Pilot suffers cardiac arrest in flight

[cattlerepairman]

Apologies if this has been covered here already. I searched but did not find it. Austrian newssite (news.ORF.at (http://www.orf.at)) reported United Airlines Flight 1603 (737) en route from Houston to Seattle diverted to Boise, Idaho after one of the pilots suffered a cardiac arrest. CPR performed by two physicians travelling on the plane. Negative final outcome, it appears. Very sad and unfortunate.
CBS has something now, too: Pilot suffers heart attack in mid air, plane diverts to Boise - CBS 5 - KPHO (http://www.kpho.com/story/23544445/pilot-suffers-heart-attack-in-mid-air-plane-diverts-to-boise)

[EEngr]

I heard it this morning on the TV news (in Seattle). One of the passengers interviewed said they got down to Boise pretty fast (20 minutes) after the incident began.

What is the policy of airlines carrying AEDs (automated defibrillators) onboard?

[CanadianAirbusPilot]

Copied and pasted from another news outlet..

Passenger Ken Martin says a woman sitting next to him volunteered to help perform CPR because she is a first year resident doctor. She told Martin the pilot was a heavy man, weighing more than 300 pounds, and they had to move him out of the cockpit and into the first class cabin to perform CPR.

Perhaps with some pilots electing to fly past 60 and others "obese" perhaps it's time the likes of FAA, TC, JAA actually take these medicals seriously... A 300 lbs pilot should not be at control of an airplane in my mind. Give them a gym membership and a few months off, get below a threshold and have the company Docs continue to monitor his condition and progress. Overweight is one thing but 300 lbs (unless he is 8 foot tall) is not good at all.

It is very sad that this gentleman had to lose his life over it, and I know not everyone is into fitness and proper diet with the same interest as others but there really should be a minimum acceptable level and once surpassed you have to get yourself back to that minimum healthy (ish) standard in order to fly... With the sedentary lifestyle that pilots are at risk of falling into I think everyone should do a better job from us as pilots, to our unions/pilot associations and the companies in order to promote better health.

[flyboyike]

Some guys take the Age 65 Fly 'til you die approach a little too seriously.

[MPH]

The assumption that because he, was overweight, gave him a heart attack is nonsense. In the past 35-45 year old pilots have had attacks and in a more or less a fit conditions. You can come out of a medical, walk up some stairs and have a stroke. Not very usual but, it can happen and has in the past. At the moment of your medical and if deemed fit, pass all the checks, you are legally ok to fly. In this case, 300lbs. seems a bit on the heavy side but, there again, how tall, fit etc. was this individual? In any case sad and terrible for his family, friends and colleagues.

[cavortingcheetah]

In contrast, Arnold Schwarzenegger, at his heaviest back in 1974' weighed in at around 245lbs.

[CaptainProp]

It's not like we didn't already know this but just in case....

Obesity has a major impact on cardiovascular diseases such as heart failure (HF), coronary heart disease (CHD), sudden cardiac death, and atrial fibrillation, and is associated with reduced overall survival

Quote from a paper called "Obesity and Cardiovascular DiseaseRisk Factor, Paradox, and Impact of Weight Loss" from JACC Journals.

Still a very sad story for the involved people and family.

[Una Due Tfc]

If you guys start going after the heavier folks, you will have to go after the smokers too

[AdamFrisch]

This is exactly why they should get rid of the medical requirements completely. They can't predict it even in the most stringent class - the class 1 medical holders!

[JAKL]

It is unfortunate, maybe a pilot that was lighter and easier to get out of the cockpit would have stood a better chance with CPR being administered sooner.

[MarcK]

Sudden cardiac death is the most common and often the first manifestation of coronary heart disease and is responsible for ≈50% of the mortality from cardiovascular disease in the United States and other developed countries.
In other words: in 50% of the cases of coronary heart disease, the first symptom is sudden death.

[doubleu-anker]

Adam

Correct. An ECG can detect heart irregularities, etc. It cannot predict HF. You can pass an ECG at a class 1 medical and drop dead an hour later.


Una

I don't think smokers should be allowed near an aircraft. They not only have physiological issues, they have psychological issues also. If they don't take their own well being seriously, then how the hell can I expect them to have a passengers' well being in mind. Addicts should be treated and cured before being allowed to have a class 1.

[Teldorserious]

Well this coming from the airline that didn't hire a former space shuttle commander(too much of an ego) but packed the cockpits with all the affirmative action 200 hrs they could find off the bottom of the resume pile.

It's criminally unproffessional and irresponsible to have obese pilots in the cockpit. Not only is it a statement on the pilot who was unhealthy, possibly in denial about his health problems, an addiction to food, but an organization that supports stuffing anyone into the cockpit that will play ball and fit their socially engineered concept of 'getting along'.

[Airbubba]

Well this coming from the airline that didn't hire a former space shuttle commander(too much of an ego) but packed the cockpits with all the affirmative action 200 hrs they could find off the bottom of the resume pile.

Well, he does have an ego but at least he went to a profitable airline and avoided bankrupt UAL. And, as Walt Whitman, Dizzy Dean, George Jones and others have observed, 'if you done it, it ain't bragging'. ;)

See: The Man Who?s Flown Everything | Flight Today | Air & Space Magazine (http://www.airspacemag.com/flight-today/The-Man-Whos-Flown-Everything.html)

[FLCH]

Well this coming from the airline that didn't hire a former space shuttle commander(too much of an ego) but packed the cockpits with all the affirmative action 200 hrs they could find off the bottom of the resume pile.



Well he was former Continental, an Air Force guy close to retirement, does that make it clearer for you ?

Awesome job on the assumptions !

[Lone_Ranger]

Una

I don't think smokers should be allowed near an aircraft. They not only have physiological issues, they have psychological issues also. If they don't take their own well being seriously, then how the hell can I expect them to have a passengers' well being in mind. Addicts should be treated and cured before being allowed to have a class 1

Exactly the same logic applies to the Obese, of course

[Huck]

Local news is reporting he was 63.

I'll get my popcorn....

[parabellum]

Yup, you may as well Huck, they will be along soon!

Being aviation it is high profile and got appropriate publicity because it happened 'in the saddle', what got a lot less publicity was the legacy carrier SFO who, on the same day, at the age of forty two, dropped dead on the golf course! (also cardiac arrest).

[Not Hiding]

This from the great journalistic site, "Huffington Post:"

The captain was piloting United Flight 1603 from Houston to Seattle when the emergency occurred Thursday forcing an off-duty pilot to take over control of the plane.

Yeah, right.

[aterpster]

AdamFrisch:

This is exactly why they should get rid of the medical requirements completely. They can't predict it even in the most stringent class - the class 1 medical holders!

It can be predicted but not with a resting EKG.

A stress EKG on this poor chap would have undoubtedly found him in the cath lab having an angiogram. Not much doubt remaining when it's done right.

[J.O.]

The assumptions and inappropriate statements in this thread are unbecoming of any human being and completely unacceptable from this poor man's colleagues. We have no idea of his lot in life and the 300 lb comment came from an unconfirmed source, making it specious at best and unworthy of consideration at this early stage. As for his age, people should remember that a good portion of the airline pilot population in the US had their pensions decimated in the post 9/11 meltdown. He may have had no choice and if so, he was not alone.

FFS people have some compassion. Often in times like these, family members will look to the internet to see what's been said. How would you like it if your family was reading such insensitive things about YOU!

[bubbers44]

I am sure the FO would have handled the landing just fine because he had experience. Not so sure about the 200 hr wonders. Having a qualified pilot in back non reving was a nice advantage but I am sure he would have been fine.

[Murexway]

With all the speculation about obesity, other than a single post (unless I missed one) do we have any confirmation of his weight?

[mikedreamer787]

According to what I've heard from various sources
300lbs appears to be correct.

Slightly off topic but in Japan the highest permitted
BMI by JCAB is 30. I used to laugh it off as being
far too conservative but lately I think they're pretty
much on the mark. Over the 30 is definitely risky if
visceral fat is also taken into consideration.

[flarepilot]

boy...some great thoughts..>NOT

Jim Fixx, the author of the book on running was in great health and died at 40 of cardiac arrest or something like it

[aterpster]

mikedreamer:


Slightly off topic but in Japan the highest permitted
BMI by JCAB is 30. I used to laugh it off as being
far too conservative but lately I think they're pretty
much on the mark. Over the 30 is definitely risky if
visceral fat is also taken into consideration.

Really not off topic at all.

If it weren't for ALPA and the cheap airline companies, BMI would be a big deal, as it should be.

[PA-28-180]

" Jim Fixx, the author of the book on running was in great health and died at 40 of cardiac arrest or something like it "

Actually, if I remember correctly, the reason Jim Fixx began runnng is that early cardiac death was very prevelant in his family. Though he still passed away at a young age, he lived longer than his father and other relatives did.

[Teldorserious]

Well I agree that big fat smokers and 150hr captains shouldn't just be allowed to fly planes, we should screen for them!

I mean as long as we are hiring off the bottom of the resume pile, lets see if we can really scrape the bottom of the barrel. Lets get some handicapped people in there...more people on meds, since that's ok now, and why not someone with epilepsy...how about a former Guantano prisoner? Fully reformed I am sure. We can lower the age from 23 as well down to say 16? I mean if they can drive a car...why not an Airbus!

[mikedreamer787]

Aterpster - I have to admit I was always nudging
28 until the wife said unless I lost weight there're
gonna be some... things... she won't do anymore.

Suffice to say I went on a rabbit food diet and
went to a BMI of 25 in a matter of weeks! :}

[tcufroggie]

Had that happen to me on an AA flight DFW-DCA a few years back. FO had the attack as soon as we hit level flight and we dropped like a stone to get into Kansas City. Capt said FO was able to man comms until the final approach. Made for a real sporty ride in an MD-80 dropping from 32k' to WOW in less than 15 minutes tops!

We were in first row that biz class that flight so I got a chance to chat with Capt as we waited on the deck for the relief crew to land and take us on to DCA. He said the saving grace was that this was this guys 3rd or 4th attack so he knew the early signs and allowed them to declare emergency and begin decent before it got too far. (So my next question is why a guy with prev heart attacks was behind the sticks and not manning the sims or the flight manual desk!)

[400drvr]

Firstly lets try to remember that this man most likely had a family that loved him and will miss him terribly. Can we stop the personal attacks until maybe he is in his grave.

For the rest of us who are lucky enough to still be with the living maybe we should look at our own health and life style choices before we judge some one we never knew.

Take a look at the you tube video forks over knives.:=

[FlyMD]

Occasionally, a pilot will die in the cockpit, that's why we need 2 qualified and trained pilots in front. Get over it.

I started aviation as a 200-hour ab initio in a 150-pax airliner: difference with today was that I got a proper line training (150 hours with a safety pilot!), and my trainers made damn sure I knew how to get the plane safely to the ground on my own before even thinking about releasing me for normal ops.

Don't expect pilots to be fit like astronauts if you're going to pay them like gas-station attendants. Also don't expect them to retire at 60: they can't afford it!

So the way to safety is to make sure at least 1 trained and reasonably rested pilot remains in an airliner if his colleague dies.

As for not letting smokers near an airplane: bollocks. OTOH, i feel the same about people who believe God is their co-pilot, so who am I to judge )))

[vilas]

ECG while resting is not a garuntee of good health. Stress ECG whie on trade mil is a good indicator of cardio vascular conditions. Internal inflamation is now recognised as major factor for heart attack. C reactive protine is an indicator of that. Some other biochemical tests like Cholestarol, triglycerides, GTT also non invasive MRI is now available for the heart. Age alone is not a factor. Anyone beyond 45 years life style and general fitness plays a large part in longivity. Exceptions will always be thhere. Those are not the criteria. Indian medical requires lot many tests beyond 60 years.

[Fokker_A_Hunnert]

I did a little Internet search tonight and found that just since the U.S adopted the age 65 restriction for Part 121, two doctors performing surgery (one was doing heart surgery and the other was doing brain surgery) had heart attacks. But I don't see the same hue-and-cry about that.

[Trim Stab]

What a load of pious . I'm not a smoker, but I utterly despise the modern phenomenon where people seem to think that they have the right (nay, duty) to lecture grown adults on what they can and cannot put into their body. What the hell does it have to do with you or anyone else if a pilot chooses to smoke? As long as they can pass the class 1 medical, smokers have as much right to be in the cockpit as anyone else. The same goes for obese people (I'm not one of them either, as it happens).

People can smoke if they wish, but I don't think they should be allowed a Class 1 medical. Smoking increases risk of cardiac arrest, and reduces time to LOC in a decompression.

[ExSp33db1rd]

As for not letting smokers near an airplane: bollocks.When I started flying............. I would occasionally be working in the Nav. seat at the back of the flight deck behind two PIPE smoking pilots, it was IFR INSIDE the aircraft.

Fortunately I could lift the curtains that blocked the nav desk light for night flying, and wear an oxygen mask. Made it a bit difficult to use the sextant tho' so occasionally I had to take a deep breath for each 2 minute star shot.

I renewed my Class 1 at the ripe old age of 75 ( not for commercial pax carrying ops. I might add ) but then, for no reason other than age, the CAA insisted that I take a treadmill ECG. The Cardio. expressed concern that I might be driving home, and 2 weeks later I was the proud possessor of 2 arterial stents.

What p***es me off tho' is that for maybe a full 6 months before presenting myself for a Class 1 renewal again, I could have legally flown a 747 - from a medical point of view - with the undiagnosed problem that ultimately resulted in my two stents, but a problem was detected, fixed, and now I'm physically better than I was in that preceeding 6 months, but they won't even allow me a Class 2.

I've beaten the buggers tho', they can't get their sticky fingers on my microlight ticket, that's a different protocol.

Mustn't grumble, they probably saved my life, but what is of real concern is that only because I wanted to continue flying was my problem even detected - how many of those cars hurtling towards you on the other side of the road, at a closing speed in excess of 120 mph, are being driven by guys who have NEVER seen a doctor ?

[flarepilot]

I've seen some terrible posts here. Just awful.

I read that a 51 year old DC10 captain had a heart attack on landing rollout, the copilot had to take the plane.

age 51.

people talking about weight factors have not fully researched other problems too.

how about use of drugs, I mean ILLEGAL drugs like pot or cocaine? shall we ban pilots who have ever used these? I'm for that. Let's also ban people from running for the US presidency who smoke, or have used drugs....fine with me.

as to age...;my copilot, age 28 fell asleep in cruise...during his probation year. He can be fired for that...age 28.


I truly believe there should be no upper age limit for pilots...just individual health.

And NO one can truly predict a heart attack...while there are indicators, and more coming each year, no one can predict it with 100 percent certainty.

I would think taking an aspirin daily should be considered by many...sitting from other things...I recall a very slender, wealthy medium age man just walking the streets of New York just keeled over(cardiac arrest)...that man directed and wrote many famous films including, "PLANES,Trains and automobiles"

healthy practices for sure...but the sadness of so many of these posts is disturbing, esp from flyboyike.

we should and must retain at LEAST 2 qualified pilots in the cockpit in case one gets sick. I even know of one case in which a pregnant captain ended up in great distress due to her pregnancy...she was flying on the day before her grounding date due to pregnancy was to happen

[flyboyike]

healthy practices for sure...but the sadness of so many of these posts is disturbing, esp from flyboyike.



Actually, I agree with you. It's sad that people become so desperately dependent on this job that they would rather literally die doing it than consider any kind of an alternative. Capt Skillern clearly had some pretty serious health issues that he likely could have done more to address had he not been busy flying that one more trip. Then another. Then another. Just to make that extra few bucks. Really sad state of affairs we're in.

He lived (or at least crashpadded) in Humble, TX outside of Houston. He died in Boise. His loved ones didn't get to say good-bye to him. What they did get was that terrible phone call. I bet his family would have gladly traded whatever he made in these past three years just to see him again.

At the end of the day, it's really a matter of priorities, isn't it? Do you want to be a big (in this case literally), bad Airline Captain until they carry you out feet first or do you want to be a human being at some point? The fact that so many people seem to choose the former is indeed very sad.

[misd-agin]

FlyMD-Occasionally, a pilot will die in the cockpit, that's why we need 2 qualified and trained pilots in front. Get over it.

I started aviation as a 200-hour ab initio in a 150-pax airliner: difference with today was that I got a proper line training (150 hours with a safety pilot!), and my trainers made damn sure I knew how to get the plane safely to the ground on my own before even thinking about releasing me for normal ops.



That's the problem...what if your safety pilot had a fatal heart attack? Suddenly the wisdom of using very low time pilots, with no real life experience beyond the training environment, is suspect.

[FlyMD]

misd-again: by safety pilot, we mean a THIRD pilot in the cockpit. That would have meant 2 heart-attacks before I was left alone at controls, and this for 150 hours after having successfully passed an transition course and spent a full day shooting landings with an empty MD80.

But that's precisely the rub, you see: proper training costs money, and that's precisely what's not being spent anymore. There is no problem with properly trained ab-initio pilots. The operative words here are "properly" and "trained".

The point of my post was that a single fatality on the flight deck will happen from time to time, no matter how high you might want to set the bar for a class 1 medical, or how low the mandatory retirement age.

The essential safety factor is having 2 rested and trained people on each flight deck. No point in re-starting the tired old discussion about ab-initio cadets vs. "experienced" first officers, the two sides having shown many times in these fora that no meeting of the minds is possible..

[donpizmeov2]

the solution of this problem is the remove completely the pilots for the cockpit ... :suspect:

[Teldorserious]

Flare and fly - I tend to hold your position that some of these guys get settled in, no body cares how fat or sick they are, and these guys will do anything to keep their jobs.

My own experience has seen the following -

A guy that flew across the country for his medical, to go to one specific doctor...this is a guy that couldn't fly in a cabin above 6ft and resulting in him flying at stupid low levels, burning way to much fuel, and flying on fumes many times.

A guy that never got a first class med because 'sending the EKG data to the FAA many times are a mistake'..so you have an overweight 65 year old guy, with high blood pressure, running on a 2nd class, probably taking something prior to the medical to game his medical into the proper territory.

This is all about holding standards. You either care about the passengers, safety, and professionalism, or you don't, where it's just a paycheck, a title, an easy job, or whatever.

Whatever the case, 300 lb pilots shouldn't be flying planes.

[flarepilot]

I know plenty of fine pilots who are a bit overweight and they pass their medicals with no problem

if you want supermen flying the plane, fine...use US NAVY and Air Force requirements

no glasses

nothing wrong

perfect everything

and some of you 38 year olds won't pass

I just read of a student athlete who died at practice, even having done an ekg...cardiac arrest

have a checkup before you fly...no cold, no nothing perfection...no pilots then, no one is perfect

we don't know anything about this guy from official sources

lets wait

[ExSp33db1rd]

.........Just to make that extra few bucks........

How do you know ? (unless something's been said earlier, and I regret I haven't time to read all again ?)

He might have actually enjoyed his work - I certainly did and would willingly have gone on to 65 if that had been the rule then, and as the wife of one of my colleagues remarked - " I married him for better or worse, not breakfast, lunch AND bloody dinner ! "

[flarepilot]

few extra bucks

...many pilots would have retired earlier than 60, let alone 65 IF THEIR PENSIONS HAD REMAINED INTACT

9/11 destroyed many airlines and bankruptcy courts allowed termination of pension plans

many of my friends should have retired at 132k per year, plus health, travel etc.

but now, the going rate is 45k...the pension guaranty boys won't pay full pensions.


so...won't you get rid of old farts by paying the pensions they should have had??????????????

[J.O.]

Let's also not forget that this man could have been with his family when he died had he exited the industry gracefully. Instead he died in a hospital in Boise. I sure hope those extra three years were worth it.

For all you know, this man had no choice thanks to the theft of his hard-earned pension in the name of "shareholder value". Just remember that some day, you too will be the old fart in the left seat that some young twerp looks at thinking "You're sitting in my chair". :rolleyes:

[Offchocks]

I was wondering about medicals in different countries and if they are the same as ours. We have this method of scoring you points on your 40th birthday and subsequently every five years there after, then every year after 60.

If you score over 14 points you require a stress ECG (EKG). The points are allocated starting with gender and age, the points increase as you get older. The rest are to do with BP, total cholesterol, HDL cholesterol, smoking and diabetes. At 62 a male starts with 15 points and so unless the other markers are excellent, then it is a stress ECG (EKG) for you.

Does your medical system have something similar?

[parabellum]

If it weren't for ALPA and the cheap airline companies, BMI would be a big deal, as it should be.

When I was 37 years old I weighed 173lbs and was 5'8" tall, according to the BMI table I am 'overweight'. Spoke to two respected AMEs who said far from overweight I should consider eating a bit more as there was not an ounce of fat on me - their opinion of the BMI scale was that it was fatally flawed, having come from Japan and Asian body build is totally different to Caucasian build so for the tables to have any relevance at all they would need to be carefully factored. I wonder if this has ever been done?

[framer]

BMI is a waste of time. I work with a shortish guy who goes to the gym four days a week and concentrates on strength, as a result he is very broad and very heavy. He would not fare well on the BmI test. I imagine he would fail yet he is very health conscious.

[aterpster]

framer:

BMI is a waste of time. I work with a shortish guy who goes to the gym four days a week and concentrates on strength, as a result he is very broad and very heavy. He would not fare well on the BmI test. I imagine he would fail yet he is very health conscious.

I brought up BMI as one indicator. I said nothing about, by itself, being a pass or fail indicator.

[JimNtexas]

Does your medical system have something similar?

I'm not a professional pilot, but after I had a low speed motorcycle accident the FAA required for my Class 3 (private pilot) physical a full cardio workup (stress test, 24 hour ekg, ultrasound movie of my heart) because they were afraid the accident might have been caused by some kind of cardiac event.

I'm 61, bmi of 27.

Edited to add: I was upset about this at the time, but when I passed with flying colors I felt better about it. The heart doctor told me that the FAA stress test is the most 'stressful' one that he gives. He told me a lot of truck drivers come in for the same test, but their test isn't as 'stressful'.

[Capt Claret]

A stress EKG on this poor chap would have undoubtedly found him in the cath lab having an angiogram.

If he was 300 lb I'd and over 60 I'd be surprised if he didn't have to undergo a routine stress ECG. I weigh 100 lb less than that and am less than 60 years but due to a combo of BMI, cholesterol & blood pressure have had to undergo a stress ecg for licence medical renewal twice in recent years.

The standard or requirements in Aus could be different to the US but I'd be surprised if they're that different.

[Offchocks]

Capt Caret I don't think BMI contributes to the requirement for a stress ECG, unless there is something else that triggered it and CASA became "interested".
I just turned 62, I guess I am about the same weight as you and have done my first stress ECG, the age points got me as everything else was normal. To be honest it was a piece of cake, the only thing that was stressful was the the name "Stress ECG".

[tdracer]

Fox News has a picture of the pilot - he was definitely a big guy, but didn't appear to be 'fat' - overweight perhaps but not 'fat'.

There is a big difference between 300 lbs. on a 6' 6" frame - especially if it's an active person, and 300 lbs. on a 5' 6" couch potato.

I'm not a fitness freak, but I've exercised regularly 4 to 5 times a week since my early 20's. Yet I had a heart attack 15 years ago - I was 42 at the time. My lower center cardiac artery was completely blocked (I was apparently really lucky - a physicians assistant buddy told me they call that "The Widow Maker" - it's usually fatal). I wasn't overweight, didn't smoke (it was almost funny - in the hospital they just assumed I was a smoker - an apparently fit guy having a heart attack at 42. When asked how much I smoked I said I didn't, nurse asked when I quit and I said I never started - the nurse just looked at me funny like I must be lying).
Angioplasty and a stint, back at work a week later with a newfound respect for modern medicine. A week after that I did a stress test and the cardiologist pronounced my heart just fine.

Due to an international assignment, between Boeing and my person doctor I'd had 5 physicals over the previous 4 years - none had noted anything abnormal with my heart.

Sometimes :mad: just happens. :sad:

[ExSp33db1rd]

The colleagues I knew who were fitness freaks in their youth, i.e. 10 BX, jogging and the like when they were invented, all died young of heart failure.

One lost his licence for awhile because he had something called an inverted T wave on his ECG, and 'til it was discovered that this is the mark of super, Olympic standard, athletes he was grounded. He got his licence back eventually and is still alive, tho' the Cardio reading the subject ECG was almost ready to call the undertaker.

A recent NZ CAA Medic.,young, female, ( fact, not bigotry ) and recently out of University and big in computer analysis programmes, decided that no-one should be allowed to fly if they had more than a 5% chance of having a heart problem in the next 5 years. For awhile this became known as the 1% rule, i.e. 5% in 5 years = 1% in 1 year. Jeez .... everybody walking around has at least a 1% chance, and this just about grounded every pilot in NZ, including Air New Zealand airline. Fortunately sense prevailed - eventually. Said female no longer works for the NZ CAA.

A Flt.Eng. once told me that the medical profession change their minds every 5 years or so, and when they decided that sitting on the couch drinking beer and eating potato crisps ( chips ) was the way to go, he was way ahead of them. When we reached our destination I asked him what he was going to do for the rest of the day ? Go to the bar first and then practice some IFR, he said. IFR ? Yes, climb to and maintain 3 feet, horizontal.

He's still alive.

I had a friend who was a dietician, and her hospital had a 3 year old child brought in for care and attention following a marital upset. The child wouldn't eat anything,and after awhile the staff got concerned and asked the father - who had custody - what he had been feeding his son? The father explained that when his wife had walked out, he had no option but to take the child with him to work - as a long distance lorry driver, and when he stopped at truck stops for a meal he gave the child the same fare - Guinness and Fish & Chips.

Shock horror !! You can't feed a child on that, they said, but in view of the lack of appetite displayed, they want out and bought an order of Fish and Chips and a bottle of Guinness. The childs' eyes lit up and he tucked into this first meal for a long time with gusto.

Then the lab. got to analysing the food, and decided that the child had had a balanced diet - iron in the Guinness, vitamin C in the fried fish, bulk stuff in the French Fried chips etc. etc. and certainly he wasn't seriously undernourished.

Way to go !

[doubleu-anker]

I remember reading years ago, an interview with one of the Apollo astronauts. He was asked if he did much exercise. He replied along the lines of.
"I was born with a given amount of heart beats. I am damned if I am going to waste any working out in a gym". :}

I am also aware of someone who was a physical fitness fanatic and extremely fit. At 40 he had a triple bypass.

[beamender99]

I think that the BMI " one size fits all" in the UK if flawed.
Many years ago it was more sensible. My GP had three tables for BMI.
He measured my wrist and then selected the appropriate table to give me my BMI reading.

The wrist reading was a good indicator of bone structure.
I know I could do with loosing some weight but the present UK BMI test gives a much more favourable result . Why? I have small hands, feet, wrists plus thin arms so the BMI test ignores all these and boosts my " good" scoring.

[BBK]

Two colleagues of mine have had heart attacks in recent years. Thankfully they both survived and are lucky to have been treated quickly. One of them mentioned the "widow maker artery" and he was VERY lucky. Now their doctors have said they are as fit as ever. Neither of them, IMHO, looked remotely obese and both looked after themselves.

My understanding of the pilot medical is that it is largely a snap shot. It does not mean that the AME will be able to detect an undiagnosed condition similar to those experienced by my colleagues.

As far as the comments regarding the particular pilot involved in this particular incident I think a little respect for this unfortunate chap is in order. Some of the comments are very insulting and irrelevant to the thread.

[FullWings]

It's sad news but given the amount of pilots in the air around the globe at any one time, statistically it's going to happen with a certain regularity.

As others have pointed out, some things can be screened for or the risks reduced by a particular lifestyle but some are beyond present predictive science. It's why we have redundancy in the crew over a certain size of aircraft as well as redundancy in the systems.

The 'plane was put safely on the ground, unfortunately one of the pilots didn't make it. From the passengers point-of-view, that worked.

There are many things that can seriously affect your performance to the point that you might as well be dead, like food poisoning, allergic reactions, appendicitis, etc. They can happen to anyone of any age or level of fitness. Changing medical requirements is not going improve anything for this group, which probably accounts for the vast majority of in-flight incapacitations.

[Uplinker]

All fair comments. However; Being obese is a very real health issue, and it is totally preventable.

A doctor friend of mine said that fat on the belly has a very poor prognosis. As fat builds up around the body, it also builds up inside the blood vessels. This can cause many problems such as heart failure, stroke and organ failure. Why would anyone risk doing that much damage to themselves?

A pilot is required to have a certain (good) level of fitness so that the chances of their body failing is low. It is not an exact science yet - genetics are involved, and a thin person is not immune from cardiac arrest - but being obese can definitely cause one.

Day to day flying is relatively low stress, but when problems occur such as EFATO, rapid depressurisation, diversion on low fuel, etc. the stress increases rapidly. If one is fit, then stress can be endured, but if one is unfit, one's stress threshold is much lower.

(Mr Swarzenegger had a heart valve operation some years ago, so a body weight of 245 lbs might have been too much for him?)

The BMI system is not a perfect measure of a persons fitness - it doesn't take the percentage of body fat and muscle into account, but it is a good starting point.

What I don't understand is how these folk get through their Class 1's - we are all weighed as part of our medicals.

[donpizmeov2]

What I don't understand is how these folk get through their Class 1's - we are all weighed as part of our medicals.

Because the FAA first class medical is a 150$ joke ... and the FAA when they raised the age till 65 they could have put in place a more realistic system the check pilots!

[flyboyike]

For all you know, this man had no choice thanks to the theft of his hard-earned pension in the name of "shareholder value". Just remember that some day, you too will be the old fart in the left seat that some young twerp looks at thinking "You're sitting in my chair". :rolleyes:



I'm told the gentleman in question had his pension frozen, not stolen. Additionally, he had a full Air Force retirement as well. Thus, I don't think this was an issue of "having no choice" (a bogus argument anyway, there's always a choice).

My bigger point is this: what amount of "recovered pension" is worth ending up on a slab in a morgue in Boise, ID?

[FERetd]

Quite a lot has been said about this unfortunate person.

Why was he still flying?
Why didn't he retire?
Didn't he have enough money?
His pension was stolen.
His pension was frozen.
etc. etc.

Perhaps he just enjoyed his work. Lucky fellow!

[ExSp33db1rd]

Perhaps he just enjoyed his work. Lucky fellow!

Absolutely.

Ours not to question why.

[skol]

I was taken to hospital about 3 years ago with a suspected heart attack. An angiogram was carried out and they found my heart to be in near perfect condition.

It took me 9 weeks to get my medical back, even though multiple tests proved there was nothing wrong, but something that did come to my attention during this period of non-flying was that there are plenty of pilots out there with medical problems but they're not telling anyone, because the civil servants make your life hell and it's outrageously expensive trying to regain your medical.

[RatherBeFlying]

Line pilots have been dying in the cockpit almost since when commercial aviation began.

The operative concern is the statistical risk x the risk the other pilot will not remain capable until landing. Food poisoning is the more serious concern as that can take out both crew.

A salad bar item prepared by somebody with improperly washed hands could do the job. EC O157:H7 takes less than 10 organisms to produce an serious infection.

[galaxy flyer]

Capt Claret,

Unless a FAA-licensed pilot has a cardiac event, I know of no requirement for a stress EKG. Heck, they don't screen for BMI, blood work-up, either.

[dubbleyew eight]

can I just throw in what may be a red herring.

a cardiac (heart) arrest (stoppage) isnt caused by "failure" of the heart. it is caused by a blood clot obstructing the blood supply and leading to death of the muscle tissue through oxygen starvation.

your blood (yeah you as well, you young smartarses) will clot for a number of reasons. one being stasis. if your blood stops moving in a vein the cascade of chemical reactions that leads to clotting can be initiated. sit still for a long period with a little more pressure in some part of the body (typically for pilots, the myth of sitting on your fat wallet :-) ) can cause stasis in a vein.
being a little dehydrated helps the clotting cascade on as well.

you young guys can be as smug as you like. in reality you have just as much opportunity to become a topic of ridicule on pprune as this guy has.

take care out there, it's the real world.:E

[StatorVane]

Having worked in a medical environment before coming in to aviation (and a little bit during my flight training) and having read this thread with interest I will say that the reply immediately prior to mine, by dubbleyew eight hits the nail on the head. The chap in question appears to have suffered a myocardial infarction [edit: actually I should say probably has suffered an MI]

Blood has a propensity to clot particularly when not flowing correctly. A heart condition itself may cause that - such as atrial fibrillation - and an AF patient knows, or should know, he or she is more at risk of stroke, for example, as the irregular rhythm can "throw up" clots. AF of course would (or at least should) be detected or indicated by ECG and then other verifications.

The other reasons for an obstruction are, as dubbleyew eight has said, attributed to factors which reduce or impede blood flow - long period of inactivity being one, narrowing arteries another. Some people have a natural or inherited tendency to what is sometimes called "sticky" blood and as such are placed on blood thinning medication such as warfarin or heparin (other blood thinning drugs are available).

For the heart to arrest then there is almost always and external reason for it doing so. Hearts rarely just stop on their own, although it is not impossible and there is usually an external cause. Heart failure as a condition is different to a heart attack. A patient can live with heart failure as it is a progressive condition. I have seen drug abusers, trauma (accident) patients amongst other suffer cardiac arrest with an otherwise healthy heart.

Finally, there are factors that can be assessed and tests that can performed to indicate your "risk" of suffering a cardiac event including an myocardial infarction and hereditary factors are important too.

And whilst there is much talk here about BMI and keeping fit - all crucial to maintaining good health - there will continue to be otherwise supremely fit people who ace their medicals but then drop a medical time bomb and stun us all.

Disclaimer from me: I do not offer the above text as any form of official or unofficial advice. You should always speak with your treating clinician and if you suffer any of the conditions I refer to above you should discuss the implications with them.

[flyboyike]

Quite a lot has been said about this unfortunate person.

Why was he still flying?
Why didn't he retire?
Didn't he have enough money?
His pension was stolen.
His pension was frozen.
etc. etc.

Perhaps he just enjoyed his work. Lucky fellow!



It's great to enjoy one's work. It's also useful to know when to say when and thus be able to enjoy one's life.

[Murexway]

It's great to enjoy one's work. It's also useful to know when to say when and thus be able to enjoy one's life.How presumptious. Lots of pilots are happier flying than retired. I happily retired at age 58 in excellent health, but I would never presume to tell another pilot how he should live his life.

[flyboyike]

Murexway,

Can we at least agree that nobody is happy on a cot in a morgue?

[tuj]

(Mr Swarzenegger had a heart valve operation some years ago, so a body weight of 245 lbs might have been too much for him?)Mr. Schwarzenegger used anabolic steroids when they were still legal during his body-building days. Also, Schwarzenegger was born with a bicuspid aortic valve, an aortic valve with only two leaflets for which he had surgery in 1997.

The medical establishment has acknowledged major shortcomings of BMI. Because the BMI formula depends only upon weight and height, its assumptions about the distribution between lean mass and adipose tissue are inexact. BMI generally overestimates adiposity on those with more lean body mass (e.g. athletes) and underestimates excess adiposity on those with less lean body mass.

[Desert185]

Quote:
It's great to enjoy one's work. It's also useful to know when to say when and thus be able to enjoy one's life.
How presumptious. Lots of pilots are happier flying than retired. I happily retired at age 58 in excellent health, but I would never presume to tell another pilot how he should live his life.

Exactly. My case in point, I retired from the airlines (happily) in 2007, and was lucky enough to continue with contracting as a pilot afterwards. My desire, not based on income needs. Floss for the brain, you know. :ok:

[Uncle Fred]

Stator and W8 - Good points. Thank you for the intelligent addition the discussion. Perhaps I am not alone in having mistaken a heart attack with a heart failure.

[No Fly Zone]

I hear your concerns, Sir, Loud and clear. That said, events such as this one are exceedingly rare. And, there is always that second pilot available, not just an assistant, but fully qualified to drive the airplane.
Most physical health experts tell us that 'weight alone' is not an indicator of heart disease or a marker for an MI (heart attack). If this gentleman's DME certified him for a First Class medical, one can assume that his exam and labs suggested that he was worthy of his First Class ticket. DMEs and the Medical Branch in OK do n ot screw around with active, but marginal ATP-qualified First Class tickets. I See no reason to ban the 60-65 group without substantial evidence that they are unfit. Let's also remember that the 60-65 extension also requires that the second pilot be under age 60. I think that is enough protection for the flying public. Personally, I'm encouraged and feel safer when I see an 'older' pilot enter the cockpit. Frankly, I'm more concerned about the odd pilot of any age who is mentally unbalanced, as we saw with that fellow from JetBlue a while ago. The DME's examinations are physical, not mental. Short of self-reporting or multiple concerns expressed by flying colleagues, pilot's metal stability is almost never questioned. If any changes are necessary, I 'd suggest that some mental status screening tools be implemented. 'ya know...

[flyboyike]

DMEs and the Medical Branch in OK do n ot screw around with active, but marginal ATP-qualified First Class tickets.


You're kidding, right?

[snakepit]

W8

can I just throw in what may be a red herring.

a cardiac (heart) arrest (stoppage) isnt caused by "failure" of the heart. it is caused by a blood clot obstructing the blood supply and leading to death of the muscle tissue through oxygen starvation.

Not a bad stab at correction but what you have actually described is what is commonly known as a heart attack or Myocardial (heart muscle) Infarction (death) or MI in this case due to O2 starvation. Ultimately, if large enough or sudden enough and not treated this will lead to disruption of the normal sinus rhythm NSR and ventricular fibrillation VF at which point the patient is now actually suffering a cardiac arrest.
Treatment now requires an AED to stop the heart totally and try and allow the sinus rhythm to reset.

[ironbutt57]

Correct the defibrillator shock stops the heart, not starts it....like a quick reset on a computer..hence it's name