Looking for advice: ex Jaguar GR1(a) pilots/maint.

[fireloop]

We're a small team interested in producing a pc flightsimulation on the subject. This is a long term project. We don't anticipate a release until 2015 at the earliest.

We're looking for ex Jaguar GR1(a) drivers and maintenance personnel to advise us on what it was like to operating the aircraft. Validation of flightmodel etc.

Interested parties should email: bcpjansen[at]outlook[dot]com

Any help highly appreciated.

[newt]

What's the pay like? Any fringe benefits?:ok:

[Dysonsphere]

What's the pay like? Any fringe benefits?

Tea and biccys :ok:

[cockney steve]

Any fringe benefits?

Well , his wife's a hairdresser!

hat, coat.

[Lightning Mate]

Morning newt. :)

Between us we can knock up some stuff.

I wonder if Wholi has read this.

[Wholigan]

Just seen it. Do we have to detach to the Netherlands and do we get rates? ;)

[Lightning Mate]

I wondered when you would pitch up.

You, newt and I could spiel a few war stories to bore them.

[Just This Once...]

Do we have to detach to the Netherlands...

For heavy fits requiring earth curvature this is not a bad option.

[Wander00]

Litter tray, saucer of milk................OK, I'll get my coat

[Lightning Mate]

Don't forget yer 'ard 'at and bullet-proof vest.

[Wholigan]

Slightly seriously though fireloop, there are several ex Jagmates in here. If you could be specific about your needs, I'm sure that help will be available.

[ex-fast-jets]

newt specialises in single-engine approaches!! :eek:

[newt]

We sure could!! I might even be able to remember what a disaster it was on one engine!! Mind you, with the onset of old age it now takes a few drams to get the brain cells working!!:ok:

[newt]

Yes Bomber and proficient at ducking when the number three does a low pass to see if you are still alive!!

If only the weather at Bruggen had improved!:ugh:

[Lightning Mate]

it now takes a few drams to get the brain cells working!!

No change there then.

[Lightning Mate]

The Jaguar on none was interesting...............

[newt]

See you Thurs LM and we can discuss this further!!:)

[NutLoose]

They'll need to make it compatible to run on a Pentium 200 MHZ to get it to run slow enough to model the Jag.

[Wholigan]

That should be no problem to simulate, as the original NAVWASS had about an 8k computer, about 30% of which was used to keep the platform level! :E

[Lightning Mate]

Until FIN 1064 came along.

Yer showin' yer age Wholi. :E

Vivre longtemps les pilotes de chasse.

[lightningmate]

Ah NAVWASS! An amazing system that always knew when the cloud base was low and displayed a 'Big Cross' on the HUD when the wheels were selected up. Just enough time to check the HDD was vaguely indicating the correct horizon before the world disappeared. Happy memories!

lm

[ANDY CUBIN]

NAVWASS was great - even when it dumped, with a regular bunging in of the wind you got a map of the country - not er.. necessarily where you were in it, but nonetheless the country you took off in.

When 1064 went you were gone gone gone.

Ackle, ackle, phase change, regress PLF PLND...

[CoffmanStarter]

Gents ... Is there any truth in the rumour that the Jag was once mooted as a possible mount for the Red's ?

[lightningmate]

CS,

The original Jaguar procurement was as the RAF Advanced Flying Training platform, so that possibility could have happened. However, it was quickly realised that adopting Jaguar in that role would be 'unwise' so a new role was found for Jaguar and the Hawk came along in-lieu.

The French were even thinking of embarking Jaguar on their Carrier! Flight trials quickly raised concerns, the fright of single-engine wave-offs sealed the situation - Non!!!!!

lm

[CoffmanStarter]

Cheers LM :ok:

[Bus14]

The original Jaguar procurement was as the RAF Advanced Flying Training platform

As Dave Oakley, Harrier pilot of 3(F), once remarked - If The Jag had become the advanced trainer, Valley would be magnetic North by now!

And, yes, I am type rated on both Jag and Harrier, and enjoyed both, so I am allowed to comment.

[cornish-stormrider]

I heard a rumour they Were looking to reengine the jag but they found a pair of lawn mower lumps overstressed the engine mounts, far too torquey.

They then tried a petrol strimmer but that was too unreliable.....

In the end they stuck with the adour and fitted a creme brûlée torch to it.

[Canadian Break]

Bus - "the late Dave Oakley" - are you trying to tell me something about Soaks? CB

[Lightning Mate]

I would like to know about that too.

He and I were in contact a few weeks ago.

Godfather to my daughter.

edit: and please note that lightningmate and I (Lightning Mate) are not the same persons.

[flap15]

Is it true that the Jag was only given a second engine so that it could get to the accident site?

[Lightning Mate]

Mine got there with no engines.

[lightningmate]

But quickly :)

lm

[CoffmanStarter]

Having an interest in "Historic Early Computing" (sad I know) ... I found this article quite interesting in Flight International 1973 about the MCS.920M/NAVWASS Jag implementation and thought I'd share :ok:

Looks to me if it might have been a direct lift from the sales blurb at the time :suspect:

Flight International Jaguar NAVWASS (http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1973/1973%20-%202980.html)

Also an interesting snippet here as to why it had a tendency to topple with alacrity ...

NAVWASS Avionics (http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=12803.5;wap2)

The NAVWASS system used a novel "rotating platform" technique where the whole instrument package rotated so that gyro drift would be nulled out (meaning that cheaper/poorer performance sensors could be used).

Unfortunately this meant that all the interface signals had to pass over slip rings: any electrical noise on these slip rings was interpreted by the nav computer as a fault and the system had a tendency to "dump" on take off. As a result of complaints by the Jaguar pilots, the system was subsequently replaced by the Ferranti FIN 1075.

Maybe a NavInst expert/technician can add more ...

[Lightning Mate]

NAVWASS was replaced by FIN1064, not FIN1075.

That was the change from GR1 to GR1A.

[CoffmanStarter]

Thanks for correcting LM :ok:

[Lightning Mate]

Pleasure.

The correct name for the NAVWASS rotating platform was a carousel platform.

In those days it was common way of minimising drift, and not just for the E3R platform used in NAVWASS.

BTW, the early Nimrods had the same kit.

[Wasser]

Almost right LM.

The E3R rotated one revolution every 5min 43secs and as noted the slip rings were the primary cause of Navwass dumps. The system was designed to indicate which black box was at fault, Platform (P) Platform Electronic Unit (PEU) or Power Supply Unit (PSU) but in practice (as I'm sure you're aware) all three lights would normally indicate on the NCU.

The Nimrod Mk1 was fitted with an E3 platform which did not rotate. The Mk2 had the Fin 1012. The problem with these platforms were that the gyro/accelerometer package was physically slaved to true north. However an opportunity arose when an R was in the NMSU. I was on the Nimrod development team and was encouraged to rob it of it's Delco Carousels (one rev every minute) and fit them to a couple Mk2s. On going past 90deg N the Fin 1012s continued to indicate up to an untheoretical 92.5 deg N before toppling! Needless to say the Navs didn't want to give the Carousels back.

[howard2107]

Wow, NAVWASS, not heard that term in years. I spent no end of hours working in funny positions installing that lot from a kit into the Jag's as an up and coming J/T. Oh the memories of 'F' Hangar at Abingdon, is it still going?

[howard2107]

I remember the Jag as being the aircraft that would never need modifying.
I worked on mod number 1063 amongst others!

[Alber Ratman]

MOD 1114.. Getting rid of the 920 and the E3R for the INU..:E

MOD 1041, keeping the wings together..

F Shed died when the Army took over Abo in 1992.

DARA at Saints until 2006.. Aircraft out of there had so much wrong with them. :E

Any flight sim modellers, please, please, please.. JAGUAR DID NOT HAVE AILERONS!!:ok:

[Alber Ratman]

Lightning Mate, you could also mention the ECM/PHIMAT/ALE40 fit that was bolted on with the MOD 1114 for the "A" change.

A French website has the story of the "M" as told by one of the test pilots. It was going to be rewinged as it's lateral handling was rubbish for deck landings and PTR was never trialled before cancellation. It didn't help that the second sea trials were stopped when fatigue cracks were found on an engine or engine mounting. Google translate wasn't clear on that.

[typerated]

I never understood why the French participated in designing the Jag. They had just made the Mirage F1, which was pretty much the same spec as a Jag in terms of size, weight, wing loading etc and just a fraction more thrust and a radar - even if it was a bit crap. I believe they are still flying in the ground attack role.

I also can't see why we bothered, surely we could have just bought more Harriers and Buccs?

[Alber Ratman]

Type rated, the Jaguar was going to be the RAF advanced trainer, and had nothing to do with Dassualt until they brought out Breguet, who designed the baseline Jaguar in the first place as the BR 121 to fulfil a French requirement for an attack trainer and light ground support aircraft. If Dassualt had their way, the Jag would have been binned like the AFVG, but it was too late for them to do so. The Jaguar had its limitations (mostly to do with the supersonic trainer requirement of AST 362, the French had wanted a subsonic design originally for ECAT), but while it couldn't carry the same load as a Tornado, at least with the Jag, you could actually get a wave of aircraft up at the same time. Harriers could carry even less that a Jaguar and Navwass when it did work, thrashed the pants off the Harriers nav attack system that was even less reliable. Jaguars also took to flying low level overground a bit better for structural integrity than the Buccs did.

[sharpend]

I remember a certain AVM who used to visit us at Lossie and, being ex Hunters, he did not bother with aligning the NAVWASS and proceeded to charge around Scotland using map & stopwatch.

Nothing really wrong with that, apart from the fact that 3 - 5 G did nothing for the inertial platform. They had to changed it every time he flew:ugh:

[Wander00]

I am asking this gently and quietly - and will take f@@k off as an answer - but as a non Jag man, why is the aeroplane so maligned - was it really underpowered, or only because so much hardware was hung off it?

[NutLoose]

It's a bit like a Skoda, now a Skoda in the 70's wasn't a bad car, lots were built, but then everyone else were whizzing around in Dolomite Sprints, and those that had Dolomite Sprints looked at the slow old Skoda owners and laughed...

Same thing really, it gets much maligned because it wasn't as fast or as nimble as everything else, but saying that in its later years it was reliable, cheapish to operate compared to the rest of the fleets and didn't require taking along the population of Woking to maintain them when deployed.

[dmanton300]

CS,
The French were even thinking of embarking Jaguar on their Carrier! Flight trials quickly raised concerns, the fright of single-engine wave-offs sealed the situation - Non!!!!!

lm

Dassault, having succeeded in killing the Jaguar M (A Breguet project), partly on the basis of it's one engine out characteristics around the boat, then went on to sell the Aeronavale the Super Etendard in it's place, an aircraft whose one engine out characteristics around the boat must surely put the Jag's straight into perspective!

[Wander00]

NL - thanks, I think I get the message - should have stuck to the
B(I)8. I'll get my coat..............

[Lightning Mate]

I am asking this gently and quietly - and will take f@@k off as an answer - but
as a non Jag man, why is the aeroplane so maligned - was it really underpowered,
or only because so much hardware was hung off it?

No.

The original did lack thrust (power is thrust x TAS).

However, it had long range and is maligned by all who have never flown it and have no clue as to its' real capabilities.

Keep it above 450 kts and it was gem.

Signed,

1850 hours on Jaguars mate.

[sharpend]

Wander, the Jaguar was not underpowered! How can an aeroplane, capable of Mach 1.2 and over 800 mph at low level be underpowered? One has to understand aerodynamics to understand the aircraft.

Go into a steep turn at 300 kts and you would slow down. Do the same at 500 kts and you would maintain speed. Why? Because of lift dependant drag; induced drag to us oldies.

In a straight line the Jaguar was very fast. Pull G and it slowed. Carry the same amount of bombs as an early Lancaster and it struggled. It was not an air superiority fighter. It was a very fast interdictor bomber. It could do CAS but did not turn too well. If bounced by the enemy, one flew down in the weeds. In the days before capable air to air missiles, an sixties fighter would have problems shooting down a Jaguar at 550 kts and 50 feet.

But it did its job most effectively. As Wg Cdr Walker (boss of the OCU) once said, 'bomb in a bucket'. It delivered ordinance extremely accurately, even before the days of smart bombs. Even I, yes even me, managed 8 direct hits out of 8 bombs on Wainfleet range :)

[Wander00]

Reason I asked the question is that the Jag always seems to be slagged off - but not often by those who flew it, so wondered if all the flak was just jealousy.

[Lightning Mate]

YES.......

[Lightning Mate]

It could do CAS but did not turn too well. If bounced by the enemy, one flew
down in the weeds. In the days before capable air to air missiles, an sixties
fighter would have problems shooting down a Jaguar at 550 kts and 50 feet.


Two of us in Red Flag outran an F4 "aggressor" by doing M0.95 at twenty feet. !

He couldn't acquire.

[ex-fast-jets]

I support the previous positives.

I did 2 Harrier tours before switching to Jags.

Harrier - great aircraft and good at what it was good at.

But so was the Jag.

Take-off performance could have been better - bigger engines were available, but funding was not.

Once airborne, it really did go quite quickly, even with stuff hanging from the wings. It was small, with smokeless engines. On a Tac Bombing Comp we were intercepted by 2-F-4s over the sea. We stayed low and straight, and they couldn't see us or get a lock, even though they knew there was something there. Just don't turn! Increases height, solves interceptors' problem as your speed washes off!

Clean the wings, and it really was very nimble - but ran out of petrol quickly if you used the heaters - rather like the Lightning!

Very accurate bombing for the era.

And, actually, a delight to fly.

So take your coat off Wander00 - you asked a good question, but will no doubt have absolutely no effect on the traditional banter!!

By the way, I like Skodas!

[Hamish 123]

Fascinating stuff everyone, thanks for sharing.

You don't read this sort of thing in books and magazines!

[Wholigan]

Much maligned it was; mostly I have to say by those who hadn't flown it (although I have met a few people who flew it that really bad-mouthed it, and I have no idea why).

I thoroughly enjoyed flying the Jag and was actually impressed by its overall capability.

No it wasn't over-endowed with thrust, but it had enough for the job. The needing the curvature of the earth was a dig by those who had lots of thrust but hadn't flown the Jag. It actually got off pretty sharpish even with 8 x 1000lb bombs on board. I am allowed to say that as a comparative statement, because I also flew an aircraft that did have loads of thrust. Actually, thinking about it, 2 aircraft that had loads of thrust.

What was nice was that the Jag actually seemed to enjoy being flown at low level (something that I found out to my cost on one occasion, but enough of that right now). It also went a pretty long way with a very respectable weapons load and delivered said weapons with extremely good accuracy, good enough to hold your head high even in comparison with some of today's weapons delivery systems.

Very importantly, it was exceptionally reliable. We never went on detachment with less than 10 single seaters and 1 or 2 T-birds, and we frequently took all 12 single seaters on inventory. While on detachment we lost few - if any - sorties through unserviceability. All this with a relatively small number of groundcrew, compared with some other outfits.

Surprisingly, when flown properly it could also be a bit of a handful for other aircraft in a visual fight, guns or Winder scenario. There was one occasion when 2 Phantoms from Wildenrath bounced my T-bird in which I was giving a local area famil to a new flight commander. Fortunately for us, and unfortunately for the Phantoms, we were clean with just pylons. I took control and got a guns kill on BOTH Phantoms without getting done myself. You can confirm this by asking the new flight commander whose initials are BC. I think he was nearly as surprised as the Phantom drivers were!

Enough of this, suffice to say - as Bomber says - it was a delight to fly.

Edited to say: Oh yes forgot ...... one silly design fault was that any idiot who designs an aircraft with very little lift from its wings, and then proceeds to add a system that destroys lift on one of the wings in order to get it to roll, deserves to have been in the Navy and sent to find the Golden Rivet! However, as long as you understood that - at low speed - you didn't destroy nearly as much lift if you used the secondary effect of yaw in order to roll the aircraft, you managed quite well.

[Alber Ratman]

dmanton300, please stop copying phrases out of a book. The Jaguar M didn't work well off or on a carrier. On one engine, it was as dead as a Entendard on zero engines. It wasn't just engine power, the aircraft didn't handle well enough for the French Navy to say yes to likely improvements that required major redesign.. Dassualt were a safe option.

[Alber Ratman]

A clean Jag was sporty as I saw on my first backseater trip. The second trip was on Jordanian midday launch in T fit with half a ton of concrete hanging off the front centreline ERU.. Take off was a little longer and acceleration was a bit on the slow side. First one was with 104s and the second was 106s.. Shame the 106 wasn't funded as a complete new engine.

[Alber Ratman]

Wholigan

You know full well it was British designers that chopped the size of wing off the original French design for supersonic performance..

And it was a Frog who designed the "non effective at high AOA" lift dumper for roll control..

It's a shame that the MoD didn't allow BAe to try out the super wing design. Yes it only saved 14% weight over the standard wing, but the improvements in other areas would have been interesting.;)

[Wholigan]

Very true mate, all of that.

[ex-fast-jets]

By the way..................

Enjoy the relative peace and quiet on this thread at the moment - the ex-Lightning Jag Mates are all in London getting pi$$ed and telling WIWOL stories - again!!

Wait until tomorrow!!

[Wholigan]

:) Bomber.

[Tonka777]

I'm also building a Jaguar simulator model, and have a couple of questions to ask, if nobody minds?

Firstly, Roll Rate's. I am aware that rapid rolling can cause the aircraft to depart, but what sort of roll rates would be seen in normal Jaguar operations?

Secondly, similar to the thread about Buccaneer performance, were there any looping restrictions, or best practices used on the Jaguar? I gather it bled off quite a lot of airspeed going over the top of the loop, due to the induced drag. Does anyone have any specific numbers for speed or altitude loss during high alpha manoeuvres, such as looping?

Thank you all. :ok:

[Lightning Mate]

I could answer that but it would be a big post and we would get the usual Jaguar bashing fraternity on thread in no time.

You need an experienced Jaguar pilot like me to answer it.

As an ex-Jaguar display pilot I know a little bit about Jaguar handling on the limits.

Try Wholi.

[NutLoose]

Well help the guy instead of massaging your Ego..


Ex Jag Eng

[Lightning Mate]

They may well have done from your point of view.

[NutLoose]

The only one that had the latest engines Installed was the Jaguar skin painted one, and then only briefly.. BTW

Still what's gone is gone, the majority of the ones left in the RAF are FI life ex on the wings.

[CoffmanStarter]

Very sad to see them left out in the cold (sorry "stored" :hmm:) like this at Bentwaters :(

http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/af162/CoffmanStarter/XX842-Royal-Air-Force-SEPECAT-Jaguar_PlanespottersNet_116795_zps509819c1.jpg

For the "hard of hearing" ... the T Bird in the foreground is XX842

Image Credit as shown

[NutLoose]

The RAF ones are still partially flying, the wings were swopped on some of the Cosford ones and they went off to fly in Oman.

Saw the Spotty Jag doing runs with the uprated engines RR were offering to the Indians as an upgrade, to show they would fit etc.

[Alber Ratman]

Jaguars looped OK, just minimum entry speed and height like anything else, got video taken by a mate using my camera to film his backseat trip. Jaguar could fly inverted but only for a short time (shorter if in burner) due to fuel system would starve the engines HP fuel circuit due to its design.. Excessive Rapid Rolling at High Alpha was a sure way to put the aeroplane into a departure in publications I have seen from the national archives (The IFS Jaguar 10 year report). That publication gave all the reasons why the Jag wanted to depart at the edge of the flight envelope, but no roll rates. All I know is that the rapid roll I saw in a clean T Bird was at a guess between 120 - 150 deg/sec (that was 17 years ago) and we didn't do a complete roll. I was told that a 3/4 roll was about considered about a safe as it was to do with any load onboard. I have seen the 16 Sqn display jag do a full roll on a video (clean).. It didn't look particulary happy at the end of it, the video isn't on Youtube any more but thank god for Youtube Downloader, I have it at home. Watch and stopwatch will give you a rate..:E. The accurate answers is all in the RTS document that is still classified or known by our belearned Drivers..

Alber , Jag Eng.:E

[NutLoose]

The loop I did took in most of the sky Lol, I think we entered about 10,000 and went over the top at about 22,000.. saw the video of the Jag departing, seem to remember it wasn't a very clean affair

[Alber Ratman]

Watch the third episode of the BBC "Test Pilot" programme from the mid eighties about the training at ETPS Boscombe (still on Youtube I believe). The aircraft used for the single seater trials was the Sea Cat M05, after the cancellation of the Maritime programme.. It was known by model trials that the jaguar was a beast when departed, the single seater proved it.. The twin sticker was worse.. (and no it is not fuel coming out of the intakes , the aircraft did have smoke generators in the back of the engines to investigate the surging/flame outs that invariablely occured)..:ok:

[Lightning Mate]

Part of my display included a very slow roll and a 4 point hesitation roll at 500ft AGL.

The aeroplane was perfectly happy provided the entry speed was 400kts minimum.

[CoffmanStarter]

Yep ... I remember watching the Jag spinning sequence on Test Pilot all those 30 years ago ... :eek:

http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/af162/CoffmanStarter/b01e8b44-2521-4d1a-83d8-46df150d4dd7_zps0bb41243.jpg

http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/af162/CoffmanStarter/cff49909-4107-4c1b-be57-4138af742dc6_zps36e055ad.jpg

But forgot that Episode 4 covered a review of the Jag Nav fit ...

test pilot episode 4 - YouTube

[Alber Ratman]

LM cheers.. :ok:

This video shows a slow roll..

RAF Jaguar ground attack jet aircraft - YouTube

I'm sure the one I have seen was at a faster roll rate.. Will check it out

[sharpend]

When I was on the staff at Lossie, a certain Wg Cdr TP from Boggum Down popped up to have his 2 hour conversion. 'Can I spin it Derek?', he asked. I referred him to the film inserted above. 'You need 40000 ft and even then you probably would not recover'. Even if you do, the engines will have melted. Be sure to bang out above 10,000 ft'

He telephoned a few days later. 'Derek' he said, 'You were quite right. It did not recover.

Silly arse!

[Tonka777]

Thanks for all the replies so far. Its great to read all of the views and opinions.

Sod the Jag basher's Lightning Mate, stop teasing us and let us hear some of your stories. :)

Alber; would you be able to send me a copy of that video of the 16 Sqn Display Jaguar completing a roll?

I have collected quite a few videos from youtube with the intention of timing the roll rate, but its difficult to know the speed of the aircraft when the roll is commenced, and i'd like to ascertain roll rates over a wide range of speeds.

I have a copy of the BAE film showing the spinning trials here somewhere. If anyone would like it, i'll try and dig it out.

Lightning Mate, would you, or any of the other Jaguar Display Pilots that may be reading, consider typing out a brief description of a Jaguar display if i can find a suitable video on youtube? Something along the lines of, take off, 2g climb until n knots, then bunt to level out, climb to x thousand feet for a fast pass at n knots etc?

Thanks all. :ok:

[Alber Ratman]

Sharpend, that incident you talk about was in 1974? First RAF Jag lost was a T Bird from Boscombe with the crew banging out OK. Engine fire in a lot of the web reports, a Kew released RAF file says "Departed during high incidence clearance trials with stores" . It stopped the T-birds from flying with certain things dangling underneath for a while..
BTW the captain of the A/C was an A&AEE Wg Cdr..:ooh:

[sharpend]

Alber, yes you may be right. I was at Lossie 74 - 77 before going down to 6 Sqn at Colt. But that was almost 40 years ago now, so my memory of exact dates dims just slightly.

If my memory serves me correctly, the T Bird was a little more aggressive in a spin. The trials that did take place used a special anti-spin parachute to recover. We were told that use of the brake parachute would only result in it wrapping itself around the cockpit.

Then no ejection!

[lightningmate]

Alber,

My recollection of the Boscombe event has the A Sqn Wg Cdr riding in the back, having only just arrived on the Unit, to 'observe' the profiles being flown. That's not to say he did not get 'hands on' at some stage but I doubt it was during the test point manoeuvring leading to the departure.

lm

[Alber Ratman]

Lightningmate, I do not know if the OC was PF or the Flt Lt was with XX136, I was 8 years old at the time so wasn't in the loop.:E The story from Sharpend seemed very much like 2 + 2 = :ooh:,

The aircraft did however prove that pushing the limits with a pussy cat was dodgy and Sharpend's story would look good in a book.. Like the French AdA Colonel who dismissed the G induced spine bending yaw that the British complained about, suddenly found out "that the French kites had exactly the same problem" at 1000 ft in 1973 "l'avion est dangereux".:E

[ANDY CUBIN]

When I was on the staff at the OCU, I taught the blokes to imagine the stick could only move forward, aft and straight sideways -never diagonally.

Most seemed comfortable with the analogy -except an american exchange chap - cost us a jet eventually.

As for rolling, in my display I rolled it from inverted to inverted - seemed to do just fine.

I departed it twice in my time and both times it came out but gave me a bloody good fright - especially the second one which ended up uneditted in a flight safety video. The roll rate was so fast on that one it dumped the 1064.

If you were careful you could fly it at 20 alpha and down to 115 kt.

All in all - bloody good fun.

[newt]

What a lot of banter in such a short time!!

The boys are back from the p*** up so do carry on and we will try to catch up!!

Where were you LM?

[Alber Ratman]

Andy, your 20 Alpha and 115 Knt performances were in a "Black", non IFR capable, "C" fit aeroplane, I assume?:ok:

The Jag for the engineers was a doddle compared to the Heaps and Tonkas.. Someone actually tried to think about putting items in places were they could be removed and installed at without ripping half the aeroplane apart, when it was designed. Wherever it was French or British philosophy, I wouldn't care to comment.:E

Oh, that video of the display jet (T-bird as well) actually doing a fairly fast roll (pylons only of course) was about 0.8 seconds for the mid 180 degrees of the roll (the middle 180 degrees is going to be at a maximum rate.). .. So it did roll comfortably at approx 220 degrees/sec in the clean. As Cubes says, no major back pressure at the same time though. Others will say what they could do with bolt ons..

[NutLoose]

The Jag for the engineers was a doddle compared to the Heaps and Tonkas.. Someone actually tried to think about putting items in places were they could be removed and installed at without ripping half the aeroplane apart, when it was designed. Wherever it was French or British philosophy, I wouldn't care to comment.

Unless you wanted to access the F4 fuel tank :eek:

Certainly not a British idea, British engineering design worked on the principal of Gynaecology, poking around in the dark at items some distance from the little access hole, the only advantage being on the whole it tended to smell better.
:E


.

[Kitbag]

Unless you wanted to access the F4 fuel tank http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/eek.gif


It was the F3, you had to lift the spine and wing off, did a few of those in its final years. Actually the riggers did most of the work before multi skilling. F2 was always the worst to get into, especially for our more portly sooties :E

[Alber Ratman]

I was going to mention the centre group..:E

Retorquing the Fin rear spar attatchment bolts and wirelocking them.. Pain..:E

Towards the end it was getting a bit like Harrier world of Wing off.. Nah it wasn't..:E

[NutLoose]

I still have a row of very faint row of scars down my arm that I got when falling of a Health and Safety none approved up ended chock whilst working in the F2 tank, my bare arm scraped down the N1 tank bolt end threads tearing a perfectly pitched row of cuts.. :ok:
I also have a finger tip fatter than the others that I lowered an adour onto in the cradle, such was the pain I let go of the electric crane control that swung away from me, I had to stand their patiently awaiting it completing its swing and managing to grab it with one hand, winched the engine back off my finger.. :(

[Alber Ratman]

Cutting yourself on the sh*te titainuim heatsheilds of a Leaping Heap canoe was worse..:E

[Tonka777]

Thanks for timing that video Alber. Could you guesstimate an entry speed for that roll please?

Could anyone comment on any pitching moment due to flap deployment too? My assumption is that the nose pitched down slightly with increasing flap deployment to reduce the wing alpha, but that is only a guess.

Thanks.

[ANDY CUBIN]

Alber,

the display slow flypast was done at 17 alpha and about 122kt. Never pushed that one as when we simulated losing an engine at that point, it needed a sharp bit of stick and throttle juggling to get out of it.

The 20 alpha could be done with care once the tanks were empty - didnt lose at 1v1 often because I cheated!

As for being out of control below 500ft over moon country... still gives me a shudder nearly 20 years later.

Top jet and top people though.

Is Newt the same as who nabbed my IP-TGT map off me as we walked out at Chivenor and then bollocked me for missing the plank over stream?...:)

[ex-fast-jets]

Is Newt the same as who nabbed my IP-TGT map off me as we walked out at Chivenor and then bollocked me for missing the plank over stream?...http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/smile.gifI doubt it!

newt would struggle to find either a plank or a steam!!

He was, after all, ex-Lightnings, so even finding a bear or a bison or a badger would be a challenge - without help!!

[Canadian Break]

Surely he would have no problem finding the Bison Bomber, it's in the baffroom in'it?

[Ronald]

Cubes,

I remember watching the S-VHS video of your 'uncommanded roll' over moon country at 500kts+ with the alpha warning bleeping as you bottomed out at not many feet. Great jet though despite its little idiosyncrosies. Take care.

GM

[RodfjH]

Don't forget the soft field operations specialist here!

[Alber Ratman]

Tonka 777, entry speed would be as LM said, 400 Knts minimum.

As for flap deployment, a certain Jagmate of a number plate disposition told me trim changes with flaps were not gentle, nor were trim changes with selection of burner or deselection and the air brake tail plane compensation wasn't great in some configuations (pitching up moments for extension and vice versa for retraction even with the minimal compensation by the autostab system).

The large tailplane movement was mainly to cater for the changes of handling with the flaps lowered.. That could cause problems in the more extreme areas of the flight envelope. That was written by a BAe test pilot.

[newt]

Thank you Bomber, yet again!!!

Was not on the staff at Chivenor so it could not have been me!!:E

[Alber Ratman]

Never seen this before.. Some posters in this thread had a hand in this..:E

Jaguar GR1A - YouTube

Exactly as said.. XX116, amazing that aircraft being virtually the only one non IFR capable GR1A (and 3A), survived almost to the bitter end. Loved it when an authoriser planned it for a tanker sortie! :E

[Tonka777]

Thank you Alber.

I have been told previously that the air brakes were perforated after the prototype pitched up very violently with air brake extension. The prototype of course had solid, non perforated air brakes.

I'd be interested in just how non gentle the trim changes were with flap deployment, if possible. Particularly, i'd like to know which way the trim changed.

Thanks.

[Alber Ratman]

Seen some head up S-VHS of a Jag being rolled at below 350 Knts, the rolls being done as the aircraft was under restrictions in speed for op reasons, but with a backseater engineer onboard (and the explaination that aeros in a Jag were more comfortable above 400 knts). Also seen Nutlooses loops, 4 G and 10K ft of airspace is not an overestimation..:ok:

[ukmil]

for anyone who wants to fondly remember, I have already done a Flightsim model

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i305/noddy1966/jag3.jpg
http://www.ukmil.org.uk/e107_files/public/1314715710_3_FT62328_image1.jpg
http://www.ukmil.org.uk/e107_files/public/1314715710_3_FT62328_image2.jpg
http://www.ukmil.org.uk/e107_files/public/1315951734_3_FT58538_image1.jpg

[baigar]

for anyone who wants to fondly remember, I have already done a Flightsim model

Wow - pretty cool! What is the status of the project meanwhile and can the model be obtained separately, e.g. as Step-File for loading into a CAD system? Just want to add that I restored one of the 920M computers from the Jaguars last year. A video featuring the machine, its other applications and showing some software running can be found on YouTube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-gF5g0nnoE

By the way: A version of the original flight program also survived and is located at "The National Museum of Computing" at Bletchley ;-)

[baigar]

If anyone out there comes accross schematics of the 920M computer (or its successor, the 920ME), please get in touch - that would be highly appreciated! Many thank and best wishes...

[NutLoose]

If anyone out there comes accross schematics of the 920M computer (or its successor, the 920ME), please get in touch - that would be highly appreciated! Many thank and best wishes...

I might just impress you, googled the 920 and got

https://rochesteravionicarchives.co.uk/collection/general-purpose/elliott-920m-computer

in the description it gave a dead link

http://www.computerconservationsociety.org/software/elliott903/more903/Manuals/index.htm

so searched

www.computerconservationsociety.org

and from there to

https://www.computerconservationsociety.org/software/software-index.htm

that then linked me to

https://www.computerconservationsociety.org/software/elliott903/base.htm

which then linked me to

https://andrewjherbert.github.io/Elliott-900-archive-web-site/

and from there you might get what you want?

https://andrewjherbert.github.io/Elliott-900-documentation/

or

https://github.com/andrewjherbert/Elliott-900-documentation

Ahhh... I sometimes amaze myself and hope that is what you need :)

Note the link above the last 2 links has details on how to run it through a simulator.



..

[baigar]

Thanks for that documentation - of course I know these sites and I am working with Andrew Herb and Terry Froggatt who is a real software expert on the 900 series. In fact they have two non-working 920M computers (one donated by me and one from the RAA) and we are trying to figure out more on the internals to fix and fire up an additional machine in the UK. The goal would be to have on top of mine in Germany another one running at The National Museum of Computing (TNMoC (https://www.tnmoc.org)) in Bletchley Park!
So we are not looking for software documentation or the schematics of the cabinet size machines (they use discrete transistors), but for schematics for the internals of 920M using the SMD mounted DTL logic chips. Nevertheless - thanks for all your efforts and maybe something is showing up in the future...

[NutLoose]

Have you asked on Flypast. Or the Jag forums on Facebook?

[baigar]

I had asked on the XX764 restoration group, but maybe I will also ask in what looks like the biggest and most active Jaguar
group on facebook, www.facebook.com/groups/SEPECATJaguar/ . The RAA probably has got some data, but they are not
allowed to share anything :-(

[NutLoose]

I will ask on a couple of closed Jag forums for you, btw seen this?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/304037096021?hash=item46ca05ea55:g:pQcAAOSwsNFgzIfR (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/304037096021?hash=item46ca05ea55:g)

one thought, these guys do military radios, it might be worth an ask as they may have come across one during their collecting, as they have loads of radio manuals on line.

https://www.vmars.org.uk/VMARS_Manuals

[baigar]

Ahh, very nice - one of the Jaguar's air data computers; I had thought, it used the same computer
part. no. 81-01-26 (6TP/6205277) as Nimrod did, but obviously it is different, 81-01-08.
Have a little video on the Nimrod's air data computer in my YouTube channel:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gq5-RNpyvog

[Paul C]

Hi baigar
I've got a 920M in my Jaguar cockpit but not much of the supporting equipment. Very little hope of ever getting it operational but could donate specific parts if it helps you out.
Cheers Paul