BA to pax: You're nicked!

[J-Class]

Case No.1: Grace Jones appeared on the Graham Norton show this evening and said that she had turned up (perhaps slightly late?) for her flight to London - on this occasion in a wheelchair, after an operation on her foot - and an argument had taken place with British Airways, who had, rather to her surprise, summoned the police to deal with her.

Case No.2: Bumped into a disgruntled friend of mine over the weekend who had just arrived on a delayed Friday night red-eye from JFK. A passenger had attempted to upgrade himself to Club from Economy and was being somewhat implacable to the steward, saying that "it was ridiculous that they were making him fly economy when club was so empty". He made the same case to CSD who wasn't too impressed and called the Captain - who elected to turn back to the gate and have the pax arrested by the NYPD. My friend was less than happy with BA - he said there was no threat of violence and told the steward "if you want to arrest him, why not wait until London, so we can make our slot?" The steward said "we've got to teach him a lesson!". The result was a circa 2 hour delay - with the captain balming "security reasons".

I was not involved in either incident so I apologise if the account is partial in any way - but I dislike post 9/11 security being invoked for simple passenger tantrums (although having said that I doubt Grace Jones does a 'simple' tantrum!). Are BA staff getting a little trigger-happy these days - perhaps after failing to convict Peter Buck they are looking for success elsewhere?

[Pandora]

Chinese whispers all the way.
Was not involved in either of these incidents but to give a BA pilots' side of things I have only ever had to call police to the aircraft twice - one when a pax somehow got on board without a ticket, and gentle persuasion didn't work to get him off, and another time when 2 very aggressive pax acted in a dangerous way on the aircraft culminating in the serious physical assault of another pax. In each case the flight was not delayed by the calling of police. As I said I was not involved in either case but I can state that BA pilots don't just use security as a get out clause. We generally have a very real reason for doing what we do. If all of the pax in scenario 2 had move to the front there would have been trim problems for take off (you imply the aircraft was still taxying). I don't know. Probably the only people who do know are the flight crew of that flight. But you can be sure there would have been paperwork to fill in afterwards - and we hate paperwork.
It seems we can't win either way. If the crew of the Nairobi flight had returned to stand after pushing back in order to off load the problem pax, we would maybe be having BA bashing of a different flavour, but there would always be someone like you who gets on the internet to say "my friend was on a flight from Nairobi and we were late, blah, blah, blah......blinkin' Nigels."
So cut us some slack unless you know the full story. Btw, recently we had a pax make a full written complaint because he had not been given a full overhead locker to himself and his hat had got squashed. You can bet he told all of his friends, too.

[J-Class]

Pandora, by invoking the Nairobi flight, aren't you rather making my point for me? Hadn't the Nairobi hijacker already had an encounter with authorities on the ground and been allowed to fly? Not every difficult pax is not a terrorist, and if BA is having to call out the boys in blue on (apparently) a daily basis, isn't that a bit much?

Regarding Chinese Whispers - I plead no contest on the Grace Jones case, I only know what she told a few million viewers last night. On the other case the culprit sat himself next to my friend in Club and the I've reported his comments verbatim.

The issue here isn't whether security is important or not - it's how to tell the difference between noisy and difficult pax and potentially lethal ones...

[Alty Meter]

Case 1
Is this the same obnoxious self-important Grace Jones who assaulted a chat show host because he'd moved on to the next guest and, in her view, wasn't paying enough attention? All broadcast, no chance to play the 'victim' that time.

Case 2
Don't know the facts or personalities, and agree with Pandora's main thrust. But there has been a definite change in attitudes to pax over the years by CC on most carriers. If anecdotes from friends weren't enough, conversations overheard on the crew bus are enough. I suppose it reflects changes in society. In the UK, people working in restaurants, shops, service industries in general are not as respectful of customers now as they used to be.

[Icarus]

Now let's suppose that's it's SAturday evening at the local Tesco's checkout.
How often do you think or say to the check-out girl "Hey, aren't you gonna give me something for free?" or "What about all those creams cakes over there? It's almost closing time and you're not going to give me any for free? that's terrible!"
I am sure the answer is never!
However, on the million to one chance I am wrong...
I'm quite sure the she's going to turn round and tell you just where to go in no uncertain terms and I'd bet the manager would too!

Please explain why BA cannot do the same!

[vegas_jonny]

What a pointless thread, must be a slow news day.

[Alty Meter]

Icarus
I'm sure you're right the Tesco check-out lady would tell the customer 'just where to go in no uncertain terms'. (No, I don't think a Manager would.)

I'm disapointed you, as an Airline Manager, think the standard of the average supermarket checkout is an acceptable or adequate standard for BA or any other major international airline. :(

[Icarus]

So let's go down to the nearest Jaguar showroom then instead.
Buy and X-Type and ask (demand even!) to take home in an S-Type!
What's the difference?

Why can't people (passengers) behave the same as they do in these situations when dealing with the the airline and/or crew?
I think that is the essence of what I am getting at.

Be disappointed with me all you like, for I am forever disappointed (upset and yes sometimes outraged) with the human race when I see and hear people as exampled in the stories above.

[Dale Harris]

You buy your ticket. You know what class. You get on. You ask but don't get the upgrade. You know the rules before you get on. You do as you are asked, (or told as the case may be). The crew have more and better things to do than argue with passengers. Quite right, get the people who deal with troublesome people all the time to help out. If I was Captain, I would. Usual story, I think. Act like a human being and most times you will be treated like one. Didn't get the upgrade? Live with it.

[Notso Fantastic]

J-class, If you want a general discussion, why not go to Questions? Many Professional Pilots log on downroute on costly local connections and come to Reporting Points for hard news. If you want a cud chewing discussion, you should put this elsewhere

[Yacht Man]

Several years ago, and in the days when we would accept pax on the jump seat, I learned just how ingenious some pax had become at getting the 'best' out of the system.

Sitting at the gate at Stansted, Friday night, full flight. I accepted a jump seat pax. Usual rules (sorry ladies!) single white female, english speaking etc etc...

Aircraft now loaded, jump seat pax waiting in forward galley untill paperwork all taken care off and jump seat deployed. IFS briefs pax on no alcohol etc. Next minute argument breaks out. Pax now demanding compensation for the inconvienience of having to travel on the jump seat!! I was gobsmacked. Having accepted a last minute open ticket holder, in an attempt to get the pax home on a friday night and do the right thing company wise, I now have to arbitrate in an arguement over a compensation claim literally 10 mins before the slot expires!!!

The passenger made it home that night due to a very efficient IFS who found her a seat in the cabin, and another very grateful passenger thourghly enjoyed his trip home in the flight deck. (I felt like off loading her there and then but the correct course of action was taken).

The point is that there is a hard core of regular passengers who will do anything to work there way into business/first, get compensation and just generally take advantage of any situation and at the expence of the company and those good hearted individuals who really do try to help, particularly ground staff. Some would say fair enough but I do not. I can understand through this and other experiences how some crews are less than tolerant and I think this has nothing to do with 9/11.

SG.
:(

[holden]

Post 911,its inevitable there are going to be numerous cases of being tough on the pax with no "apparent" cause.Its a shame but inevitable.The days when flying was a charm for pilots and pax alike are sadly gone.Whats left are suicide bombers,obnoxious passengers and crew who are too preoccupied with being on their guard to pause a minute and think twice.(ie.revert to their customer-service role,which has now all but gone)
The real question is which came first?The obnoxious pax or the steely crew?Whichever,the sympathies must always be with the crew.I think pax will eventually accept that airline service is effectively dead.

[Stagnation Point]

If you want to travel Business Class then pay for it, thats the money that keeps the airlines going, well the full service airlines anyway. If your mate had paid for his ticket with a Credit Card then BA could have just added the extra cost of a Class ticket to his bill.

As far a CC being a bit on the short side with pax, who can blame them, having seen the way they are treated by some if not most of the pax. They are there for Safety, the comfort bit is secondary. I don't travel a lot as a ppax but have found that if you are pleasant and polite to the CC, then they treat you very well.

[flch10000]

Stagnation Point says ....a bit on the short side with pax, who can blame them, having seen the way they are treated by some if not most of the pax. They are there for Safety, the comfort bit is secondary. I don't travel a lot as a ppax but have found that if you are pleasant and polite to the CC, then they treat you very well.


Sorry, can't agree. I fly approximately 2-3 times a week, medium-haul, EGLL to various Eastern European Countries, and Russia. I find that most passengers are decent, normal people, with the odd a55h0le here and there (but thats a rare occurence).


More to the point, its disturbing that you think that the pax are so bad, its a negative attitude that poisons everything... maybe you should start flying cargo?

[nomdeplume]

Curious that Stagnation Point makes such daming comments about passenger when he says: "I don't travel a lot as a ppax" (Does ppax mean paying pax?)
No, obiously he doesn't, or he wouldn't come out with such ill-informed nonsense. :rolleyes:
The pain in the butt passenger is (almost) as much of a nuisance to fellow passengers as to the CC. Thankfully, they are very few and far between - and I do considerably more flghts per month than my long haul pilot neighbour.
I'd also say that surly self-important CC are by far the exception rather than the rule. But they do exist, and I've seen trivial incidents get completely out of all proportion because of the self-important bossy way the CC handled them.

Most of my flights are business class or equivalent. I do about 3-4 Economy flights a year, and I can assure you the difference is not just in the food, seatwidth and legroom. You are treated very differently in Economy.

And, if the CC are realy there for our safety with comfort being second, it's about time the airlines stopped selling us their product on the level of comfort and service they provide.
Don't misunderstand, I'm rarely unhappy with what the airlines provide, and if I wasn't interested in aviation, I wouldn't browse Prune.
But I do get fed up of hearing about how it's always the unreasonable passngers' fault and never the CC.
And if you guys at the sharp end heard some of the CSDs, IFSs, Pursers etc on the PA, you might be amused. Some of them seem to think they're the Captain.

[J-Class]

Just logged in to find this thread relocated here - I guess international pop stars being detained by police at the request of British Airways just isn't news these days?

Some correspondents have misunderstood my original post. Firstly, the culprit in the 'upgrade scam' case was by no means a friend of mine. The culprit happened to place himself in club next to my friend, who was inconvenienced by a delay he saw as unneccessary. I'm not defending the culprit - he was clearly trying it on in demanding an upgrade - I'm only wondering whether the crew overreacted in calling in the police to deal with a minor passenger incident.

I'm not surprised that this post resulted in some fairly defensive ripostes from crew, however!

[greatorex]

I had a passenger a while back who started making a fuss because there were a few empty seats in business class and simply couldn't understand why he couldn't sit in one.

I popped out very politely asked him if he had ever bought something only to find out that one of his mates had bought the same thing much cheaper elsewhere? He replied "yes". I asked him how that made him feel? He said "very annoyed". I then asked him how he thought the rest of the pax who had paid the full business fare would feel knowing that he had just paid economy? He went off to his seat like a lamb!

One other story; a certain very well known journalist stormed onto the plane and demanded an upgrade to business. The cabin crew politely explained that there were rules etc etc, he started on the "do you know who I am?", "I demand to see the captain", "I'll have your jobs for this". . . In the end I was called out, had a polite chat, checked his boarding card and said that of course he could sit in Business. I thought that the Cabin Crew were going to lynch me there and then, until I pointed out when he was seated that check-in had actually already upgraded the guy to 1st!! He was so intent on getting an upgrade from economy to business he hadn't even looked at his boarding card!!! :D :D :D

Edited - Spolling mistok!

[J-Class]

Thanks for that Greatorex - by the sounds of things you would have had a good career as a diplomat!

[mainfrog2]

In three years working as either a main cabin crew member or as purser I have never yet had to offload a passenger but that has been more due to the tollerance and professionalism of the crew I have had to work with. It's been very close only a couple of times.

I've worked in various service industries over the years and I don't think airline passengers are any worse or better thann shop customers or utilities customers (worked in both). The problem is on an aircraft you can't just walk away from a problem and you can hardly ask someone to leave like in a pub or restaurant, so sometimes crew appear to overreact on the ground when really they are having to consider the welfare and safety of possibly another 300 people. It's very easy to be on the sidelines in an incident and criticise when you don't have to make the call.

[Tandemrotor]

For the benefit of J-Class (and anyone else who is interested) I operated the said JFK flight, and with the greatest of respect, you should get your facts straight before making yet another, rather tedious, anti BA thread.

[CessnaEng]

A pax at the very start of a long flight gets stroppy , demanding and unreasonable. What would he be like after 2 hours, a couple of drinks and couldn't get first choice off the menu?

[J-Class]

Tandemrotor, I pointed out in my initial posting that I was reporting a friend's experience - and that he was less than happy with the way BA had handled it. I'm comfortable that my facts are straight insofar as I am reporting the statement of a witness.

I was hoping the post would stimulate some sensible debate on whether BA in particular, and airlines in general, had become over-sensitive to passenger problems post 9/11. Isn't there a risk of crying wolf if police and security are called to an aircraft too frequently?

If you operated one of these flights, it would be interesting to hear your view on what happened.

I'm by no means anti-BA (although I couldn't resist making some mileage out of the Buck affair!). BA remains one of my favourite airliines - and for what it's worth, both my friend and I are BA Executive Club Gold tier members.

[Tandemrotor]

J-class

Without wishing to spoil your (or more precisely your fellow executive club member's) story;

If your friend was indeed seated next to the passenger involved, how come he didn't notice that TWO passengers seated together were off-loaded?

As for the comment about having 'him' arrested in London, and "making our slot". We had no slot, but of course your friend was not aware of the full picture!

As far as the "circa 2 hour delay" is concerned. If we had not had to hold over London, we would have been on the ground 20 minutes late! Though admittedly we had to then wait for a gate at T4. Even with the holding, we landed at 0950 local (I believe, 55 mins late) But again your friend obviously did not have the full picture.

Sealed on the flight deck, the Captain relies heavily on the information, and requests being passed by interphone. But it seems a large number of pax were relieved to see the back of these two aggressive imbeciles since, we were told, they applauded as the NYPD removed them.

Think for a moment. If, as an executive club member, you had paid for a club seat, would two loud, aggressive imbeciles sitting next to you all the way from JFK, having paid an economy fare, enhance or detract from your overall opinion of BA?

Trust us. Occasionally we get it right!

Did someone mention 'chinese whispers?'

[J-Class]

I regret that it sounds as if my friend may have used some dramatic license in his description of the event - which I suppose is hardly unusual. Indeed, this case looks like a good lesson in how the majority of news stories get written!

The issue of whether or not crews are becoming oversensitive post 9/11 isn't quite being addressed here, though. Tandemrotor, you say:

"Sealed on the flight deck, the Captain relies heavily on the information, and requests being passed by interphone."

What exactly do you mean by that "sealed"? Post 9/11, are pilots being encouraged not to leave the flight deck, even whilst the plane is still on the ground? If so, then wouldn't there be a reduced chance of successful diplomacy (as so cleverly practised by Greatorex, above) defusing such situations? The presence of a pilot could be very helpful: a CSD, however talented, is a much less authoritative figure - one might go as far as saying that as far as the average difficult pax is concerned, a CSD is just another hostie and, as such, worth arguing with.

If the CSD is becoming the effective decision-maker in such circumstances then it would not surprise me if police were indeed being called in for borderline cases, and if so, then the 'cry wolf' problem remains. If that appears unfair to CSDs, then you'll have to forgive my prejudices - but as far as I'm concerned, the only decision-makers I'm concerned about on a plane are the two or three flying it!

[Tandemrotor]

J-Class

Here, here.

I find myself in wholehearted agreement with everything you have said.

I don't think it's a secret that, as a legacy of that date last autumn, communication between the flight deck and the cabin, has been affected. Others may judge the risk analysis, or cost/ benefit.

Having said that, it may surprise the BA 'knockers' to hear that, every member of the crew was impressed with the contribution of their colleagues during this incident.

Please keep flying with us. We are genuinely keen to give ALL our customers a first rate service. Admittedly, occasionally we get it wrong, but normally with the best of intentions.

Please explain also to your friend that we were faced with a tricky call, and did absolutely everything in our power to mitigate the impact on the rest of our passengers.

Thanks

Incidentally, you ask if pilots are being 'encouraged' not to leave the flight deck. I'm not sure how sensitive this information is, but I'm sure I read in a newspaper that Pilots are banned from leaving the flight deck once the a/c is in motion.

Curiously, the very first question asked by the Port Authority when the radio call was made to return to stand to offload pax was "did any pilots leave the flight deck". Strange huh?

[PAXboy]

I am nothing but a serial paxer - 37 years and counting.

Grace Jones has a reputation as a difficult person to keep up. If she cannot tell a story - where would she be? Not on chat shows!

As for the second. The Cpt may have announced 'security' as the cause of the delay but is there a single word, readily understood by all that would say:

"Our security might be endangered by this person whom we cannot control by any other means. BUT our cabin crew have, in the past, had to go to court to tell their side of a story involving pax that would not do what they were told.

We have to spend X hours locked in the tube with you all and this one will not do as he is told - before we even leave the ground!

Do you want all the cabin crew to be irritated by our failure to look after them - and you. Also, I think that those of you that are near the person and can see what is really happening will be pleased that we are doing our best. Thank you and have a nice trip."

So 'security' does the trick?