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JammedStab
29th Sep 2013, 01:10
Mont Blanc climber stumbles across £200,000 treasure trove full of Indian jewels on glacier


A French Mount Blanc mountain climber who stumbled upon a case of cut jewels worth hundreds of thousands of pounds has been praised by police for immediately handing them over to authorities.


The treasure trove of emeralds, rubies and sapphires had been buried for decades.

The jewels, estimated to be worth up to 246,000 euros (£206,000) lay hidden in a metal box that is believed to have been on board an Indian plane that crashed in the desolate landscape some 50 years ago.

Police commander Sylvain Merly of France's Savoie region said the experienced climber, who has asked to remain anonymous, found the box marked “Made in India” while scaling one of the peak's glaciers.

He turned it over to police on 9 September.

Authorities are hoping to trace someone connected to the original owner of the box, who is presumed to have been a passenger on one of the two jets that crashed in 1950 or 1966.

Merly said debris from the Air India crashes regularly rises to the surface on Mont Blanc.

“Things come up from the glaciers,” Merly said. “They're always moving.”

Merly said the climber's decision to turn over the box immediately “means that there are still honest people.”

“He could have kept them but he chose to turn them in because he knew they belonged to someone who probably perished,” Merly said.

The 1950 crash killed all 40 passengers and 8 crew members on board the flight. All 106 passengers aboard the 1966 flight died, after the plane crashed in almost exactly the same location. The cause of the second crash was never established.


Mont Blanc climber stumbles across £200,000 treasure trove full of Indian jewels on glacier - Europe - World - The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/mont-blanc-climber-stumbles-across-200000-treasure-trove-full-of-indian-jewels-on-glacier-8844555.html)

Another Malabar Princess engine found? - Chamonix news (http://www.chamonix.net/english/news/2008-10-01a.htm)

Effluent Man
29th Sep 2013, 09:30
It's a fine line between honesty and stupidity isn't it? if it is indeed a crime to keep schtum it's hard to think of a more victimless and less likely to be detected one.

Halfbaked_Boy
29th Sep 2013, 13:19
Honesty cannot be split into black or white. It is an infinitesimal scale.

Unfortunately my honesty 'cut off' falls a little shy of the climber in the article, mainly due to the two factors presented by Effluent Man.

Maybe, just MAYBE, somebody out there is missing this treasure, but the chances are so slim in my mind that I would have elected to have GTFO quick.

I hope the irony of this post isn't lost :ok:

racedo
29th Sep 2013, 13:23
Er ... not if you're an honest person Mr sewage...

:D:D

A liar is always a liar, a coward is always a coward.

Making you mind up what you are early in live is something you will have to live with a long time.

TWT
29th Sep 2013, 13:32
I wouldn't keep the jewels.

Who knows,I might fall victim to the 'Curse of the Malabar Princess' if I did decide to keep them :eek:

Anyway, thieving is still thieving,which ever way you look at it

G-CPTN
29th Sep 2013, 13:51
Finding a single diamond ring on a remote mountain location might be considered impossible to trace, but a box of unmounted emeralds would be impossible to dispose of without raising questions.

Of course there are people who would try, but the flow of a quantity of such gems would inevitably be reported by reputable dealers.

onetrack
29th Sep 2013, 14:08
The pleasurable feeling you get from returning lost valuables, lasts for life. The pleasurable feeling you get from selling stolen goods is fleeting, and is always replaced by a permanent feeling of fear or guilt. :)

Lon More
29th Sep 2013, 14:35
Presumably a 10%, or thereabouts, reward from the insurers all above board. Getting rid of them on the quiet would probably not bring him much more and possibly less if he has no knowledge of the market

M.Mouse
29th Sep 2013, 14:45
....it's hard to think of a more victimless and less likely to be detected one.

An interesting line of thought that whether to be a thief or not depends on whether the individual thinks the crime is victimless or not, assuming any crime can be truly victimless.

Weak morals and feckless behaviour are one of things which make modern society so bloody unpleasant these days.

Fareastdriver
29th Sep 2013, 14:46
That is assuming that they were insured. They might have been nicked in India and were on their way to be fenced in London; Customs was fairly slack then.
Should the owner not be traced then it could be a case of the finder can keep them.

P6 Driver
29th Sep 2013, 14:48
Perhaps the best reward of all for the finder is having a clear mind and no guilt resulting from his actions. A financial reward might be a good pat on the back though.

lomapaseo
29th Sep 2013, 15:02
Finding a single diamond ring on a remote mountain location might be considered impossible to trace, but a box of unmounted emeralds would be impossible to dispose of without raising questions.

Of course there are people who would try, but the flow of a quantity of such gems would inevitably be reported by reputable dealers.

I would have tried just to see if anybody could actually figure out where I got them.

Perhaps even a little disguise like having them mounted into old settings or belt buckles

RJM
29th Sep 2013, 15:05
In some places, a finder has better title to such things than anyone except the owner (and heirs, in a case like this).

That raises other issues. Would you feel that while you could keep the jewels, you could not not sell them, or cut them etc? How long should your heirs keep them as is before they feel that they could deal with them?

dazdaz1
29th Sep 2013, 15:11
"The jewels, estimated to be worth up to 246,000 euros (£206,000) lay hidden in a metal box that is believed to have been on board an Indian plane that crashed in the desolate landscape some 50 years ago"

If I found them in a desolate landscape, I would consider it 'fate/good luck' that I'm there at the right time. I'd be on the next flight to Saudi and the auction house.

Having said that, I am aware of a law in the UK of theft by finding. I would imagine this would not apply in these circumstances considering the location is non UK.

Daz.

Still walking the beaches of Hastings with trusty metal detector for a sniff of the gold from the Brinks-MAT job.

ExXB
29th Sep 2013, 15:40
The glacier now housing the two AI aircraft have been extruding bits and pieces for years. Last year a 'diplomatic' bag with proper seals intact was found and returned to the Indian foreign ministry.

The locals are worried that the glacier is now going to be seen as a 'treasure island' and lots of incompetent idiots are going to come and comb the glacier for their share of the 'loot'. They are not particularly worried that any other troves will be found, but that these idiots are going to need rescuing - at the risk of their lives.

Glaciers are dangerous places.

dazdaz1
29th Sep 2013, 16:05
ExXB........"Glaciers are dangerous places"

From the words of Swiss Tony.... "treat them like a lady and they will melt in your arms"

Daz

Sunnyjohn
29th Sep 2013, 17:59
The pleasurable feeling you get from returning lost valuables, lasts for life. Some years ago I bought a suede jacket from a local charity shop. When I got home I found £50 in the inside pocket - quite a bit of money then (1975). With the money was a business card. I phoned and asked if the person had given a jacket to the charity shop. Following the affirmative, I explained that he had left £50 in the pocket. His reply was so offhand that I was tempted to hang up and keep the money. Instead I offered to meet him at the shop and I would give him £25 and the shop £25. And that's what we did: he had £25, the shop had £25 and I had the jacket. We all went away happy.

Sunnyjohn
29th Sep 2013, 19:59
You're right - ludgar - I'm too much of a softie. I just hope he bought his missus something nice with the £25 - one can hope!

OFSO
29th Sep 2013, 20:34
My dad (county librarian) found a rasher of bacon that someone had used as a bookmark - still in the book.

It was on a council estate in Leicester - in former times (as if I needed to add that to anyone who knows Leicester today).

G-CPTN
29th Sep 2013, 20:37
My dad (county librarian) found a rasher of bacon that someone had used as a bookmark - still in the book.Likewise Mrs G-CPTN who was a librarian (now retired).

lomapaseo
29th Sep 2013, 22:23
any thought that the rasher was really a persons body that had died years ago reading the book ?

Loose rivets
29th Sep 2013, 22:49
I'd be concerned that the 'orthoraties' would end up owning the loot. I'd do my own sloothing, and the owners, if there were any surviving, would be offered the lot.

Funnily, I've been penning a draft for a new novel. I'm 16, and on the beach at Walton on the Naze. I find a box with an intriguing lock. While hauling it home, someone has been watching me, and want's in on the pickings.

Because of my local knowledge, I duck into my mate's front garden that has a seaside right of way. Nasty man stops. By the time he's at my house, I've opened the lock, removed dozens of bags of diamonds, and clicked shut the intricate lock again. The man is only half convinced by my efforts to struggle with the lock.

The diamonds are well documented. They came off a certain sunken ship that had been hounded by the Nazis for days before sinking. Now the spoils have become mine.

I now make contact with one Michael Samuel, following a story in the Times. He tells me who is dead, and who is alive. Together we put a few things right, but the watcher is not at all satisfied - and so it goes on.

Airborne Aircrew
29th Sep 2013, 23:06
Finding something is never "stealing". It was lost and now it is found. It doesn't matter what the law says really, the law is, usually, an ass.

If you are silly enough to lose something do you really believe it is my job to track you down to return it? If you think I should then you are a bit silly. You need to pay attention to what you are doing. Usually, things that are of value are heavy and make a sound when they hit the ground. If they aren't, be smart enough to put them in something that makes a noise when you drop it... and pay more attention to your valuables...

I've dropped several things, (I'm not perfect... but my daughter thinks I'm close, :ok: ), I hear most but when I haven't I have almost always been able to retrace my steps and find the errant object.

Dropped is lost, lost is found and no theft is incurred... Live with it... Unless it has an ID in the mix then it's fair game.

G-CPTN
29th Sep 2013, 23:42
Is £16billion cash stash left at Russian airport for six years Saddam Hussein's secret fortune? - Mirror Online (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/16billion-cash-stash-left-russian-2321570)

TWT
29th Sep 2013, 23:44
Usually, things that are of value are heavy and make a sound when they hit the ground

You bet.Especially an airliner when it hits a mountain.

G-CPTN
30th Sep 2013, 00:07
The box of jewels has been trapped in a glacier for several decades.

Would the moral dilemma be different if the people on the scene immediately after the crash(es) had 'found' the box?

Likewise if you see someone 'lose' an item and you pick it up?

Checkboard
30th Sep 2013, 00:21
Finding something is never "stealing". It was lost and now it is found. It doesn't matter what the law says really, the law is, usually, an ass.

Honestly! :ugh: Next time I come across your parked car, I may just say "Hey - I've found a car!" :rolleyes:

EVERYTHING is owned. There is NO SUCH THING as "finders keepers". If you find something, you are morally (and legally) obliged to make every effort to find the owner and return the item.

Any attempt to keep an item without having made every reasonable effort to find the true owner is theft, and is prosecuted as such. :cool:

Airborne Aircrew
30th Sep 2013, 00:50
Checkboard:

Next time I come across your parked car, I may just say "Hey - I've found a car!"

Are you a complete idiot or do you just do it for a hobby?

If you can't tell the difference between my car parked on the street, locked and with an alarm on it and something poking out of a glacier in the middle of nowhere then... Well... You lack cognitive skills... :ugh:

G-CPTN
30th Sep 2013, 01:03
It might be the middle of nowhere at present, but it was the scene of an aircraft crash. Decades might have passed but it is still an identifiable location where known people perished.
Does time erase the facts that these artifacts belong(ed) to those people - or does their death absolve you of the moral duty to restore their valuables to their employer or surviving relatives?

How long is the statute of limitations after which all finds become flotsam?

Keef
30th Sep 2013, 01:17
When I was a lad, it was called "larceny by finding", but that may be all different these days.

I was taught that you hand stuff in at the police station. Some months later, a nice policeman comes and gives it to you and tells you it's yours, now.

broadreach
30th Sep 2013, 01:37
A practical aspect to consider is that a climber on a glacier is not likely to have been alone. What to do with the find would probably have been a joint decision, and there is no indication that such a decision was taken on the spot or after descent and research as to the possible origin of the jewels.

I think that if I had been the finder and with a group, it would have gone that way, research and decide to inform the "authorities". Alone, the moral dilemma would have been much greater and, never having been faced with such a one, I don't really know what I'd do.

svhar
30th Sep 2013, 01:46
Split it on the spot. Or the nice policeman splits it with the other nice policemen.

500N
30th Sep 2013, 01:49
I wonder what the chances are of the original owners relatives being found,
or even if they know who the original owner is.

Airborne Aircrew
30th Sep 2013, 01:51
As much as you that wish to tell me how wrong I would be remember that I said "Unless it has an ID in the mix then it's fair game."

Without ID, found in the middle of nowhere, no-one can be expected to waste resources trying to find the original owner, especially one who may have been dead for half a century.

When I hear whiners like those above I always wonder what value would be required before you'd zip your mouth and take the profit.. Each man has his price, you lot just whine because yours hasn't been met.

Don't even bother to lie, you'll be so transparent.

cattletruck
30th Sep 2013, 02:04
Oh the conundrum.

Just glue all those beautiful gems on the mantle piece with a note saying where you found them. Then when you shuffle off it becomes someone else's conundrum. I'm mean that's their true value isn't it, it's not the dollar value.

500N
30th Sep 2013, 02:05
I saw a reference that the Jewels were mentioned in a book
about the two crashes and that Lloyd's was also mentioned.

That would mean someone would know who owned them.

So if a payout way made by Lloyd's, they might belong to them ?

TWT
30th Sep 2013, 02:07
Each man has his price

Not everyone does.

Donations pour in for homeless man who returned backpack with $42,000 inside - Americas - World - The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/donations-pour-in-for-homeless-man-who-returned-backpack-with-42000-inside-8826697.html)

727gm
30th Sep 2013, 02:11
Honor is a man's gift to himself

broadreach
30th Sep 2013, 02:14
"Split it on the spot" might be the first thought. It might be mine as well. But how trustworthy are your partners on the climb, people who perhaps you've never met before setting out? I'd guess the decision to inform the authorities came after a lot of soul-searching and arguments. And I do hope they have some reward for their having come forward.

svhar
30th Sep 2013, 02:24
Very easy, broadreach, those against, die in an accident on the way down.

broadreach
30th Sep 2013, 02:37
svhar, do I detect some fueling of the fire? Organising the murder of those who didn't agree to splitting up the proceeds? What a story that would make.

svhar
30th Sep 2013, 02:44
I have seen too many movies, broadreach. It was supposed to be a joke.

broadreach
30th Sep 2013, 02:56
Gotcha svhar, I was taking it all too seriously!

500N
30th Sep 2013, 02:57
Svhar has been watching the Eiger Sanction :O

If in doubt and good enough, lead the climb (or descent) :ok:

svhar
30th Sep 2013, 03:34
That was the movie, 500N and the book is even better.

onetrack
30th Sep 2013, 03:36
Would there still be some record of the jewels being on board, anywhere? Does the cargo manifest for the flight still exist in some form?

Was the jewel box being carried as a personal luggage item, and never recorded as cargo?
When did the existence of the jewels first become recorded? Directly after the crash, when relatives of the passenger, or part owners of the jewels, wailed about their loss? - or were they known about at departure, and properly recorded as being on the flight?
Was an insurance claim ever submitted for the loss?

One wonders whether the jewels were all properly recorded - or whether they were being improperly sneaked out as contraband?
If the latter was the case, then it seems Karma was at work, and the ending is going to be better than one of LR's novels!

I think I'll have to go and have a good scout around Carnot Bay again - surely there must be a few diamonds left! :)

500N
30th Sep 2013, 03:42
Onetrack

I mentioned in a previous post that they were mentioned in a book
about the crash and Lloyd's was mentioned. It was at a time that
the Maharajah's were losing a bit of power and the glory days
were behind them.

Polikarpov
30th Sep 2013, 05:52
How long is the statute of limitations after which all finds become flotsam?

Good question, I mean somewhere there's a line in the sand. What would it be? Beyond one generation's lifespan? Two generations? Five? If you dig up a load of Roman coins you don't go looking for the descendants.

Not terribly applicable to aviation accidents, I guess, what with it still being a young mode of transport, but there must be precedent elsewhere. I guess marine salvage might have the answers.

RJM
30th Sep 2013, 08:45
OFSO and GC's wife - how long did you keep the bacon before frying it?

There's a swag of English law on 'Trove'. The word 'Crown' keeps popping up.

I've sometimes wondered after how long does 'grave robbery' become 'archaeology'?

500N
30th Sep 2013, 08:55
What if you found a wreck of some explorer or aviation pioneer
like that Lady flyer who went missing ?

Or Denys Finch Hatton had crashed somewhere in the middle
of Africa and his aircraft wasn't found until 2010 ?

RJM
30th Sep 2013, 09:02
Amelia Earhart?

I'd shut up until I had all the pictures, information etc and had written the book. Then, I'd look for all the publicity I could get.

Wonderworld
30th Sep 2013, 13:46
Honestly! Next time I come across your parked car, I may just say "Hey - I've found a car!"

EVERYTHING is owned. There is NO SUCH THING as "finders keepers". If you find something, you are morally (and legally) obliged to make every effort to find the owner and return the item.

Any attempt to keep an item without having made every reasonable effort to find the true owner is theft, and is prosecuted as such.

Well said. I wonder what valuable bits and pieces one might find trawling through a crash site such as UA93?

lomapaseo
30th Sep 2013, 16:18
Well said. I wonder what valuable bits and pieces one might find trawling through a crash site such as UA93?

some of the stuff you find you don't want to find, it can screw with your mind thinking about a person.

I once scoured through a site curious about seeing how far away some of the debris might have come.

I was stunned to see the size of an electrical box that had to come from at least a mile away.

http://fromtheflightdeck.com/MEL/PPRune/Trash.jpg

RatherBeFlying
30th Sep 2013, 19:13
My inclination would be to obtain legal advice, which would likely begin with a written inventory with weights and photos. Turnover to the local constabulary would be arranged with the presence of an accredited gemologist so nobody would be tempted to make surreptitious substitutions:E

If an insurance claim was made, there will likely be some reward from the insurers. It is in their interest to pay rewards to encourage the honest folk.

If the box was being surreptitiously exported, there will not likely be any legitimate claimants coming forward.

The less upright will set up in the estate and/or storage unit clearout business -- and make the odd valuable "discovery" every so often:E

Loose rivets
30th Sep 2013, 22:45
If that electrical box came from a crash, I'd watch out for flying houses in them parts.


then it seems Karma was at work, and the ending is going to be better than one of LR's novels!


Ah, Hah! Little do you know. The nasty man keeps lurking and peering into one's garden. He knows where the garden shed is.

In the meantime, opening just one bag of stones causes bizarre changes in the continuum. Bad luck descends upon the heads of those in possession of the jinxed gems in spades. Teeeeeerible bad luck, but enough time is given to return the gems to their dedicated pouch.

In an mischievous moment, the protagonist gives the jinxed pouch to the menacing lurker. In hours the poor man is beset with terrible reprisals - the souls of the lost escapees focused on punishing his greed.

Airborne Aircrew
30th Sep 2013, 22:48
Well... That was lucid... :confused:

Loose rivets
1st Oct 2013, 01:03
As lucid as a not-very-lucid person describing very misty imagery, after falling off their bicycle and hitting their head on a solid thing. The entire proceedings caused by too much vino injected directly into their cerebellum. :\

airship
1st Oct 2013, 02:40
It's enticing to speculate on the origins of the jewels and their final destination. But perhaps not too much if they're only worth less than €250,000 (approx. US$300,000 in today's money...

It doesn't even really matter whether or not the jewels were carried aboard Air India flight 245 in 1950 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_India_Flight_245) or Air India flight 101 in 1966 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_India_Flight_101). Though I prefer the latter. The aircraft type was a Boeing 707, registration VT-DMN and named Kanchenjunga (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kangchenjunga). The name has some significance here perhaps:

Kangchenjunga is the official spelling adopted by Douglas Freshfield, A. M. Kellas, and the Royal Geographical Society that gives the best indication of the Tibetan pronunciation.[3]

The brothers Hermann, Adolf and Robert Schlagintweit explained the local name Kanchinjínga (Tibetan: གངས་ཆེན་མཛོད་ལྔ་, Wylie: gangs chen mdzod lnga, ZYPY: Kangqênzön'nga, Sikkimese IPA: [k̀ʱɐŋt͡ɕʰẽd͡zø̃ŋɐ]) meaning “The five treasures of the high snow” as originating from the Tibetan (following IPA given in Sikkimese Tibetan) word "gangs" /k̀ʱɐŋ/ (English approx. /kaŋ/) meaning snow, ice; "chen" /t͡ɕʰẽ/ (English approx. [ʧen]) meaning great; "mdzod" /d͡zø/ meaning treasure; "lnga" /̃ŋɐ/ meaning five.[9] The treasures represent the five repositories of God, which are gold, silver, gems, grain, and holy books.[citation needed]

There are a number of alternative spellings which include Kangchen Dzö-nga, Khangchendzonga, Kanchenjanga, Kachendzonga, Kanchenjunga or Kangchanfanga. The final word on the use of the name Kangchenjunga came from His Highness Sir Tashi Namgyal, the Maharaja or chogyal of Sikkim, who stated that "although junga had no meaning in Tibetan, it really ought to have been Zod-nga (treasure, five) Kang-chen (snow, big) to convey the meaning correctly". Following consultations with a Lieutenant-Colonel J.L.R. Weir, British agent to Sikkim, he agreed that it was best to leave it as Kangchenjunga, and thus the name remained so by acceptance and common usage.

Perhaps it was one of the few remaining Maharajas of the day, attempting to circumvent currency controls etc. and wishing to pay for his new RR or Bentley? Or same Maharaja simply paying for his offsprings' education at Eton? Or a crooked politician wanting to deposit his ill-gotten gains in a Swiss bank? Or how gems are transported worldwide to this very day?

Let's face it. The very best jewels ever to leave India mostly ended up on one of the UK's Crown Jewels (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown_Jewels_of_the_United_Kingdom), no theft or insurance companies involved...

IMHO, the anonymous mountaineer who discovered the treasure never had 2 choices, of either declaring it to the authorities or not. A younger man or stranger without roots might have had this option. Anyone with responsibilities etc. would have had no choice but to declare his discovery. But hopefully will receive some recompense.

PS. The main reason I contributed here is that I was born not very far away from Kanchenjunga. And for some reason, I felt compelled to contribute... :ok:

RJM
1st Oct 2013, 06:36
Ever read 'The Kanchenjunga Adventure' by F S Smythe, airship?

parabellum
1st Oct 2013, 06:55
Anyone know what the law of the land they were found in has to say about valuables being found? I don't think treasure trove applies in this case does it? Air India will probably claim them and say they agreed to insure the jewels themselves, unless an underwriter can come up with some proof of paying out a claim.

Effluent Man
1st Oct 2013, 09:20
I must admit to having found some of the righteous indignation on this thread quite amusing.I would have been more sympathetic to the views expressed had I believed that they would not have varied according to the circumstances of those purveying them.

Imagine this scenario : Your son/daughter is on the brink of house repossession of their property and the break up of their family.You have no assets and they need,say £20,000.You find a rucksack hidden under a hedge containing this amount in unmarked notes.You are aware of a bank robbery a year earlier,say Barclays,when this amount has been stolen..Barclays have just been in the news,they made £3biliion profit in six months,paid their CEO who achieved this by illegally manipulating LIBOR rates a £5million bonus A What do you do with the money? and B.What is the ethical thing to do with the money

Wonderworld
1st Oct 2013, 12:35
Easy. You hand it in.

beaufort1
1st Oct 2013, 12:45
Yep, as with the jewels I would hand it in. :)

KAG
1st Oct 2013, 13:16
Nice post Airship.

Air India crashing 2 times at the same place, diamonds, high mountain area, nice airliners... Last century will become legend for aviation.

onetrack
1st Oct 2013, 13:40
On one of the news items I read, it stated that 3 boxes of jewellery were listed on the cargo manifest of the Malabar Princess.

If this statement is true (and I have no idea how or where the news website acquired this information, if it is true), then it kind of takes all the gloss off AA's speculation about Maharajahs, crooks, ill-gotten gains, and all the other "shady origins" and "dubious reasons" - and shows that the jewellery movement, was all above board. :hmm:

And of course, if this manifest claim is true, it raises the spectre that there's two more boxes of jewellery yet to be found .. or two have already been found, and surreptitiously disposed of ... :hmm:

El Grifo
1st Oct 2013, 13:42
No guys, just hand it to me !

I will hand it in for you :}

El G.

Airborne Aircrew
1st Oct 2013, 14:03
Onetrack:

I'm afraid I wasn't the one to come up with the theories. I simply stated that if I found it and there was no clear way to ID the original owner then finders keepers applies. In this case it seems there is a clear path to the "owners" so the "trove" would be sent to them.

Sunnyjohn
1st Oct 2013, 14:06
EM
a. Hand it in
b. Hand it in
Your son/daughter is on the brink of house repossession of their property and the break up of their family. and it would be interesting to speculate why that might be. I suspect that if I had allowed my son/daughter to get into that situation, I probably would not be the sort of person who would hand it in.

Effluent Man
1st Oct 2013, 14:27
That post probably illustrates my point perfectly.There are millions who might get in that position through no fault of their own.Maybe just bad luck.I'm guessing that 98% of the general population would keep the money in the example that I gave.Maybe Ppruners are just incredibly honest people.

funfly
1st Oct 2013, 15:37
It doesn't matter if Barclays has made a zillion profit and that they are an immoral organisation, taking anything from them is still stealing.

I am disgusted by the attitude of some of the posters in this thread who seem to believe that you can take anything as long as you can get away with it.

Yes if you are destitute and owe £20,000 then you come across some 'lost' cash it still does not belong to you.

By taking anything that is not yours you might have gained financially but you will have lost your self respect and, more important, the respect of others.

Saying that 'no one will know' cannot ever justify theft.

FF

Airborne Aircrew
1st Oct 2013, 15:40
Funfly:

Please don't tell me you have never picked up a coin or even a note off the street and pocketed it because, like everyone else here, I'll call you a liar.

Now we have that out of the way we find that you are as immoral as everyone else. You just put a different price on your immorality. So to come here blustering and grumbling about others is a tad hypocritical don't you think?

Effluent Man
1st Oct 2013, 17:30
That raises an interesting twist to the argument doesn't it? Who is the more honest,: the person who admits that he is going to keep what he finds or the one who claims to be totally honest in every way?

G-CPTN
1st Oct 2013, 17:33
Try taking a coin to the Police station and see what response you get.

Sunnyjohn
1st Oct 2013, 17:35
Despite my previous comments here, AA, I think you are nitpicking. If you see a coin in the street, you are hardly about to take it down to the police station; they'd probably arrest you under the mental health act. Similarly with a note. In those situations I would, and do, look around to see if there is anyone nearby who is looking for said coin or note and, if so, offer it to them, as has been done many times to me. If it was a credit card, chequebook or wallet, I would take it to the police station. If none of these things pertained, I would, indeed, put said coin or note in my pocket and consider it a lucky day. No doubt there is a stance somewhere between yourself and funfly but for myself I would err towards funfly.

Sunnyjohn
1st Oct 2013, 17:37
Sorry, G-C - you just beat me to it!

Checkboard
1st Oct 2013, 17:55
There is no requirement to take found items to the police station - the police aren't some giant "lost and found" organisation! The requirement is to make every reasonable effort to find the owner and return the item.

Obviously if you pick up a small denomination coin, then every reasonable effort may just be looking around to see if anyone is searching for it... (i.e. there is no legal or moral need to rush off to the police station with it).

james ozzie
1st Oct 2013, 19:03
I read an article by a newspaper columnist describing a low denomination coin lying on the sidewalk outside his office for a week. Nobody could be bothered to pick it up; not even the street beggar. It was really a comment on the devaluation of money.

(Gates/Jobs: "Shall we toss a coin? What's a coin?")

Airborne Aircrew
1st Oct 2013, 19:08
My point is that when someone comes in making a clear black and white argument then he must either stick by it in black and white or accept that there is a grey area and each person will have various shades of grey. One person my say that finding a tenner in the gutter is ok but a hundred will go to the copshop whereas another may say a hundred goes in the pocket and a wad of fifties goes to the copshop.

Finfly claims the black and white side as do many others here right down to claiming disgust of those intelligent enough to see the grey area. I was simply pointing out his hypocrisy. It was him that said:-

By taking anything that is not yours you might have gained financially but you will have lost your self respect and, more important, the respect of others.

Saying that 'no one will know' cannot ever justify theft.
At least I'm honest.

radeng
1st Oct 2013, 21:07
I once found a £1 coin in the street. Taking it to the police station would have cost me about £2 in petrol. So I kept it until I was somewhere with a charity box - from memory, it was either the Sally Ann or the British Legion. I still think it was a fair compromise.

Sunnyjohn
1st Oct 2013, 21:35
The requirement is to make every reasonable effort to find the owner and return the item.I think you'll find, Checkboard, that I did cover that in my Post 76

Effluent Man
1st Oct 2013, 21:56
OK Mr Funfly,try this one on for size. Your wife needs expensive life saving medical treatment.You find the cash and it belongs to AlQuaida intended to fund a terrorist attack.Keep it or hand it back?

Airborne Aircrew
1st Oct 2013, 22:03
Your wife needs expensive life saving medical treatment.You find the cash and it belongs to AlQuaida

Could it be someone other than his wife... Someone he might like... :E

Checkboard
1st Oct 2013, 22:35
I think you'll find, Checkboard, that I did cover that in my Post 76

Good for you, Sunnyjohn :ok:
Did you do that after reading post 29? ;) :p

500N
1st Oct 2013, 22:39
Effluent Man

Interesting question. I know what I would do.

Question though, how do you know it belongs to AQ
and where did you find it ?

What if you found it but it wasn't lost but you knew
it belonged to AQ ?

Airborne Aircrew
1st Oct 2013, 22:59
If I knew something belonged to AQ I'd either destroy it or keep it... Am I a bad person?

500N
1st Oct 2013, 23:08
No.

No reason not to "knock it off".

funfly
1st Oct 2013, 23:21
Effluent man, I think your reaction to my post says a lot more about you than I.
I stick by what I said, theft is theft and cannot be justified by the feeling that one can get away with it.
As to the question have I ever nicked anything, of course I have. However that does not make it right or me a hypocrite.
You sound a nasty bit of work to me.
FF

Airborne Aircrew
1st Oct 2013, 23:26
Funfly:

Pay attention. I called you a hypocrite. You really can't make a black and white post in public and then, clearly, be on the black side. Step back, take a deep breath and admit that your last post was a puffy chested, ill conceived woffle and we'll all be happy... Blame it on wine if you like... :ok:

ShyTorque
1st Oct 2013, 23:28
All this talk about picking up coins reminds me of a true tale.

Many years ago, as a teenager, I worked for a builder in Nottingham. We were working on a site next to a pet shop, just off Lower Parliament Street. The then new 50 pence pieces had just been issued. The girls in the pet shop Araldited one to the pavement just outside their shop. Many folks thought it was their lucky day but broke fingernails trying to pick it up. Meanwhile the girls were in fits of giggles inside the shop, knowing that their 50 pence was safely stuck down.

One of our apprentice brickies walked past, spotted the coin and bent down to retrieve it. Obviously, he failed, and then heard ribald laughter from inside the pet shop. Undaunted, he went back, cool as a cucumber, with his brick hammer in his hand, gave the coin a clout and pocketed it. The girls ran out yelling but they were too slow for Bob Fenton! He had high-tailed it round the corner. :ok:

Airborne Aircrew
1st Oct 2013, 23:31
Shy:

That 50p was there to be taken... By s/he with the brains and equipment to do it... :ok:

G-CPTN
1st Oct 2013, 23:36
You discover a bag of white powder and rolls of £20 notes hidden in a hedge whilst you are out for a walk in a remote place, together with a rather nice pistol and a box of ammunition.

TWT
1st Oct 2013, 23:52
And then on the way out you meet the 'owners' of said items who have come to retrieve them.And they just 'know' you have their goods on your person http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/tongue.gif

Worrals in the wilds
1st Oct 2013, 23:57
You find the cash and it belongs to AlQuaida intended to fund a terrorist attack.Keep it or hand it back? Quietly give it to the Church on condition they treat her for free in their hospital. Both problems solved...:E:}

parabellum
2nd Oct 2013, 00:28
Obviously if you pick up a small denomination coin, then every reasonable effort may just be looking around to see if anyone is searching for it... (i.e. there is no legal or moral need to rush off to the police station with it).

Right, so when I find a 1944 British penny on the street I'll just keep it!;)

500N
2nd Oct 2013, 00:32
AA

What if you had to kill an AQ member in the process ?

Does that change things ?

What if it was Taliban Cash ?

What if you had to kill a Taliban member to get it ?

or as you were exiting with the cash, they attacked you ?

V2-OMG!
2nd Oct 2013, 01:16
This thread reminds me of a film I recently viewed on TCM; The Mountain (1956), starring Spencer Tracy and Robert Wagner. (The screenwriter obviously based the film on the same Air India crash).

Plot: An Indian airliner crashes in the Swiss Alps. The two brothers (Tracy and Wagner), decide to climb to the crash site - for different reasons. The Tracy brother wants to rescue any survivors. The other brother wants to plunder the passenger's belongings. (This is the 1950s, only the relatively wealthy fly on airliners, as the greedy brother points out.) It doesn't fare too well for one brother. (And I'll leave it at that, in case some of you get a chance to see the film).

Airborne Aircrew
2nd Oct 2013, 01:41
500N:

AA

What if you had to kill an AQ member in the process ?

Does that change things ?

What if it was Taliban Cash ?

What if you had to kill a Taliban member to get it ?

or as you were exiting with the cash, they attacked you ?

In order:-

No brainer

No, more fun

No brainer

More fun

No brainer...

:E:ok:

500N
2nd Oct 2013, 01:46
I thought as much.

I agree.

Airborne Aircrew
2nd Oct 2013, 01:47
500N:

Are you my long lost brother? :}

500N
2nd Oct 2013, 01:56
We could be :ok:

That would almost be the perfect crime ?

Knocking off cash belonging to AQ / Taliban ?

Airborne Aircrew
2nd Oct 2013, 02:02
500N:

Knocking off cash belonging to AQ / Taliban ?

Unfortunately, the only man in the west that might prosecute is called Eric Holder... :rolleyes:

500N
2nd Oct 2013, 02:05
You are probably right.

He'd also try to knock you up for "dealing with terrorists" :O
or whatever the term is.


Maybe we should just "straw buy" Semi Auto Black guns and
ship them to undesirables like Crims and Narcos in Mexico.

After all, we know that is legal :O

Airborne Aircrew
2nd Oct 2013, 02:06
He'd better not wake me in the morning... :E

tdracer
2nd Oct 2013, 02:30
A very wise friend once told me "Everybody has a price, what differentiates people is what that price is".

And before someone flips out over the suggestion they could be 'bought', your price may not be monetary - for example, it might be the lives of your family/loved ones :=

An old joke puts it a little differently:
Guy walks up to a beautiful woman in a bar, introduces himself, and says
"If I gave you a million dollars, would you sail around the world with me on my private yacht?
Woman response "I'd love to!"
Guy pauses for a second, then says "Would you go to that hotel down the street and have sex with me for twenty bucks?"
Woman yells "WHAT KIND OF WOMAN DO YOU THINK I AM!"
Guy calmly replies "We've already established that - we're just negotiated the price"
:)

Effluent Man
2nd Oct 2013, 07:32
On the AQ question I agree with the answers given by the honourable member for Detroit. Funfly,a nasty piece of work eh? And what exactly is that lofty judgement based upon.It can't be my perceived dishonesty because you have already admitted to not being honest yourself.Sorry I can;t quite follow the bit about not being a hypocrite.

I just have a feeling that by demonstrating a situation that was a sufficiently pale shade of grey your position became untenable and you don't like that and so made a personal attack.I can understand that nobody likes to lose an argument in public.The answer though is not to take up an indefensible position.

Effluent Man
2nd Oct 2013, 08:15
Take the EM honesty test.Scores out of twelve please Keep/Hand back:

1.A passenger next to you on the bus leaves her purse behind.Contents £100 and cards/address etc.You are walking past on your way home.

2.Yobbos being pursued by the police throw a bag containing £250 from their car.Proceeds of a robbery on a local corner shop run by nice old Mr Patel.

3.Same situation and amount.Proceeds of a robbery at a Tesco shop.

4.You find a wallet with £1000 cash.ID for Bernie Huddlestone a well known millionaire sports promoter also known to be a c**t.

5.A local businessman has hidden £10k in cash that he hasn't paid tax on.You know where it is and he can't say it's been nicked or he will get done.

6Up Mt Blanc you find £250k in jewels from a fifty year old air crash.Needs some thought on disposal but doable without much risk.

7.You get your bank statement that should have a few hundred quid in it.The computer has put a nought on the end and you now have £5000.You have lots of account movements from your business so it is easy to argue you would not have noticed.

8.You find £100k proceeds of a robbery at Barclays.They have just declared record profits,largely from LIBOR manipulation.Paid CEO £5million bonus.

9.You discover where a local drug dealer hides his cash.There is £100k there and you can get it risk free.

10.As 9 but he has also left a gun.You will need to shoot him to get the money.He is a scumbag who has killed others including innocent people.But you will get away with both the cash and the murder.

11. The Marquis of Brigadoon Tarquin McTavish,having spent the family fortune on a drug fuelled lifestyle has hidden the family silver for an insurance scam.He has been rumbled and they won't pay.You find the stash worth £50k.If he gets it back the sale proceeds will fund another year of the life that will kill him.

12.Islamic terrorists have hidden £100k in cash to plan an attack.You find it.

I have listed them in order of possible justification,although you may disagree.Scores please!

Edit:: My own score 2/10

cockney steve
2nd Oct 2013, 12:01
If you changed #4 to Bernie Ecclestone,you might have some more takers

It could also be construed as libellous.

WRT E.M's honesty test, I'd like to think i'd do the honourable thing and report to the Authorities....However, the local Manchester police are best , most charitably, viewed as incompetent.
Having zero confidence in their ability to pro-actively sort out minor crime, it seems citizens are left to their own law-enforcement.

Terrorist money....donate to UKIP/BNP :E
drug dealer/gun..... use gun to persuade dealer to ingest a lethal dose of his own product.....then cal plod to say there's a stiff with a gun at a certain location . call Amnesty or one of the anti-drug charities to appraise them of where a large "anonymous" donation may be found.

TWT
2nd Oct 2013, 12:06
Ok Steve,if you think so...

Checkboard
2nd Oct 2013, 12:11
Is Bernie Ecclestone Celtic as well?

Checkboard
2nd Oct 2013, 12:29
1.A passenger next to you on the bus leaves her purse behind.Contents £100 and cards/address etc.You are walking past on your way home.
I would have stopped her before she left the bus and handed it back. As an aside, this occurs everyday on the airline.

2.Yobbos being pursued by the police throw a bag containing £250 from their car.Proceeds of a robbery on a local corner shop run by nice old Mr Patel.
I would take to the police station as evidence, and leave a statement as to the time of the event and make & model of the car.

3.Same situation and amount.Proceeds of a robbery at a Tesco shop.
How would you know?, Anyway I would take to the police station as evidence, and leave a statement as to the time of the event and make & model of the car.

4.You find a wallet with £1000 cash.ID for Bernie Huddlestone a well known millionaire sports promoter also known to be a c**t.
I would contact Mr. Huddlestone, and inform him (as a fellow Celt) that I had found something that probably belonged to him, and ask him to describe it.

5.A local businessman has hidden £10k in cash that he hasn't paid tax on.You know where it is and he can't say it's been nicked or he will get done.
I would contact HMRC & the police with the location and information about his tax fraud. (I assume I would be this gentleman's accountant in this scenario - otherwise how would I know he hadn't paid tax?)

6Up Mt Blanc you find £250k in jewels from a fifty year old air crash.Needs some thought on disposal but doable without much risk.
I would report the find to the authorities - I would photograph the jewels and sell the story (which I DO own) to the papers.

7.You get your bank statement that should have a few hundred quid in it.The computer has put a nought on the end and you now have £5000.You have lots of account movements from your business so it is easy to argue you would not have noticed.
ABSOLUTLEY I would contact the bank and tell them of the error. Electronic records of this last forever, and the stories are legion of people being prosecuted for stealing in this fashion. Probably the easiest decision here, only an idiot would do differently.

8.You find £100k proceeds of a robbery at Barclays.They have just declared record profits,largely from LIBOR manipulation.Paid CEO £5million bonus.
The proceeds of the robbery is evidence to catch the crooks. I would report the cash to the police for forensic investigation to help with the removal of thieves from society.

9.You discover where a local drug dealer hides his cash.There is £100k there and you can get it risk free.
I would report the cash to the police in order to remove the drug dealer from my neighbourhood - both honest AND a better outcome.

10.As 9 but he has also left a gun.You will need to shoot him to get the money.He is a scumbag who has killed others including innocent people.But you will get away with both the cash and the murder.
As a scumbag murderer then I REALLY want the police to get the evidence on him, rather than end up in the nick for murder and theft myself. :ugh:

11. The Marquis of Brigadoon Tarquin McTavish,having spent the family fortune on a drug fuelled lifestyle has hidden the family silver for an insurance scam.He has been rumbled and they won't pay.You find the stash worth £50k.If he gets it back the sale proceeds will fund another year of the life that will kill him.
It doesn't need you to pinch it to deny the Marquis his silver sale proceeds (although I am impressed that you are concerned for Tarquin's health). As he has been rumbled by the insurance company, I guess he is in enough trouble already! As to his drug habit - he needs help, but that is a different issue, and my actions would depend on how well I know him.

12.Islamic terrorists have hidden £100k in cash to plan an attack.You find it.
So the choice is: Pinch the cash (with all of the attendant trouble explaining to the bank/HMRC where I got it), keep shtum, and thus let the attack go ahead - or report it to the police anti-terrorist unit to both obtain a conviction and stop the attack? And your decision would be to pinch the cash? :suspect:

I have listed them in order of possible justification,although you may disagree.Scores please!

As we have already established that you would steal jewels from an aircraft crash site - this wasn't you as well, was it? :suspect:
BBC News - Gloucester cemetery graveside hole jewel-theft theory (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-gloucestershire-23945400)

Effluent Man
2nd Oct 2013, 13:12
The test allows only for Keep/Hand back answers.All intended or non intended consequences are void for the purposes of the test.Interesting the bank one that you say was the easiest to detect actually happened to me in 1972 when I was a student.

The sum involved was around £200 (probably at least £2k in today's values)It came from a large company. I asked my economics lecturer what to do.his answer: Get it out quick!

And no the grave robbery wasn't me.If the council have any more holes to fill in though I wouldn't mind the job for £100.About ten minutes work.

Checkboard
2nd Oct 2013, 15:03
Bank Error in your Favour, Collect £200? :suspect: You weren't playing Monopoly?

Are you sure you didn't steal the £200 from some poor Granny, (not that it makes any difference to your honesty levels) - just like poor Sally:

Silly Banking Error Costs Woman $36,000 - Business Insider (http://www.businessinsider.com/silly-banking-error-costs-woman-36000-2013-2)

Why would you ask an economics lecturer a question on morality? He probably went on to a great career in UK banking. :rolleyes:

M.Mouse
2nd Oct 2013, 15:15
Frankly EM you appear to be trying to justify dishonesty.

My parents were both very strict on being honest in life from not telling lies to not taking other people's property.

When I was about 10 years old I wanted a pen knife and my parents wouldn't buy me one. I found one on the windowsill at my school one day which had probably been left there by a teacher. I took it. I knew it was wrong and I felt bad about it to the extent I returned it the next day to where I had found it.

I have never stolen or cheated anybody since.

Airborne Aircrew
2nd Oct 2013, 16:17
I have never stolen or cheated anybody since.

But you have picked up coins off the floor and pocketed them, right?

Effluent Man
2nd Oct 2013, 16:36
Rather than trying to justify dishonesty what I am doing is taking the pragmatic view.In the two examples that I gave where I would return the goods/money some harm would accrue to the loser.In the other ten none would occur.In fact in one an argument could be made that I was doing young Tarquin McTavish a favour.The multi millionaire Mr Huddlestone wouldn't miss his grand and Tesco would be unaffected by their loss.

Airborne makes the point about varying shades of grey and I am relatively unmoved by the protestations of the righteous.When I was young I worked in a department store and the head of the paint department half inched materials to redecorate his church.

funfly
2nd Oct 2013, 17:06
When I was young I worked in a department store and the head of the paint department half inched materials to redecorate his church.

But that doesn't make it right.

I get the impression that there are some posters here who would accept taking goods that did not belong to them as long as the rightful owners would not miss it and there was no chance of them being found out. I am not condemning them, simply saying that this attitude is fairly common in this day and age and I think it's a pity.

I place honesty fairly high on the attributes that I admire in people and it pities me to see people quite openly admitting that their own values of honesty have gaps in them to suit circumstances. I would certainly be reluctant to have them in my own house where many bits and pieces are left around on trust.

Effluent Man
2nd Oct 2013, 17:43
Then you either deliberately (giving you the benefit of the doubt) or erroneously misunderstand my position.I don't think that anything that I have said in the course of this thread that could lead you to believe that I might steal something from an individual. Why then would I return Mr Patel's takings?
As an aside how would you rate energy companies deliberately putting customers on the wrong tariff and supermarkets mounting false promotions.Both these must be sanctioned at board level.

G-CPTN
2nd Oct 2013, 18:01
I had a works-provided 'biro' leak whilst it was in my pocket.

I submitted a claim for the cost of dry-cleaning which was rejected as "it could be deemed that I was stealing the pen" . . .

M.Mouse
2nd Oct 2013, 18:15
But you have picked up coins off the floor and pocketed them, right?

Is that stealing then if I have made sure they don't belong to someone who has just dropped them and have no way of returning the coin(s) to the rightful owner?

As an aside how would you rate energy companies deliberately putting customers on the wrong tariff and supermarkets mounting false promotions.Both these must be sanctioned at board level.

Wrong and immoral.

Perhaps they employ people with similarly flexible morals to your own.

Airborne Aircrew
2nd Oct 2013, 18:17
Funfly:

I would certainly be reluctant to have them in my own house where many bits and pieces are left around on trust.

You'll be pleased to know, just in case I ever find myself in your abode, that I'm quite sure I either already have those "bits and pieces" or I have no interest in them...

You are clearly mistaking the act of larceny to that of innocently finding something and determining whether or not the expenditure of effort in locating it's original owner is worth it. They are quite different.

Effluent Man
2nd Oct 2013, 18:20
Like it or not we live in a cutthroat competitive world where a company who refuses to join in will quickly lose profits.I just hope none of you are the people who mourned Thatcher because that is where these attitudes came from.

airship
2nd Oct 2013, 18:31
tdracer :ok:

One of my most favourite movies, Kelly's Heroes (MGM 1970):

The Mike Curb Congregation-Burning Bridges-Kelly's Heros - YouTube

Followed by one of the most memorable scenes from that movie:

Kelly's Heroes | "Showdown with a Tiger" - YouTube

Going after treasure should always be excused if you're a GI and it's WW II. Especially when it results in the German lines being infiltrated much to the happiness of a US general fond of handing-out medals. What more could one ask for? Given the choice of a medal or my share of the gold, well, how about both? Shame it was all just a fiction. Or was it? ;)

Effluent Man
2nd Oct 2013, 18:41
My mate's dad bought a Mercedes 540K cabriolet from a GI who had liberated it from Germany in 1945.Sadly he took £1250 for it fourteen years later.Big mistake.

chuks
2nd Oct 2013, 19:29
In your heart of hearts you will know yourself for a creep if you keep stuff that simply does not belong to you. You lose something of your sense of self in exchange for something worth much less than that.

And that test, EM? That's a load of crap: giving two unsatisfactory choices when there are much better ones available in real life. The way you set that up, it gives theft as the smart option. Remind me not to ask you to hold my wallet when I go in swimming!

M.Mouse
2nd Oct 2013, 19:40
I just hope none of you are the people who mourned Thatcher because that is where these attitudes came from.

Of all the bollocks you write that statement probably wins the prize for being the most incorrect.

If what you say is correct I am amazed that she managed to influence the whole world because the attitudes you decry are not limited to the UK.

I also didn't realise that you had been so influenced by her because you clearly exhibit the attitude you claim she engendered.

Effluent Man
2nd Oct 2013, 19:49
No pal,I already had it.Being working class it came with the territory.She taught the middle classes that it was chic to be a little bit fly.

jumpseater
2nd Oct 2013, 20:32
Checkers
8.You find £100k proceeds of a robbery at Barclays. They have just declared record profits, largely from LIBOR manipulation. Paid CEO £5million bonus.
The proceeds of the robbery is evidence to catch the crooks. I would report the cash to the police for forensic investigation to help with the removal of thieves from society.


Clearly Mr Checkers is a part time bank blagger.

How would he know the 100k was from Barclays unless he'd been part of the team when they turned the gaff over? Presumably he's the getaway 'driver' with 150 witnesses that can't definitely ID him as all they'd see is the back of his head as he sits in the front left hand corner. :ok:

funfly
2nd Oct 2013, 22:39
determining whether or not the expenditure of effort in locating it's original owner is worth it. They are quite different.

Well obviously you think so, maybe that's where we differ.

Airborne Aircrew
2nd Oct 2013, 22:43
Funfly:

Well obviously you think so, maybe that's where we differ.

Stop trying to tiptoe around the issue. You made the statement(s). You admitted to prior theft but now you are arguing that finding 10p piece or a pound coin and keeping it is unacceptable...

Admit that, whether you like it or not, your morality only differs from that of anyone else's by magnitude. It's ok to be honest, in fact, that's what we are discussing... ;)

GrumpyOldFart
2nd Oct 2013, 23:09
Re Checkboard's post #114:

Silly Banking Error Costs Woman $36,000 - Business Insider (http://www.businessinsider.com/silly-banking-error-costs-woman-36000-2013-2)

In the 60s, the major UK banks used a check digit in their customer account numbers, so that entering one wrong digit in the a/c number would invalidate the transaction. According to the article Sally had incorrectly typed in just one of the eight digits in the account number – and the money was sent to the wrong person.

If the report is correct it would seem to me that, by failing to utilise technology which had been commonly available to banks for 40 to 50 years, for the principal purpose of protecting their customers' interests from errors such as this, the bank has been negligent, and 'Sally' has grounds for action against her bank.

onetrack
3rd Oct 2013, 03:13
Brenden Abbott, Australian career criminal, stole AU$6M from greedy, unethical banks during his robbery career in the early 1990's in my State.

He buried large amounts of it in a pine plantation not far from me. Considerably less than AU$3M of that AU$6M was recovered, and senior police believe that more than AU$3M is still buried in that plantation.

Abbott is not due to get out until about 2021, having been given a sentence of 23 yrs for robbery, shooting with intent to avoid capture, and a host of other offences.
If he's released from the QLD jail where he's held, W.A. Police and S.A. Police will seek his extradition on another raft of robbery charges that will see him in jail until he dies.

Abbott fired his weapon at my old bank manager schoolmate Nigel in one of his major robberies, and fortunately for Nigel, he missed. Nigels life has been ruined by the trauma of Abbotts ruthlessness.

Now, the moral dilemma I face is - should I go looking for Abbotts stash? - and when I find it, should I give a large amount to Nigel?
I could keep the rest as as a "finders fee", couldn't I? - seeing as "finders fees" are a long-established tradition in business, aren't they?

Please advise me - I'm seriously torn about this ethical dilemma. :) :)

500N
3rd Oct 2013, 03:20
I'd find it first and then worry about what you are going to do with it.

But I would suggest thinking about having somewhere else to
hide it if you do find it.

Oh, and don't forget to send a slightly burnt $10 note and a few pine needles
to Brenden Abbott just to give him something to think about.

TWT
3rd Oct 2013, 04:30
Send him some pine needles anyway,even if you don't bother looking for the cash

onetrack
3rd Oct 2013, 06:44
500N - Oh, I'm fairly sure I could find it. Modern technology is a wonderful thing. :) I just need to cover a few dozen hectares. :)

I couldn't possibly send Brenden a $10 note. The money is all in $50's and $100's, the notes he has a distinct liking for. I'm not sure I'd want to waste a $50 or a $100 on him. :hmm:
I could do the pine needles bit O.K. However, I'd obviously need to send the letter anonymously, and use disposable gloves when I handled it. :)

Oh ... another thought just occurred to me. I'm starting to feel a twinge of guilt about wanting to keep all the banks money. Would it be better if I just kept $1.5M and handed in $1.5M to the cops, saying that that was the total amount I'd found? :suspect:
That would assuage my niggling conscience to a large degree - and they do say that sharing is caring, don't they? :)

500N
3rd Oct 2013, 06:52
OneTrack

Well, what are you sitting at the computer for ????????

Go and find it, if you don't want to, tell someone else and let them find it :ok:


IMHO, It is very hard to bury something in the ground without
it looking somewhat different even many years afterwards IF
someone happens to stumble across it and know something has
been buried.

Just an observation of things over 30 or so years of being out
bush and seeing where things have been buried and not just
bodies.

chuks
3rd Oct 2013, 08:42
A local German crim got out after a spell spent away, for bank robbery. The cops kept an eye on him once he had been freed, and guess what? Yes, he went skulking off to dig up the rest of his loot, first chance he saw.

They caught him red-handed, plus it was a load of soggy and rotting old D-Marks, not the modern euro notes, so that he would have had a very tough time getting anything to spend out of his haul.

Now he's back behind schwedische Gardinen (Swedish curtains, steel bars), working on a stripey suntan. There must be a message in that somewhere.

Worrals in the wilds
3rd Oct 2013, 12:50
Abbott was robbing banks back when Australia still used paper money, which would cause comment if produced in large quantities today. Even without that problem the old paper notes used to go mouldy when buried (apparently :suspect:) unlike the modern Australian polymer bank notes that can even withstand inadvertent machine washing in a forgotten pocket :cool:.

Like one track I also know someone whose working life was ruined by the violent bastard :mad:, so my sympathy level is sitting well below zero :bored:.

ettore
3rd Oct 2013, 23:37
OK, folks, let me tell you now a sweet cute have-a-sweet night truely candid story.

I was around 10, doing my job as a school boy, i.e. waking up early every morning to walk to school (and doze quietly for the rest of the day).

On one morning, on my way to school, I found a plastic bag.

And in the plastic bag, there was a camera. A pocket one, I could easily steal without drawing much attention.

I brought it on my own to the police station and went, as a 10-year-old, through all the paperwork and hassle a bored policeman may be able of to deal with a "non-event" brought forward by a "non-citizen" (a child).

Some weeks later, as I came back from school, I found my mother together with another lady, an elderly one, sitting on our soda. She told me she was the widow of the camera owner. On that very camera the police gave her back were the very last pictures of her husband and her.

At that time, I didn't get her story quite right. Didn't get the meaning. I was just starring at the one hundred banknote she held in the hand, which she eventually gave to me. I never had such a banknote in my hand before.

Years, yes, many years after, but way too soon anyway, I did understand the meaning of that very camera and of its very last pictures.

No gem, even in a child eye, will ever erase the meaning of a tribute to a lost soul. Sorry about that.

500N
3rd Oct 2013, 23:42
Worrals - or others from Aus

Is the Paper money still valid currency ?

If taken to a bank ?

Worrals in the wilds
3rd Oct 2013, 23:48
Yes, though shops are not obliged to accept them. Apparently the old predecimal currency can also be exchanged at the Reserve Bank.
RBA Banknotes: Redemption of Old Australian Banknotes (http://banknotes.rba.gov.au/redeemingoldnotes.html)

I imagine that the police may get a bit interested if you turned up with a large quantity of them.

500N
3rd Oct 2013, 23:50
Thanks. I tried to look it up as well.

I reckon if you presented it at a retail store they would look at you
a bit funny as most would not have seen them.

Worrals in the wilds
3rd Oct 2013, 23:53
Exactly. :eek:
The earlier 'Commonwealth of Australia' series of banknotes were quite collectable even in the 1980s, so I imagine that these days they'd be worth far more than their face value as banknotes. Likewise the first edition round 50c piece.

500N
3rd Oct 2013, 23:57
I know I have a $1 notes somewhere, in a book.
Just don't know which book :O

I think my old Ford Escort or Holden Gemini still has the
emergency $20 note taped under the dashboard :rolleyes:
They have probably been scrapped by now.

JammedStab
5th Oct 2013, 09:34
For those of you who would want to keep the money, if you are willing to work hard at it, there is more than 300 million dollars in missing diamonds from the Swissair 111 crash a mile off the coast of Nova Scotia. All waiting for a lucky finder in a stainless steel crashproof tube.

The Mystery Of Swissair Flight 111's Diamond Cargo (http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2011/09/16/the-mystery-of-swissair-flight-111-diamond-cargo_n_967111.html)

Airborne Aircrew
5th Oct 2013, 12:11
All waiting for a lucky finder in a stainless steel crashproof tube.

Who says they are still there? :E

lomapaseo
5th Oct 2013, 14:23
if you are willing to work hard at it, there is more than 300 million dollars in missing diamonds from the Swissair 111 crash a mile off the coast of Nova Scotia. All waiting for a lucky finder in a stainless steel crashproof tube.


No need for the tube, Diamonds Are Forever

Rumors of diamonds seem to follow several crashes including Pan Am Lockerbie. No surprise that somebody is carrying a pouch of diamonds between vendors. Next they'll be searching body cavities for drugs (ugh)

RatherBeFlying
6th Oct 2013, 17:04
Having been out to Peggy's Cove close to the Swissair crash, the geology looks like granite shield to me -- likely the same underwater. There's lots of crevices. Also a low friction object would slide downhill and downcurrent until encountering a low spot.

The container would likely not be prominently marked; but would have a good lock on it. So a diver finding it underwater would likely take it as just another object for the recovery.

But if there was any air in the container, the currents would take it a considerable ways while the air slowly leaked out. It could be carried by the Gulf Stream quite a ways depending on the quality of the seals.

Maybe it got caught in the shoals surrounding Sable Island.