Lightning crash

[ancientaviator62]

I am currently reading 'Lightning Eject' by Peter Caygill. On page 19 her refers to the crash of XN785 and the death of F/O George Davie of 92 Sqn, and seems to suggest that the BOI got it wrong by the implication that the a/c had run out of fuel.
I was a J/T on 92 at the time and my recollection of the event is that we (the groundcrew) were told that he had run out of fuel, the engines wound down and that had caused the generators to fail. Can anyone shed any light on other possible reasons for the crash that were mooted at the time ? (Caygill does allude to DC pump problems but gives no source for his statement). Although no doubt exhilarating for the pilots to fly the Lighning was a servicing nightmare for all trades, with AC failures being particularly prevalent.
Whilst I was on the squadron we alas became very proficient at 'rest on your arms reversed' as we also lost F/L 'Mac' Cameron in a Hunter and a SNCO who committed suicide.
Memory is an odd thing but in my mind's eye I can still see all three chaps very clearly.

[AGS Man]

According to the excellent Wolverhampton Aviation Group Website The Pilot had been trying to reach Leconfield short of fuel due to a systems fault. What systems fault it does not say.

[ancientaviator62]

AGS man,
thank you for the reply. Perhaps the systems fault mentioned was one of the AC failures that I remember so well. Our Mk 2 a/c did not have any means of resetting the system in the air. I understand that later marks did have a reset button but I left my ground trade shortly after the crashes so do not know for sure

[NutLoose]

It doesn't make nice reading

ASN Aircraft accident 27-APR-1964 English Electric Lightning F.Mk.2A. XN785 (http://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=56574)

[ancientaviator62]

NutLoose,
the information in the link you provided was common knowledge at Leconfield shortly after the crash. We had hoped that he had ejected safely but when we heard that he had not the armourers were very concerned about a possible seat malfunction due to some mistake on their part. This proved to be not the case.

[On_The_Top_Bunk]

Not quite a crash but almost!

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/76196935/1278877_248963588585818_1506070713_o.jpg

[longer ron]

Wow that is quite a picture...interesting to see that the airbrakes appear to be out :)
What was the story ?

rgds LR

Edit - I only mentioned the airbrakes because I thought it was an undershoot - but looking again perhaps it was not and lens effect gave me that impression !

[soddim]

If I remember this particular accident, it occurred shortly before I arrived at Leconfield and the story was one of running out of fuel after staying too long on the tanker trying to make contact. However, several years later, it was discovered that at very low fuel states in a cruise descent (idle/fast idle) the aircraft attitude allowed the fuel pumps to become cavitated as they became uncovered by the low fuel left in the tanks and that would result in double flame-out.

Regardless of this discovery, it appeared that the pilot's initial diagnosis was electrical failure as the engines stopped driving the electrics. That delay in recognising the real problem was, unfortunately, fatal.

[Petrolhead]

longer ron: we always used the airbrakes on landing as it increased the drag which meant we had more power on to give us better throttle response.

O_T_T_B : Yep remember it well - 11 May 1987, and a particularly crud day even for Binbrook. We were the only one airborne and all the way down the ILS they were calling it on limits. I took over as we broke out at 200'
(quote: "because I signed for it") and while adjusting to the centreline and getting it straight I ran out of aileron in a huge gust - full right stick and she is rolling left off the downwind side of the runway.

You don't normally find yourself looking at a vasi out the side window of a Lightning below 20 feet and I had had full side stick on for some time and she was still rolling, so the only thing I could think of left to do was take off the rudder. ( we were non-diversion - one go only). We bounced off the downwind-wheel at the edge of the runway and the bounce took us right back to the centreline where I pulled the brake-chute and taxied in. The Caravan called a wing strike but there were no scratch marks on it!

That night in the bar ( after a few stiff ones) I asked ATC why they had not called the real wind. Apparently because I had called "Precautionary" and they knew I had to land they decided not to tell me.

25 minutes in my log book - 5 seconds of it I will never forget :eek:


ps: If you really want to hear a good story, ask about the Mk3 that crashed on take-off and powered itself off the runway with no wheels down and the runway on fire.

Aahh W.I.W.O.L

[On_The_Top_Bunk]

Petrolhead thanks for the recount!

I hope the passenger enjoyed it.

[D120A]

Ah yes, Petrolhead, that Mk3. 1981 I think? Interesting that as the ventral touched and its fuel plumed out, our friend hit the reheats (well, you would, wouldn't you?), and the reheats lit the fuel...

A fact which, years later, caused me to go into battle to insist that reheats were a likely ignition source in the Concorde take-off accident at CDG.

The Lightning landed safely, however, with a very cooked lower fuselage that took many moons to re-skin and sort out. Happy days.

[longer ron]

Longer ron: we always used the airbrakes on landing as it increased the drag which meant we had more power on to give us better throttle response.

Thanks PH...yes I realised that - as I had added - when I first saw the pic I had thought it was an undershoot - it took me another look to realise that it was prob a x wind :)...that lens effect !!

Lovely action shot though and thanks for filling in the details for us :)

[Wander00]

D120A. I remember that one too - trying to remember the pilot's name - I was OC Accts at the time.

[D120A]

W00, see your PMs

[ancientaviator62]

soddim,
initially we (the groundcrew) thought that the a/c had indeed had an AC failure. This was endemic with our Lightnings and caused the pilots and electricians much grief. I well remember one of our a/c came back with an AC failure and the SOP was for him to keep the engines running whilst it was investigated. On this occasion the JENGO and the EE rep climbed up on the wing with an AVO and opened the spine. The pilot followed their instructions and opened the throttles. As the 'letterboxes' opened the AVO probes disappeared down them ! This of course in front of a large audience. One a/c with AC failure and now requiring an engine change.
The job of investigating these problems was handed back to the 'leckies'.
'Interesting times' as the Chinese say

[GeeRam]

Ah yes, Petrolhead, that Mk3. 1981 I think? Interesting that as the ventral touched and its fuel plumed out, our friend hit the reheats (well, you would, wouldn't you?), and the reheats lit the fuel...

F.3 XP701, Jan 21st 1982.........??

Isn't there a fuzzy b&w photo published somewhere of this incident.....?

[Lightning Mate]

XP701 was "my" aeroplane for a while.

Got an oil painting by Rex Flood in me house.

[lightningmate]

And the 'not quite a take-off case' happened more than once with a Mk 3, plus one or two other Marks over the years!

lm

[newt]

It certainly did! I was talking to one of the culprits just the other day! Very hairy moment as he recalls!:ok:

[D120A]

You were in that noisy basement too, eh Newt?

[Cows getting bigger]

This may be a daft question, but could anyone offer a view on why someone would try to 'dead stick' a Lightning rather than eject?

[newt]

I was D120A. Far too hot down there too!

If the seat did not work or the canopy would not jettison!

It was also found out that it could be landed wheels up with the engines working!!

[BOAC]

Ah - yes, the famous Wattisham display teams. Most squadrons used to have (in 't'old days') a 'Wing-Ding' on a Friday afternoon, but Wattisham made that into a 'Ventral Ding' tradition. Much tittering on the senior squadrons up north, but if I recall correctly the first Wattisham squadron to groove the runway was followed a subsequent Friday by the other squadron repeating the 'unfortunate event', obviously not wishing to be outdone...............

I think the games stopped at that point.

[Monsun]

Have done extensive research on the Lightning, in terms of sinking back onto the runway after take off I make it five as follows

1) 6/5/66, XM213 of 226 OCU, S/L Paul Hobley
2) 27/9/66, XR714 of 111 Sqn, F/O Graham Pritchard
3) 9/1/68, XN728 of 92 Sqn, F/L David Cousins
4) 29/10/71, XR711 of 111 Sqn, F/L Eric Steenson
5) 7/8/72, XP700 of 29 Sqn, F/O George Fenton

The first four ended in the barrier and F/O Fenton ejected after take off. If anyone knows of any others I would like to hear about them.

There were certainly two incidents where Lightnings were landed wheels up.

[neilf92]

Don't recall seeing Dave Cousins reach the barrier - the jet just ground to a gentle halt about level with our line where I was stood half in / out of an F2 cockpit watching the drama unfold .

[Monsun]

Thanks neilf92, I stand corrected!

[Fitter2]

Whereas Paul Hobley nearly reached the Colt Village to Guardroom road. I almost spilt my morning coffee.

[smujsmith]

Eric Steenson, would that have been the QFI I had a great low level trip in a bulldog with, when he was a QFI on ULAS circa 1977/79 from Abingdon. Fine pilot, can't have stoofed the greatest fighter ever built I'm sure.

Smudge :ok:

[Lightning Mate]

but could anyone offer a view on why someone would try to 'dead stick' a
Lightning rather than eject?

If you mean with no engines...

no engines = no hydraulics = no flying controls

[partsvn]

Didn't someone try to eject and the canopy jammed. He dead sticked it in a field(windmilling engines gave hydraulics) but hit a tree and the canopy came off and fired the seat.

This produced the double pull handle if I'm not mistaken

Hope 3rd October was fun. I'll make it one day

[newt]

It was fun parts but too many missing to make it a great day!!:ok:

[kaitakbowler]

That was a Wattershambles a/c, 56Sqn. Ejection seat failed to fire as the canopy did not release , superb forced landing unluckily ended in tragedy when a/c stopped by a tree, canopy dislodged and seat fired thru the tree

[On_The_Top_Bunk]

Air traffic audio from Lightning XR769.

Pilot ejects at Spurn Point after suffering engine fire.

Ejection at about 06:10 into audio.

XR769 - YouTube

[Rhino power]

Dick Coleman was flying XR769, Ian Black was in the second Lightning...

-RP

[thing]

Seem to remember Dick Coleman was Australian. Wasn't he the last guy to bang out of a Lightning?

[Rhino power]

Seem to remember Dick Coleman was Australian. Wasn't he the last guy to bang out of a Lightning?

Yes he was Australian and, yes, he was the last pilot to eject from a Lightning. It was April 1988, only about 2 months(?) left to go...

-RP

[thing]

I remember him getting wet. Was at Binbrook 85-88 and remember Charlie Chan going in over Cyprus way and Baz Lennon bending an F3 in a work up display flight (saw that one).

Does anyone remember the name of the M.Plt who used to run the sim at that time? Little guy, let me have a go one day. Bit basic wasn't it.

Talking of M.Plts I have a photo in front of me of 38 LCC-Oct 67 and there's a M.Plt Rowe in the photo. Didn't realise that M.Plts were still flying fighters at that time.

[sitigeltfel]

The Caravan called a wing strike but there were no scratch marks on it!

25 minutes in my log book - 5 seconds of it I will never forget :eek:

Out of curiosity, who took the photograph.... spotter, someone in the caravan?

Hopefully not the runway controller?