Story thoughts WW2 and 70's commercial flights

[dowot]

Hi all.

Have had much to learn from reading this site, and some memory boosts, I am nearly of pension age and once, when a lad, flew in the Radio Ops seat on a Britannia flight to Palma due to a delay and over occupation. Think I had been forgotten about as my Mum flew cabin. Flight decks then were rather primitive with lots of padding and shuddering. Remember clearly the pilot complaining about the lack of ground directions from the tower, and deciding he was going where he wanted to go! And the raising of a rooftop ventilator, crew escape hatch? once stopped. No doubt the crew are no longer around, (It was nearly 50 years ago!) but if anyone is still around my thanks to them for a most exciting journey, only spoilt by the loss of hearing!

Now to the reason for this post,I am trying to get a novel off the ground and hope I can gather a lot of information about pre-war and commercial flying in the 70's with little effort on my part.http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/smile.gif

I have two scenes to write, the first would be private flying from the Netherlands to the UK in the immediate pre WW2 era. Was it possible? Would a flight plan have had to be made, say for a "test flight" that could extend somewhat. Was German radar effective and would it have plotted a private plane. Ditto UK radar. Were there many private planes in the Netherlands at that time. What would have been an obvious route/course? Would a non stop round trip have been easy? I guess the type of plane would have an effect and I am looking at an American Waco, but open to offers.

Secondly, a commercial flight from Quebec to Heathrow around the 70's by Air Canada, particularly the landing and passenger disembarkation at Heathrow. Were these flights direct? Was Quebec a normal departure airport? I am sure I read somewhere a term like "To land on the numbers" to describe a perfect landing, am I correct? I assume there would be a minimum flight crew of Pilot, Co-Pilot, Navigator and Engineer still at this time. Is this correct. I also assume the crew would layover for at least a day, what would they probably do? Any specific words that Canadian pilots tend to use? Passengers during this time had to disembark via steps and a bus ride to the terminal or walk? What happened to the plane once the passengers had gone? What was the crews term for passengers at that time? Anything else that will give flavour to my story. I have one of the crew heading off for a night of pleasure with a "Popsy" in Windsor, is that likely?

Sorry for so many questions, especially as this is so far back in time, and thank anyone who can add some detail, never know you might get a mention.

[DaveReidUK]

A few answers:

Secondly, a commercial flight from Quebec to Heathrow around the 70's by Air Canada, particularly the landing and passenger disembarkation at Heathrow. Were these flights direct? Was Quebec a normal departure airport?AFAIK, the only international flights from Quebec City in those days (and nowadays, come to that) were to the USA. To fly from YQB to Heathrow would have involved connecting via Toronto or Montreal.

I am sure I read somewhere a term like "To land on the numbers" to describe a perfect landing, am I correct?It's customary to touch down in the Touchdown Zone (TDZ, hence the name) and a runway at an airport like Heathrow will have appropriate markings. The purpose of the numbers is to identify the runway, not to provide something to aim at.

I assume there would be a minimum flight crew of Pilot, Co-Pilot, Navigator and Engineer still at this time. Is this correct.An Air Canada DC-8 operating flights to the UK would typically have two pilots and a flight engineer.

Passengers during this time had to disembark via steps and a bus ride to the terminal or walk?Unlikely, most of the terminal gates at Heathrow by the 1970s had airbridges.

[Albert Driver]

The 1970s was a time of great change in commercial aviation. By 1979 Air Canada, like all major airlines, was radically different in the way it operated from 1970, with the introduction of the B747, INS navigation, longer range and mass air travel generally.

Your brief description of a four-man crew and passenger disembarkation via steps points more to the late sixties than the late seventies, by which time airlines were heading uncertainly towards today's style (lack of style) of air travel. I recommend you chose one or other period to avoid conflicting advice and errors in your text.

[Albert Driver]

.......... Oh, and forget "Popsy". She was already a grandmother.
In the 1970s it was (in the words of that great airline commercial) "I'm Tammy, fly me!".
Emancipation was in the Arrivals Hall and in that Pre-Aids, Post-Pill era Tammy had the sports car and the flat in Windsor ....

[chevvron]

I would think it doubtful the Germans had any radar pre WW2. If they did, a private plane could stay below radar coverage at low altitude. British radars at the time were only for air defence purposes and it wasn't until a system called 'Chain Home Low' (CHL) was developed that low level coverage was achieved.
I would envisage an aircraft from Holland following the coast down to about Ostende then descending and dodging across the channel at low altitude, that way anyone watching on radar (supposing they had radar) would assume it had landed at Ostende. I any case, don't forget Holland was neutral until invaded by the Germans in early 1940 anyway.
I read accounts of pre-war continental flights by British registered light aircraft many years ago, possibly in 'Aeroplane Monthly' principally by 'Count Zichy' (who later flew with the ATA) regarding his exploits in a Leopard(?) Moth registered G-AAXY.

[Gulfstreamaviator]

predated the touch down zone markings, so YES we did / still do often at smaller airports that did not have a TDZ would aim for the numbers.... and sometimes actually placed the main wheels on the painted numbers.

glf

[dowot]

Thanks all for your time. A lot there to go through, and a bit of re-writing to be done.

Hate to say it, but hope you will all be around as I have a feeling I might need some more help.

Departure airport is no problem, but timing is more important than I thought. I rather wanted to have the air hostess watching as the passenger(s) descend the stairs onto the wet runway!

Still need a "That was a good landing phrase."

If I go for late 60's I could date the scene by incorporating the newly air-bridges awaiting commissioning, which I rather like. I take it they were at first considered rather a problem. How many times did the bridge driver miss the door and hit the side of the plane I wonder?

What happens to a plane after the passengers have left the plane? Is there a ground crew that moves it or does it remain "On stand" (Is that the correct term?) till the next crew take over?

So many questions come to mind, when all I had originally written was 30 lines!

Regarding the pre-war flight.

I had the plane heading north westward out into the North sea from a small landing ground near to the Dutch coast, then turning to a westerly course, aiming for Suffolk as being the quickest and shortest route, think range of the chosen plane, Waco ZQC-6, 550 miles, is the limit here. But its return via the Belgium coast was on the cards as I wanted an RAF pilots report to describe the plane, especially an open door!

Of course I am getting a bit muddled here, as there were no German coastal radars that such a flight would encounter. trouble when letting imagination run away with the story!

I need to pitch this part of the story in August 1939, when CHL was, I think up and running.

Actually you have all been very helpful as your comments have settled my mind as to times. For which I am most grateful. So chocks away with this part of the tale. :ok:

Once again thanks and I look forward to even more information over the next few days, hopefully not too contradictory.

:)

[GrumpyOldFart]

Still need a "That was a good landing phrase."


I say, Biggles, old chap - did we land or were we shot down?



:E

[WHBM]

Unlikely, most of the terminal gates at Heathrow by the 1970s had airbridges.Heathrow has all along had plenty of long haul flights use bus gates, even at Terminal 5 nowadays. It always surprises transatlantic passengers. Certainly existed back in the 1970s.

a commercial flight from Quebec to Heathrow around the 70's by Air CanadaThere were no scheduled AC flights from Quebec City to London by Air Canada then, and I don't think there ever have been. However, Montreal is of course in Quebec province. In the 1970s before the fiasco of Mirabel it was more the Canadian prime gateway than Toronto.

An Air Canada DC-8 operating flights to the UK would typically have two pilots and a flight engineer.As I understand it the higher-latitude flights which AC operated from London across the Arctic to the West Coast were one of the last route sectors around to need a navigator. I'm not sure how they split the allocation between their different routes, but I believe they still had navigators on the DC8 at the time. The 747 finally did away with the need, with its more advanced kit.

I rather wanted to have the air hostess watching as the passenger(s) descend the stairs onto the wet runway!Saying that the ground area where passengers disembark is 'the runway' always brings hoots of derision from the aviation world, I am afraid. It is generally 'the ramp' or in those days 'the apron'. The runway is the specific bit that is used for landings/takeoffs.

Any specific words that Canadian pilots tend to use? 'Ou est mon lunettes ?' for a start. Air Canada has a long tradition of having many of their flight crew from Quebec, due to a requirement for them to be bilingual in a theoretically (but not actually) bilingual country. Those from Quebec can speak both, those from the other provinces generally only fluent in English. Without wishing to get into the whole language thing, AC has long had Quebecers on the crew out of all proportion to the amount of their operation that comes from French-speaking Canada.

I have one of the crew heading off for a night of pleasure with a "Popsy" in Windsor, is that likely?Green Line coach route 724 in those days would take you straight from Heathrow Central to Windsor :)

[India Four Two]

My first flight on Air Canada was on a "Stretch 8" from Heathrow to Toronto in November 1970. I definitely remember being bussed to the aircraft.

Security in those pre-scanner days was by frisking, in my case by a WPC, which was quite interesting. ;)

I also got chastised by the crew for putting my bag on the "hat rack". First and last time I made that mistake.

[DaveReidUK]

'Ou est mon lunettes ?' for a start.Not even a Canadian would torture the French language to that extent. :O

"Ou sont mes lunettes?"

[The SSK]

If it was late 60s, it might have arrived at the Oceanic Terminal, which was renamed Terminal 3 in 1968.

A lot of Air Canada flights in those days had intermediate stops, in Gander, Halifax, Prestwick, maybe Shannon. Decide on a year and Winter/Summer and WHBM (or me!) will come up with flight numbers, schedules and routings.

I'm looking at a Summer 69 schedule from Montreal. AC had one same-day flight, arriving at 11 in the evening, All others were early morning arrivals. Normal economy roundtrip was CA$428 or 524 depending on date of travel, if that's of any interest.

[DaveReidUK]

A couple of ACA stretched DC-8s at Heathrow in 1969 with, if I'm not mistaken, the start of Pier 7 construction in the foreground:

http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/middle/9/8/4/0153489.jpg

And if you want to add a bit more historical interest to your book, here's the aftermath of an accident involving a DC-8 of Trans-Canada Airlines at Heathrow in November 1963, a few months before the airline became Air Canada:

http://aviation-safety.net/photos/accidents/750/19631106-0-C-d-4-750.jpg

[The SSK]

Is that the famous Cabbage Patch incident?

[DaveReidUK]

Is that the famous Cabbage Patch incident? Indeed it was. Here's a better photo showing the damage sustained:

http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/middle/5/0/4/0385405.jpg

The DC-8 came to a halt roughly where the 09L piano keys are today, in those days 28R was about 3,500' shorter than it is now.

[dowot]

Forget the book. I am now fascinated with all the interesting information.

Thanks to you all, I will now don my "Apron", find my glasses and get back to the office and start up the word processor. Chocks away Ginger, watch out for Archie!

[WHBM]

A lot of Air Canada flights in those days had intermediate stops, in Gander, Halifax, Prestwick, maybe Shannon. Decide on a year and Winter/Summer and WHBM (or me!) will come up with flight numbers, schedules and routings.
Full AC summer 1970 transatlantic schedule :

http://www.timetableimages.com/ttimages/ac/ac70.pdf

[The SSK]

Did they think Manchester was in Wales/Pays de Galles?

[DaveReidUK]

Full AC summer 1970 transatlantic scheduleNote the AC856/857 Toronto to Heathrow & v.v. - same flight number still going strong on that route 43 years later.

[India Four Two]

same flight number still going strongDitto for the non-stop Western Canada flights. I've spent many hours on 850 series flight numbers. I had completely forgotten that that route used to be called "The Western Arrow".

I've just noticed the fares table on page 8. The economy round trip fares from London to Calgary are the equivalent of half to one month's gross salary for my first job that I started in Calgary in 1970!

[dowot]

Thanks for all your comments, although it looks like I will have to move the timing of this section to the 80's. But it looks like much of the information is still very useful.

[Jhieminga]

If you're still looking for pre WWII Dutch private planes, this site gives the register for 1929-1949: http://hdekker.info/registermap/TWEEDE.htm

[dowot]

Jhieminga Thanks for that link,not sure if I need all that information, but it does give me some period names, which is almost of more importance. I had decided on an American plane, a Waco, which would tie in with a chocolate manufactures attack on the growing US market. I just hope I can find a way to close the door after a bale-out! Registration details will be useful when the plane is tracked and intercepted by a RAF plane on its return flight to Holland. The more I research the more I realise how easy writing a "Fantasy" story is.