]

Not necessarily as just because France decides it will impose a local law doesn't mean it will apply. EU law may say something completely different and I wait until many other companies are fined. Then lots more Govts will decide that France is not deciding EU policy.


Ahahahahahahahahaha AhAhahahahahahah
Hmmmm...you'd better inform yourself instead of telling loads of bull****.

If Ryanair doesnt want tonpay the bill they'll get their aircraft grounded by the french authority.


More companies are in the pipeline, the've been braking the law and will soon be faced to the french justice. It'll cost 'em a lot of money!!!

[dudubrdx]

Total BS

How again will AF survive given its Billion Euro loss..............French state will provide a hidden subsidy......... yet again.

How can we even have a nice discussion given the lack of knowledge you've just showned?

I really am WORRIED to see such negativity from the english after someone finally decided to fine Ryanair. You would have thought this was good news....:ugh::ugh::ugh:

Edit: and how exactly did this go back to an AF bashing subject??

[BerksFlyer]

Always baffles me the support shown to Ryanair on this forum. They have been profiting from dubious employment practices for such a long time, destroying conditions for pilots across the EU, yet countless posters on this forum show pathetic prejudices instead of agreeing with their punishment for breaking of the law. Bemusing.

[2Planks]

I know change was afoot - but have NetJets actually changed their income tax in Portugal and UK National Insurance scheme of manoeuvre for folks scattered round Europe.

[jimjim1]

@dudubrdx
negativity from the english

Many of us appear to have been brainwashed into believing that as long as the unemployment rate is rising and ordinary working people are getting poorer year on year, while business owners, shareholders and executives get richer while engaging in massive tax avoidance - our future will be secure.

Zero hours contracts and all that stuff is lauded as being in our interest.

We appear to hate it when workers get a decent deal. All benefits must go to senior executives and shareholders.

Insecurity, pain and misery for nearly everybody is our future.

Vive la France.

PS - got any spare guillotines we can borrow? We are going to need them one day soon.

[dudubrdx]

Oh dear... Only a matter of hours before someone drops in a WWII comment:(

[Sober Lark]

In France deep rooted national pride and favouritism can override the economics. You need good relationships in such an especially challenging market. In passing and taking the long view I sometimes wonder if perhaps Ryanair should have supported Airbus rather than Boeing.

[racedo]

How can we even have a nice discussion given the lack of knowledge you've just showned?

I really am WORRIED to see such negativity from the english after someone finally decided to fine Ryanair. You would have thought this was good news....:ugh::ugh::ugh:

Edit: and how exactly did this go back to an AF bashing subject??

So you really only on this thread to show glee for a court making a decision to fine Ryanair ?

I am happily highlighting the hypocrisy of French state advocating a level playing field when this doesn't exist in France for other Europeans be it
Skiing
British ski hosts banned in France - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/snowandski/skiing-news/9882344/British-ski-hosts-banned-in-France.html)
Riding School
In the saddle - Living in France - Complete France (http://www.completefrance.com/living-in-france/in_the_saddle_1_1228026)
Mercedes
Court orders France to end ban on Mercedes - The Local (http://www.thelocal.fr/20130827/court-orders-france-to-end-ban-on-mercedes-cars)
Beauty Pagents
French Senate votes to ban child beauty pageants | Fox News (http://www.foxnews.com/world/2013/09/18/french-senate-votes-to-ban-child-beauty-pageants-as-part-women-rights-law/)
Working at night
French Court Says Apple Store Staff Can't Work Late Nights (http://www.tomshardware.com/news/France-Apple-Store-Nights-Late-Shifts-Banned,21504.html)

[Facelookbovvered]

I'm inclined to agree with Racedo I'm really not sure that FR have done anything illegal here, whilst the whole employment set up for pilots (service providers) is bizarre and there is little doubt it has saved FR millions in social taxes and i suspect this ruling will be over turned on appeal. It may look like aggressive tax avoidance to some, but just like Starbucks & Amazon, very large multi national companies can pick and choose where to base their assets and where to pay their taxes.

Ultimately the authorities will have to go after the little fella's ie the groups of pilots set up as ltd companies, drawing a small salary and paying the resultant profit out in dividends, which attract a lower rate of tax and I believe are not liable for national or social insurances payments on such dividends.

They will investigate to see if these companies are genuine trading companies with proper accounts, board meeting and so on, or are just "shell" companies set up with the primary aim of reducing or avoiding tax and i think FR are far more vulnerable on that front, but of course they have Brookfield for a fire wall first.

Not a chance of them impounding Ryanair aircraft either

[Phil Space]

If the low cost carriers pull out they'll be complaining about the lack of business.
I'm sure Ryanair are not stuck for European destinations:=

[captplaystation]

Until last year, what Ryanair was doing was legal in Europe (even though the French law would beg to differ with this )

Since June last year their "non base" in Marseille has given the French the golden opportunity to nail them utilising a law that has now been adopted in Europe. The crux of the matter is whether French or European law will hold sway, as I am guessing the level of fines/back-payments dates back to pre Jun12.

Interesting linkie here
The airline base concept: European LCCs love to base aircraft and crew abroad, unlike others | CAPA - Centre for Aviation (http://centreforaviation.com/analysis/the-airline-base-concept-european-lccs-love-to-base-aircraft-and-crew-abroad-unlike-others-131872)

[Pablo_Diablo]

Normally losing a court case means something was done that is considered wrong. But this is about Ryanair so it would be much less exiting without the complete opposite views.

The dispute centres on the airline's practice of hiring workers in Ireland (http://www.reuters.com/places/ireland) and posting them to France, where the court said it had failed to pay high social fees and other labour charges. The carrier was also found guilty of impeding the activities of trade union and works councils.-Reuters

[Fogie]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=UNUJ_td7eJc#t=19

[dannyalliga]

This and all upcoming court cases against Ryanair are based on the Convention of Rome which is very clearly written.
I know it's a bit of a boring read but it will make everything clear after you have understood its content so maybe we can talk about what is legal and what is not without lowering ourselves into a nationalistic debate which has nothing to do with EU treaties and conventions.
Have fun:
Convention on the law applicable to contractual obligations (Rome Convention) (http://europa.eu/legislation_summaries/justice_freedom_security/judicial_cooperation_in_civil_matters/l33109_en.htm)

[CL300]

As usual , when UK meets France, there is a lot of emotions floating around.

At last, there is grounds on the european law since 2006, which does apply to all businesses, not only aviation related ones ( the most restrictive being the truck drivers one)
It is very simple : either the foreign company has an operating place in the country or not. For this case, MRS was a base, people ( crews) were having their rest at this base, they had lockers under their names, etc.. therefore, according to the law, the company should have complied with the obligations of this country, no more, no less. This was including to pay social security and so on in this said country. Since they failed and got caught they have a fine for having been not compliant.
Since January 2012, the european law is in effect, and after a transition period of 10 years, EVERY foreign company that has an establishment in France ( or any other foreign european state) have to comply with the same rule. A small change here, if you have a contract, and if this contract is amended for whatever reason during the transition period, you ( company + employee )start right away to pay these taxes.
Precision here also ; taxes have a different meaning depending the countries.
In France for exemple, you are not taxed at source, meaning that after the deduction from gross to net, the employee still have to pay the income tax.
Netjets case is somewhat different, but in its essence of EU-OPS now EASA, it is quite clear that the company has to nominate a base for every crew where the said crew will start his/her duty from. In the unique Netjets scheme of "gateways", this is where the crew leaves ( or where he/she has its center of interests read family). Proactivity made the rest and the call was made.
When the crew has no life, when IT ( there is no more individuals there, just a necessary burden) can be shuffled around europe every 4/6 months or so, it is more complicated to get a fault on the company, but at the end of the day it is the same law; and in this case it is found under all the new double taxation treaties, the taxes shall be paid where the passport of the individual is issued.
Now the talks can go to an endless path, but this is the law, like the yellow vest in UK....or CAP 731 ( not compliant with ICAO), or else.
EZ did its homework and is now number one airline out of Nice airport...

Enjoy your flights, because this is the only thing that you will have left at the end of the day; in an airline, airbone crews salaries are accounting for a very small percentage of the fare cost; do not shoot the messenger...

[captplaystation]

CL300

the taxes shall be paid where the passport of the individual is issued

? ? Could you expand on this , are you referring perhaps to social charges I guess, as income tax is usually due to where you call "home" I.E where your wife/kids/dog/cat reside, where your mail is sent to etc .

If you had no clearly defined base, I am guessing (like Net Jets ? ) the authorities would default to where aforesaid "home" was located rather than passport country (I for instance have lived outside of my country of nationality for 21 years, so would certainly not expect to pay there regardless of how mobile my "Base" was.)

[CL300]

on double taxation treaties, where everything else does not apply ( no employer, no center of life, no family, etc,) the last resort for taxation is not the nationality, it is the passport that the individual hold.

Social charges are due where your employment takes place ( except for short terms, where it is due at the headquarter's place)

So, let's say you have a german citizenship, employed by a portuguese company, but leaving in France with your family, and taking your rest there.
The said company will have to pay the social contributions in France, while retaining the right to have your income taxes withheld in Portugal. The double taxation treaty kicks in, and the if the taxes paid in Portugal are representative (read 2/3) of what would have been paid in France, no income tax is due in France, and your benefits ( retirement, loss of employment, medical coverage, etc.) are paid and taken where you live. ( which make sense) Nethertheless a tax return form has to be filled in, and will come back with a figure showing zero. If the state decides not to tax you in Portugal, you will have to pay full taxes in France.

Now you are the same german national, paid offshore, to an offshore account, with no family, leaving from hotels to hotels all around the world, not spending more than 25% of your time at any place on earth, employed with the typical contract found now everywhere (BVI, etc.) This payment is gross/net, whatever. You are liable for your income taxes somewhere, and this is Germany.

Do not quote me wrong, this is the law, it is very unlikely that someone from the tax office will catch you if you do not pay your taxes in Germany. But this is the bottom line, where everything starts from.

[Greenlights]

Sober lark
In France deep rooted national pride and favouritism can override the economics.

and what do you know about french economy ?
maybe you should know that our GDP is higher than UK ? and FAR higher than ireland ? (47th !! lol) :ugh:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)

so, before giving any lesson to another country, you should verify your informations and facts.
We do have laws here, and europeans states have still the right to govern on their own soil.
Do you want, we enforce you to drive on the right and spend Euros instead sterling ? i guess, no.

FR, is the cancer of our profession. If you want to be a slave and want the working condtiions always being cut, that's your problem. But don't be surprise that a captain LCC, will be paid 2500euros per month in the near futur.
At least we fight for a good reason. We do not offer our butt :=.

We work for a living, and not living for work.

[CelticRambler]

and what do you know about french economy ?
maybe you should know that our GDP is higher than UK ? and FAR higher than ireland ? (47th !! lol) ... so, before giving any lesson to another country, you should verify your informations and facts.

Oui mais ... using those same statistics you'll see that Ireland's GDP per capita is 15% higher than France ... and Ireland exports more cheese (by gross weigh) than France. :}

The French economy is suffocating under a cross-party policy of protectionism and a suicidal attempt to maintain a status quo that has been obsolete for many decades. Even the latest "Made in France" campaign has been shown (by a Paris-based think tank) to be bad for the average French household budget because it does not create jobs.

Today's decision to give Air France/CityJet a gentle slap on the wrist for the same offence that Ryanair has been accused of just reinforces the belief that there's one rule for the natives, another for the outside world.

[captplaystation]

CelticRambler, can you elucidate/expand on that (although I am fairly sure Ryanairs lawyers won't have missed it ) because, if true, they have probably/possibly secured a massively reduced punishment via an appeal. ****ty-Jet have a lot more "history" in this respect than Ryanair,
but " turn the other way " worked just fine for them.

[Sober Lark]

Greenlights, if only the rest of the world would slow down France would be fine. Enjoy the rest.

[sarah737]

Air france has been convicted as well, because their sub-contractor, Cityjet, did not comply with the French law.

Air France condamnée pour travail dissimulé...comme Ryanair (http://www.latribune.fr/entreprises-finance/services/transport-logistique/20131008trib000789455/air-france-condamnee-pour-travail-dissimulecomme-ryanair.html)

[Bidule]

"a suicidal attempt to maintain a status quo that has been obsolete for many decades"

For sure, it is obsolete to try to keep working and living conditions which seem to be (a bit) civilised. That's true that the "0 hours" contracts are the future of the human beings! However, I am told that even the UK government would now challenge this type of employment; strange.... The "0 hours" contracts do NOT create jobs neither; they just give the feeling of working!

"Today's decision to give Air France/CityJet a gentle slap on the wrist for the same offence that Ryanair has been accused of just reinforces the belief that there's one rule for the natives, another for the outside world."

Sorry but it is not the "same offence". It is the same nature of offence but it was for many less persons and it stopped relatively soon as some French contracts were given (as in easyJet also condemned for same reasons) whilst Ryanair continued not to meet the European legislation.

[racedo]

Sorry but it is not the "same offence". It is the same nature of offence but it was for many less persons and it stopped relatively soon as some French contracts were given (as in easyJet also condemned for same reasons) whilst Ryanair continued not to meet the European legislation.

EU Rules only apply to any people appointed after the date the legislation becomes effective.

"The European Parliament (http://centreforaviation.com/profiles/government-bodies/european-union) passed legislation governing the payment of employee and employer social insurance costs in May 2012. The legislation governs the country in which employees and employers must pay social insurance costs. Before Jun-2012, Ryanair always paid social charges in either the UK or Ireland, the two countries under whose laws it draws up its labour contracts. Under the terms of legislation introduced in Jun-2012, employees and employers must pay social insurance in the country where the employee is based, although those employed prior to the introduction of the new legislation are exempt."

[captplaystation]

I can't find any reference, but I believe if you were previously employed but changed base, you became liable to the new legislation. . . something particularly applicable to Ryanair where a base change is an almost 100% dead cert if you wish a Command.

[sarah737]

Racedo: EU Rules only apply to any people appointed after the date the legislation becomes effective
Correct, but as soon as a minor change (base change, upgrade, trainer, change of residence,...) occurs the new rules apply.
Grandfather rights will end anyhow in 2022.

[sarah737]

CelticRambler: give Air France/CityJet a gentle slap on the wrist for the same offence

Not at all CR, Air France got a fine only because they subcontracted Cityjet. The Air France CEO was personally convicted and Cityjet will have to backpay social security for all involved. Per pilot and per year Cityjet will pay the same amount as FR.

[CelticRambler]

For sure, it is obsolete to try to keep working and living conditions which seem to be (a bit) civilised. That's true that the "0 hours" contracts are the future of the human beings!

Who mentioned zero-hour contracts? :confused: It would be nice to be able to offer 40-hour contracts, but of course that's illegal in France. And from a practical point of view, it's impossible to offer 10-hour contracts too. I know dozens of local (French) businesses that would dearly love to employ one, two or three extra people so that they could keep trading through lunchtime or until 8 or 9pm, but they can't take the risk of being saddled with an unsackable worker. Then there's the risk of going over the magic 50 employee barrier and suddenly you, as the employer, have to house and fund a "comité d'entreprise" even though your entreprise is already bound by a raft of "conventions" drawn up by the union élite. Then there are the limits on opening times - now, thankfully being overtly challenged by a few heavyweight companies, but there's a long way to go.

The defenders of the traditional French way of life seem to forget that the vast majority of people calling for change are French people born and reared in that tradition, but who want the Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité promised to them by the French state. The internet and the free movement of goods and people in the EU offers that, but the current administration carries on the work of the previous in doing everything possible to deny ordinary French citizens access to those values.

Later today (10th October) the Union des Français de l'Etranger hosts an event in Paris specifically encouraging their fellow citizens to leave France and set up business in the UK. What does that say about the level of national pride in the country today?

[poitiers]

You are just justifyingwhat can't be!

[CelticRambler]

:confused: What can't be what? The industry that employs the professionals on this forum has made it very simple for un pur-sang Français to outsource himself and his business to a friendly neighbouring country. In fact, the two go together - the more reliable the route (so not LoCo, obviously) the easier it is for French entrepreneurs to opt out of their obligations to Marianne.

If you think that's not already happening, accelerating year-on-year, I'll happily point you towards several companies within my area (not adequately served by the aviation industry) who are pressing ahead with these kind of plans in anticipation of a service that meets their needs.

National economic policy in France has been decided for years by the cosy élite of the left-right énarques and the union leaders. This action against FR is more than a simple industrial dispute. Look where it's happening: not in Paris like the easyJet/CityJet affair, but Marseille. Front National heartland. Who's heading the polls in France at the moment? Le Front National. Marine Le Pen is on the campagne trail for 2017 already, while the UMP can't even elect a leader and the PS is fighting Leroy Merlin, Castorama and other overcreating jobs because they're at the wrong time of day, or the wrong day altogether.

What you have in Marseille is a very powerful coincidence of interests between the private sector and a strong political force. There's a lot more at stake here than whether or not Rsi gets its money.

[dudubrdx]

Judging by your knowledge of france and french politics, you are either:

-a political and economical expert

OR

- An Irish/UK national living in France. Like thousands of your compatriots who live together in remote villages in the South-West / South-East of France.

Now although I welcome everyone in my home country, judging by the level of your bitterness, it might be time to take a break.:(

[dannyalliga]

regardless of your personal opinions of France, the UK, the job market, various labor laws etc. this was a legal verdict that we have to accept as a fact unless you have your own personal opinion about democracy as well.....

I welcome the verdict as one of the first steps in the right direction when it comes to a civilized work environment which should be a legal one in the first place.
the discussion about a more liberal or socialist model could go on forever and it's up to the voters of each country to decide, the only thing which people shouldn't be free to decide is to illegally exploit the freedom given to you by the EU to do business in a neighboring country without respecting their laws.
Want to base aircraft and crews in France?No problem but you should do it according to French law, as simple as that.

[racedo]

regardless of your personal opinions of France, the UK, the job market, various labor laws etc. this was a legal verdict that we have to accept as a fact unless you have your own personal opinion about democracy as well.....


Really so when has the right of appeal been smashed in France ?

Given EU law is primary then that will be where the ultimate decision is made NOT in a French courtroom.

I welcome the verdict as one of the first steps in the right direction when it comes to a civilized work environment which should be a legal one in the first place.
the discussion about a more liberal or socialist model could go on forever and it's up to the voters of each country to decide, the only thing which people shouldn't be free to decide is to illegally exploit the freedom given to you by the EU to do business in a neighboring country without respecting their laws.
Want to base aircraft and crews in France?No problem but you should do it according to French law, as simple as that.

Good so you wish French companies and Govt to adhere to the legal position in respecting National Sovreignty of Governments................perhaps you should address that close to home before setting off on the lecture tour.

[dannyalliga]

The right to appeal is there and I will be the first one to accept its outcome and Ryanair fans should do the same.

I'm not lecturing nobody, just had a read at the convention of Rome and understood the basis on which Ryanair are loosing in courtrooms across Europe.

[racedo]

I'm not lecturing nobody, just had a read at the convention of Rome and understood the basis on which Ryanair are loosing in courtrooms across Europe.

Which courtrooms ?

[dannyalliga]

Marseille and Oslo, with more to come.

[Pablo_Diablo]

Also the case in Milan there about Bergamo...

[racedo]

Marseille and Oslo, with more to come.

So aside from suggesting that a court judgement should be accepted as FACT before being reminded of right of appeal, now you are suggesting the verdicts before a court has even sat.

Interesting.

[dannyalliga]

I am not suggesting anything racedo, I am merely telling the story of two verdicts which saw Ryanair as the loosing party.
Both of them have been appealed and we can just wait for either their confirmation (very likely) or their reversal (extremely unlikely).
You might find reading the Rome Convention as eye opening in this respect and also understand the reasons behind these verdicts.

But again should Ryanair win their appeal then I will welcome any airline setting up their HQ in Dublin and then continue producing revenue in other countries without employing anybody there nor participating in their social system.

[Say Mach Number]

RYANAIR HONOURED BY CITY OF MARSEILLE FOR CONTRIBUTION TO TOURISM

Ryanair, Europe’s low fares airline, was today (18 Oct) recognised for its outstanding contribution to tourism in the Provence region, when its Deputy CEO and Chief Operating Officer, Michael Cawley, was presented with the Citizen Badge of Honour from the city of Marseille. This year, Ryanair will carry over 1.65m passengers to/from Marseille sustaining 1,650* “on-site” jobs at Marseille Airport, underlining Ryanair’s commitment to tourism in the Provence region.

Got to love the French. On one hand take FR to court on the other lets give them a prize.

Genius..........

[CelticRambler]

Marseille : la médaille offerte à Ryanair qui choque (http://www.lefigaro.fr/politique/2013/10/26/01002-20131026ARTFIG00346-marseille-la-medaille-offerte-a-ryanair-qui-choque.php)

Now the local Air France union reps are complaining that AF wasn't recognised in any way, shape or form despite contributing 500.000€ "in kind" to the Marseille City of Culture kitty - on condition that no other airline was allowed contribute. Old monopolistic habits die hard ... :}

[racedo]

Now the local Air France union reps are complaining that AF wasn't recognised in any way, shape or form despite contributing 500.000€ "in kind" to the Marseille City of Culture kitty - on condition that no other airline was allowed contribute.

That really is so :mad: funny................................they contribute and lock everybody out, everybody knows they contributed and still the good people decide another airline deserves the prize.

If ever there was a damming verdict this is it. :E

[dannyalliga]

The verdict is out there, I have a copy right here but it is in french.:E:E
But the best is still to come with the results of the appeal.

Also heard in the grapevine that more court cases are being prepared across the EU...can't wait!!:D:D:D