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SpringHeeledJack
18th Sep 2013, 11:51
I was reading this article 'Decades-old' bodies found in lake - Independent.ie (http://www.independent.ie/world-news/mystery-of-foss-lake-decadesold-bodies-found-in-oklahoma-lake-29587340.html) and thought about the family and friends of the missing persons now found, by chance. All those milestones in life not lived and experienced, the people just 'disappeared'.......It makes you wonder how many of the missing people in the world, rather than having been murdered or choosing to disappear, simply made an error of judgement and ended up in such a situation as those in the article.



SHJ

500N
18th Sep 2013, 11:55
Just read that in the DM. A good write up and series of photos
for the DM.

Long time missing.

tony draper
18th Sep 2013, 12:08
People turning up alive after being missing for twenty or thirty years must be nowt but a pain in the arse.
Often thought at my time of life if someone knocked on my front door with definite proof they were my long lost brother I knew nowt about I would just tell em to buggah off and shut the door.
:)

Lightning Mate
18th Sep 2013, 12:25
Especially if you had just won the lottery!

Groundgripper
18th Sep 2013, 12:25
I would just tell em to buggah off and shut the door.

They'd probably just take one look at you when you opened the door and say "oh, forget it" and walk away.:E

GG

TWT
18th Sep 2013, 12:27
As pointed out by 500N,some good pics in the DM

Two decades-old cars containing FIVE skeletons found at the bottom of an Oklahoma lake leads to reopening of two different cold cases | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2424175/Two-decades-old-cars-containing-FIVE-skeletons-Oklahoma-lake-leads-reopening-different-cold-cases.html)

beaufort1
18th Sep 2013, 12:50
I'm astonished a sonar search wasn't conducted when they went missing at the time.

talkpedlar
18th Sep 2013, 12:57
Very surprising that no Ppruner has suggested possible cause(s)!

My guess is that inexperienced teen lost control of fairly powerful Camaro and vee-hickle ends up in lake..possible high-speed impact with water rendering occupants unable/too injured to escape... or doors jammed maybe..

Driver of other vee-hickle 69 years old ... no further comment here..:8

No intention to be flippant or disrespectful.. these are tragic events..

DNA will provide confirmation of identities but establishing cause of deaths after 40 years will be challenging for sure.. fascinating news

RIP

TWT
18th Sep 2013, 13:01
I'm astonished a sonar search wasn't conducted when they went missing at the time.

Did small police forces have access to that kit 60 and 40 years ago ?Or even divers ?

I wonder how many other police forces will now have a look in their lakes.Wrecks hauled out of water are mostly just stolen cars but it might get some wondering if there are any missing persons to be found.

Captivep
18th Sep 2013, 15:55
And why would they have thought of looking in lakes anyway?

Mac the Knife
18th Sep 2013, 16:47
Judge Crater, please phone home......

Mac

:)

con-pilot
18th Sep 2013, 16:50
And why would they have thought of looking in lakes anyway?

Good point. Unless there were signs of a vehicle going into a lake or river, skid marks, guard rail damage, etc, there is no reason to suspect that a missing vehicle did go off the road into a body of water.

There was a similar case in Oklahoma City years ago. A mother and daughter went missing back in 1963. The route they normally took did in fact go by a lake, although there were no obvious indications that they drove into the lake, the lake was searched in the area that the road passed by the lake, nothing was found.

However, during the search of the lake, the police found evidence, non-related to the search of the lake, that made them believe that the father/husband may have something to do with the disappearance of his wife and daughter. He was arrested, but vehemently denied any involvement in the disappearance of his wife and daughter. The case against him was dropped shortly later for lack of any evidence.

Then in 1990, 27 years later, the lake's water level was lowered to perform maintenance on the dam. When one of the duck ponds connected to the lake water level dropped, a car* was discovered.

The car contained the remains of the wife and daughter that had gone missing 27 years earlier. According to the police reports of the time the two went missing, the pond had been searched, but only briefly.



* Now, the really bizarre thing about this is that the mother and daughter were in a 1963 Cadillac, within 15 feet of their 1963 Cadillac, were two other 1963 Cadillacs. No bodies were in the other two Cadillacs.

Oh, one more note of interest, at least to those that live in Oklahoma City, the lake in question is the main supply for water for OKC. You know, the same water we use to drink. :uhoh:

UniFoxOs
18th Sep 2013, 17:28
Just read that in the DM. A good write up

Apart from the DM having 6 bodies in the cars and the Indie having 5.

However apart from the BBC, who have "several teenagers", most of the other reports have 6, so maybe the DM is right for a change and the Indie etc. wrong.

Fantome
18th Sep 2013, 18:14
In Oklahoma . .. when the wind comes sweeping down the plain, and the waving wheat . . . etc . .. . it can be most fragrant, the ambient air. And in Oklahoma City the water supply gives off a faint piquancy . . .. ahhh. . . . saith the connoisseur . .. . . sniffing the bouquet . .
"unmistakeable . .. 1963 Cadillac"

hullo sailor. . .. you are a hard man Tony. it could be at the door your long lost cousin from Manangatang who might
be a ravishing beauty. . . who might want to get to know you. . . . who might want to explore the mystique of your blunt nautical ways. any port in a storm , I think you quoted once upon a time

Loose rivets
18th Sep 2013, 19:37
They'd probably just take one look at you when you opened the door and say "oh, forget it" and walk away.


I wouldn't have had the nerve to say that to the FSL, but it was B . . . blinkin' funny.


You know about finding my semi-siblings, now don't you? Wonderful experience.

Oh, was going to say, the thread puts me in mind of Anthony Hopkins.

Mariner9
18th Sep 2013, 21:12
Two related tales to recount.

In my seafaring days when sailing as Chief Officer on a Tanker trading off West Africa, we started having problems with the forepeak fresh water tank where the water started tasting a bit "strange" (though samples sent ashore for analysis were pronounced safe to drink). Eventually after getting fed up with continuous complaints from the crew, I ordered the tank to me emptied and cleaned. Upon internal inspection, we found the decomposed remains of 2 stowaways :yuk:

Second, I was called in several years ago to a certain UK refinery to investigate continuing problems with the quality of Toluene (a petrochemical solvent) I recommended emptying and cleaning of the main storage tank, whereupon the skeleton remains of a teenager were found by the tank cleaning crew.

Refinery security records showed that a year previously, security had located an intruder, and thought he had run up the tank concerned's ladder, though couldn't find him on the tank roof. It is believed he attempted to hang from the top sample hatch to avoid detection, but was overcome by fumes and fell in :sad:

VFD
19th Sep 2013, 00:35
Unless there were signs of a vehicle going into a lake or river, skid marks, guard rail damage, etc, there is no reason to suspect that a missing vehicle did go off the road into a body of water.

By the time you would go looking for someone disappearing a rain storm or just normal activities would obscure the tracks.

I looked at the pictures on local news broadcasts to try and get a bearing on exactly where these vehicles were found. The satellite images did not indicate anything unusual the best I can tell that would have indicated a bad design in a turn in a road at normal speeds.
It appears to be on the south shore near the damn, maybe 1.5-2.0 miles WSW of the water tower. I have done some work near the NE corner close to the damn years ago and the terrain is steep leading towards the lake in that location.

VFD

TWT
19th Sep 2013, 00:50
There's no shortage of people who drown after mistakenly driving down boat ramps into lakes,reservoirs or the ocean.Poor visibility at night or fog,rain storms will do it.

lomapaseo
19th Sep 2013, 01:05
I wonder if they will restore the cars sufficient to put on permanent display. I bet they would attract viewers.

I just watched the episode on mythbusters that demonstrated the impractibility of getting out of a car that has sunk beyond 14ft.

It seems that it turns over on its back as it fills and you have to chase the diminishing air bubble in the dark with little chance of opening a door until the pressure is equalized.

VFD
19th Sep 2013, 01:15
I just watched the episode on mythbusters that demonstrated the impractibility of getting out of a car that has sunk beyond 14ft.
Even in the seventies people did not wear seat belts often.
I would guess there was some physical injury that would impair someone's ability to make an egress depending on how fast the vehicle impacted the water.

VFD

500N
19th Sep 2013, 01:20
Cars tend to stop dead when they hit water and as has been pointed out,
no seats belts, head forward, hit head on whatever, the games over,
drowned before you get a chance to get out.

West Coast
19th Sep 2013, 01:30
I do enjoy myth busters, but have my doubts about the conclusions they come to.

500N
19th Sep 2013, 01:49
So do I.

I love the way they use explosives, starts off nice and controlled
and then when that doesn't work, they just pile more on until
whatever they are testing is totally destroyed.

VFD
19th Sep 2013, 02:00
I love the way they use explosives, starts off nice and controlled
and then when that doesn't work, they just pile more on until
whatever they are testing is totally destroyed
That the beauty of it, is it not?

I caught an article that indicated that the vehicles were located at the end of a boat ramp in 12ft of water. The water is quite murky (lots of silt) maybe 6in to 8 in visibility in that lake.

That would pretty much indicate that the vehicles may have just driven off into the water at high rate of speed in the dark. This many years later it would be hard to determine if any foul play was involved.

VFD

onetrack
19th Sep 2013, 05:18
Maybe if they keep looking in lakes, they'll find Jimmy Hoffa inside a '63 Cadillac at depth?? :E

RatherBeFlying
19th Sep 2013, 05:24
A few years ago the bodies of three missing girls were found in a car in a farm pond in the middle of a field. It seems they had taken a wrong turn and entered the pond at low speed as the dirt track was slow.

Professor Popsicle has conducted some valuable research:

How to escape a sinking car - The Globe and Mail (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/how-to-escape-a-sinking-car/article1376416/)

500N
19th Sep 2013, 06:12
Interesting about the windows shorting out.

I hadn't thought of that.

con-pilot
19th Sep 2013, 16:20
Interesting about the windows shorting out.


Used to fly with a guy that refused to buy a car with electric windows, said he was afraid to be in one in case he drove into deep water and the windows may short out.

My reply was that I had no intention of driving into deep water. Still haven't after 50 years of driving, so I must be doing something right. :p

Effluent Man
19th Sep 2013, 18:03
16 year old in a Camaro.What could possibly go wrong?

rgbrock1
19th Sep 2013, 18:10
Con:

Along the lines of your buddy not wanting a car with electric windows. (Well, sort of along those lines.)

Had a girlfriend many moons ago who refused to wear a seat belt when driving. She was ticketed numerous times for not wearing it but still drove unbuckled. She claimed that if she ever needed to get out of her car fast, she felt that being buckled in might be the difference between life and death. Which, of course, I always thought a bit questionable.

About 15 years ago she was driving along, unbuckled as usual, when a tractor-trailer truck in front of her jammed his brakes on. She couldn't stop in time and her car slid in underneath the Mansfield barrier in back of the trailer. As the car was doing so she ducked down into the front-side passenger well with her foot still on the brakes. She stopped and although badly shaken and bruised, she survived the encounter.

The police who responded to the accident told her that it was good that she wasn't buckled in in this case because if she had been, she would have been decapitated. (The entire top half of her car was sheared off.)

onetrack
20th Sep 2013, 04:21
She couldn't stop in time

Uh-Huh. And there's the whole problem right there, in your short statement above.

Seem to recall there was a motor-bike riding hero in the U.S. who was a loud and vocal opponent of the utter uselessness of helmets for bike riders.

Seem to recall he came off his bike and landed on his (helmetless) head on the road. It ended his constant arguing about no need for helmets.

Seatbelts have been proven to have saved hundreds of thousands of lives since their introduction in the 1960's.
In maybe .00001% of accidents, someone was killed by wearing a seatbelt. Them's the breaks.

ehwatezedoing
20th Sep 2013, 07:08
A few years ago the bodies of three missing girls were found in a car in a farm pond in the middle of a field. It seems they had taken a wrong turn and entered the pond at low speed as the dirt track was slow.

Professor Popsicle has conducted some valuable research:

How to escape a sinking car - The Globe and Mail (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/how-to-escape-a-sinking-car/article1376416/)

In the article it says:
1. Don't touch your cellphone. Some people have the impression a car will float long enough for them to call 911. A car will float for a minute, and you need to escape in that first minute. Beyond that, you'll have very little chance of getting out.

2. Release your seatbelt. In panic mode, many people forget this step.

3. Open or break a window. Don't bother with the door. If the electric windows short out, use a small hammer or small punch. And if you don't carry one of those, buy one soon. Dr. Giesbrecht keeps one mounted on his dash.

I did the underwater egress course (Oil platform helicopter mock up who would go upside down in a pool)
Unless you are a former NASA astronaut who received his full zero gravity training:
Lesson number one is to keep your seat belt on until you manage to open your exit!
Once open, take your mark with one hand, unbuckle, put your second hand on the other side of the frame, pull yourself out and don't try to swim to the bottom thinking you are heading to the surface.
Like one guy did at the pool....twice! :8

If you start floating around in the cabin you are basically done as you will loose all references.

And yes, you better keep your eyes closed at all time under water.
If not it get very confusing and on top of that fuel or any kind of other sh!t might be around stinging your eyeballs.


Things the brain can do during high stress. They told us a story of a chopper pilot who had to ditch:
Before leaving, he did his engines shut down...All under water!

ORAC
20th Sep 2013, 07:38
3. Open or break a window. Don't bother with the door. If the electric windows short out, use a small hammer or small punch. And if you don't carry one of those, buy one soon. Dr. Giesbrecht keeps one mounted on his dash. I knew a lass who bought a punch to be able to break her windscreen in such an emergency.

Kept it in the tool bag in the boot..... :ugh:

sitigeltfel
20th Sep 2013, 07:50
I once had a Volvo XC70 with the "on call" system fitted which was linked to their emergency response centre by the onboard mobile phone system. If the car sensed a shock, roll over or fire it would alert them with the position, temperature, number of people on board, vehicle attitude, amount of fuel in the tank and a plethora of other info. They would then pass all the details to the emergency services if I did not respond to a call from them.

I asked what would happen if I went off the road and landed upside down in a lake where the aerial was submerged. The answer was, "Basically, you're fooked".

Effluent Man
20th Sep 2013, 08:29
A case near me about two years back.Guy on a night out disappeared in his Golf GTi.He was last seen in a pub worse for wear.They found the ar a few weeks later underwater in a cut that connects two parts of the Norfolk Broads.He appeared to have taken a wrong turn and driven down a lane that just ended at the point where the road reaches the cut.These two look the same.

West Coast
24th Sep 2013, 19:31
http://www.kdlt.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=30142&Itemid=57

Another mystery being answered hopefully

Effluent Man
25th Sep 2013, 15:04
Presumably since last weeks case every enterprising cop with a sonar has been giving it a try out and this latest case is the result of that.Stand by for more because where there is access to water this must be a reasonably common occurence.I know it's happened in The Fens but usually discovered quite quickly.In the US the space available I would think makes this far less likely.

lomapaseo
25th Sep 2013, 15:14
Presumably since last weeks case every enterprising cop with a sonar has been giving it a try out and this latest case is the result of that.

I doubt that. More like waiting for the creek to dry