BA?

[Threethirty]

Without wishing to sound like a stuck record, has anybody in BA heard of any recent DEP rumours? Last time I asked the same question; a few of you had heard on various SEP days that things might be firing up again in 2014, just wondered if this was a now a serious consideration? Surely the cadet hiring binge can't go on indefinitely?

[binsleepen]

Hi,

The results of the yearly fleet bidding process should be released within the next couple of weeks. Only then will BA know where the slots/gaps will be in the comming year and where recruitment needs to be targeted.

The first cadets, those who started the recruitment process in autumn 2011, start their type ratings in the next 4 weeks or so. All the cadets will be going onto short haul at LHR or LGW. If there is a requirement for any longhaul pilots these will have to come from from outside of the cadet ranks.

Whether there will be such a requirement however, is another question, and I have no idea of the answer.

sorry!

[Threethirty]

Thanks very much. Yes somebody else told me about a system called 'Casandra' which predicts a shortfall on any given fleet. I know two people, however, one on the Trippler and another on the Bus and they're working very hard.

[4468]

I know two people, however, one on the Trippler and another on the Bus and they're working very hard.
That's because it's the way BA want it. They have been granting a great deal of Short Term Unpaid Leave. (the key word being 'unpaid'!) in order to save money. should they wish to increase the number of available pilots, one assumes they will simply cancel this arrangement.

Up to (and including) 2016, out of a workforce of 3700-3800, only twenty six pilots will hit 65. In BA, virtually nobody retires voluntarily before then. Please feel free to draw your own conclusions!

Edited to add: There is an unspoken assumption in the above that 65 remains the compulsory retirement age. That may prove to be a poor assumption. Bear in mind also that the average age of BA's most senior 1000 captains is currently less than 52.

[speedrestriction]

BA, yawn - after jumping through the hoops already I have no interest spending any money to drown in that particular pool. Fool me once.....

[Callsign Kilo]

Unfortunately a few poor sods have had to suffer the indignation of death by drowning twice in the space of 4 years!

BA will have no end of applicants for future DEP positions. I can't see them getting overly excited if previous 'poolers' fail to reapply. There is no guarantee that they'd be invited to assessment, pass said assessment or even find themselves with a position. I see your point I suppose

[PPRuNeUser0204]

Up to (and including) 2016, out of a workforce of 3700-3800, only twenty six pilots will hit 65. In BA, virtually nobody retires voluntarily before then. Please feel free to draw your own conclusions!

I'm trying but what is wrong with your pension if you have to stay on to 65? I'm LoCo and retiring at 60!

[Super Stall]

Errr...Life's pretty good in BA at the top of the list. Nothing to do with the pension.

[OBK!]

Phensocks....in loco...I'd be gone at 55!

[Threethirty]

So are the rumours mentioning 2014 unfounded?

[Jordiejet]

Recruitment is unlikely next year.

2015 at the earliest is my best guess!

[Airclues]

Up to (and including) 2016, out of a workforce of 3700-3800, only twenty six pilots will hit 65.

The retirement age was extended to 65 on 1/10/2006. Therefore the oldest pilot in BA is currently just approaching his/her 62nd birthday (anyone older would have been forced to retire at 55). The relatively small number of retirements in 2016 is because there are only three months left in which people attain 65. In subsequent years the normal retirement rate will resume.

[Ollie Onion]

Until they change the rules again, here in Australia a pilot can now fly as long as he can hold a medical. My Captain last week was 69 and had no intention of retiring anytime soon!

[FlightDick]

Unfortunately the old boys are staying on to the bitter end! I remember flying with the lucky ones who scraped in to the new 65 years of age retirement date with their crystallised final salary pensions saying that they'd only stay on for a couple of years, then it was I'll go at 60, then it was I'll go part time after 60 but as you've guessed the vast majority are still full time (it must be tough living on only 270 G a year!). I have no intention of working beyond 60 so this is now effecting my career. I imagine that they will fight to fly beyond 65 but if they want me to sit next to them then BA better Give me a premium payment as there is a higher chance of grandad popping it! You only have so many heart beats in your life.:hmm:

[NigelOnDraft]

Therefore the oldest pilot in BA is currently just approaching his/her 62nd birthday (anyone older would have been forced to retire at 55). Not 100% accurate IMHO (think Dan Air)

[Airclues]

NOD

Very true, but this must be a very small number (would have to be 55 to 58 on 1/10/06) and they would be included in the figure of 26 retirements.
My point is, that after the retirement hiatus after Oct 2006, the normal retirement rate will resume after 1/10/2016 (unless the age increases again).

[oceancrosser]

I'm trying but what is wrong with your pension if you have to stay on to 65? I'm LoCo and retiring at 60!

Get back to us in 20 years, when you are 57 and we'll see what you say then :ok:

[Private jet]

I sort of look upon airline pilots wanting to carry on to 65 in much the same way as Bruce Forsyth tries to keep going on Strictly come dancing, just keep on clinging on. We all live in our own time. Please don't be greedy and arrogant, but i fear many know nothing else.

[The African Dude]

It must be frustrating to feel that you are being prevented from accessing some opportunities because people are retiring later. Calling people greedy and arrogant because they enjoy their work and wish to continue is questionable though. It is a free market! One can also argue that asking them to retire just so you can have a slightly improved chance of getting their job is rather greedy and arrogant in its own right.

[Mushroom_2]

Quote:
Therefore the oldest pilot in BA is currently just approaching his/her 62nd birthday (anyone older would have been forced to retire at 55).

Not 100% accurate IMHO (think Dan Air)

Think bmi as well

[Aluminium shuffler]

Many pilots simply won't have decent pensions because their companies won't make reasonable arrangements, especially for contractors, and with the current cost of living, many have family commitments that tie up their income preventing significant personal schemes. So, most pilots simply won't be able to retire early. Remember that the UK has announced a state pension age of 69 already, so there is already a big problem for many who will retire at 65, never mind earlier.

Given that historically it used to take donkeys years to get into the lhs of a jet and quick commands are a relatively new phenomenon, isn't it a little bit rich for FOs to be whining about skippers being selfish by continuing to work and not giving said FOs their positions and pay? As for demanding that current captains have to retire early so that the complainant can also retire early, it smacks a little of hypocrisy, to be honest...

[Threethirty]

I understand that people aren't retiring, people are on ULV, BMI pilots have filled the ranks but are there still enough people to crew the new aircraft?

[FlightDick]

Three thirty. We have the first of the Future Pilot programme cadets joining us on the 73 or 320 in the next few months. I have heard rumours of potentially up to 5000 flight crew on BA's books in the next 5 years or so with the increased long haul flying programmer now BA has the extra slots after the BMI takeover? If that is the case, that is an extra 1500 jobs not even taking in to account the inevitable retirements but that is rumour control & I guess will depend on an ever improving world economy. Unfortunately with the lack of airport expansion in the UK & second highest airport taxes in the world (after Chad I believe) we can take nothing for granted.:confused:

[GS-Alpha]

5000 flight crew on BA's books in the next 5 years or so? Ha ha ha ha!

[4468]

HA HA HA indeed! All BA pilots are continuously driven to be more 'productive'. More significant changes coming for SH next year. That's before EASA ignore the scientists to crank up the workload ever higher. We have 3700-3800 pilots at the moment. The Airbus is over crewed, and we are already flying two new fleets. Further additions will, by and large be replacements rather than expansion hulls. I predict BA pilot numbers will peak well below 4000, before falling back to where we are now. Just in time for Vueling's 60 plus new A320s to take over the rump of BA's SH operation.

It may even prove to be a mistake to rule out A350s being operated by non mainline crews on behalf of IAG?

Change is definitely coming to BA!

[Juan Tugoh]

Is that what you think will happen, or is it what you want to happen? Let's all race to the bottom! If BA allow non-mainline crew to fly the 350 then everyone in UK aviation is screwed as far as T&Cs are concerned.

[Yorkshire_Pudding]

If BA allow non-mainline crew to fly the 350 then everyone in UK aviation is screwed as far as T&Cs are concerned.

No, just current mainline pilots will be :=

[4468]

Juan

Have you been in BA long enough to remember when BA offered LGW 777 flying on charter T&Cs for anyone willing to step outside of BLRs?

People were nearly killed in the stampede for early commands. That was before 'stagnation', and I was one of them!

There would be MASSIVE appetite for such a deal on A350s!

To think otherwise is idiotic.

[Juan Tugoh]

If the company that has the country's leading terms and conditions slashes those conditions, what do you think will happen to the terms and conditions elsewhere?

4421 - there were many different contracts back then with EOG etc. that does not mean that your desire to see BA pilots split into many reduced contracts will happen in the future.

[Fat Dog]

4421 - there were many different contracts back then with EOG etc. that does not mean that your desire to see BA pilots split into many reduced contracts will happen in the future.

Already has happened; last year's B scale contracts with 34 PP's.

[Nelson15]

Oh here we go...

[Threethirty]

Sounding more and more like Cathay! You'll be voting for contract compliance next...

[4468]

If the company that has the country's leading terms and conditions slashes those conditions, what do you think will happen to the terms and conditions elsewhere?
Frankly, nobody other than those offering a totally specious argument to justify their 'leading terms and conditions' gives a :mad:!

The desire for BA pilots to be split came from within, not from without!!!

The hunger is still there!

[FANS]

The market has changed significantly - the days of retiring at 55 is simply laughable even if you wanted to.

The BA days of earning £150k+ will become history, and we will look at today as a rosy period for BA flightdeck.

When BA drops T&Cs, everyone moves down a notch and even BA has to maintain a competitive position of sorts. That said, its offer to new cadets is very fair in the current environment and should be praised.

Those entering BA going forwards, however, have to be realistic but it's still the best place in the South of England to work and is just on the same downward trend as the industry overall.

[Fat Dog]

Those entering BA going forwards, however, have to be realistic but it's still the best place in the South of England to work and is just on the same downward trend as the industry overall.

RHS yes, that statement too simplistic otherwise (things have actually improved in certain areas recently).

[Count von Altibar]

BA T&Cs will get worse, but it's still the best place to work as a commercial pilot in the UK. If you want the big money faster post pay-point 34 scales, sadly you need to move overseas. The aviation world is evolving whether we in the pilot profession like it or not.

[stacee jaxx]

it's still the best place to work as a commercial pilot in the UK

A bold statement! I think there are some who would beg to differ ;)

[737 Jockey]

FANS said:

When BA drops T&Cs, everyone moves down a notch and even BA has to maintain a competitive position of sorts. That said, its offer to new cadets is very fair in the current environment and should be praised.



Inviting young wonder kids to remortgage their parents house to the tune of £84,000... Very fair... Well done Willie! :ugh:

[Nelson15]

No cadet has remortgaged their parent's house to fund training. That was the whole idea in the first place. :ugh:

[Callsign Kilo]

BA T&Cs will get worse, but it's still the best place to work as a commercial pilot in the UK

At the arse end of the seniority list at BA it is worth knowing that there are jobs in the UK that will give you more consecutive days off, more whole weekends off and faster access to progression. However if these are all essentials then don't apply to BA!

It offers stability and security, a fair contract - even with PP34. Would I attempt to join again, I don't know. I will probably have lost 400 places on the list and 10 points on the pay scale after passing through the hoops of the last DEP campaign, only to be drowned by a bunch of bmiers and FPP hotshots :p
Still, a pretty good gig and if I was joining as a cadet in his or her mid to early twenties, I'd be laughing.

[Right Engine]

Hopefully the plight of the bottom of the seniority list doing weekend work ad infinitum is about to change with the recent Bid Line tweaks being proposed. It will still be rubbish at the bottom, just not so rubbish!

[Count von Altibar]

Even at the arse end of the seniority list you get a lot of days off compared to other UK operators and a roster bidding system that's fairly involved to get the hang of but second to none. Let's face it, the pilot profession has been on the slide for a long time now and there'll be hard times faced by us all in the near future.

[737 Jockey]

Nelson15 wrote: No cadet has remortgaged their parent's house to fund training. That was the whole idea in the first place.


from FPP website:

This is where the Future Pilot Programme really comes into its own. We have structured the programme so that APL will sponsor your flight training, jet orientation course and type rating. Obviously this represents a significant investment by APL and you will therefore be required to deposit a security bond of £84,000 with them. Because this is a sponsored scheme, this entire £84,000 security bond will be repaid to you, tax-free, if you successfully complete all training, and join British Airways as a first officer. The security bond is repaid in equal monthly instalments over your first seven years of employment, all in addition to your remuneration package.

There are a number of ways you can raise the funds to deposit this security bond, for example from your own finances, borrowing from family, or securing a loan. If you’re not in a position to secure an asset-based loan then you could be eligible for our British Airways guaranteed loan scheme. If this is the case, our partner bank will run a thorough check of your credit history. Should this come back clear and you pass the Future Pilot Programme selection process, British Airways could act as your loan guarantor. You will then be able to borrow the money from our partner bank in order to deposit the required security bond with APL. On any loan there is obviously a percentage of interest charged by the lender, but the British Airways guaranteed loan scheme specifically offers a 24-month holiday period before any loan repayments commence. It should be noted however, that it might be cheaper to secure an asset-based loan either through our partner bank or another lender.

Care to comment? :}

[MaydayMaydayMayday]

737Jockey, with regard to the FPP, I suppose it would be fairer to state that there is no 'necessity' to remortgage the parents (or your own) house to fund the training. The option to remortgage a property is of course there if you can thereby secure a better deal on the finance, but BA have offered to guarantee the loan should you require one and want assistance. Naturally, you'd be at an advantage if you were quite wealthy, could pay the bond without the need for a loan, and would therefore avoid any interest attached to repayments. No idea what ratio of cadets requiring loans have used the BA guarantee vs a property secured loan, though.

On another note, there's also the benefit of the bond repayments being made tax free, rather than having to take it out of wages which had already been taxed.

Is anyone else offering such a system?

[4468]

Is anyone else offering ANY system? :rolleyes:

[MaydayMaydayMayday]

Were there not noises about an orange airline looking at underwriting loans for cadets? I stand to be corrected as I really can't recall where I heard/read it!

[BerksFlyer]

Why would they do that when they have no interest in actually employing cadets? They have been using flexicrew with the cheap, zero hour contractors that come with for years now.

[MaydayMaydayMayday]

Beats me. They should probably start with permanent contracts from the outset and work upwards from there. :ugh:

Edited to add, in the balance of fairness...there are worse deals out there, although even those are few and far between. Not exactly a lot of cadet deals full stop! Still, can fully understand the "race to the bottom" sentiments. I've watched my previous sector (cultural heritage) do precisely the same thing with the increasingly huge prevalence of zero hour contracts and complete degradation of T&Cs. It's worse there than in any other area I've come across.

[AndyPandy068]

This sort of thing is happening in all industries. Largely brought on by over taxation and EU over regulation. It has pretty much destroyed my job prospects in what I do. And while I could be bitter, I'm not, times move on. I'm hardly likely to starve in western society but I do regret I don't have the wedge I used to. The price of progress I guess. :\

[Mikehotel152]

And yet boardroom salaries maintain an inexorable rise...

[Threethirty]

The banksters set a precedent in 2008, now other industries are in alignment. There are only two classes now, the worker class and the management class. The worker class is being slowly gutted so that the greedy lot at the top can pay their bonuses!
Anyway from what I understand in mid October there are the results of an annual conversion bid process which flags up any short fall in numbers, will there be a requirement for anyone I wonder? I would say most likely not, that would be far too convenient!

[Jenson Button]

BA is not a great job anymore for a DEP. There is a long list of reasons why BA has dropped down the world order of great jobs. Many of the US majors have better terms and pay. The Asian carriers are where the growth and increasing pay/terms can be had. After two hold pool swimming sessions I do not think I would ever consider BA again. For the experienced several thousand hour Jet F/O there is better pay to be had elsewhere. Sure, the lads & lasses at BA will mention what a great working environment it is - but at the bottom of a long seniority list with the constant threat of Ryanair/Vueling/Easy and the middle eastern carriers ? For those with rose-tinted glass I want to retire with enough of a pension so I don't have to work in B&Q when I'm 70. After paying off the flying training, the mortgage and possibly at least one wife; then its worth considering working outside of the UK. High Euro taxation is here for the long term and so is the @rap pay.

[Permafrost_ATPL]

AndyPandy068


This sort of thing is happening in all industries. Largely brought on by over taxation and EU over regulation

Err no, it's called supply and demand. Free market economy. Capitalism. Regulation is what is needed. Starting with civil aviation regulators. Put an end to pay to fly. Put an end to tax dodging contracts. Put an end to zero hour contracts.

I'm not seeing any money "trickling down" from my management board into my pockets...

[maxed-out]

Yes, but the regulators are also coining it through reduced requirements for licensing and unwillingness to condemn ptf, zero hours contracts for newbies as you mentioned. Win win situation for caa's and airlines. The fees are extortionate and the volume of applicants on the up. A nice revenue stream for the caa and they can't even answer a question on the phone regarding something in the cap which they wrote in the first place.

[Permafrost_ATPL]

Maybe I didn't get my point across very well, because that's basically what I am saying. Regulators should be doing their job properly and stop what is currently tolerated. In fact you'd struggle to call them regulators, more like rubber-stampers.

And couldn't agree more on their "helpfulness" on the phone :ugh:

[Jordiejet]

Anyone had a call today?

[Threethirty]

Call regarding? Does anyone know how the fleet bidding thing went? Apparently this will determine if any DEP's are required next year.

[mr ripley]

Anyone had a call today?
Some have I gather.

[HIGH5]

Call about what? I thought they had wiped the slate clean after the last batch of DEP applicants?

[wiggy]

I understand ;) BA have suddenly realised they are in some need, fairly quickly, of a small number of type rated pilots at a certain airport south of London.

Phone calls have indeed been made.

[no sponsor]

I thought most would have drowned already, but I see its for A320 rated DEPs, presumably because not enough people bid from LHR.

[Callsign Kilo]

Considering everyone in the last hold pool will have passed the much debated 18 month, point of no return rule; there has possibly been some change of tune out necessity here? Interesting times. No ones called me though :p

[SpamCanDriver]

Assuming its true :confused:

Would be interesting to see how they handle it, seeing as everyone officially drowned in the pool! :=

Maybe time to re-think that crazy policy

[Callsign Kilo]

It's very doubtful there'll be any remit on the 18 month rule despite the recent happenings. Balls not in our court and I doubt it's in pilot recruitments either

[EllanVannin]

Apparently some ex poolers got called last week and re interviewed this week. I know a few guys who sat at the very top of the expired hold pool and have airbus ratings. They have heard nothing......

I wonder if a bit of "who you know" has been at work here for the chosen few.....

[Chris Griffin]

The process is as fair as it can be; those only see differently when it doesn't go in their favour. I can state as an absolute incontrovertible fact that nepotism plays no part in the selection process, and it's the continuing excellent work of LC that ensures that. If you tick all the boxes and there is a continuing requirement then job done.

With all due respect, those in the hold pool have no real idea where they sit and as such aren't in the best position to claim otherwise. It is true that those who received the call sat part of the selection process again.

Rest assured that those with minibus TRs will have been treated fairly and equally. That is one aspect of the process you can, with certainty, hang your hat on. Keep the faith.

[wiggy]

Assuming its true

Oh it's true alright Spam.

Sudden rethink/relook/recalculation of the business plan has led to the need for a dozen A320 P2s at LGW with a start date very very early next year.

AFAIK those that needed to be contacted have already had the call, commiserations to those that didn't.

[SpamCanDriver]

Oh it's true alright Spam.

Ok fair enough!

As someone who drowned in the pool obviously I am disappointed I didn't get the call :{
But I'm not typed on the Bus

It is true that those who received the call sat part of the selection process again

I never understood why that wasn't the standard policy anyway :confused:

Surely it's much better to keep the people in the pool and then if its more than 12/18 months you could call them back in again for part of process as happened here!

I do know that the people who run the pilot selection do a great job and I am in no way suggesting foul play. But I'm guessing that if DEP opens up again the rest of us drownees are going to do the whole selection procedure again. So you can't really blame us for feeling a little hard done by :{

[Wirbelsturm]

I heard these guys were potentially going on the 380, true or not true?


Not true, the company identified a need for experienced DEP's on the fleet to counter balance the inexperience of the FPP new entrants.

[SetStandard]

I heard these guys were potentially going on the 380, true or not true?

http://www.sherv.net/cm/emo/laughing/rolling.gif

Thats a good one!! However, not true. As Wirbelsturm said, down to Gatwick to balance out the experience.

[Tourist]

Wirbelsturm

Exactly how would that work?

The FPP guys will only fly with captains.
New DEPs will also only fly with captains

Thus the influx of DEPs will have no effect on the experience level of the cockpit of a FPPs aircraft.

It takes a long time to be a BA captain, so by the time the FPP becomes a captain, experience is most definitely not a problem.

I think it is more likely that BA is just going to be short of guys early next year on the Airbus so needed some more guys online ASAP.

[binsleepen]

I heard that more hulls are being purchased at short notice for LGW and they need extra crews asap.

Also BA will need to recruit about 1000 pilots upto 2020. 500 to replace retirements and 500 for expansion. This is expected to split 50/50, DEP/ Cadet.

[Wirbelsturm]

Tourist,

BA have always recruited DEP and cadet in the past to enable an even experience 'spread' to prevent the LHS constantly flying with very inexperienced co-pilots too often. It's a high workload for the first few months before the guys get their bearings and some route knowledge.

It's worked well in the past.

What binsleepin alludes to is also probably correct as the lead in time for the FPP guys and girls is long and with various moves afoot at LGW to put commercial pressure on BA they might need to ramp the operation up a bit.

[Cough]

WBF.

LHR crews can go to LGW. There are a few limitations such as a pay point cap which limits the will of the uber senior to bid for SH at LGW. Still good down there though and a DEP I imagine would be pretty happy...

[Sean Dell]

You can't mix LHR / LGW Airbus pilots as they work to different agreements.

As alluded to above, anybody can bid to move to LGW from LHR. However the superior bidding system at LHR is a big draw and also T&Cs are not as good at LGW (Pay cap, reduced Flight Pay Allowance Etc).

So LGW tends to be for those who live locally and enjoy the small base community, guys chasing ever diminishing (currently) command opportunities and new recruits (FPPs).

[4468]

Now thought to be 20 years to any Heathrow command, or 32 years to any longhaul command.

[no sponsor]

That's what Jam tomorrow looks like. :uhoh:

[TopBunk]

Data I have recently seen says that 250 age related retirements expected through end 2020, as everyone seems to be going to 65 now.

Average age of all BA Captains is 50.2 years

Average age of the Captains in the top 1000 seniority places is 51.9 (so, on average 13.1 years before they retire)!

3610 BA pilots on seniority list of which 1700 captains

Do the maths!

[Fat Dog]

Now thought to be 20 years to any Heathrow command, or 32 years to any longhaul command.

And 34 PP salary.

Where do I sign up? Hmm, maybe not...

[BitMoreRightRudder]

The lack of experience they are concerned about at LGW is not just down to FPP cadets but also the 737 captains who are all now gradually converting as the airbus takes over SH down there. Not so much experience in total hours but experience on type, they need to avoid a crewing situation where they are left with newly rated airbus skippers flying with new cadets. Anyway, LGW is great as a hideout from LHR but the future is very uncertain.

Times are changing.

[4star]

Just to reiterate. The current situation at BA is such that if you join BA as a DEP and are in your 30's (or older) and you want to go LH then you will most likely remain an FO.

Also I gather that the Bidline system is waited in favour of the top guys that,
leave aside, you can expect to not get a weekend off for a decade or so. This is worth thinking about if you have or plan to have kids.

I only mention the above because they don't necessarily emphasise it enough
when you go through the recruitment process. (at least that was my experience). I also agree that the situation at LGW is not certain.

[GS-Alpha]

I believe there is a serious change on the horizon within BA wrt seniority for command. At the moment, there are a considerable number of First Officers who are happy to sit in the right hand seat of a long haul aircraft and wait it out for a long haul command, rather than spend time as a short haul Captain. This means that traditionally, short haul commands are considerably less junior than long haul commands. These FOs who sit in the right hand seat have generally achieved their long haul command by about pp19 or 20 at the latest, and so have usually only experienced maybe one or two years of frozen pay at pay point 18. However things have changed considerably with the age legislation changes. Captains staying on for a further ten years means that the average pay point for getting a command is increasing considerably. Long haul FOs have always had a financial choice to make; bid for all available commands or accept a pay freeze on pay point 18. However, for NAPS pilots, this is a serious taxation issue now! About five years from now, a long haul command is very unlikely to occur much before pay point 24. If that long haul FO now hangs about and waits for a long haul command (without bidding for short haul), he/she is going to end up jumping from pay point 18 first officer pensionable pay to pay point 24 captain pensionable pay. For someone who has paid average contributions into NAPS, that is going to result in a tax bill in excess of £150k (yes you read that correctly). With the coming year's reduction to an annual allowance of 40k (and very likely 30k sometime within the next five years), there is literally going to be no unused allowance available, and so £150k cash is going to have to be found! Couple this with the pay point 18 freeze for at least 6 years rather than the current one or two, and you have a very very strong incentive to keep bidding for ALL available commands even for the most die hard long haul FOs. This is going to make the differential between long haul and short haul command seniority narrower than ever before. I think we could easily be looking at pay point 22 as the earliest point to obtain a short haul Heathrow command... And we'll have a lot of 'long haul' pilots very begrudgingly sat in the left hand seat of a short haul aircraft. Either that, or we'll have a lot more career FO's who can't afford to take a command due to the resultant tax bill, so they will sit on pay point 18 for the rest of their careers.

(Note. This is my own opinion and does not in any way reflect the opinion of my employer)

[FANS]

These will be the same projections that said no DEP recruitment for sometime, which then got changed in recent weeks.

£100k RHS with ability to live almost anywhere is not such a hardship.

If you're desperate to wear 4 stripes, yes there are better alternatives.

[GS-Alpha]

FANS, please don't get me wrong; I was not saying it was a hardship. I was simply laying out the decisions that people will have to make and therefore what is likely to happen to the seniority for various commands. I do however believe that it will no longer be a choice of waiting for a long haul command or taking that early short haul command. It will be a choice of never ever go for command, or take the first one you can no matter which fleet it is on. There will always be those that choose the long haul FO lifestyle and accept the loss of earnings, but that financial hit has got a whole lot larger and I therefore believe fewer people will choose the lifestyle.

[FANS]

GS - it's a very fair point you're making, but for those joining whom are under 30, the T&Cs will become very different over the next 30 years anyway.

Equally, I think a new cadet joining under 25 will probably not be line flying until retirement as the work highs and lows and challenges are different to a generation ago.

[Threethirty]

What's changed in regards to DEP recruiting other than the 12 employed on the 320 recently?

[SR71]

Equally, I think a new cadet joining under 25 will probably not be line flying until retirement as the work highs and lows and challenges are different to a generation ago.

I don't think they'll have a choice. Anyway, EU FTL's will allow it.

:yuk:

The cost of living in the SE isn't getting any cheaper....

Rate rise flagged up as London house prices soar - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/houseprices/10392215/Rate-rise-flagged-up-as-London-house-prices-soar.html)

:sad:

[FANS]

The cadets first couple of years will be v. hard going, but the days of cradle to grave flying at BA are unlikely. There's only so many years you can stomach today's joys of heathrow whether in a 320 or 380.

[SR71]

The cadets first couple of years will be v. hard going, but the days of cradle to grave flying at BA are unlikely. There's only so many years you can stomach today's joys of heathrow whether in a 320 or 380.

Everyone from Lawyers to workers at B&Q are saying the same thing.

But you won't have a choice.

The country is drowning in debt, the working population is shrinking and we're still not paying for the NHS or being forced to contribute to a pension...

[no sponsor]

Before everyone starts BA bashing, I can confidently say that working for BA still beats working at my previous outfit.

[Cattivo]

Not sure whether this is the usual BA baiting, but as an older new guy here are some reasons for joining (all been said before I'm sure).

1. The ability to pick and alter your roster even as a junior bod (no 'decade for a weekend off' in my experience).
2. Security.
3. Choice to change fleets.
4. Decent pay (certainly after a few years).
5. Decent hotels (for the most part).
6. Massive network.
7. Worldwide staff travel.
8. Very low cockpit-gradient culture (hence long-term RHS isn't a huge problem, not for me anyway as an ex-Capt).

Now, there's no doubt BA isn't the Mecca it once was (it has its downsides too) and I'm sure other airlines offer some, if not all, of the above but these were pretty good reasons for me and there are definitely no shortage of applicants when the doors open which is a pretty good indicator.

[FANS]

9. An airline willing to invest in its flightcrew
10. An employer not looking to take every penny it can off you - no TR, no zero hour contracts
11. Cadets and DEP selected on ability not ability to pay
12. Generally a well oiled machine for flightcrew (esp as only 2 bases)
13. PAX that are generally well behaved - but let's not debate that one
14. Demanding environment that is LHR!

Plenty of negatives especially amongst those that have not flown elsewhere in recent years!

[Wirbelsturm]

What a lot of people fail to see in BA with respect to a large number of LH SFO's is that they have worn 4 stripes before and aren't really that fussed about which seat they sit in as the 'panacea' of a command is not a priority whereas lifestyle is.

It's difficult to go from the top of a structure where choice is king to the bottom of the LHS structure where you lose all control over your working hours again. Couple that with the nice tax man taking a large chunk of your earnings again over £100,000 and the incentive to move is lessened. This will only get worse as those pilots who are on the money purchase pension scheme don't need the last two years gross earnings as a Captain to 'top up' their NAP's/APS pensions.

However, changes to the pay system and the fixed flying pay have taken out the 'plum' trips structures and based line selection and trip selection purely on personal preference therefore opening up the entire route structure to everyone from the most senior to the most junior.

There is a growing undercurrent of feeling for removing the PP18 cap given the retirement situation and the over crew of ex-BMI captains as the cap is seen as unrealistic and unfair. However you only need to bid for any command, there is no guarantee you will get one.

[Juan Tugoh]

The change from NAPS to BARP is more likely to increase the imperative to get into the LHS rather than decrease it. The concept of the last two years in the LHS to top up ones pension is irrelevant to those whose pension is dependent on contributions. The higher the contribution the greater the pension. The higher the salary the higher the contribution. Even junior SH captains earn more pensionable than senior RHS LH copilots. It s inevitable as BARPERs become eligible for a command more are likely to jump ASAP. Sure there will be a few that go and sit on long haul for a long time but IF people think on their pensions they are more likely to jump to the LHS sooner. The days of the anomaly whereby one could sit in the RHS for a long time and it not impacting your pension will soon be a thing of the past.

[Woolfgang]

GS-Alpha, excuse my ignorance but what do you mean by an FO being frozen on pay point 18?
I'm RAF and in my last year of service so am looking closely at the potentential opportunities out there.

[mr ripley]

A technicality. FOs are frozen on PP18 unless they bid for all LHR commands.

[GS-Alpha]

More specifically, you are frozen on pp18 unless you consistently bid for all available Heathrow commands and you are eligible to bid. In practice BALPA have recently determined that this means you must be bidding for all LHR commands every year from pp16 onwards, and you cannot change aircraft type from pp13. (If you change aircraft you will be frozen on it for 5 years, during which time you are no longer eligible to bid for commands on other aircraft and so your pay will be frozen at pp18). The terms are a lot more restrictive than most people realise.

[binsleepen]

Hi Woolfgang,

In BA there were 24 but now 34 pay points in each rank. When you join BA you start on PP1 and move up one level each year on the anniversary of your date of joining. On the 34 PP scale each increment is worth about £1750 before tax.

On the old PP24 scale First Officers were frozen on reaching PP18 if they failed to bid for a command. This stopped people sitting in the right hand seat taking alot of money without stepping up to take some extra responsibility.

The new bid results came out yesterday so BA will now have an idea of where the gaps in the year to come will be. As always there will be vacancies on the A320 as people move up to long haul as shown by the phone calls last week. The more interesting question is whether there will be any long haul gaps.

The only successful LH bids were onto the 777, 787 and 380 so if bids off the 757 and 747 (onto those 3 types or command upgrades) exceed the drawdown of the 75 and 74 then there maybe gaps. How BA square the circle of seniority and unsuccessful bids onto the 74 and 75 and then recruiting DEPs I have no idea.

Flight deck chat suggests that there may be DEP recruitment in the spring, but that was last weeks plan.

All the best.

[Juan Tugoh]

Hi Woolfgang, the freeze at Pay point 18 is a pay freeze. It applies if you choose to remain in the RHS beyond PP18 rather than move to the LHS - effectively meaning a move to SH in the current climate. BUT you would be a fool to think that if you were to join now the situation that exists now would still be extant in 18 years time.

[Full Left Rudder]

Out of interest, if someone is blocked at pp18 for say 5 years, but then applies for and gains a command, would he go onto pp19 on the captain scale or pp23/24?

[Wirbelsturm]

FLR,

He would go over to the Captains roster on his natural seniority, e.g. PP23 after 5 years frozen, NOT at PP18, the seniority moves up regardless it just means that the annual incremental payments would be frozen.

I am not sure what would happen regards to back pay, if he didn't bid thus leading to the freeze then I believe he doesn't receive any potential back pay from missed increments.

If he bid for commands he would not have been frozen but if a mistake had been made and junior pilots had been given commands before him then the difference between when his command was achievable and when he was awarded his command course would be back paid.

[Callsign Kilo]

....looking forward to another shot at the DEP process come spring maybe? My togs have just dried off. Anyone for another dip? :p

[bigjarv]

Dya know what?! For the first time ever.... I don't think so! The money seems to be against you and so does promotion. I think I might be better off where I am! Thats quite a big change for me! I was die hard!!!

[Kempus]

So.....

Just to clarify. If I joined 2yrs ago instead of drowning in the pool I would have been on 24pp. Joining now 34pp.

Now I'm sure it was worked out ages ago that someone joining in their 30's on 34 pay points would lose out on £200k in comparison to someone else who got in the week before and was on 24 pay points. This all over the length of career.

Now with the new predictions saying 20 years for command, does this mean that if there are no commands to bid for you are frozen on pp18 and thus this difference over the careers of the two similar aged pilots would be greater?

Make sense? Just wondering as I'm now scared of water!

[Juan Tugoh]

No, all you have to do is bid for the commands, it doesn't matter if there are none available. But it is a little premature to be worrying about this at this stage. No-one knows what BA will look like in 18 years, it may have expanded significantly or it may no longer be with us. The changes that have happened in the last 12 years since 9/11 have been huge, why does everyone expect that nothing will change in the next 18?

[Kempus]

I do think things will change in the next 18yrs. However I don't think it will be for the better. Lesser of two evils and all that!
Thanks for the info tho!

[CanAV8R]

Flew over DXB last week thinking nice place to visit, wouldn't want to live there long term.

BA is a very good job in my opinion with growth on the horizon. For those new people looking to join we do have very junior pilots flying the 777/747/787/380.

If you want a quick command try somewhere else. If you want a rewarding career in one of the worlds most iconic airlines then welcome.

:ok:

[Iver]

Really? "Very" junior FOs flying the 787 and A380 at BA? How junior?

[Kempus]

We all want a career and to be able to provide for our families. DXB isn't the best but I have a better standard of living than I had in the uk. We don't all live or want to live in London or Dubai for that matter. Ba stopped being iconic in the 80's and from a passenger point of view is a far distance from being the worlds favourite airline.

Career stability, progression and income is all we look for. Sure having 4 stripes isn't everything but neither is sitting in the rhs till I retire.

As for being junior on 380, 787, 777? Friends of mine been there 5 years have just moved to these fleets. Wouldn't call that very junior especially since they decided that you only join to the fleet your rated on!

[Artie Fufkin]

Career stability, progression and income is all we look for

Lifestyle?

No amount of career stability, progression or income could make up for being forced to leave Blighty. Especially to work 92 hours every month in a dump like Dubai.

[The African Dude]

There are many abroad who feel that good old Blighty is a bit of a dump, too. it's personal preference.

Lifestyle options at BA could be wonderful if you get what you want and bid for, but not if you like living in the sunshine.

It's all relative. Just saying :rolleyes:

[Kempus]

Just for the record some of us weren't forced to leave democratic republic of blighty and 780hrs in last 12 months I'll let you do the math on that give some advice on bidding technique.

[FANS]

I don't think anyone still thinks BA is a utopia, and it's clearly not what it was - but no airline is.

The fact remains that whenever DEP opens, there's always far more applicants than places and if you want to be based in the UK - particularly SE, I'm struggling with anywhere better or likely to be better over the next 20-30 years.

[ManUtd1999]

TBH BA could make it PP44 and it'll still be the best offer in the UK IMO. The opportunity to change fleets, massive route network, respect for their staff, roster bidding, reasonable job security, training/management opportunities, good pay and staff travel - these things aren't on offer at many other UK airlines. Sure you can go abroad, but a quick (er) command wouldn't be important enough to make me want to live in the desert.

There's been plenty of doom-laden predictions about LHR command times, but what about LGW. Are they likely to be in a similar 15-20 year timeframe or a bit quicker?

[CanAV8R]

Since I have joined BA we have hired off the street to the 777/747/767. We now have ex midland FOs heading to the 787 and the fleet has gone relatively junior from within. The same can be said for the A380. Given we have only had the 787/380 for a few months not really much more to say.

You don't have to be senior in BA to fly long haul on any fleet. It's that simple.

Still one if the best flying jobs on earth.

[Fat Dog]

We now have ex midland FOs heading to the 787 and the fleet has gone relatively junior from within

That the same Midland FO's who failed BA selection and got in through the back door? :E

[Juan Tugoh]

Regarding command times at LGW. Given that LGW is going Airbus and there will be no base freeze only a type freeze associated with LGW I expect that it will still be the place to a junior command - but it will not be significantly more junior that LHR. The downside of LGW is an upside if you live locally and like a hassle free airport to operate from. The pay cap at pp16 may move people up the road to LHR but I think the seniority gap between junior commands at the two bases will close as commands dry up and the effects of the Annual allowance on pensions for those still on NAPS starts to bite.. All in all it's a bit like looking in a cracked crystal ball, anyone's guess is good.

[Love_joy]

That the same Midland FO's who failed BA selection and got in through the back door?

Meow.

Maybe BA realised their mistake and purchased his employer in order to get him...

We don't all get a smooth ride in the industry, and I'll be willing to bet there is more than a handful in Midland who failed to be creamed off by BA.

[Threethirty]

This is all well and good but it means nothing unless BA start recruiting, so back to the original question; when will this be, or more realistically what are people's best guestimates? Thank you!

[GS-Alpha]

At the moment, they have a plan to reduce the number of 747 hulls in operation quite significantly over the coming year. Apparently the plan is not to scrap them, but to take out of service the odd one with lots of faults, fix it and then leave it parked behind a hangar or whatever until another one is getting a bit tired and then swap them over. The idea behind this is that it will give the engineers more time to fix things and also enable the company to respond to a route that suddenly becomes commercially viable, and I guess it will allow greater flexibility during disruption too. The pilot establishment will be based on the current forecast plan, therefore if the company suddenly decides to open up a route or increase frequency on a route outside the current plan's forecast, I reckon more type rated ex-hold poolers will be given a phone call (as per the recent Airbus at LGW requirement). Once those guys have been depleted, I think DEP selection will open up again. The stuff about the plan of keeping out of service 747s operational is only what I have been told by trainers, so it could just be rumour. The rest is just my own prediction of what the company will do. None of this is factual apart from the current plan to reduce the number of 747 hulls considerably.

[Threethirty]

Thanks for the reply.

[bex88]

Apparently 12 hold pool (maybe ex) have been called for short notice DEP onto airbus

[Throb@30wCPDLC]

Correct.....I believe LGW A320

[wiggy]

Apparently 12 hold pool (maybe ex) have been called for short notice DEP onto airbus

Already discussed on page 4 of this very thread.

[bex88]

I am so ahead of the game :O

[FANS]

For new entrants, it's still bloody brilliant. Do you pay for your TR, get offered flexi-contracts etc.?

The world of FO T&Cs has moved massively over the last 5 years and we're only waking up to the fact that this is not a temporary shift in T&Cs.

Give every airline has not shortage of suitable (by their definition!) candidates, it's still a fabulous offer but not for everyone as you're just a number at a massive organisation in the SE.

[Widebdy]

Artie there are people leaving BA for emirates. That is a fact. I want to be in the UK. Not everyone does. I can understand why.

Really? Why leave British Airways for Emirates. To attain a quicker long haul command?

That's because it's the way BA want it. They have been granting a great deal of Short Term Unpaid Leave. (the key word being 'unpaid'!) in order to save money. should they wish to increase the number of available pilots, one assumes they will simply cancel this arrangement.

Voluntary or forced unpaid? If Senior Pilots are taking voluntary unpaid leave for their own convenience it might be cheaper for the company to continue to allow them and bring in cheaper junior pilots?

Up to (and including) 2016, out of a workforce of 3700-3800, only twenty six pilots will hit 65. In BA, virtually nobody retires voluntarily before then. Please feel free to draw your own conclusions!...(text cut)... Bear in mind also that the average age of BA's most senior 1000 captains is currently less than 52.

I have read figures close to 200 pilots are being taken via the future pilot program, if correct I would regard 200 as quite a lot and it should cover most of the requirements for an airline not expanding with nobody retiring. Is that a fair assessment or will there be opportunities?

Any more news or rumours regarding recruitment?

[Private jet]

listen to yourselves....aviation is like politics (although a pilot would never say it)....its all talk of right & wrong. Yes it is, but you all miss out 2 key words...FOR & ME.

[Mister Geezer]

Really? Why leave British Airways for Emirates. To attain a quicker long haul command?

Not necessarily and I suspect that lifestyle and financial reasons may be the main motive for moving, for those that wish to do so. Especially if you are single and don't live in the SE and commute to LHR.

[hunterboy]

I would have thought it you were over a certain age (say 35?), joining on a BARP pension living in the UK, then BA is not actually that good a gig. Coupled with the corporate culture and unique working relationship on board, I should imagine that opportunities in the M.E and the Far East would tempt somebody with few family ties.
I know that I will be telling my children to look East & West and try to stay out of the U.K. (Unless they get into banking or politics)

[Emma Royds]

The security and certainty that BA provides could quite well be a very attractive feature for someone who is more mature. Uprooting a family to move abroad is a costly experience and you then have the gamble of seeing if the whole family settle into where you have moved. If the other half is gainfully employed along with having the kids settled in school, then you would need fairly compelling reasons (i.e. unemployment) for moving long distance. BA would win hands down here versus EK.

If you are single with no dependants then (imo) EK is the better option - providing you can see yourself being happy in Dubai. The cost of living in Dubai versus UK has the potential to be lower in Dubai, if you are single. That along with the higher take home salary, means there is potential to have a little more financial flexibility for putting money to one side, than compared to being a single F/O at BA.

[hunterboy]

The problem with joining at a later age in BA is that the demographics work against you. There are approx. 100 pilots due to reach 65 in the next 5 years, followed by around 400 pilots in the 5 years after that.
That is out of about 3500 pilots.
Assuming that you are looking for a long haul command, I'm guessing that it would take a new joiner around 20 years to achieve it.
That together with the upcoming changes in pension LTA's, I'm guessing an awful lot of people are sitting there crunching the numbers.

[MD11Man]

Emma,

Just on the cost of living... I'm in Dubai now and have lived in the UK for about 5 years.

The difference is not big at all. It may seem like you'll get a lot of money for working here and you do, but it goes out at a similar rate. The going price for a small packaging of blueberries is around 4 pounds, just to give a (weird?) example.

Some things are cheaper, but all in all, in year 1 I am struggling to set money aside for saving etc.

Not meaning to hijack the topic, just trying to make it more complete :-)

[OBK!]

Just out of interest, what would one say the time to command in EK is at the moment?

[Emma Royds]

Whilst not wanting to divert the discussion from the primary topic which is BA Recruitment, at a rough guess it is around 5-7 years for a command. Plenty of information on the Middle East forum.

As for joining BA during your more mature years, you may be into your fifties or even sixties (if you joined in your forties) until you saw a long haul command but that is perhaps a small price to pay when comparing that to moving a family abroad with all the potential pitfalls that are associated with such a move. All you need is one of the kids to not feel settled and you either commute and send the family home or you all go back home and hope that there will be a plan C.

There seemed to be a degree of bewilderment in some of the responses questioning the logic of why one would leave BA for EK but if you are young and single, then the pros for moving have the potential to outweigh the list of reasons why you shouldn't move, providing you can see yourself being happy abroad.

It can be tough to save anything significant whilst you settle in but thereafter, it is possible to bank a comfortable amount over the space of a year at EK.

[Harry palmer]

Is there any hope of Direct Entry Recruitment in the near Future.

[Tourist]

Emma


Less than 20 yrs to a long haul command at BA?!


What are you smoking?

[Widebdy]

In fairness to BA the argument about low experience levels is probably flawed as they take so few each year. BA take perhaps 130 cadets a year, thats less then 4% of their entire pilot body, hardly creating an experience issue. BAs experience levels are probably amongst the highest in the world. Anyway BA took some experienced BMI pilots and were within their right to decide how many they wanted. The inexperienced cadet argument may only become valid if an airline is recruiting en masse. Other LCC airlines in Europe recruit hundreds of cadets and they will argue its not an issue while those LCC cadets fly with inexperienced Captains that does not happen at BA.

Obviously it can be disheartening for Pilots gaining experience in other airlines to see cadet schemes in an already saturated market but its BA's gig and they can rightly do as they wish, those pilots just have to sit tight and wait and see what happens when BA requires larger numbers. Anyone holding hostility to BA in that regard most hold hostility for every airline operating today.

[Craggenmore]

BA pilots may not have to move to the ME after all. EK could be coming to LHR.

EK make no secret that their future plans are to stop over and continue routings, linking the globe (DXB-MXP-JFK-MXP-DXB as a teaser.) One transport search on Sir Tim Clarke reveals this.

Considering EK put 10 380's in and out of LHR each day without a spare seat in the house for months now, (plus the tie up with a weak (take-over soon) QF) how long before new basings are needed to continue onto the US, (EK's declared next massive expansion area.) LUFTY and Air Canada are doing their brown-trousered best to stop EK coming in and moving on.

With £230 extra per seat for business APD.............its money for nothing that the UK government love.

With another 200 777's and another 100 A380's coming...............

[JW411]

I am incredulous. Do pilots really sit in the right seat with BA for 20 years before getting a command. I simply cannot believe that anyone would do this.

I never ever spent more than three years in the right seat during my 47 years of serious aviation.

I might well have a wardrobe full of different uniforms from failed airlines but I reckon that I probably made more money and I certainly had a lot more fun.

[Yorkshire_Pudding]

So 15-20 years to short haul command.
25 years+ on long haul for new joiners?

[4468]

I suspect that lifestyle and financial reasons may be the main motive for moving, for those that wish to do so. Especially if you are single and don't live in the SE and commute to LHR.

What makes people think the take home pay at BA is worse than Emirates? That would all depend in which tax jurisdiction you choose to live. A significant number of BA pilots are non-resident anywhere for tax purposes. That's comfortably workable on any fleet! Their take home pay is very impressive!

Looked at in that way, other than an ego-command, BA wins hands down doesn't it?

[Yorkshire_Pudding]

A significant number of BA pilots are non-resident anywhere for tax purposes. That's comfortably workable on any fleet! Their take home pay is very impressive!

Really? And your wife and children are non-resident anywhere too. Not in UK more than 90 days a year for last 5 years? No property owned anywhere in Europe? Where do you live - the M4 ibis?! Where is your pension (obviously no state pension or NI). Employed in UK, based in UK... I know its been done in the past, but can you really plan your next 30 years like this?

Tax evasion is nothing to boast about.

[Flaperon75]

I am incredulous. Do pilots really sit in the right seat with BA for 20 years before getting a command. I simply cannot believe that anyone would do this.

Incredulous? Really?

It's not rocket science. Roughly half the pilots are FO's and roughly half are Captains. Not much comings and goings at BA so you spend half your career in the right hand seat (20 years) and half in the left hand seat (20 years). For that to change by much, you'd need to have either serious expansion (which BA has not had) or a high turnover of pilots (which BA has not had).

Simples!

[4468]

Yorkshire_pud
Really? And your wife and children are non-resident anywhere too. Not in UK more than 90 days a year for last 5 years? No property owned anywhere in Europe? Where do you live - the M4 ibis?! Where is your pension (obviously no state pension or NI). Employed in UK, based in UK... I know its been done in the past, but can you really plan your next 30 years like this?

Tax evasion is nothing to boast about.

Personally I choose to live in the UK. What about you? My point being that you don't have to work for arabs or live in a VERY different (oppressive?) culture to avoid paying tax!

Incidentally there is a difference between tax avoidance and tax evasion. One is illegal, one is not! Ask any politician (of any party!)

Do you even know the rules? Or how it's easy to comply with them?

[AngioJet]

I don't see why a time to command at BA of appr 15-20yrs (SH, maybe more for LH) is so surprising. At most US legacy carriers, the times seem just as long, if not longer...

[RexBanner]

But that guy in the TV Drama Pan Am was a 707 skipper at the age of 25! ;-)

[Megaton]

I am incredulous. Do pilots really sit in the right seat with BA for 20 years before getting a command. I simply cannot believe that anyone would do this.

You're forgetting that there are a significant number of BA pilots who will have joined in their early twenties which means that they will achieve their first long haul command in their late thirties or early forties. I chose to leave a regional operator where I could have had a command for BA where I may never achieve a long haul LHS. I can honestly say, hand in heart, it was the best move I've ever made.

[pilotchute]

If you want to hear something really insane how about when Qantas and Air
New Zealand had guys on the jumpseat (SO's) for longer than 10 years in the late 70's and 80's? The longest I heard of was 14 years.

It then went even crazier when 10-14 year SO's were doing 2 years as FO's and then finding themselves on command courses!

[FANS]

If you want to live in the desert, join EK etc. You can count your DHs till the cows come home.

The problem is that many don't and BA is still the best place to be in the UK, if you're patient with LHS.

[Yorkshire_Pudding]

The other problem is DEP is finished for the foreseeable future. Only those with a trial lesson logged in a cessna or the flight sim pro pilots can apply right now.

Many looking to make their long term career move can't wait possibly another 5+ years for DEP. And if/when it does open again, it may only be for A320 type rated guys now that the 737/74/76 fleets are largely contracting and 757s are gone. Many of today's cadets will be bidding for LH 5 years from now I suspect.

[FANS]

DEP is always oversubscribed, which leads the debate over BA to be a moot point.

I wouldn't rule out DEP for 5 years, and a least FPP is a scheme not decided by parents funding.

[4468]

Yorkshire_Pud
The other problem is DEP is finished for the foreseeable future.
I think to an extent that may be close to the truth. However we are just taking on some A320 pilots, and I'd be pretty confident in future we'll be taking more. Plus very likely B777 rated guys at some point.

Those types may not suit many, but it is DEP recruitment, and the employer will decide who brings most bang for their buck.
Many of today's cadets will be bidding for LH 5 years from now I suspect.

True, but that doesn't mean they will achieve a LH position. That all depends on vacancies at the time. Many of those vacancies may previously have been filled by DEPs. That happens!

Emma
By the time one gets their command in BA, one is likely to have had at least 10 years in the LHS at EK.
That's a very fair point, and one which would definitely sway many towards, the sandpit. The two jobs are very different. Hard cash and rapid transition to LHS of heavy metal on the one hand, against 'just culture' and western employment values and principles on the other.

It comes down to individual choice which has to be good. That choice itself will depend on one's own position within the employment 'marketplace'. Also age will be a factor.

It's difficult to argue either is better, as they are simply so different.

Personally I quite like Dubai. I used to love taking a pair of Rolls Royces there for the weekend. Then coming home!:E

[jb5000]

Who says it's purely FPP from now on?

There was to be quite significant ongoing DEP recruitment but then BA bought bmi and put a temporary end to that. Meanwhile - FPP cadets were already in the pipeline.

Quite rightly, in my opinion, BA have honoured their commitments to the cadets that had already started and they've started FPP recruitment again because the lead in time is so long.

I wouldn't be at all surprised to see DEP and Managed Path open again over the next year or two. All three routes have their own positives and negatives and management have always said each route has it's place in the overall recruitment plan.

[Threethirty]

I'll believe it when I see it. That's not correct, BA have started more FPP courses than they initially pledged. I remember in 2011 when there was much fan fare surrounding the requirement for 800 pilots over a 5 year period, it even made the national press. I'm fairly certain that they are on the way to filling all of these much talked about positions with BMI and FPP cadets exclusively!

British Airways to recruit 800 pilots - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/transport/8693999/British-Airways-to-recruit-800-pilots.html)

[Wirbelsturm]

That's not correct, BA have started more FPP courses than they initially pledged.I'm not so sure. The FPP have, as someone stated in this thread, a very long lead in time and enter the line with no experience of aircraft operations from previous employment or schooling. This can cause an 'experience' sink on the line which is generally countered by introducing DEP's into the training programme as well.


What this does is 'off load' the skippers at Gatwick by giving a skill variety in the RHS and not foisting keen but inexperienced FO's on every sector.


From what I can gather the business case for a further influx of DEP's is being made at the moment and the advantages of multi age/skill levels are being used as a business plan driver.


The other disadvantage for the FPP programme is future pay/retirement. Employ 800 people on the same contract at the same time will give you a headache if they either all retire at the same time or all remain within the company to PP34!


I expect DEP to be announced sometime this year, only IMHO of course.

[no sponsor]

I heard the figure of 100 pilots into BA in 2014. 60 or so FPP, and the rest DEPs. I think 20 DEPs have already, or are about to start, and all to be based at LGW on the A320.

[Wirbelsturm]

No Sponser


The 20 or so DEP's were the type rated pool applicants who were called as there was a slight delay in the FPP. I still expect DEP applications to open up again soon.


Sadly the applicants will still have to wade through the mire which is the HR department!

[MD11Man]

Wirbelsturm,

Can you define 'soon'?

[Wirbelsturm]

Unfortunately ....... no!


Time is very subjective in BA!


Sorry

[Spot7]

Hi all,

Does anyone know if the new PP34 BA pay scales are published anywhere (they are not published on PPJN) or would anyone be kind enough to post them here?

Thanks in advance.

[binsleepen]

Hi,

They do not publish the scales anywhere AFAIK, but PP1 starts at about £50k and goes up by about £1750 a year. There are the various allowances to be added to that as well.

Regards

[Wirbelsturm]

Binsleepin is correct,

The 'basic' is pensionable ( ;) ) and the variable is paid depending upon how much you work or the value of the trips you choose/are assigned. Less popular trips come with higher credit and higher pay. The pensionable pay was stabilised higher about 10 years ago with a reduction in the variable pay which used to make up between 40-50% of you monthly take home, good news for those joining on BARP!

The variable pay is also taxed at a different rate to the basic pay so you get to keep more of it however the HMRC expect you to spend it all out of country for the tax privilege :E.

[Megaton]

I'm pretty certain there will be no non-rated DEP recruitment in either 2014 or 2015 so unless you've already got something useful on your licence you're probably out of luck for the next couple of years. Also, I'm not quite sure what Wirbelstrum means when he says that "Less popular trips come with higher credit." Credit is calculated either using flying hours or time away from base (or a minimum amount differing for short and long haul); there is no adjustment for popular or unpopular trips. Singapore, Hong Kong, Bangkok etc are extremely popular trips and also attract some of the highest credit.

[Wirbelsturm]

Wrong choice of words probably, perhaps 'credit efficient' would have been better.

[Megaton]

Ah ok. Understand now.

[jaytee54]

Does BA still have a compulsory retirement age?
Or have they been obliged by legislation to do away with the 60 or 65 cutoff?

[OMDB30R]

So no rumours of any DEP, is it safe to assume that no DEP recruitment will take place this year 2014 for sure including half of 2015?

[Libertine Winno]

Just a point of note on FPP; I think the original press releases said that BA would look to recruit 800 pilots over the next 5 years, 400 would be FPP and the other 400 would be DEP or ex-Military.

In terms of FPP numbers, the first intake was 92, the second last year was 74 and I think this year is 60 (correct me if I'm slightly off!) so it seems that the FPP average of 80 a year is not being met as we stand.

By the sounds of it the DEP recruitment is also nothing like 80 a year (perhaps owing to the bmi takeover and influx of pilots from that, or additional ex-mil guys), so perhaps BA have just been biding their time a little while things pick up and in 2014-16 we could see some serious movement?

[NigelOnDraft]

Does BA still have a compulsory retirement age?As a company, no.

Clearly BA pilots are unable to exercise the privileges of their licence after their 65th birthday under current ICAO rules, and therefore have to leave BA.

If and when ICAO remove that restriction, or extend it, then so does the ability to work for BA...

[chocolateracer]

At which point there will be a large revolt!!!

[RexBanner]

I for one look forward to an A380 command at the age of 80!

[Tankengine]

Was there a revolt when the 55 changed o 60?:hmm:
Or the 60 changed to 65?:rolleyes::ugh::ugh:

[jaytee54]

I retired when the Normal and Compulsory retirement ages were both 55, but I was keen to retire and get on with the rest of my life - on a great pension. I also grabbed the opportunity (post 9/11) of 3 years of 50% part time before retiring.
I suppose that 55 year olds now will no longer be near the top of the bidline so will be tempted to stay on for a chance to cream off the best trips.
There was talk (way back) that those electing to stay on after retirement age should start losing seniority, instead of gaining more (to encourage those with full pensions to retire). I don't suppose that ever happened?

[763 jock]

Why should anyone be forced to retire on the grounds of reaching 65? This will be challenged in court before very long.

[NigelOnDraft]

Which court do you use to challenge ICAO :hmm:

[763 jock]

I'm not sure to be honest. The fact remains that it is blatant age discrimination. You could pass your sim, medical and line check within three days and then be fired on the fourth, just because of a birthday. I've flown with plenty of people well into their sixties who are in far better physical and mental shape than some half their age. It is surely only a matter of time before a legal challenge is mounted. Maybe in one of the many EU courts?

As it stands, I will be forced to retire at 65 and wait until 67 before my state pension kicks in. And I'll bet the farm that will move before I get there.

[Groundloop]

Which court do you use to challenge ICAO

You don't have to. The 65 age limit is only an ICAO "Recommendation", not a "Standard".

Personnel Licensing FAQ (http://www.icao.int/safety/AirNavigation/Pages/peltrgFAQ.aspx#anchor23)

[carbheatout]

I've flown with plenty of people well into their sixties who are in far better physical and mental shape than some half their age

True, maybe. I would however expect this to be the minority. Just like you see 67 year olds running a marathon, i.e. they are in the minority.

Wouldn't it be better to just bale out gracefully rather than watch things go downhill and end up being pushed? Lets face it, we can't go on forever. Its quite similar to OAP drivers who continue to drive when you really would rather not have to put up with them, but they just don't know when to call it a day.

When you get to 65 go play golf or do some weeding. There's more to life. By then you'll probably have such a massive airline pilot pension pot that you shouldn't need to do it anymore.

[763 jock]

I fully intend to pack in well before 65. However, who knows what might happen before then? A Greek Government style raid on our savings? An expensive divorce? The fact remains that if someone can pass all the checks, then they should be allowed to continue in their role. Otherwise, what is the point of any checking in the first place?

[Plastic787]

763 jock the problem with that is you are then on a very slippery slope. If you do away with the age limits you're on the way to having a 90 year old Captain responsible for the lives of hundreds of people down the back, up front with one of those much less fit 50 year olds you quoted who barely passes his medical every year. (And that's inevitable too seeing as you're gonna see a lot older FO's sitting in the RHS with Captains who refuse to retire)

He's an exceptional 90 year old and has passed all the checks. But are you really happy with this situation as a passenger? Yes it's at the extreme end of the scale but that's still what you're potentially heading towards. I do not want to expand on my previous analogy except simply to say the line has to be drawn somewhere.

[NigelOnDraft]

Quote:
Which court do you use to challenge ICAO
You don't have to. The 65 age limit is only an ICAO "Recommendation", not a "Standard".
Personnel Licensing FAQ The recommendation only applies to co-pilots. It is mandated for Captains.

[d71146]

Wish they had a 'like' button sometimes on this forum

[Narrow Runway]

@ NigelonDraft

So, Captains could give up their command and go back in the RHS.

No-one is being disadvantaged. The "aged" captain still has a job and a co-pilot gains their command.

Everybody happy now?

[Plastic787]

Narrow Runway the people trying to get into the company on the bottom rung certainly wouldn't be! ;-)

[Narrow Runway]

Of course. Point taken.

However, those new joiners don't really figure in BA's plans until they're in the system. Therefore, it is difficult to factor their needs into this hypothetical discussion.

[deepknight]

Perhaps Carbheatout could tell me which company is offering this massive pension pot so I can apply before the scheme is closed.