Which Multi-Engine route?

[Force For Good]

The RAF Multi-Engine stream is currently the most diverse for trainees in terms of the number of platforms available after the award of brevet.

The question is, which type would you opt for (given the choice), with knowledge of both military flying and post military prospects for the inevitable exodus to the civil world for those who don't climb the ranks?

My picks and reasons for those would be as follows:

99 Sqn - C17 - More diverse than Voyager, some proper military flying with a modern jet fleet.

32 The Royal Sqn - HS 125 to BAE 146 - Flying all over Europe and into theatre more and more often, flying and mixing with very interesting individuals, lifestyle.

70 Sqn - A400M - Real military flying into austere locations. Possibility of crossover to SF.

10 Sqn - Voyager - ATPL + Type Rating on A330, fast track to easy street on a modern jet.

That leaves: Sentry, Rivet Joint, Shadow, C130s, Sentinel, Islander...

[SASless]

C-17's without a moment's hesitation followed by C-130's.....but commonsense would say the A-330 for a handy transition to Civvie Street.

[Robert Cooper]

Wot SASLess said.

Bob C :ok:

[Evalu8ter]

FFG,
"Real military flying into austere locations. Possibility of crossover to SF". You want to work a bit harder and get to Chinook!

Joking aside, if a MEXO was still available then I'd look at C17 (been back and forth a few times in it - it does seem a most pleasant platform) or C130J. For RAF career terms get into A400M early doors, for longer term then Voyager is sensible but probably not 'real military flying'.

[kharmael]

I'd go C-130 because of the sheer number of different things it does - Low Flying, Stores Airdrop, Paradrop, Unprepared Landing Zones, Search and Rescue, AAR, Maritime Reconnaissance - all day and NVG. Oh and it also does routes round the world.
I originally thought C-17, but it turns out that it is only used as Strategic Airlift and has no tactical or real 'military' flying in the RAF, just hump stuff from airport A to airport B.
Factor in that to get from A to B in a C-130 means you have to stop over in a lot more places and see a bit more of the world instead of just taking off from Brize and landing directly at destination.

A400M after a good few years in service will get some similar capabilities as the C-130, it definitely won't be doing anything remotely interesting until good ol' Qinetic/ Boscombe get their teeth into it. So just repeat what I said about C-17. Oh, and you're having a giraffe about SF, right? Have you see the size of that thing?

Number two would be 32(TR) Sqn on either HS125 or BAe 146. Again the variety of routes is huge, NOT just Europe, and you do get some time in theatre doing something vaguely military instead of being a corporate jet all the time.

10 Sqn, Voyager, I (personally) would consider as a last tour, only to get some fan time and Airbus Flight Deck. I can't say the tanker job particularly appeals to me but maybe as a crusty old Captain who's ready to leave I could do it for the A330 TR! Along the same lines is the Global Express type rating of the Sentinel on 5(AC) that makes a recipe for some serious moneymaking outside of the RAF.

ISTAR platforms in general are not going to have exciting flying and I heard you end up walking around with 5 degrees of left bank when you come back from a particularly long sortie.

Sentry, I don't know much about but I'm not sure they're taking people anymore?

Shadow is similar to Sentry/ Sentinel, but with a King Air. Though much like a fighter you are squashed into your seat with the amount of stuff you're wearing but have the added pleasure of being almost literally shoulder to shoulder with the guy next to you and unlike other ME aircraft you can't easily get out of your chair to use the facilities!

I know literally nothing about the RJ and the Islander/ Defender is Army! :}

Obviously this is all tongue in cheek and is my somewhat cynical opinion, but If you joined the RAF to flying something military in a military fashion the C-130 and eventually A400M are the only real tactical ME aircraft. The rest, whilst doing a military job, are not tactical in the slightest with the exception of the C-17 doing occasional steep descents and 146s doing route detachments in Afghan.

Standing by for incoming...

[Party Animal]

P-8A Poseidon


Seriously though, it would be interesting to see the throughput of pilots if the RAF/RN ever go down this route. A 737 rating opens up a lot of options when the domestic life becomes an issue. :hmm:

[MechGov]

A remarkable number of people are plotting escape routes from the mighty C17

[Basil]

I'm not sure I'd worry too much about type for transition to civi.
I left the RAF, current on Chipmunks, on to Viscounts; although perhaps previous 4 x Dart experience swayed the selection.
Approaching retirement at 55, I fought to remain on B75/76, confident that they would afford the best chance of another appointment - nothing doing on those so accepted the offer of B747. In that outfit we'd a guy who'd gone rotary, short tour on Hercs and then did well on the Jumbo.
OTOH I could be completely wrong :p

[SASless]

Will the P8 be a 737 Type rating?

[More lookout]

P8, you might find some ex RAF trying to get back in.

A garunteed job until retirement would be a blessing.

[Party Animal]

SASless,


Will the P8 be a 737 Type rating?


I understand the initial cadre of test and evaluation pilots required a 737 course/rating before flying the P8 but I'm not entirely sure how this will translate to front-line pilots. However, same engines, airframe and flight deck (roughly), so can't see why not.

Perhaps some current P8 pilots may wish to comment?

[pitotheat]

I have to agree with Basil and say go for the type/role that most interests you. Starting your RAF career with half an eye on a commercial TR ignores the fact that you might be on a completely different aircraft type as you approach an option point or even in a ground role. In addition the requirements in the commercial world change so rapidly that what might seem like a sound decision now soon becomes completely irrelevant. So take this opportunity to pick an area/role/location/potential RAF career path you really want to do. Good luck.

[SASless]

As the Navy is doing some interesting and common stuff with P-3's and the P-8.....I get the impression from talking to some folks in the loop that the Navy knows it has the wrong airframe in the choice of the P-8 and would have been far better off updating the P-3.....that thinking the P-8 is a lead pipe cinch to be around for long might be a stretch.

[Bigpants]

I am on an AEF where we have a holding pilot aged 27 awaiting a Hawk Course.

One of the pilots he did basic with got axed with the 170 pilots and is now a qualified Airbus co pilot at Manchester. I have flown with him so...

Depending on how much holding one gets on the multi route I would suggest you bin the RAF right now and get on a CTC course this year.

I am sure a multi tour would be fun but hanging around waiting for the RAF to train you is a serious impediment to your future prospects.

The holding pilot may get his Typhoon moment but his mate will be a training Captain by the time he bails out into civvy street.

[Courtney Mil]

Fortunately, the RAF selects its pilots for roles based on their capabilities and where those are needed, not where said pilots can best feather their nests for an early opportunity to jump ship and profit from their RAF training and experience.

Sorry, for a moment there I thought I was writing a holier than thou post on PPRuNe. Back with you now.

[airborne_artist]

Bigpants - you did however skip the bit about the £100k plus bill for the Airbus driver's ticket, and also the bit about having fun while you earn, at least for the first half of your career ;)

[VinRouge]

Do yourself a favour, get on the pensions calculator and have a look at what the offer looks like for your average mate currently on the OCU. Then consider no fly pay till past OCU, the effect this has on pay progression. The salary and offer for existing mates is a joke; there are plenty who want fast jet, but for a man, I can't see why any young, motivated intelligent pilot would want to serve past their initial return of service. 12 years fighting pointless wars have seen to that.

I don't know many 1st tourists currently approaching tourex who intend to stay past their return of service.

It's not as if the loss of 100% fp will make much difference, it accounts for **** all of their pay.

Those with grandfather rights to afps can sit in ivory towers. We are truly headed for a manning disaster if things pick up firmly in 2015.

[Just This Once...]

The disaster is creeping ever closer and I don't think anyone has an answer. Pay is just one part of the package but I was slightly surprised to be chatting to a guy who would be leaving at his IPP having climbed to the lofty heights of middle band flying pay - at the same age I was firmly at 'enhanced'.

[Bigpants]

I think some of you have missed the point, perhaps deliberately, not sure.

27 and still holding? Explain the fun in that?

I joined after a four year sandwich degree and had a 1000 hrs Hawk aged 28.

I do not believe the modern RAF is delivering a career to its people full stop and the future does not bode well.

But the recent experience of RAF pilots seems awful to me (endless holding followed by over committed to Op Tours) and yes it can cost £100k to get into a good civvy flying job but some of those that do are driving DB9s around Dubai and still paying off their debts in quick time..

I did not encourage my kids into to the mob and neither did most of my friends.

[Just This Once...]

Not that it matters much with the poor PAS uptake, but if the chap I referred to above did stay in he would move on to PAS at around Level 14 rather than the traditional Level 20. This has quite a serious impact on the pension!

[BEagle]

I am on an AEF where we have a holding pilot aged 27 awaiting a Hawk Course.

One of the pilots he did basic with got axed with the 170 pilots and is now a qualified Airbus co pilot at Manchester. I have flown with him so...

Good grief! 27 and still waiting for an AFTS course? I thought I was bad enough; after a year as a Flt Cdt, 4 years at university and stumbling through JP/Gnat/Hunter I was 25 by the time I reached my first OCU....

I do not believe the modern RAF is delivering a career to its people full stop and the future does not bode well.

Sadly, that seems very true. Little opportunity to become a QFI either, with the nonsense of 'MFTS'....:yuk:

Would I encourage anyone to join the RAF as a pilot? The RAF I joined, certainly. The RAF as it is today - absolutely not.

[Force For Good]

While the C130 / A400M route would be top in terms of the 'military flying', and variety that it would entail, I wonder if turning down the C17 or Voyager (hypothetically speaking) would be a sensible decision for the long term, considering a transition to airline flying in later life. The difference between turboprop / turbofan experience seems to be viewed quite significantly later on.

32 Sqn seems almost like the best of both worlds in that it involves some interesting military taskings and locations but also on a jet fleet with crossover to the civilian world. Sentinel probably not as interesting but again with an obvious advantage of it's civil operators.

Glass Collector

P-8A Poseidon?

I thought you were joking at first, but having had a proper read around, sounding very interesting, I imagine lots of flying in circles again though!

I definitely agree with the opinions of Basil and pitotheat and wouldn't want to make a choice (if presented) based on a commercial TR but at the same time not wanting to shoot oneself in the foot by turning down a sensible career option for a 'fun' one.

Holding?

I am on an AEF where we have a holding pilot aged 27 awaiting a Hawk Course.

One of the pilots he did basic with got axed with the 170 pilots and is now a qualified Airbus co pilot at Manchester. I have flown with him so...

Depending on how much holding one gets on the multi route I would suggest you bin the RAF right now and get on a CTC course this year.

You guessed it, with an average of just over 3 minutes of flying per day since joining. Believe it or not, I was on an ATPL course for a month before I quit when my IOT offer finally came in (explaining this is a long story, but it was a carefully considered decision). I had to pay my way out of the contract to join the RAF, so going back there is not high on my list of plans. I managed to survive the cuts in 2011, but know plenty of chopped mates who now fly 777 with Cathay and the like. The ATPL mates of course all now have 2 years under their belts as Commercial FOs.

27 and still holding? Explain the fun in that?

26 and still on Tutor...I do agree to an extent. However, the experience I have already had with the RAF despite it being one of the darkest periods in terms of cuts (literally in the case of Harrier and MRA4) has exceeded expectations and would've passed me by if I was flying with EasyJet etc.

Thanks all for your input, all appreciated and some interesting points to consider, should I find myself in a situation involving choice at the end of the next course...

[SASless]

Beags is talking about his second life.....the first was done on Dope and Fabric, Rotary Engined, bi-planes.:=

[kharmael]

While the C130 / A400M route would be top in terms of the 'military flying', and variety that it would entail, I wonder if turning down the C17 or Voyager (hypothetically speaking) would be a sensible decision for the long term, considering a transition to airline flying in later life. The difference between turboprop / turbofan experience seems to be viewed quite significantly later on.


It does beg the question as to why you would join the RAF if you didn't want to do military flying? Even going C-130/ A400M I would suggest you are FAR better placed than FJ & RW mates. A Four Engined, Multi Crew, IFR, Glass Cockpit aircraft is still a massive tick. By all accounts TurboProp vs TurboFan is just a couple of flights to get used to the fact that you need to give it a minute to think about giving you power and that you can go much higher and much faster!

[ShotOne]

Speaking from the perspective of an airliner seat I suggest that you don't get strung up worrying about what type may or may not appeal to an airline recruiter. Clearly a relevant type rating is always useful but, having flown with many pilots from various ME types, and also rotary, fast jet, red arrows, test pilot posts, theres no particular distinction once wearing your dark blue uniform. If you're that desperate to get into an airline seat, then go and do it now. (the gentleman who described it as "easy street" might be in for something of a wake-up!) Otherwise, having put so much commitment into getting thro RAF selection and training, fly whatever you have your heart set on and enjoy it!

[Union Jack]

.... there's no particular distinction once wearing your dark blue uniform.

Oh yes there is!:ok: Oh sorry - that dark blue uniform .....:rolleyes:

Jack

[Herod]

Take off the rose-coloured glasses. Commercial operations normally recruit on a Friday for courses starting Monday; there is very little long-term planning. I applied to a particular airline while waiting to leave the RAF and was turned down (without interview) for a F.O. slot. Barely two years later the same airline offered me a direct-entry captain's position (can you start next week?). Enjoy the military flying and take the commercial as and when it comes.

[JTIDS]

Now the pension has been reduced to bugger all and you get what few exemptions you are entitled to from your ATPL once you've become an LCR co-pilot I'd recommend going onto any of the big jets doing your six years return of service and getting out as quickly as possible at the end, using your ELC to do the ATPL ground school exams whilst stuck down route somewhere.

[SASless]

Do you reckon if one does the RAF ME thing....no matter which bus you find yourself sat in the front of....does a good job....gets good Eval's....obtains your Civvie License on whatever you can.....at the end of you obligated service...your chances for civvie employment will be improved? Likewise....if at the end of your obligated service the grass isn't greener or the Airline Industry is on its Heels....you can decide to stay in the RAF until things do pick back up.