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Dak Man
16th Sep 2013, 18:35
Thoughts with DC people and especially those affected.

TOWTEAMBASE
16th Sep 2013, 18:38
WTF is happening to this world full stop !!!

mixture
16th Sep 2013, 18:44
WTF is happening in DC?

Simple really... yet more Americans with guns.

The age old story repeating itself, and too much lobbying by the pro-gun lobby means nothing will ever get done about it.

Its far to easy for individuals to accumulate enough guns to start a small army in America. Until such time as they realise more effective controls are needed, I've very little sympathy for these events because they are so utterly predictable and avoidable.

con-pilot
16th Sep 2013, 18:45
So far confusion is primary issue. There are a hell of a lot more questions than answers so far.

Sadly, the only thing that is confirmed, is that there are twelve fatalities.

Still a lot of confusion whether there were one or three suspects. My guess is just one. Just as with eye witnesses in aircraft accidents, sometimes eye witnesses testimony should be taken with a grain a of salt.

But, like I posted, still a lot of questions that need be answered.

con-pilot
16th Sep 2013, 18:47
Simple really... yet more Americans with guns.

The age old story repeating itself, and too much lobbying by the pro-gun lobby means nothing will ever get done about it.

Noted. Thank you for contributing zero to this ongoing event.

Lonewolf_50
16th Sep 2013, 18:50
WTF is happening in DC? The age old story repeating itself, and too much lobbying by the pro-gun lobby means nothing will ever get done about it.
I note it only took a couple of posts for the standard, kneejerk response nitwits of foreign persuasion to chime in.

You keep it classy, mixture. Oh, wait, that's beyond you.

A note for the ignorant and uninformed alike:
SouthEast Washington DC has been, for a long time, the worst part of that city. If you go back to when DC was the US per capita murder capital of the US, which isn't that long ago, the bulk of the murders went down in that blighted quarter of the city. I have been told that in the past decade a bit of gentrification has taken place, but it comes as no surpirse to me that bad news comes from that sector. Getting in and out of the Navy Yard was never a good day. You kept your head on a swivel, due to the low rent nature of the neighborhood. (Same was true for the area over the fence from the Naval Base in San Diego (32d street) which was the intersection of the turf of three local San Diego criminal gangs. Not sure if that ever got cleane dup, but I doubt it).

Before the viral foaming at the mouth internet showed up, such an event wan't uncommon in that part of the city, though it was usually gangsta on gangsta.

What's behind this one remains to be seen. If they catch any of the perps alive, we may find out.

PTT
16th Sep 2013, 19:19
Regardless of the politics I'm sure our thoughts are with all involved, and I hope this is brought to a swift and bloodless conclusion.

DX Wombat
16th Sep 2013, 19:27
Hear, hear PTT.

mixture
16th Sep 2013, 19:28
Ever stopped to think that the rest of the western world had a point when it brought in some (any) sort of gun controls?


Indeed.

9,000+ homicides by firearm in the USA in 2012.

A figure which is only surpassed by....

Venezuela, Mexico,Colombia,Brazil.

And you share the figures in the thousands with...

South Africa, Philippines, Jamaica, India,Honduras, Guatamala, El Salvador, Ecuador, Dominican Republic,Bangladesh, Argentina.

Other than South Africa at almost 8,000... the rest are even many thousands less than USA.

Lonewolf_50
16th Sep 2013, 19:30
Ever stopped to think that the rest of the western world had a point when it brought in some (any) sort of gun controls?
1. What you do in your country is your business. What we do in our country is ours. Piss off, mate.

2. I note that you all prefer to be subjects, not citizens. Your choice, and no skin off of my back.

3. mixture, your inability to keep it classy is noted. No surprise.

PTT: what is unclear is how many were in on it. Reports of one to three involved. Based on what happened with Hassan at Fort Hood, I hope that the gunmen are killed, not captured. The Hassan farce-trial does not need repeating. For that matter, the Malvo trial-farce need not be gone through again. However, if they capture any in on this, the hype will provide various media sorts with job material.

Note: for the past two years, Active Shooter training has been mandatory at federal installations. I wonder if it aided, or hurt, the folks at the Navy Yard.

News reports (take with a grain or two of salt) reported "panic" which is not quite what is the aim of the training. Then again, I think most people going to work at the Navy yard believed "it can't happen here" so some people doubtless lost their heads. It's an understandable reaction.

WARNING< AVIATION CONTENT

I am not sure I understand why air traffic was stopped at the airport. Seems to me an overreaction. (I am quite familiar with the area. )

con-pilot
16th Sep 2013, 19:38
...and the same old knee-jerk reaction from the 'you don't understand guns and Amerikans' brigade
Ever stopped to think that the rest of the western world had a point when it brought in some (any) sort of gun controls?

...did'nt think so

Another post with zero content about this incident.

Thank you very little.

Your complete lack of concerns and/or best wishes for those injured and killed is noted.

MG23
16th Sep 2013, 19:40
9,000+ homicides by firearm in the USA in 2012.

So it's OK to kill people so long as you don't use a gun?

The US murder rate has been declining for years, while gun ownership continues to rise. The areas with the lowest murder rates also tend to be the areas with the least restrictive gun laws. If I remember correctly, prisons have some of the highest murder rates in the country, worse even than DC, and they don't let inmates buy guns.

And, last I read, about 50% of murders were drug gangs fighting over turf, so they're hardly going to stop shooting each other just because the government says 'Guns are Icky!'

John Marsh
16th Sep 2013, 19:46
Lonewolf 50:

I am not sure I understand why air traffic was stopped at the airport. Seems to me an overreaction. (I am quite familiar with the area. ) Heavy helicopter traffic locally, according to BBC coverage. One flight apparently a medevac from the roof.

Lonewolf_50
16th Sep 2013, 19:52
Thank you John Marsh, that perspective makes more sense.

MG23: last set of stats I looked at had about half of gun deaths as suicides. Interesting and very sad stat. :suspect:

500N
16th Sep 2013, 19:53
Sorry to hear about another incident.

Were these shootings inside the Navy Yard or outside it ?

500N
16th Sep 2013, 20:02
"about half of gun deaths as suicides"

I think that is half of all suicides are by gun, particularly hand gun.

glad rag
16th Sep 2013, 20:10
Bombs kill 86 in Baghdad as sectarian violence spreads

Bombs kill 86 in Baghdad as sectarian violence spreads | Reuters (http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/08/28/us-iraq-violence-idUSBRE97R07J20130828)


Go on then I dare you to ask what this has to do with the US.


:ugh:

Lonewolf_50
16th Sep 2013, 20:26
Bombs kill 86 in Baghdad as sectarian violence spreads
Bombs kill 86 in Baghdad as sectarian violence spreads | Reuters (http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/08/28/us-iraq-violence-idUSBRE97R07J20130828)
Go on then I dare you to ask what this has to do with the US. :ugh:
What's that got to do with some feckwit shooting up the Navy Yard in Washington, DC? That is the topic of this thread.

If you want to comment on US Politics, there is a hamster wheel for that. If you want to point out that Iraqis are better than Americans at killing one another in large groups, using bombs, maybe you have a point ... :confused: (McVeigh aside ...).

One of a number of publicly available training modules for "Active Shooter" for anyone interested. (http://www.dhs.gov/active-shooter-preparedness)

I don't think they have one for "active bomber" so no link is provided.

500N: apparently, at the Navy Yard itself.

500N
16th Sep 2013, 20:30
Thanks Lone Wolf.


"If you want to comment on us US Politics, there is a hamster wheel for that."

+ 1


(Or start a separate US gun thread again).

Tankertrashnav
16th Sep 2013, 20:34
As I assume that there is fairly tight security at the entrances to the Navy Yard, has it been established if those responsible for the shootings were either military or civilian personnel employed within the base, and entitled to be carrying arms? In short is this another Fort Hood scenario?

con-pilot
16th Sep 2013, 20:35
Go on then I dare you to ask what this has to do with the US.


Boy, posts with zero contents and/or that do not make a bit of sense is growing.

There are already threads about Iraq. Take your political nonsense there.

There are also threads about guns in the US. You don't like our weapon laws, take your crap there or start a new 'we hate guns and Americans' thread.

:rolleyes:

All that is known at this time is that the suspect, now deceased, somehow brought at least one weapon onto a 'no weapons' allowed military installation, managed to gain access into a tight security building where he shot and killed 12 people.

We do not who this person is at this time, except his name. He could be a member of the US Military, he could be ex-military, he may have not contection to the military, we don't know.

He could have been issued his weapons as part of his job, we don't know. It could be that he was required to carry a weapon, we don't know.

We don't know what has really happened and the reason behind the attack.


But that the hell sure has not prevented some here from speaking out of their arses, spouting off about things they've not a clue about, using the bodies of the dead to make cheap political points about gun control.

WTF is right. :ugh:

superq7
16th Sep 2013, 20:38
That's what I thought as soon as I saw the headline,doesn't make any better either way. My thoughts are with you.

DX Wombat
16th Sep 2013, 20:39
The latest (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-24120333) from the BBC.

yotty
16th Sep 2013, 20:39
Plus ca change..... :hmm:

Airborne Aircrew
16th Sep 2013, 20:40
Lonewolf:


Note: for the past two years, Active Shooter training has been mandatory at federal installations. I wonder if it aided, or hurt, the folks at the Navy Yard.

One always wonders why "Active Shooter Training" always seems to be "try and hide so the bad chap doesn't see you" rather than "The rest of you hide while the designated individuals confront the threat with force of arms"... Odd that, how they'd rather people die on their knees....

Lonewolf_50
16th Sep 2013, 20:47
AA, you aren't allowed to bring firearms onto a federal reservation. Hence, the training presumes all are unarmed. Don't get me started ... :mad:

Last I heard from the news, the fellow (or one of the fellows) was a contractor, 34 yrs old, who worked on the installation.
Authorities identified him as Aaron Alexis, 34, a discharged naval petty officer from Texas who was working as a civilian contractor.

con-pilot
16th Sep 2013, 20:48
Thank you DX, that is about the same we are hearing and seeing here. Latest news, which the BBC report included, is that one of the other two suspects has been found and cleared of any involvement.

Depending on which news source one views, the remaining suspect may or may not actually exist. The search is still ongoing and when the security tapes are completely reviewed we will know for sure if there really was more than one suspect.

I've also not heard if the original suspect was killed by responding police or committed suicide. One of the responding police officers that was involved in a shootout with the suspect was wounded, but is expected to recover and has undergone surgery.

500N
16th Sep 2013, 20:49
"Active Shooter training has been mandatory at federal installations"

Who is that for ?

I saw someone say that the Navy dock yard was a no weapon installation.

So are we talking the Guards ?


AA
You know they want us to die on our knees, unarmed :O

Lonewolf_50
16th Sep 2013, 20:52
Active Shooter training means " you are somone working in an office and some feckwit shows up and begins shooting the place up."
(Used to happen in US Post Offices with some frequency, a few decades ago).

Most of the people at the Navy Yard aren't armed security guards. They are a mix of Navy, Civilian, and Contractor folks doing various work for the Navy.

In time, who this shooting person is will be spewed out by the media. His family will be under siege about now, wherever they live ...

glad rag
16th Sep 2013, 20:53
What's that got to do with some feckwit shooting up the Navy Yard in Washington, DC? That is the topic of this thread.

If you want to comment on US Politics, there is a hamster wheel for that. If you want to point out that Iraqis are better than Americans at killing one another in large groups, using bombs, maybe you have a point ... :confused: (McVeigh aside ...).

One of a number of publicly available training modules for "Active Shooter" for anyone interested. (http://www.dhs.gov/active-shooter-preparedness)

I don't think they have one for "active bomber" so no link is provided.

500N: apparently, at the Navy Yard itself.

Nope.

You just don't get it do you.

You administrations, over the last decades, have done nothing but ferment slow burning hatred within your society.

And despite what many on here have been decried for saying, you, the people, just fell for the oldPotomac "one/two"

500N
16th Sep 2013, 20:55
"In time, who this shooting person is will be spewed out by the media. His family will be under siege about now, wherever they live ."

I noticed they have already called up his Navy History and
got a quote from his Aunt.

Lonewolf_50
16th Sep 2013, 20:57
gladrag: how about you go and grind your axe in the US Politics Hamsterwheel. Your paranoia does this thread no good. I am keenly aware of the balkanization of American "civil" society. This isn't the thread to discuss it in.

con-pilot
16th Sep 2013, 20:58
Who is that for ?


For every single person that works or lives on any US Government installation, including Military bases that are usually full of men and women that are combat trained. The exceptions are either the civilian/military police/federal LEOs.

At least federal LEOs used to be allowed to have their weapons on them while in their offices and/or federal buildings. I don't know if they can currently, it would not surprise me that the very people that are highly trained to use guns in their and other's defense cannot carry their weapons at all times.

About nothing surprises me anymore.

Airborne Aircrew
16th Sep 2013, 21:03
Lonewolf:

AA, you aren't allowed to bring firearms onto a federal reservation. Hence, the training presumes all are unarmed. Don't get me started ...

I know... and I work in a place that has valid security concerns that has a no weapons policy.... So we hide too...

brickhistory
16th Sep 2013, 21:14
At least federal LEOs used to be allowed to have their weapons on them
while in their offices and/or federal buildings.


Depends. Some agencies make 'visiting' LEOs check their weapons.

DC has very strict gun laws - Heller v. DC just recently won DC (only) citizens the right to possess firearms. And DC prohibits 'assualt rifles' completely.

No non-LEO personnel may carry a personal firearm based upon the decision of the installation commander (and nearly 100% of those commanders do not allow for such carry even if legal in the state). Recent DC experience showed a 100% "no" ability for military installations.

Not to mention violent assualt and murder are against the law.

Imagine that, a criminal/nut job/whatever didn't obey any of dozens of laws while those that do are sheeple for the slaughter.

And those that 'know better' than us simple U.S. folks are quick to demonstrate their superiority.

To which I refer you to the "photos" thread where you will see some ppruners legally enjoying some shooting sport while one carried, legally and safely, several firearms and 1,200 rounds 950 miles (one way) across only two states to enjoy said safe shooting.

Curious as to why those illegal shooters pick places where they can be assured of some vital breathing room to operate their trigger(s) while knowing it will take time for armed response to reach them.

con-pilot
16th Sep 2013, 21:25
Curious as to why those illegal shooters pick places where they can be assured of some vital breathing room to operate their trigger(s) while knowing it will take time for armed response to reach them.


You mean like where Drummer Rigby was slaughtered in England by two Muslims, one armed with a gun.

Then they stood around for over 20 minutes waiting for an armed response to show up.

Understand the two Muslims are having a bit of a teeth problem while in prison. What a shame.

500N
16th Sep 2013, 21:34
Con

That description sounds sufficiently like Gun control to me,
where only the Crims have guns !


Luckily the UK has gutsy women who are willing and able
to confront such people :(

Dak Man
16th Sep 2013, 21:38
Back on thread

A gunman who died after killing 12 people at a naval installation in Washington DC has been identified as a former Navy serviceman.

Aaron Alexis, 34, of Fort Worth, Texas, was killed at the scene at Washington Navy Yard in the US capital.

con-pilot
16th Sep 2013, 21:45
That description sounds sufficiently like Gun control to me,
where only the Crims have guns !


Yes, and that is why something like 90% of all murderers are gang/drug related. Remove those crimes and it is an entirely different picture.

However, this incident today was not gang related. Drug related, we don't know yet.

A sad event and my heart goes out to the families of all involved.



On a side note, an average of 6.6 people are killed every hour in traffic deaths in the US. I feel sad for those families as well.

500N
16th Sep 2013, 22:15
Looks like they have identified who he was.

He was kicked out of the navy 2 years ago for discharging a firearm
when cleaning it at home which he was charged for.

Airborne Aircrew
16th Sep 2013, 22:20
500N:

Correct me if I'm wrong but I seem to remember that the first part of cleaning your weapon is to clear it... If you don't it can be difficult to put the pull-through down the barrel.... :ugh:

500N
16th Sep 2013, 22:23
AA

Yep.

What's the betting he either forgot to clear it OR the other fatal mistake
of clearing it but leaving the loaded Mag on with the usual consequences
afterwards !

Airborne Aircrew
17th Sep 2013, 00:52
500N:

I've never understood how you can manage the latter... If you, as I was trained, cock three times, look inside in order mitigate a broken extractor or ejector and then fire off the action, I fail to see how you can miss the two or three rounds coming out depending upon the weapon's state before you began the process.

I'm far from perfect but I have never NDed a weapon - even with blanks...

500N
17th Sep 2013, 00:57
AA

Neither have had a UD or ND.

Re how it is done, probably leave mag on, clean gun,
put gun back together, they aren't thinking, cock it
and pull the trigger.

Or lock the action back and it lets go, chambering a round ?

You'd have to ask someone !!!

SASless
17th Sep 2013, 02:47
At least federal LEOs used to be allowed to have their weapons on them
while in their offices and/or federal buildings.

The Naval Investigative Service....now the NCIS....instituted a policy that all Special Agents would lock their Pistols in Pistol Safes whenever working in the office. The Management refused to hear of any objections as they were very concerned that might be an Accidental Discharge or stolen weapon.

At the NISHQ in Suitland, Maryland.....two of our Agents were kidnapped by a fellow and removed from the Building. They were later released unharmed.

The next day....the Pistol Safes were removed upon a new Policy Letter being issued.

Krystal n chips
17th Sep 2013, 05:01
" The Management refused to hear of any objections as they were very concerned that might be an Accidental Discharge or stolen weapon.

At the NISHQ in Suitland, Maryland.....two of our Agents were kidnapped by a fellow and removed from the Building. They were later released unharmed.


Thank you for that post.....speaks volumes as they say.

ExRAFRadar
17th Sep 2013, 05:29
Thoughts and prayers with the families of those hurt/killed. As usual a terrible thing.

Lon More
17th Sep 2013, 05:47
He was kicked out of the navy 2 years ago for discharging a firearm
when cleaning it at home which he was charged for
Don't know if that was the reason for his discharge from the Reserve.
Beeb also quotes another incident of shooting out a vehicle's tyres in 2004.
Con=pilot wrote He could have been issued his weapons as part of his job, we don't know. It could be that he was required to carry a weapon
Hopefully not, in the light of the above.

PLovett
17th Sep 2013, 06:17
As to why someone with no previous tendencies to commit mass murder suddenly does so I can only think of an observation I made when I was in legal practice as a defence lawyer. It used to intrigue me why some of my clients had suddenly committed an offence (not murder) when they had no previous criminal history. I came to the conclusion that if someone was under pressure (from whatever reason) long enough they would react with abnormal behaviour. That could manifest itself by the classic mid-life crisis stuff (ditch the wife, chase young women, buy a sport car, resign the job, take drugs etc.) or in crime. Some years later I was talking to a psychologist who was part of the court staff on a circuit court. She confirmed my observation and said there was a term for it, which I have totally forgotten.

From what I have read and heard about many of the recent mass shootings in the USA this seems to have played a major role in that all of them appear to have been under some form of social pressure for some time. Why guns? I don't subscribe to the presence of them will result in high gun crime otherwise every cuckoo clock in Switzerland would have been shot by now. However, another observation from afar is that there appears to be a culture of direct action that pervades US history and thinking. Think of the classic western thing of "......a mans gotta do what a mans gotta do......" and avenge those wrongs not by going to your local law enforcement but reaching for ones weapon.

I recently came across this on another forum where one US resident was saying how easily it would be to unseat the government by armed uprising. He did not appear to be impressed by the response that it would be easier to vote them out of government given that there was still a functioning democracy in the US. He was very anti-Obama. I have also noted that US foreign policy often takes the same line in reaching for armed intervention as a first step rather than exhausting the diplomatic process first. I think this was most evident in Granada and Panama.

When you have a culture of direct action, a lot of social pressure from societal change creating enormous stress and access to firearms then you will get aberrant behaviour. This is not a criticism of the US generally or specifically, merely an observation from someone far removed from those shores.

500N
17th Sep 2013, 06:23
"I recently came across this on another forum where one US resident was saying how easily it would be to unseat the government by armed uprising."

Did he have any military training ?

I think he might be surprised how hard it would be to unseat it
unless you had the whole US military on your side.

Just my HO.

PLovett
17th Sep 2013, 06:43
500N,

I believe he had and you have reflected my thoughts exactly. I wasn't prepared to entertain him with his ideas other than to point out democracy has easier options. He never responded to that.

bcgallacher
17th Sep 2013, 06:47
Another pointless debate on American gun culture - these incidents will keep happening as they have been doing in the past. There is no answer to the problem - the guns,hundreds of millions of them,are already in US society and no new laws are going to get rid of them. Americans have got to the stage that they feel the need to own a gun to protect themselves from other gun owners!
I am fortunate to live in a society where there are few guns,where our policemen are unarmed and have no desire to change that. There is gun crime in our society - most as in the USA, in drug related gangs,most victims and perpetrators are from what are euphemistically called our 'ethnic minorities' If carrying a firearm is protection why are about 70 policemen a year shot in the USA?The rest of the developed world are happy that events such as this are relatively rare outside the USA - We have just as many nutters but have made it more difficult to obtain the means to carry out mass slaughter.When some states are training and encouraging teachers to carry firearms in the classroom the situation would appear to have got out of hand. To those that defend the laws that have resulted in these massacres - perhaps one day it may be one of your close relatives that becomes another statistic from a school or college mass shooting. As I have stated,nothing can be done to stop these events from happening on a regular basis.All we can do is feel sorrow for the victims and families of yet another mindless massacre.

500N
17th Sep 2013, 06:54
bcg

"Americans have got to the stage that they feel the need to own a gun to protect themselves from other gun owners!"

Incorrect

from other ILLEGAL gun owners or crims that take part in crimes
like break and enter, assault etc.

Legal Gun owners in general are not the problem and a lot
of guns are used for Target shooting and hunting.

Octopussy2
17th Sep 2013, 07:24
As with all the other massacres, a terrible thing. At least (AFAIK) no children were killed this time.

bcgallacher
17th Sep 2013, 07:32
500N
You have missed the point - it is irrelevant whether the gun is 'legal'-you are trying to protect yourself from another person with a gun.What is illegal in one state can be legal in another. The fact is that you are just as dead if you are shot with a legal or illegal firearm.

Airborne Aircrew
17th Sep 2013, 11:56
bc:

You have missed the point - it is irrelevant whether the gun is 'legal'-you are trying to protect yourself from another person with a gun.That's actually a tad inaccurate. I and most others here in the USA keep guns to protect ourselves and families against anyone who would do us harm in any fashion. If someone enters my house and threatens me with a baseball bat they will experience a hail of 9mm 115gr Jacketed Hollow Points, simple as that. I will not be trotting back to the games room to get my baseball bat.

The reason the gun is the weapon of choice is exactly why the intruder's choice of weapon in the para above was a bad decision - don't go into a fight at a disadvantage. Some would say that only serves to cause an "arms race" of sorts. It doesn't where the general public are concerned. Where gang warfare is prevalent then I would be inclined to agree but those gang bangers don't usually waste their time housebreaking - far greater profits in drugs. The people who do the housebreaking arm themselves with easily concealed weapons which limits them, pretty much, to handguns and generally have the expectation that they will march in unmolested. Illogical, but I'm not here to worry about their grasp of basic probabilities but rather to ensure that I am at least as well armed and far better prepared to meet them than they are me.

bcgallacher
17th Sep 2013, 12:13
You are proving my point - you are arming yourself primarily against someone else with a gun.

Lonewolf_50
17th Sep 2013, 12:13
The security officer at the Navy Yard may have some internal issues to address. Authorities said they believe that Alexis then picked up two other weapons — a handgun and an AR-15-style assault weapon — during the shooting spree, taking the sidearm from a police officer he shot and another from a gunsafe or other secure location.
A curious turn of events: It started with a shotgun, and he then got more weapons from the security forces on the installation.

As to his previous events: he had been charged with discharge of a firearm in Fort Worth but it was not formally charged.
Alexis told police he was cleaning his gun while he was cooking, and his hands were slippery. Prosecutors determined that there wasn’t enough evidence of recklessness to bring a case.
He may have told police the truth, and he may not have.
The Seattle event was before he joined the Navy. Interesting to note that the charges were dropped. Maybe that's why it didn't turn up when he enlisted. No paper trail.
In 2004, Alexis was charged with malicious mischief by Seattle police after he shot out the tires of a construction workers vehicle. Those charges were dropped, but a Seattle officer said Alexis admitted to shooting the vehicle because the worker had disrespected him. Alexis told the officer he was present during the events of 9/11 and that they had "disturbed" him, according the Seattle PD incident report. (http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i//MSNBC/Sections/NEWS/4145_001.pdf)
He's from NYC. (Manhattan? Queens? Hard to say)
Besides the grieving victims' families, I feel for his family.

What we know about alleged shooter Aaron Alexis - Investigations (http://investigations.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/09/16/20527513-what-we-know-about-alleged-shooter-aaron-alexis?lite)

@bcg:
You don't seem to get it. Home invasions come in a variety of forms. A firearm is a great way to scare them off if they aren't armed with firearms.
The point is not to get into a duel, the point is to take control of a situation. Best result is the perp runs off and you don't have to shoot anyone.

EDIT 2:
Typical nitwit foreigner comments. (http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/09/16/20526061-russian-official-blames-dc-shooting-on-american-exceptionalism?lite) Some of you ought to go and have tea with that gent, in Moscow.

bcgallacher
17th Sep 2013, 12:17
I should have added that it is unlikely that a housebreaker in my neck of the woods would be armed with a gun for 2 reasons - he is unlikely to come up against a home owner with a gun and as I stated the difficulty in obtaining a handgun.

Airborne Aircrew
17th Sep 2013, 12:41
bc:

You are proving my point - you are arming yourself primarily against someone else with a gun. I suppose your lack of comprehension shouldn't surprise me bearing in mind your stance on this subject. Please tell me where this says anything about arming myself against people with guns:-

I and most others here in the USA keep guns to protect ourselves and families against anyone who would do us harm in any fashion. If someone enters my house and threatens me with a baseball bat they will experience a hail of 9mm 115gr Jacketed Hollow Points, simple as that. I will not be trotting back to the games room to get my baseball bat.I really couldn't be clearer...

The point about home invaders being limited to handguns refers only to those who chose to carry guns and the context of the paragraph was regarding a perceived "arms race". Many home invasions are carried out with knives, baseball bats, 4x2's etc.

Hope that helps...

rgbrock1
17th Sep 2013, 12:52
As far as unarmed military personnel on any given installation is concerned: it is indeed true that the vast majority of the inhabitants of a military installation must remain unarmed. (Except for when on training maneuvers in the field. Then said military personnel are Very Armed.) However, at least in the Army, Military Police (MP's) are ALWAYS armed. Locked and loaded at all times.

Airborne Aircrew
17th Sep 2013, 12:58
It's a good job this stuff never happens in Europe eh?

Oh, wait...

Suspected game poacher in Austria shot and wounded 2 policeman and an ambulanceman and took a 3rd policeman hostage

Link (http://www.breakingnews.com/topic/austria)

Tut tut... Naughty man...

Lonewolf_50
17th Sep 2013, 12:59
For all the sadness and misery from this event, something pretty cool happened.

Man leads blind co-worker to safety. (http://www.today.com/news/man-who-led-blind-coworker-navy-yard-shooting-he-was-4B11180866)

Good people are all over. Two thumb up! :ok: :ok:

TWT
17th Sep 2013, 13:21
He's a HERO for helping a blind colleague ? Whatever next ? It would be a natural instinct in 99% of the population to do that.

Airborne Aircrew
17th Sep 2013, 13:37
Here we go again...

My radio is reporting that the shooter has been being treated for mental problems, (on top of his known anger issues), by the Veterans Administration for over a year. The Navy chose not to label him as "unfit" because he'd lose his security clearance.

Same pattern as nearly every other mass shooting. People know there is a problem with someone but no-one takes any action.

bcgallacher
17th Sep 2013, 14:55
AA
Your reference to Austria is childish to say the least - with 30,000 gunshot fatalities a year in the USA including 9000+ homicides against 18 in Austria this event is a rarity in Austria,while similar events are a daily occurrence in the USA.
No one is saying that gun crime does not exist in other developed countries but it is not in any way comparable to the USA. Like it or not that is a fact.

rgbrock1
17th Sep 2013, 15:10
bcgallacher:

The gun homicides you provide are indeed accurate. However, would you also like to see the demographics behind such homicides? Would be a bit surprising. Er, maybe not.

Shack37
17th Sep 2013, 15:35
He's a HERO for helping a blind colleague ? Whatever next ? It would be a natural instinct in 99% of the population to do that.


Yes he is a HERO. As for 99% of the population having a natural instinct to do that, in today's me, me, me society, I don't think so and in that situation, no way.

Airborne Aircrew
17th Sep 2013, 15:49
bc:

while similar events are a daily occurrence in the USAWrong... An individual "going off" on multiple unrelated individuals is not a "daily occurrence"... Don't try making things into that which they aren't... It just makes you look a bit silly.

No one is saying that gun crime does not exist in other developed countries but it is not in any way comparable to the USA. Like it or not that is a fact. Wrong again sunshine... If you take a look at the figures the USA relatively "normal" compared to Europe in these matters...

Link (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/timeline-worst-mass-shootings-globe-article-1.1220608)

Of the 22 worst events in the last two decades only eight are in the USA with nine taking place in Europe and the rest across the rest of the world. The USA isn't in the top three of deaths caused by these events. It trails Norway, (77), South Korea, (57) and Australia, (35).

Time to bow out gracefully?

Lonewolf_50
17th Sep 2013, 16:25
TWT:
I didn't say "hero" but I suppose the media tossed that term in. Hyperbole seems to be their business. :p

Denigrate him if you like, he done good. A whole lot of other people were running and taking care of number 1. Understandable reaction. This fella took care of more than just himself in a dangerous situation.

Two thumbs up. :ok::ok:

Lonewolf_50
17th Sep 2013, 16:33
bcg:

home invasion: take a look at what's at stake (http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/09/17/20541884-14-year-old-girl-abducted-in-georgia-robbery-by-dog-killers?lite)

There are all sorts of scum like that prowling about ... you can't wish that away.

EDIT:
Sorry for the mix up. The link I intended to provide was:
14-year-old girl abducted in Georgia robbery by dog killers - U.S. News (http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/09/17/20541884-14-year-old-girl-abducted-in-georgia-robbery-by-dog-killers?lite)

My bad. :ugh: Thanks 500N. :ok:

500N
17th Sep 2013, 16:37
Lonewolf

Check the link.

rgbrock1
17th Sep 2013, 16:58
Did someone say "home invasion"

For the epitome of home invasion might I suggest doing a google, or your search engine of choice, on "cheshire, CT home invasion."

What happened in Cheshire back in '07 I can be damn sure would not happen to my wife, nor to my kids when they stay over with us. Because ANY and ALL of those uninvited to my home shall be shot dead upon entry.

bcgallacher
17th Sep 2013, 17:20
AA - Again I think you are being a little ingenuous - the figures you give are for single events,try adding the fatalities from all the events in each country. In my country there has been one school massacre killing I think 23 - how many in the USA?

con-pilot
17th Sep 2013, 17:21
You are proving my point - you are arming yourself primarily against someone else with a gun.

No, not really. I have guns in my home now, for protection from those that may wish to harm my family and/or me.

As one can tell looking at my profile to the left of this post, I'm 66 years old. While I still have good, close to excellent upper body strength, my legs are my weakness. So a young 20 something male most possibly could beat me to death with a baseball bat, tire iron or any other such type of weapon. Not to mention that any intruder may have a gun.

The guns I now have makes me equal to any person that dares to enter my home to harm us. One could say it is very cheap life insurance.

But you don't like guns, fine with me, to each their own.

Also must admit, that seeing that nearly 90 percent of all gun deaths in the US are gang/drug related, I'm not overly worried about someone breaking into my home with a gun.

However,,,,,,,,

As I posted on an earlier thread about guns, if someone is so stupid to ignore the miniature US Marshal badges on our vehicles, ignore the signs showing that the house has an alarm system, ignores all three large dogs and still tries to break in, well, then some people are just too stupid to let live.

500N
17th Sep 2013, 17:24
Kind of says it all

http://i44.tinypic.com/9jdfup.jpg

con-pilot
17th Sep 2013, 17:25
I just love that sign. :p

500N
17th Sep 2013, 17:29
So do I which is why I keep a copy.

I also like this sign. Which is appropriate for some on the threads
of this forum :O

http://i42.tinypic.com/29b1ox5.jpg

Dak Man
17th Sep 2013, 17:33
So once again the narrative changes, away from Syria and back to the attack on the 2nd amendment. IIRC a week or so back I said that my American friends should be careful and watch their backs..................some might say prophetic, I would say logical.

bcgallacher
17th Sep 2013, 17:41
Some figures to ponder on. UK gun deaths in 2011 - 51,about one per week.In USA same year 83 per DAY. Do you not think something is very wrong with your society? I cannot believe that any advanced country would be arming school teachers in order to protect the children.

Dak Man
17th Sep 2013, 17:47
BCG, out of those 83/day, how many were gang/drug related and how many legally owned weapons were involved?

I don't know the answer but it would be good to know in order to ensure that and apples Vs apples argument was being used.

I'm not an American and I don't live in America, neither am I a gun owner. However I fully support the principle of the second amendment.

500N
17th Sep 2013, 17:52
Lone

No, I wouldn't, but some do. But then again, anything goes in
Redneck country !!!

Dushan
17th Sep 2013, 17:53
Just returned form a lovely trip to Jackson Hole, Wyoming. See picture thread for some of the activities we partook in.

Firearms are a natural sight in stores, and I suspect a number of people conceal carry.

The biggest story in the local paper was that a body was discovered in a nearby marsh and foul play was suspected. The last paragraph in the story mentioned that the last murder in the area was in 2007 when a husband killed his wife and subsequently killed himself.

Seems like a pretty safe place to me.

Oh, and people are very polite.

Dushan
17th Sep 2013, 17:54
Some figures to ponder on. UK gun deaths in 2011 - 51,about one per week.In USA same year 83 per DAY. Do you not think something is very wrong with your society? I cannot believe that any advanced country would be arming school teachers in order to protect the children.

What's the number when the word "gun" is eliminated?

Mr Chips
17th Sep 2013, 18:00
Oh yay, another "bash the Americans for having Guns" thread. oh wait, it is actually a thread about a single incident that has happened today.

To our American friends so sorry to hear this has happened, thoughts of course with all those affected.

On behalf of the UK, I'm sorry that some people find it necessary to preach at you

Some figures to ponder on. UK gun deaths in 2011 - 51,about one per week Weird, considering we in the UK have such strict gun laws..... :hmm:

Airborne Aircrew
17th Sep 2013, 18:18
bc:

AA - Again I think you are being a little ingenuous - the figures you give are for single events,try adding the fatalities from all the events in each country. In my country there has been one school massacre killing I think 23 - how many in the USA? Now who's being disingenuous. Scotland has a population of 5.29M, the USA 313.9M. The US population is 59.34 times the size of Scotland. Using your figure of 23, for the USA to be more dangerous to schoolchildren in the supposed safety of their schools the USA would need to exceed 1364.82 children killed.

Using this link (http://www.sfgate.com/crime/article/Deadliest-U-S-school-shootings-3454376.php), (which I believe to be fair), I added up the toll. I ignored university shootings since you are clearly playing "the children" card and I added in Sandy Hook which came the day the report was written. Sad as it is I come up with a maximum total of 62 school children killed by shooters since 1966. I don't really need to go on do I? It's funny how comparing apples to oranges distorts your opinions isn't it?

You're not having a good day... Have a couple of beers and a good night's sleep and try again tomorrow there's a good lad... :ok:

Lonewolf_50
17th Sep 2013, 18:35
Police arrest man accused of throwing firecrackers near White House - NBC Politics (http://nbcpolitics.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/09/16/20529577-police-arrest-man-accused-of-throwing-firecrackers-near-white-house?lite)

Not too long after the guy at the Navy yard went batshit, we have the above brain surgeon tossing firecrackers at the White House.

Was it something in the water yesterday? :confused:

rgbrock1
17th Sep 2013, 18:43
66% of all gun homicides in the U.S. are suicides. (Source: Center for Disease Control, FBI)

93% of the remainder of gun homicides in the U.S. are gang-related. (Source: FBI, National Institute of Justice)

rgbrock1
17th Sep 2013, 18:44
Lonewolf:

Nothing in the water. Check the current phase of the moon!!!!!

(Hint: Lunatics)

wings folded
17th Sep 2013, 18:47
On behalf of the UK, I'm sorry that some people find it necessary to preach at you

You are free to express a personal sorrow, but you have absolutely no authority to claim to be writing "on behalf of the UK"

Mr Chips
17th Sep 2013, 19:24
Oh Wings Folded, get over yourself. I wasn't really claiming to represent the UK

Jeez :ugh:

wings folded
17th Sep 2013, 19:28
Can we assume that you do not really mean everything else that you post?

TWT
17th Sep 2013, 19:31
TWT:
I didn't say "hero" but I suppose the media tossed that term in. Hyperbole seems to be their business. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/tongue.gif
Indeed,I was referring to that link you quoted,in which the media branded him a hero.I'm not denigrating him,he did well.

And Shack37,I have more faith in people than you it seems.The blind gentleman was not a stranger,he worked at the same place.
mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Mr Chips
17th Sep 2013, 19:38
Wings folded

I am really sorry that this incident happened
I am really sorry that lives were lost
I am really sorry that idiots from the UK find it necessary to hijack threads such as these to preach at the Americans about their gun laws
I am really sorry that those idiots quote gun death stats for the UK while conveniently ignoring the fact that the UK supposedly has strict gun laws
I am really sorry that you find it necessary to microanalyse posts

con-pilot
17th Sep 2013, 19:46
would you actually display a sign like that? (question open to everyone)

In the US? Probably not, unless they were like you, then probably yes. :p








You left yourself wide open for that one. :E

bcgallacher
17th Sep 2013, 20:34
AA
Now you really are flailing around with figures - there are an average of 8 children a day shot dead in the USA - one incident in Scotland in 1996 caused - I must correct my figure - the deaths of 16 children and one teacher- hardly comparable on any numerical basis.These deaths were caused by legally held weapons. If you cannot admit that there is a gun death problem in the USA that far exceeds that of any developed country you are in an acute state of denial. Whether it is drug dealers,gang members or innocent members of society is irrelevant,you have too many people being killed by guns.

wings folded
17th Sep 2013, 20:38
I am really sorry that this incident happened

I find it sad

I am really sorry that lives were lost


I find it sad.


I am really sorry that idiots from the UK find it necessary to hijack threads such as these to preach at the Americans about their gun laws


The "idiots from the UK" are raising perfectly pertinent points in the context of deaths by gunfire. There is no sense in preaching to the Americans, nor in Americans preaching to others. Deaths from firearms numbers are a matter of record in the UK and in the USA.


I am really sorry that those idiots quote gun death stats for the UK while conveniently ignoring the fact that the UK supposedly has strict gun laws


The "idiots" in question give you the relevant numbers. They do not conveniently ignore UK legislation on gun ownership; on the contrary, they highlight the implicit correlation between gun deaths and gun ownership. And the UK does not "supposedly" have strict gun laws. It has strict gun laws. Those laws, like all laws, are broken by a few from time to time.


I am really sorry that you find it necessary to microanalyse posts


I read carefully the posts I reply to. If your posts do not stand up to close scrutiny, there are perhaps flaws within them. It may still be a source of sorrow to you, of course.

500N
17th Sep 2013, 20:38
bcg

"you have too many people being killed by guns."

No, they have too many INNOCENT people being killed by guns.

I doubt many people give a flying f about Drug dealers, gang members
and Crims killing each other. Find some derelict area of each city, throw
them all in there and let them go at it. Pick up the few survivors a week
later and thrown them in Jail.

Gertrude the Wombat
17th Sep 2013, 20:47
Noted. Thank you for contributing zero to this ongoing event.
It's only a zero contribution because Americans like things the way they are. Which was sort of the point being made, no?

MG23
17th Sep 2013, 20:49
Deaths from firearms numbers are a matter of record in the UK and in the USA.

And irrelevant.

Last time I looked at the stats, a few years ago, Americans stabbed each other to death more often than Britons killed each other in total. Britons killed each other at about the same rate as they do now a hundred years ago, when they could buy a pistol over the counter with no questions asked, and pay ten shillings for license to carry it.

The US murder rate is nothing to do with gun laws, and Britain's murder rate is a statistical outlier when compared to most other Western nations.

Airborne Aircrew
17th Sep 2013, 21:03
bc:

Now you really are flailing around with figuresNot at all. You took the conversation down the road of the deaths of children in schools. I merely normalized the figures you tried to skew. You are the one flailing around with tangential arguments trying to prove your point and falling flat on your kisser every time you address the keyboard. One wonders if you manage to hook and slice this much in your golf game...

To maintain the topic a little it is being reported that just a few weeks ago, while staying in a hotel in CT, while contracting at a Naval base there he called police because he had had to book into two other hotels because the voices in his head kept making him uncomfortable... The police informed the Naval base. Apparently nothing was done...

Bc, why don't you spend your obviously expansive energy worrying more about the mental health problem rather than the inanimate object you hate and fear? Just a silly little notion... You'll feel better about yourself too... win, win... :ok:

Lonewolf_50
17th Sep 2013, 21:08
And so the media tosses out a story line (http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/09/17/20542864-navy-yard-shooter-aaron-alexis-was-not-happy-with-america-friend-says?lite)... finds a friend who knew him when he didn't blow his stack ... it goes on to "troubled person hearing voices in his head ..." almost like the plot to a bad TV show. I hope the media leave his family the hell alone. They must be devastated. :(
" FORT WORTH, Texas — Aaron Alexis was so unhappy with his life in America — where he was beset by money woes and felt slighted as a veteran — that he was "ready to move out of the country" last year, a friend said Tuesday.
Sadly, he stuck around and killed bunch of people. :sad:
"He was tired of dealing with the government," said Kristi Suthamtewkal, whose husband owns the Thai Bowl Restaurant in Fort Worth, where Alexis worked in exchange for room and board.
Looks like it ... “He talked about 9/11 and where he was and how the buildings had collapsed and he couldn’t believe that...and how he was upset with the terrorists for taking innocent lives," Suthamtewkal said.
Looks like he forgot how that upset him, at some point.

There's more, if you want to read the link.

One of the people he killed, I just found out, I went to college with. Not too cool with the media provided excuses at the moment.

Airborne Aircrew
17th Sep 2013, 21:11
Oh my, it's Dirty Gertie from Number 30*

It's only a zero contribution because Americans like things the way they are. Which was sort of the point being made, no? Yes, Americans and those of us who moved here like the freedom. You're free to stay where you are... It's a free world...



* There's an honorary prize for the first person who can tell me where that phrase comes from without the use of Google... :ok:

baggersup
18th Sep 2013, 00:26
Forgive my side trip here, but something struck me when I was reading tonight the list of deceased victims of the gunman.

The ages. Those whose names have been released, and it's all by now, were between about 46 and 73. With everybody but the 46-year-old between 50 and 73. Men, women. No racial similarity, white, African American, someone who immigrated from India.

What is that about? Was he targeting older people?

Airborne Aircrew
18th Sep 2013, 00:30
I heard on the radio an apparent witness saying that the dead will all prove to be GS-13 and above... That's fairly senior supervisors. My ex was a GS-13 at Walter Reed many years ago and was, (while being something of a "rising star"), only in her early to mid thirties...

500N
18th Sep 2013, 00:33
Might be something to do with who
got rid of him from the Navy ?

Who signed it off or recommended it ?

baggersup
18th Sep 2013, 00:34
That's interesting. I hadn't thought about their grades.

Also, he seemed to avoid shooting anybody in uniform. Or so it seems. Or maybe it was just targets of opportunity and there's no rhyme or reason.

I was using the Washington Post's profiles they got up today with bios of the victims. Craig Whitlock has been doing good work and fast yesterday. He has more sources than God. Not surprised he got everything he did so quickly yesterday. They even managed to run photos of the victims.

It's hard to read it without feeling emotional.

This reporter can report from the living room sofa that the natives at the Pentagon must be exceedingly restless. From yesterday afternoon, through the night and all day today, blue and white military helicopters have been flying up and down over the Amtrak line a few hundred feet past my 7th floor window straight to the Pentagon and back again all day and night. This is not normal. The occasional heli usually flies way off in the distance on approach to the Pentagon. But this is unusual to have this level of traffic---and on a route not usually used straight through DCA airport space....me thinks the poobahs are in panic mode.

500N
18th Sep 2013, 00:37
No, I think maybe from this info he targeted non uniform people.

He shot a civvy who ran up to a US Navy Commander (in uniform)
to find out what was going on and the civvy bloke shot him in the
head from longer range but let the Commander get away ?????

Airborne Aircrew
18th Sep 2013, 00:45
Baggers:

Also, he seemed to avoid shooting anybody in uniform.I think he shot a uniformed cop right at the beginning but I'm only spouting what the media said today... He may well have avoided servicemen but then, from the sound of it, there aren't a lot of them in that building so to determine that he avoided shooting them may simply be a statistical thing. I also heard a potential victim say that he fired more than a couple of shots at him and other people he was with and that he was a crappy shot - so luck might simply be a part of it.

KBPsen
18th Sep 2013, 19:38
Mass shooting - An American tradition.

con-pilot
18th Sep 2013, 19:55
Mass shooting - An American tradition.

Really, you know that for a fact do you. :rolleyes:

And thank you (not) for contributing absolutely nothing to this thread.

Airborne Aircrew
18th Sep 2013, 20:50
Mass shooting - An American tradition. This one caused by the liberal notion that it is better to allow a man to keep his job in a highly sensitive military base rather than have people with mental problems not seek help for fear of losing their job. It's a pattern with you lefties, the one who could be a danger to the general public has far more rights than the general public itself. No-one is responsible for their own actions any more according to the left. Such sad, sad little people to think like that.

But I think I have shown that my daughter is safer in her school in the USA than if we lived in Scotland...

500N
18th Sep 2013, 20:53
AA
"This one caused by the liberal notion that it is better to allow a man to keep his job in a highly sensitive military base rather than have people with mental problems not seek help for fear of losing their job. It's a pattern with you lefties, the one who could be a danger to the general public has far more rights than the general public itself."

+ 1

Well said.

No more institutionalization, they must have a life in society !!!

Lonewolf_50
18th Sep 2013, 21:00
Baggers, that's standard demographics for federal employees in DoD at that level. I don't think he deliberately went after old people.

He may have deliberately shot sand crabs (perjorative term uniformed folk sometimes use for Navy Civilian employees -- said term being stamped out where found by leadership (c9v and mil) due to "one team one fight" point of view).

If that was his aim, then he's a double nitwit: it appears that at least three of those he shot were veterans or mil retirees.

Again, we don't know his actual motives. Only he could tell us, but he is dead so he can't.

Airborne Aircrew
18th Sep 2013, 21:01
500N:

No more institutionalization, they must have a life in society !!!

... And it's cheaper for government who can then pass on that money to their friends...

pigboat
19th Sep 2013, 13:51
Well, it didn't take long for the tinfoil hat brigade to crank up.

Professor Claims Navy Yard Shooting Was Staged. (http://www.thecollegefix.com/post/14658/)

500N
19th Sep 2013, 14:10
Of course no gun crime in the UK

"Tony Blair's daughter Kathryn and her boyfriend threatened
in gun robbery terror":(

SASless
19th Sep 2013, 14:23
He did not appear to have a racial motive in this....as he shot two Blacks.

Where are the usual Race Baiters....Sharpton, Jackson, Obama talking about this shooting as compared to say....oh.....Poor Lil Trayvon?

rgbrock1
19th Sep 2013, 14:28
Nope, SASless, the shooter was an equal opportunity shooter and shot blacks, whites, males, and females.

One female shot to death was an I.T. contractor who was the daughter of a Green Beret who survived several deployments to the 'stan.

500N
19th Sep 2013, 14:30
SaSless

When a white shoots a black, it is racist and about Racism.

When a black or white shoots everyone else, it's about Gun Control.

The "few" as named by you only come out for No 1
except Obama who likes to come out on both !!!

(Oh, and Holder who helps No 2 along by helping put guns
in criminal hands !!!).

Lonewolf_50
19th Sep 2013, 16:22
OK, fine, give this guy high marks for equal opportunity.

That still leaves failing marks as a human being, what with killing twelve people and hurting others. :mad:

Why hasn't anyone blamed vilent video games yet? :confused:

rgbrock1
19th Sep 2013, 16:29
LW:

When you take into consideration that the shooter had told others he was hearing voices in his head, I think that should have given someone pause.

This is another case of someone of questionable mental stability getting his hands on weapons and creating carnage in his wake.
But there were people out there: friends, family and/or co-workers, who were aware of his mental state and said nothing. Although not complicit in his actions, they should have some feelings of guilt in not bringing his downward spiral to the attention of those who could have helped.

500N
19th Sep 2013, 16:30
They already have.

He was getting voices in his head and played video games
for 18 hours straight !

rgbrock1
19th Sep 2013, 16:41
500N:

You also forgot to mention that he made claims, according to the police, that three people living in the room above his in the Marriott hotel where he was staying, were sending vibrations through the floor with the intent of keeping him awake.

Okaaaaay. Voices in his head, people intentionally keeping him awake, people were following him with the intention of doing him harm and some other people in another hotel in Rhode Island were speaking to him through the walls trying to convince him to jump into their microwave oven.

Hmmm. Nothing to see here, move along, move along. Completely normal guy. Yup.

500N
19th Sep 2013, 16:45
Yup.

A red flag if ever one existed !!!

It is a pity he wasn't "reported" or whatever because reading what
has been written, it seems he was a bit unstable but he seemed to
be able to convince a doctor that he wasn't aggressive or unfit.

Who knows.

I reckon people will be looking into his background a bit more
and who he spoke to to see what warning signs were missed.

Unless you are very good, it is hard to hide the Psychological signs.

lomapaseo
19th Sep 2013, 16:54
Unless you are very good, it is hard to hide the Psychological signs.

score one for me :ok:

rgbrock1
19th Sep 2013, 16:54
It's a pity he wasn't "reported" which was probably due to the people who had an idea of his mental instability not wanting to get "involved."

Take Adam Lanza and Newtown. There were plenty of people who knew he "wasn't right in the head", thought he was "very strange, scary even", etc. These same people also knew that his mother was a gun collector and he had access to the same.

Hmmm. Again, nothing to see here people. Just move along, move along.

500N
19th Sep 2013, 17:01
Loma

PM sent.


The problem is, someone needs to join the dots and as I have said before,
he managed to convince the person he spoke to that he wasn't violent or aggressive.

The problem is, a person gets a snap shot of the bloke and if he lies
what do you do ?

Re "hide the Psychological signs", it often shows up in other ways
but won't be picked up unless it is done over time and a number of
sessions which is often too late as we have seen.

SASless
19th Sep 2013, 19:17
The Criminal Justice system had two prior chances to stop this guy from ever getting a gun legally.....both times the system did not prosecute him for Gun Crimes!

That alone indicts the system that wants more Gun Control Laws and re-affirms what we have said in the past.....from the NRA right on down.....ENFORCE the EXISTING Gun Laws!

500N
19th Sep 2013, 19:20
"The Criminal Justice system had two prior chances to stop this guy from ever getting a gun legally.....both times the system did not prosecute him for Gun Crimes!"

And that was before he even heard the voices in his head
and was scrutinised by medicos !!!

The Navy took action and got rid of him but I did see why he
wasn't charged by the Police and couldn't believe it.

KBPsen
20th Sep 2013, 23:11
This one caused by the liberal notion...That has to be the most warped and bizarre reasoning seen here in a long, long time. It is beyond Glenn Beck weird.

It is just weird, really weird.

500N
20th Sep 2013, 23:17
But quite often it is true.

KBPsen
20th Sep 2013, 23:24
Perhaps you should see a mental health professional if you really believe that. It is just weird, really weird.

con-pilot
20th Sep 2013, 23:39
Perhaps you should see a mental health professional if you really believe that. It is just weird, really weird.

So, you are the World's expert on just what is weird. Did you take a test, or are you self appointed?

That in itself is pretty weird, really weird.

pigboat
20th Sep 2013, 23:41
So, you are the World's expert on just what is weird.
Naw, just what is really weird.

KBPsen
20th Sep 2013, 23:42
Really. Con. Really. Why is then that the wast majority of those who committed mass shootings in the US in the last 40 years have had metal health problems and got their guns legally? Is that because of liberals or the government or because you have a ****** up system where anyone can get their hands on weapons designed to kill people regardless of their mental state?

Oktas8
21st Sep 2013, 00:26
Here's a thing I don't understand. It's about how anyone could reasonably have stopped this murderer from easily getting and owning a gun.

On the one hand, the gun rights lobby works hard to prevent restrictions on gun ownership: restrictions such as mandatory background checks at all points of purchase, mandating that gun owners must be licensed, etc.

On the other hand, when this obviously mentally ill person gets a gun, the suggestion here is that certain existing gun restrictions should be enforced.

But how can you stop this mentally unhealthy person with a history of (minor) gun violence from getting a gun, when mandatory background checks are forbidden and he need never have had a license-check?

I think there needs to be a reality check. There is no glowing red sign above each of our heads saying "good guy" or "bad guy". There's just people, some who will turn out to have needed restrictions, others, perhaps most, who will turn out to always have been responsible. But it is extremely hard to draw that line in advance.

Airborne Aircrew
21st Sep 2013, 01:03
That has to be the most warped and bizarre reasoning seen here in a long, long time. It is beyond Glenn Beck weird.

It is just weird, really weird.

Without reference to his other posts... How many times can you fit the word "weird" into a conversation????

500N
21st Sep 2013, 01:13
KBPsen

It's OK thanks, I have a degree in Psychology.

500N
21st Sep 2013, 01:18
"But it is extremely hard to draw that line in advance."

Not if
1. He had been charged for firearm crimes before
2. His mental state had been certified. FFS, his employer even rang up
his hotel to question things.


You do need some background checks for some guns, it is not a blanket
no checks at all.

The other reason the gun lobby oppose checks is the Gov't then
brings in checks and does it by creep so no one wants to give an
inch. I don't blame them, even though I can see great benefit of
reporting mental issues.

SASless
21st Sep 2013, 01:26
I love the Anti-Gunners who yell about "Internet Guns Sales".....all the while the ignorant feckers ignore the fact that the weapon might be "bought" on the Internet but the Gun itself has to be shipped to a Federally licensed gun dealer and all of the ATF Paperwork has to be filled out and the FBI Back ground check done before you can take possession of the weapon.

But then....facts never get in the way of a Ban the Gun Progressive.

500N
21st Sep 2013, 01:29
SaSless

Agree.

The anti gunners wouldn't know shyte from clay about
the gun laws and what is involved. We have the same
problem over here in Aus, lefty wankers do a quote
that is so far removed from reality it isn't funny.

I reckon I know more about the gun laws in the US
than most anti gunners.

The one question that always gets them is ask them what
a "straw purchase" is. They look at you like you are stupid.

Lon More
21st Sep 2013, 06:06
It's a pity he wasn't "reported" which was probably due to the people who had an idea of his mental instability not wanting to get "involved."According to this (http://www.thesmokinggun.com/buster/aaron-alexis-rhode-island-police-report-675432) the Navy was advised of the microwave incident six weeks prior to the shooting,
Alarmed by Alexis’s behavior--and concerned about possible “Naval Base implications”--a Newport police sergeant faxed a copy of the department’s report to naval station police. A Navy cop--whose name is redacted from the Newport Police Department report--advised that they “would follow up on this subject and determine if he is in fact, a naval contractor.”

bcgallacher
21st Sep 2013, 06:15
You can argue as much as you like but the fact remains that 30,000+ men ,women and children are killed by gunshot each year in the USA.This is a rate far in excess of any other developed nation.I personally can think of no way that this figure can be significantly reduced by any kind of legislation - as I have stated previously the guns,legal and otherwise are already in society and no legislation can remove them. After the Dunblane massacre in Scotland there was a ban on hand guns and semi automatic weapons, the weapons were handed in but there were so few actually in our society that little difference was made. Gun crime here is of insignificant proportion in comparison to the USA due mainly to a culture of aversion to firearms.In the USA a large minority believe they need a gun to protect themselves - here there is no such attitude among the general populace.
Sadly the citizens of the USA will just have to live with the situation as it exists.There is a small glimmer of hope - although gun ownership has risen,there are fewer gun owners.
Just noted a drive by where 13 were shot including a 3 year old girl - no deaths fortunately. In a few weeks or months no doubt we will have another pointless debate on the next mass killing.

mixture
21st Sep 2013, 08:47
Of course no gun crime in the UK "Tony Blair's daughter Kathryn and her boyfriend threatened in gun robbery terror

Picking up on pointless examples 500N..... the statistics don't lie.

Of course there might be the occasional gun crime in the UK, but the numbers in the USA are far far far bigger, and the nature of the incidents in the US are far worse and occur far more frequently !

Its come to the point where, for example, a gun shooting at a school in the USA is considered my many people outside the US to be "yet another" event.... there have afterall been a number of these in 2013. So predictable, and so easily avoidable through some legislation and restrictions on guns.

SMT Member
21st Sep 2013, 09:27
It is not just a question of gun laws, it is actually mainly a question of a nations maturity and ability to act responsibly as a society. Case in point being Switzerland, where a very large number of households will be hosting an assault rifle and it's owner. But the Swiss are a calm, collected and responsible society, not the wildly immature society that is the US, celebrating a culture of violence on a scale that is almost unbelievable. They are, by and large, a paranoid group of highly individual minds, living in a society where violence is utterly engrained in entertainment, politics and culture, and it is therefore of no surprise things ends the way they do.

Personally I feel sorry for the innocent victims, their families and friends. I also recognize the loss society faces by all these killings, albeit some of them may well have dispatched unwanted elements blissfully prematurely, but I'm not going to let myself be affected by it anymore than that. It's their train set to play with, and if they wish to compete with 3rd tier cesspits for most killings per annum, that's their problem. I'll just do the sane thing and stay well clear - I am quite sure they won't miss my visits anymore than I will.

BenThere
21st Sep 2013, 12:34
In actuality, though, the number of gun-inflicted deaths on the 'culturally mature' turf of Europe over the past hundred or so years has by far exceeded those in the US, by multiples, exponential multiples.

mixture
21st Sep 2013, 12:45
over the past hundred or so years

Talk about clutching at straws. :ugh:

You're so desperate to defend the USA's dire statistics, that you're having to fall back to a frenzied cumulative calculation of statistics over a great number of years. A number of years that also included two World Wars in Europe.

Just face the facts BenThere, the year by year statistics from the USA are bad and are showing no signs of improving.

beaufort1
21st Sep 2013, 13:04
I'm reluctant to post in this thread as I genuinely don't understand the fixation with firearms and I find each 'massacre' both very sad and depressing with no obvious solution in sight.
This link provides more food for thought.

Study: Toddlers Kill More Americans Than Terrorists in 2013 | Independent Journal Review (http://www.ijreview.com/2013/06/58736-study-toddlers-kill-more-americans-than-terrorists-in-2013/)

Gertrude the Wombat
21st Sep 2013, 13:05
Of course no gun crime in the UK

"Tony Blair's daughter Kathryn and her boyfriend threatened
in gun robbery terror"http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/sowee.gif
Nobody has ever claimed "none", the claim is simply "vastly less".

Anyway, wasn't that in London? - weird place, London, hardly representative of the UK. Just like Anchorage is not an awful lot like Alaska.

BenThere
21st Sep 2013, 13:09
Talk about clutching at straws. :ugh:

You're so desperate to defend the USA's dire statistics

Nothing of the sort.

I do find it a bit ironic for someone listing his location, presumably his home, as 'Europe', to be lecturing Americans on the violence and immaturity of their culture, given historical context.

Go back 500 years if you want to, then. It'll return the same result, though on an ever increasing scale.

In addition, despite the all too frequent mass shootings we suffer, gun crime trends have been actually moving in a favorable direction, particularly outside jurisdictions with heavy-handed gun control, despite, or perhaps because of, the rapidly increasing number of guns being purchased. Figure that out, why don't you?

Gertrude the Wombat
21st Sep 2013, 13:10
I don't blame them, even though I can see great benefit of
reporting mental issues.
Catch 22, innit.

Anyone who wants a gun is de facto a nutter, so if guns were denied to people with mental health problems then nobody would be allowed a gun. Which would suit me, but it explains the gun nutters' opposition to denying guns to people with mental health issues.

wings folded
21st Sep 2013, 13:22
In actuality, though, the number of gun-inflicted deaths on the 'culturally mature' turf of Europe over the past hundred or so years has by far exceeded those in the US, by multiples, exponential multiples.
While you are at it, why not go back eight hundred years or so?

Oh, of course, sorry, you can't.

BenThere
21st Sep 2013, 13:36
Agreed. That's why I suggested 500 years, almost the totality of American history. The key point I was trying to make remains unchanged.

Also, beyond 500 years we'd have to change the category to lances, arrows and swords.

wings folded
21st Sep 2013, 13:45
The key point I was trying to make remains unchanged.
I agree. Unchanged and entirely spurious.

SASless
21st Sep 2013, 13:46
How many Jews got shot by the SS units sent to eastern Europe with the express purpose to wipe them out?

That was mass murder.....not an act of War.

BenThere
21st Sep 2013, 13:57
Spurious? So you deny that more human beings have been dispatched from the barrel of a gun fired by a European? Now that would be spurious!

bcgallacher
21st Sep 2013, 14:13
How many Vietnamese,Cambodians and Laotians killed by the USA ?- 3 million + including events such as Mai Lai. How many Filipinos killed in the aftermath of the Spanish American war.I suggest you have a closer look at your own history before you spout such nonsense.

wings folded
21st Sep 2013, 14:17
benthere,

I am not sure whether you really believe the stuff you are saying, but being generous, for a moment, I will indulge your points of view.

You seem to have statistics to hand concerning deaths from gunfire fired by a European. I do not. Do you have a statistic for deaths from gunfire fired by Americans, outside their territory? Do you have statistics for other deaths by explosive devices masterminded by Americans?

Can you really confront more than 30,000 firearm related deaths in America with 51 in the UK, and keep a straight face when asserting that "gun crime trends have been actually moving in a favorable direction" ?

The trend may be good, but a bit of a way to go to narrow the gap, I think.

bcgallacher
21st Sep 2013, 14:18
Do you think that the millions of Vietnamese civilians were killed by acts of war -Mai Lai for example - that was as bad as any atrocity committed by the Waffen SS. It was not the only unjustified slaughter.

BenThere
21st Sep 2013, 14:24
that was as bad as any atrocity committed by the Waffen SS

No, I don't agree.

Admittedly, I don't have the precise statistics of gun deaths inflicted, but I don't accord much credence to your wild claims, either, bcgallacher.

I am something of a student of history, though, and am confident Europeans have shot more people with a gun, on a per capita basis or any other, than Americans.

May I point out the gun carnage of 1914-1918 alone, in the trenches?

bcgallacher
21st Sep 2013, 14:26
Wings Folded - one of the few posts that shows any kind of appreciation of reality. The capacity for self delusion of the American gun nut is limitless. The numbers are falling - could they get any worse? I suspect that the main reason for the fall in deaths is better medical attention. It is the lack of compassion or humanity that bothers me -8 minors a day are shot dead and nobody seems to care - they cannot all be black drug dealers!

bcgallacher
21st Sep 2013, 14:34
Ben There - the massacre of 450 unarmed Vietnamese men, women, children and babies by US military was not comparable to SS atrocities? Do an internet search for photographs and tell me the difference.SS officers were shot or hanged after WW2 for committing such acts - shooting US prisoners for example.

BenThere
21st Sep 2013, 14:39
That wasn't your premise which was that My Lai was as bad as anything Waffen SS did.

My Lai was not condoned by the US and the perpetrators were punished by court martial. The atrocities of Waffen SS were German policy. See the difference?

wings folded
21st Sep 2013, 14:42
Answer my post before that of bcgallagher, unless you prefer not to because it is a bit tricky.

At the same time, what a waste of time.

You seem to be happy with your gun regime, Europeans are happyish with theirs.

Do not claim a higher moral ground when you collectively kill 30,000 people with firearms in one year, when in the UK the number is 51.

Carry on like that, and take comfort from stats which when bent suit your agenda.

BenThere
21st Sep 2013, 14:55
OK, I'll bite.

I think gun crime is a huge problem and results in thousands of tragic deaths in the United States every year.

Legislated gun control will not solve this problem, as legal gun owners are not the problem, and in fact, where they are unfettered by gun control, reduce gun crime from their deterrent and prevention effect.

I want and defend the right to have a gun to protect myself, not to shoot someone. I need that here in the US, particularly as I live in close proximity to Detroit.

I brought up the issue of historical European gun violence to disabuse the expressed notion that European culture is somehow above the violence experienced elsewhere, the US in particular.

mixture
21st Sep 2013, 15:03
where they are unfettered by gun control, reduce gun crime from their deterrent and prevention effect.

hahahahahahahahahaha :ugh:

Typical nonsense reply from the Pro-gun lobbyists.

Reduce crime ? Deterrent and prevention ? Lets see ... how many of your recent US mass shootings were undertaken by people "unfettered by gun control".

The US is also a place that allows registered blind people to own and operate guns.

Seriously, you guys are way too lax, its not hard to see that.

BenThere
21st Sep 2013, 15:05
how many of your recent US mass shootings were undertaken by people "unfettered by gun control".


All of them.

wings folded
21st Sep 2013, 15:25
OK, I'll bite.
I think gun crime is a huge problem and results in thousands of tragic deaths in the United States every year. Agree. And elsewhere too.


Legislated gun control will not solve this problem, as legal gun owners are not the problem, and in fact, where they are unfettered by gun control, reduce gun crime from their deterrent and prevention effect.

A purely American concept, not adopted in old Europe.


I want and defend the right to have a gun to protect myself, not to shoot someone. I need that here in the US.


And it has worked. You have that right. And I agree, you need that in the US with all those nutters around you able to buy guns without any kind of question. Freedom, of course!




I brought up the issue of historical European gun violence to disabuse the expressed notion that European culture is somehow above the violence experienced elsewhere, the US in particular.


The history of Europe has been filled with violence, as has that of of the USA

BenThere
21st Sep 2013, 15:42
A purely American concept, not adopted in old Europe.


Likewise, the concept of vehicle torching is unheard of here.

wings folded
21st Sep 2013, 15:48
Perhaps where you are but I have seen it, believe me. In the US. Then again, you probably do not believe me. Not quite according to your agenda.

Dushan
21st Sep 2013, 15:58
Catch 22, innit.

Anyone who wants a gun is de facto a nutter, so if guns were denied to people with mental health problems then nobody would be allowed a gun. Which would suit me, but it explains the gun nutters' opposition to denying guns to people with mental health issues.

Yes and anyone who wants to run for political office, however minor, is a nutter, and nutters should not be allowed to run for office.

galaxy flyer
21st Sep 2013, 15:59
Wings folded

Clearly, you have not had ANY experience buying guns or ammo in the US.

GF

SASless
21st Sep 2013, 16:02
bcg,

I will trade you one My Lai for one Bloody Sunday.

Now what was your point again?

SASless
21st Sep 2013, 16:05
Recently heard a good counter to the Anti-Gun folks.

Next time you run into one....ask them if they are willing to put up a big sign in their yard declaring their Home a "Gun Free Zone!".

I can promise you not one of them is willing to do so.

Ask them why not....and they will probably tell you they do not wish to make themselves a target for Burglars, Home Invaders, or other violent criminals.

Then....pop this question on them......"If you are unwilling to do that at your Home.....then why are you so willing to do that at Schools, Hospitals, Movie Theaters, Churches, and Shopping Centers?".

Gertrude the Wombat
21st Sep 2013, 16:20
Next time you run into one....ask them if they are willing to put up a big sign in their yard declaring their Home a "Gun Free Zone!".

?? Why would anyone feel the need to do that??

My home is a lots-of-things-free zone - it would need rather a large notice. I find it adequate simply to rely on visitors to be polite. So, strangers might ask whether they may bring a dog or a cigarette or illegal drugs or a gun into my home, and they will get the answer "no thanks". People who know me don't need to ask. In neither case is there any call for a notice.

The only time I've needed a "no guns" notice was whilst running a polling station in Kosovo. And the only person who entered the room carrying a gun was one of my armed guard, so I got him out of there.

Dushan
21st Sep 2013, 16:31
Why did you need an armed guard? Isn't that kind of like carrying a gun you self but leaving it for " hired help".

mixture
21st Sep 2013, 16:40
Next time you run into one....ask them if they are willing to put up a big sign in their yard declaring their Home a "Gun Free Zone!".

I can promise you not one of them is willing to do so.

I suspect you will find the vast majority of the world outside the USA would be perfectly happy to do so without hesitation, as would probably a fair proportion of your fellow countrymen ....

SASless
21st Sep 2013, 16:44
We don't care about the rest of the World.....or have you missed that over the past dozens of threads on Gun Control?

We really do not care a jot what you lot think about our gun laws.

If you live here....then you have a say but if not.....we really just don't care what you think.

You don't want us telling you how to do things in your country.....so please return the favor.

wings folded
21st Sep 2013, 17:15
GF


Wings folded
Clearly, you have not had ANY experience buying guns or ammo in the US.
Correct.

SASless


We don't care about the rest of the World.....

We know that only too well.


You don't want us telling you how to do things in your country.....so please return the favor.
And in return, have a word with those fellow citizens who think that we are wrong not to allow anybody and his dog to own lethal weapons without question, as if it were a right.

500N
21st Sep 2013, 17:22
You let idiots drive cars and they are lethal weapons :O

Airborne Aircrew
21st Sep 2013, 17:30
Just to add some clarity:-

The history of Europe has been filled with violence, as has that of of the USAIt was the Europeans that introduced violence on a large scale to the USA as they did in almost every other part of the world they touched, which is the vast majority of it.

Frankly, as a European myself, I find it laughable that you lot can sit there pontificating about the laws and constitution of another country. Especially one that you've had to come crying to twice to dig your sorry arses out of the sh1t. You came to the USA precisely because it had a lot of guns that you needed in order to save yourselves from having to learn German. :ugh:

It's really quite pathetic listening to you all... You're like the antis over here... Lot's to say about a subject you know nothing about and have no experience with but are somehow armchair experts. You need to spend more time making sure that two Islamist males don't make you look fools after they murder a serviceman in broad daylight in the middle of the street while the police cower around the corner.

mixture
21st Sep 2013, 17:37
Especially one that you've had to come crying to twice to dig your sorry arses out of the sh1t. You came to the USA precisely because it had a lot of guns that you needed in order to save yourselves from having to learn German.

Yet another desperate attempt by the pro-gun lobby, having to resort to digging far back into history in order to come up with some poor defence against America's lack of gun control.

At least your earlier colleague with his attempt at cumulative statistics over 100 years made a reasonable attempt at making something that sounded like a counter-argument (even though it was utter nonsense in fact). Your attempt at a counter-argument by bringing up WWII is just laughable !

boofhead
21st Sep 2013, 17:43
Most places in the US are just as peaceful as most places in Europe or Aus etc. Small communities rarely see a murder, let alone a gun homicide. The stats for the white male as a murderer are similar to the rest of the world, ie very low. For a white woman practically zero.

It might be relevant that 2 percent of the US population makes up 60 percent of the US prison population and that could lead you to believe that only a small part of the US population makes up the largest component of murderers.

Take a look at the places in Aus or UK where the various ethnic populations live and see the gang and drug crimes that occur there. Is it different to what we see in Detroit or Chicago? I doubt it.

Why does this small part of the population seem to not obey laws or have a moral base? I personally think that the drug culture (not just illegal drugs) is mainly to blame, but the lack of family values, many families not having a father at home (probably he is locked up) and the destruction of the economy contribute to the hopelessness and lack of respect for human life many in this community feel.

The more these crimes occur, the more gun sales go up. Simply electing an anti-gun President has caused gun sales to skyrocket. The Genie is well clear of the bottle by now and there is no way to get him back in.

500N
21st Sep 2013, 17:44
mixture

Why does it worry you (and everyone else outside of the US)
what goes on in the US re guns ?

Let the US do what they want to do.

mixture
21st Sep 2013, 17:49
Why does it worry you (and everyone else outside of the US)
what goes on in the US re guns ?


Because I'm getting sick and tired of seeing your stupid asses on the news the whole time with yet another mass shooting as some educational establishment / cinema / army base whatever.... :E

I've gone from feeling sorry for the victims to thinking each event is predictable and would be so easily avoidable if a tighter grip was put on gun ownership in the US.

500N
21st Sep 2013, 17:54
MoVe to somewhere without TV reception or even better,
turn off the TV :O

"I've gone from feeling sorry for the victims to thinking each event is predictable and would be so easily avoidable if a tighter grip was put on gun ownership in the US."

Another predictable response from anti gunners.

Just look at the DC one, fix the obvious issues / problems
that occurred re his mental state before even looking at the
guns.

con-pilot
21st Sep 2013, 18:16
The Genie is well clear of the bottle by now and there is no way to get him back in.

That is the most pertinent statement on this gun issue so far.

No matter how much you people from Europe/UK moan, cry, insult, bitch and make ridiculous statements about the laws of an other nation, a nation that they do not reside in, let alone be a citizen of, you cannot face the facts as they exist.

Fact A. Highest number of gun deaths are in cites that have the most strict anti-gun laws. The more liberal the gun laws, including things as 'open' carry, the less crimes by gun use.

Fact B. The vast majority of murders by guns are gang/drug related, committed by people that can not legally own a gun. Or for that matter even be in the same room as gun.

Fact C. The are just too many guns in the United States. Even if the Second Amendment was overturned by an Amendment to the Constitution, the only way it could be removed/overturned. It would be impossible to remove the majority of the guns legally owned and no way in hell one would be able to remove the guns from the element in society that cannot legally own or have a gun, the criminal element.

So go ahead, insult, bitch and make fools out of yourselves, your not going to change the laws of another nation, no matter how superior you falsely think you are.

I've lived in the US for nearly 60 years, in that time I've not even heard a shot fired outside of a gun range or hunting in the United States. This includes ten years working for the United States Marshal Service.

I've never been shot.

I've never been shot at.

I've never shot anyone.

I've never shot at someone.

I've never seen anyone shot.

I've never seen anyone shot at.

So if some of you anti-gun nuts are correct about what you think you know about life in the United States, one of the above would have to happened to me.

But it has not nor to 99 % of the population of the US.

SASless
21st Sep 2013, 18:22
I blame Liberals....not guns.

Anne Coulter sums it up in her article......

Ann Coulter - September 18, 2013 - CRAZIER THAN LIBERALS (http://www.anncoulter.com/columns/2013-09-18.html#read_more)

finfly1
21st Sep 2013, 18:25
What he [con-pilot] said.

I am currently staying in an open carry state, and seldom if ever have I felt MORE safe and secure and unworried about my personal security.

The bumper sticker that reads: "When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns" is obviously too deep for some folks to comprehend.

bcgallacher
21st Sep 2013, 18:27
AA - how many servicemen did the Islamic officer kill? I think you are getting a bit desperate in your logic.

Mr Chips
21st Sep 2013, 18:33
Mixture
interesting post you made on another thread, perhaps you should have posted it here...
but lots has been written on the matter and the reasons behind it. Probably not much need to regurgitate it all again.

bcgallacher
21st Sep 2013, 18:37
SASless - Kent state university trumps that. As far as Bloody Sunday is concerned 14 not 450 people died - no women ,children or babies - just rioters.

con-pilot
21st Sep 2013, 18:44
Kent state university

If you are referring to the National Guard incident that occurred in 1970 at Kent State University, four people were killed.

So, what are you going on about?

BenThere
21st Sep 2013, 20:07
four people were killed

Which would be a pretty good Saturday in Chicago, a city with the most restrictive gun control laws in the country.

mixture,

The world war references have nothing to do with gun control, which AFAIK existed only in Nazi Germany, but with the proclivity of Europeans to resort to mass bloodletting, with guns, on a few memorable occasions.

When they were desperate, and their societies were on the verge of destruction, it was the US that came to the rescue. You're welcome.

And here and now we have Europeans offering unsolicited advice as to what our self-defense rights should be so as to attain a more civil society. Pardon me for listening politely while discounting such wisdom.

I think the time will come when Europeans will rue the day they gave up their guns. I may even live to see it. Nevertheless, please go your own way and allow us to go ours.

galaxy flyer
21st Sep 2013, 20:32
Wings folded,

Having admitted NO experience with US gun laws or purchasing, trading or transferring legal guns here, why did you hold such a clear opinion on the subject? Just uninformed prejudice? Or malicious misrepresentation of the facts?

GF

500N
21st Sep 2013, 20:58
bcgallacher

Will you please answer the question by con-pilot ?

"If you are referring to the National Guard incident that occurred in 1970 at Kent State University, four people were killed.

So, what are you going on about?"


"AA - how many servicemen did the Islamic officer kill?"
Too many and if ever an example was needed where open or conceiled carry
would have stopped or at least hindered an attack, this was it - on the basis
that most of the people on the base were trained military people.

.

con-pilot
21st Sep 2013, 21:15
Too many and if ever an example was needed where open or conceiled carry
would have stopped or at least hindered an attack, this was it - on the basis
that most of the people on the base were trained military people.


A decision that was made by Bill Clinton for political reasons, only to appease the anti-gun lobby. As there was zero reason for such a stupid regulation, that ended up costing the lives of US service men and women in a terrorist attack. A terrorist attack carried out by a traitor to his country and his fellow service men and women.

But Obama, again just for political reasons, ordered this terrorist attack, to be called work place violence.

Airborne Aircrew
21st Sep 2013, 21:37
Mixture:

Yet another desperate attempt by the pro-gun lobby, having to resort to digging far back into history in order to come up with some poor defence against America's lack of gun control.Not at all... I wonder why you are so interested and so rude in your interest. I've watched you here for a few years now and, no matter where you post, you are a rude, brash and frankly an uneducated individual. When you have actually owned a gun come back and tell me how useless it is. Until then, you have no place in this conversation.

If you had a clue about "gun control" you'd realize that, when it was instituted in the UK, there were not really many firearms and zero predators. At the same time in history the USA was still a frontier where, if you didn't have a gun of some kind, you were dead. I live on the outskirts of what was one of the biggest cities in the USA just a couple of decades ago. But, just 70 miles away, a 12 year old girl was attacked by a Black Bear last month... I see coyotes not infrequently within 10 miles of my house, I have a six year old daughter who may look like a nice few meals to an adult male coyote. There are millions and millions of acres of "frontier" all across the USA. A gun is a requirement, period. You can spout all your uninformed bullcrap you like, but the reality is that, here in the USA, firearms are very necessary in vast regions. You simply can't "control" in one place and not in another... If you were as intelligent as you keep trying to have everyone believe then you'd understand that... But you are what you are. Tone down your rhetoric and discuss as an adult or bugger off, your rudeness does you no favours.

PTT
21st Sep 2013, 21:53
Twelve facts about guns and mass shootings in the United States (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/12/14/nine-facts-about-guns-and-mass-shootings-in-the-united-states/)

Dushan
21st Sep 2013, 21:55
In the USA a large minority believe they need a gun to protect themselves - here there is no such attitude among the general populace.

Large minority? That sounds like a lot of people, to me, especially when we are talking about a population of ~350 million. But do carry on and think that is is just a few rednecks who haven't seen the enlightened European light, yet.

Dushan
21st Sep 2013, 21:59
Because I'm getting sick and tired of seeing your stupid asses on the news the whole time with yet another mass shooting as some educational establishment / cinema / army base whatever.... :E

I've gone from feeling sorry for the victims to thinking each event is predictable and would be so easily avoidable if a tighter grip was put on gun ownership in the US.


http://ak5.picdn.net/shutterstock/videos/138946/preview/stock-footage-close-up-of-old-television-tuning-dial.jpg

Oktas8
21st Sep 2013, 22:48
Good link PTT, thanks. Very informative.

I try to make very few posts here, because the political climate on this topic has become so divisive. It seems that anyone who disagrees is a "nut" who holds extremist views - either "ban all guns" or "doesn't care about mass shootings". Yet these two extreme views are quite rare, as PTT's link shows.

I wonder how many others on here can acknowledge that their opponents usually are (at least moderately) intelligent people who can articulate good reasons for their position? Perhaps there should be a popup to remind posters of that when pressing "Submit reply"!

Airborne Aircrew
21st Sep 2013, 22:53
Oktas8:

I wonder how many others on here can acknowledge that their opponents usually are (at least moderately) intelligent people who can articulate good reasons for their position?

The problem is that, in many cases, they either aren't or can't... The trouble is discerning between the two...

BenThere
21st Sep 2013, 23:06
Valid and good point, Oktas. I've become inured to being called a nutter or nutjob (why the pre-occupation with nuts?) for simply expressing sincere opinions.

Those who do it, either by conscious condescension, cleverly twisting a name so as to convey a negative connotation, or simply calling someone an idiot with no support - they all lose a notch of my esteem by resorting to it, even if they essentially agree with me.

500N
21st Sep 2013, 23:17
Oktas

I can "acknowledge that their opponents usually are (at least moderately) intelligent people who can articulate ........ reasons for their position?"
I have deleted "good".
That is on here, where the majority of people are professionals
or at least in or have been in an industry where a professional
culture is required (at least in the west :O).

I was never as right wing, pro gun as I have become but the left wing
anti gun nuts who have get to fever level based on ideology and who
sprout BS most of the time have made me become louder, more right
wing, partly because the pollies seem to listen to the vocal minority.
As a result we, pro gun, silent majority people have had some
significant wins and blunted a lot of what was said.

While they are fighting a rear guard action and using up their money
doing so they have less time and money to forward.

500N
21st Sep 2013, 23:38
You want to stop some of these anti gunners who have nothing better to do, find something their family or kids are involved with or do (Saturday sport) and start targeting that with a campaign to close it down or stop it.

It makes them re focus very quickly.

BenThere
21st Sep 2013, 23:43
And what's with kids playing soccer and not keeping score so as not to hurt the losing side's feelings?

500N
21st Sep 2013, 23:47
Oh, you mean the "No one loses" syndrome :O

More lefty BS that has promulgated through the schools.

I would hate to have to train soldiers now, no shouting, no yelling,
no swearing, no giving someone a hard time (no water boarding :O).

BenThere
22nd Sep 2013, 00:01
The problem is that life doesn't observe those 'no one loses' niceties.

The tougher and smarter they are, the better they'll do. The strategy, teamwork, striving, and toughness of sports promotes all that. But only if it's competitive and not just participatory.

500N
22nd Sep 2013, 00:06
Exactly.

And to use soldiering as an example (and probably applies
to other arms like Air force and Navy), even though it is
collective training, an individual still needs to pass the
tests by themselves.

I know that some of the tests I did and then put soldiers through,
sheer guts and determination when you were completely fcked,
cold, wet, hungry and miserable was the one and only things
that got them through.

And playing of sport in Winter in the UK and striving to win
or even be better helped me in those times because I had been
there before.

SASless
22nd Sep 2013, 00:12
AA,

Lots of Predators in my area....primarily Black Humans and not Bears although we are seeing Bears in our backyards frequently but they tend to get into the Garbage Cans and gardens (American style gardens.....fruits, veggies....).

Doses of Buckshot work fine on both Varieties of Predator.

We use Turkey Calls to bring up the Coyotes....they think they are coming for a nice Thanksgiving Dinner but get a very rude surprise.

Folks in Europe....including the UK in that term.....forget there are more than a few Critters in our Woods and Forests that are higher on the Food Chain than Humans.

Their attitudes would change if that situation changed overnight in their small bit of Utopia.

500N
22nd Sep 2013, 00:16
"Their attitudes would change if that situation changed
overnight in their small bit of Utopia."

+ 100

When you are hunted by something other than a human,
the whole situation changes. Talk to anyone who has been
stalked by Wolves, a lion, a walking chainsaw (Leopard)
or come across an angry bear, a different ball game.

Airborne Aircrew
22nd Sep 2013, 00:19
SAS:

Their attitudes would change if that situation changed overnight in their small bit of Utopia.

How naughty of you... No animal would dare to attack a European... They can smell the "superiority" from a mile away... ;)

500N
22nd Sep 2013, 00:31
And what is funny is that the economies of the world are going down
the tubes but the gun industry in the US, Canada, Australia, NZ are
going great guns, almost booming.

Part of the reason is because the lefties push and push and whenever
they do, sales increase :ok:

Dushan
22nd Sep 2013, 00:34
Cayotes are pretty brazen in Toronto.

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh162/dushan_divjak/514fb2ed3b4d3e17b9c863e30397df25_zps143b8831.jpg

BenThere
22nd Sep 2013, 00:46
Part of the reason is because the lefties push and push

Sometimes, when I'm trying to fall asleep, I visualize thousands of lefties trying to escape California, New York and Illinois and from the woods at the border blaze thousands of rifles, manned by patriotic Americans, driving them back into the hellholes they created.

I know it's not realistic...yet. But is it bad that it makes me smile? And that I then can sleep peacefully?

pigboat
22nd Sep 2013, 00:49
..or come across an angry bear, a different ball game.
Early this summer a group of eco tourists and their guide were hiking in the Torngat Mountains Park in northern Labrador. One night a polar bear pulled one of the hikers from his tent and the guy nearly died from his ensuing injuries. A spokesman said "We banged on pots and pans and waved flashlights and set off flares, but the bear paid no attention." How in the name of all that is holy can people be stupid enough to hike around in polar bear country without a rifle? :confused:

500N
22nd Sep 2013, 00:50
"I know it's not realistic...yet."

Yet being the important world.

If the shyte hits the fan, the survivalists won't be letting the screaming
unprepared hordes in and will drive them back, under fire if needed.
And a few scores will be settled at the same time !!!

I wouldn't want anyone who is useless in my camp.

And no it is not bad to smile :O

500N
22nd Sep 2013, 00:54
pigboat

Because they live in a lovey, fluffy world where nothing dies
or gets hurt and everything lives happily every after.

As a minimum someone should have had a pistol or two
and been able to use it.

The number of stories I read on hunting sights where
a person has had to use a pistol in the US to stop or scare
a bear.

They, US Gov't I think even changed the law on concealed
carry in Yellowstone National park and others where it
was banned.

A bear, Polar or Brown will rip someone to shreds in
about 5 seconds and they should hope the first blow
of the paw knocks them out.

Dushan
22nd Sep 2013, 01:00
The latest RWS bash was held close to Yellowstone. One day we saw a park ranger armed with a Glock, Tazer, bear spray, and a few other items. BenThere asked him if the gun was for bad bears and he said "No, for bad people. It does not work on bears, just makes him mad. We use spray on the bear which acts on all of his senses".

BenThere
22nd Sep 2013, 01:04
I spent last week at Jackson Hole, Wyoming, just South of Yellowstone. At breakfast one day I had a short chat with a park ranger who had a holstered pistol.

"Is that good for bear", I asked, referencing his pistol.

"No, that's for bad people. The best thing for bear is pepper spray."

When I picked up my rental car, the options I was offered were GPS and bear spray. I think one of those .50 caliber pistols from the photo page might have been a good thing to carry along, too. That would at least slow down the most determined grizzley.

BenThere
22nd Sep 2013, 01:06
Sorry, Dushan. We were simultaneously telling the same story.

Dushan
22nd Sep 2013, 01:10
NP, at least we are consistent.

Airborne Aircrew
22nd Sep 2013, 01:25
500N:

Because they live in a lovey, fluffy world where nothing dies
or gets hurt and everything lives happily every after.They come from the World of Warcraft and the other war game whose name eludes me right now world... The ones where there is an utter lack of reality....

I said recently that we went camping about 20 miles north of where the 12 year old was attacked by a Black Bear last month... But for my ability to look at the land via Google Earth the 12 gauge pump action with Brenneke slugs was going with us. Funnily enough, because it was clear the campsite was very big and already fully booked the P226 went with me instead...

Why? Because I could... End of story... Period... Very few Europeans have that freedom... and, as noted by the fact I'm typing this from the comfort of my home, no humans or animals were hurt when I did so... :ok:

BenThere
22nd Sep 2013, 02:13
Why? Because I could

"Freedom tastes of reality".

Who said that.

11Fan
22nd Sep 2013, 03:54
Speaking of bears, do you know how to tell the difference between brown bear scat and grizzly scat?

The brown bear scat contains berries and leaves and the grizzly's has little bells in it and smells of pepper.

Oktas8
22nd Sep 2013, 04:21
How in the name of all that is holy can people be stupid enough to hike around in polar bear country without a rifle?

Ignorant, I would say, not stupid. Stupid is forever, but ignorant merely means they haven't done their homework. There is no cure for stupid, but there is a cure for ignorant - and people can take responsibility for it.

I dislike the nanny-state mentality that many countries, including Australia, seem to be moving towards. But if people are genuinely stupid, then I cannot ask them to take responsibility for their own actions and nanny-stating is the best way forward. So my pedant-ism above is actually a political position (in addition to a dislike for schoolyard insults): you're not stupid, and none of us needs nanny-state laws. The guvmint cannot intervene between a camper and his neighbourhood bear.

Gone way off topic. Apologies. Back to bears...

500N
22nd Sep 2013, 05:51
Oktas

You can't miss the signs in Polar Bear Country.

I would say BLIND more so than Ignorant.


Personally, I don't mind if the odd Floffy dovey gets chewed
up by whatever in the world. It sends a message.

Enough hunters get chewed, killed but they don't make the media
as well as a "non combatant".

Wolves and Children are the next big danger in the US.

Gertrude the Wombat
22nd Sep 2013, 09:54
Why did you need an armed guard? Isn't that kind of like carrying a gun you self but leaving it for " hired help".
I have never said that I have a problem with the armed forces being armed. Particularly when protecting civilian volunteers in a not-quite war zone.

wings folded
22nd Sep 2013, 19:15
Wings folded,

Having admitted NO experience with US gun laws or purchasing, trading or transferring legal guns here, why did you hold such a clear opinion on the subject? Just uninformed prejudice? Or malicious misrepresentation of the facts?

GF


Equally, I do not have first hand knowledge of being decapitated by a rusty razor blade, but I believe that I am entitled to view that procedure as unpleasant.
Or is that a freedom you do not endorse in the USA?

con-pilot
22nd Sep 2013, 19:34
Or is that a freedom you do not endorse in the USA?

It is just as illegal to cut one's head off with a rusty razor as it is to shoot someone with a gun if not defending one's self.

So what is your point? It is not illegal to cut someone's head off where you live? But illegal to shoot someone with a gun if that person is trying to cut your head off with a rusty razor where you live.

I'll live where it is legal to own a gun, thank you anyway.

Dushan
22nd Sep 2013, 19:53
I have never said that I have a problem with the armed forces being armed. Particularly when protecting civilian volunteers in a not-quite war zone.

Well, what was said is:

The only time I've needed a "no guns" notice was whilst running a polling station in Kosovo. And the only person who entered the room carrying a gun was one of my armed guard, so I got him out of there.

so not quite a member of "armed forces". Sounds a lot more like a rent-a-cop, the kind elitist celebrities and politicians use to protect themselves with, all while advocating removal of firearms from us, the "little folk".

Why would one need an armed guard protection in a "not-quite war zone"?

From my colds, dead, hands...

wings folded
22nd Sep 2013, 19:54
con pilot,

a very disappointing response.

You did not read my post carefully.

I told GF that I feel free to think things on topics about which I have no first hand experience (eg decapitation by a rusty razor).

Neither he nor you will take that freedom from me.

Enjoy life where you live it.

500N
22nd Sep 2013, 20:06
"the kind elitist celebrities and politicians use to protect themselves with,
all while advocating removal of firearms from us, the "little folk"

You can include in that Actors who make a huge living using firearms
and killing people in filmsbut then spend time advocating gun control.

Daniel Craig being a very good example but heaps of others.

con-pilot
22nd Sep 2013, 20:09
Oh I knew exactly where you were headed.

However, there is a major difference between musing about rusty razors being used to cut people's heads off and telling another country what kind of laws they must have according to what you think.

When you so flippantly rhetorically asked or insinuated if cutting one's head off is legal in the US, as if equating the ownership of a gun to such an act, when you very well know it is not. I decided to respond in kind.

No worries. Cheers.


Oh, forgot this bit.

Enjoy life where you live it.

I do, thank you very much and please stop trying to change my life where I live, to suit your prejudices and political beliefs.

Lord Spandex Masher
22nd Sep 2013, 20:18
Nope, still didn't get it!

wings folded
22nd Sep 2013, 20:21
You have still not quite got it, con pilot. I have views about decapitation etc without first hand experience.

I have views about guns in the US, without first hand experience. (Not quite so, I narrowly missed getting hit by a stray bullet in Manhatten once during a nasty exchange between police and ruffians)

I drew no parallell as I am sure you know, just an illustration.

You, Americans, are free to hold views and enact laws according to your wishes, and I uphold that right.

I am free to hold views also. I dot need to have traded guns to hold those views.

500N
22nd Sep 2013, 20:24
Wings

"Enjoy life where you live it."

Now, why is it that people put a sentence like that up (or simillar) but
spend the rest of the thread saying the US gun laws are wrong,
gun control should be tighter, they shouldn't have guns etc etc.

Maybe guns is one of the reasons people do enjoy where they live.

wings folded
22nd Sep 2013, 20:29
500n

You are making things up. Where have I said that American gun laws are wrong?

con-pilot
22nd Sep 2013, 20:33
I have views about guns in the US, without first hand experience. (Not quite so, I narrowly missed getting hit by a stray bullet in Manhatten once during a nasty exchange between police and ruffians)


I must say you are rather unfortunate to experience being just been missed by a stray bullet. As I've posted prior, I've lived in the US for nearly 60 years and have even heard a shot fired in anger.

I have also been in New York City, and not just the nice bits, many, many times and still have not heard a shot fired in anger.

Guess you're just special.

TURIN
22nd Sep 2013, 20:33
Forgive me for butting in on this bear fest, but coming back to the original point of this thread, how many of the poor souls who were killed in this incident were either armed or had the ability to arm themselves.

Either way it didn't do them any good did it?

I have taken this in to account by the way....

1. What you do in your country is your business. What we do in our country is ours. Piss off, mate.

500N
22nd Sep 2013, 20:36
Turin

I think none to both questions.

It was a Naval Facility, No firearms allowed policy.

I think one of the US posters said why earlier to a question I posed.

con-pilot
22nd Sep 2013, 20:36
Forgive me for butting in on this bear fest, but coming back to the original point of this thread, how many of the poor souls who were killed in this incident were either armed or had the ability to arm themselves.


Uh, may I ask just where you got this information?

As it is completely incorrect. Only the police, which responded within five minutes were armed, no one else had any access to any type of guns.

Lord Spandex Masher
22nd Sep 2013, 20:37
I must say you are rather unfortunate to experience being just been missed by a stray bullet.

Really?! I think it's preferable to not being missed.

TURIN
22nd Sep 2013, 20:37
It was a Naval Facility, No firearms allowed policy.

Oh, the irony.

wings folded
22nd Sep 2013, 20:38
Guess you're just special.
You are too kind. Ordinary to the point of boredom would be nearer to the truth

Dushan
22nd Sep 2013, 20:39
Except that the "view" was:


And it has worked. You have that right. And I agree, you need that in the US with all those nutters around you able to buy guns without any kind of question. Freedom, of course!


To which GF replied "

Wings folded

Clearly, you have not had ANY experience buying guns or ammo in the US.

GF

after which you started about rusty razor blades and head cutting, the proverbial "I don't have to be a chicken to recognize an egg" routine, except that you were commenting about a process that is completely opposite to what you think it is, and that not having experienced it does not give you the right to describe it s you have.

500N
22nd Sep 2013, 20:41
"Oh, the irony."

No, a lot of military bases seem to be no personal firearms allowed.

I gathered from the US poster that it was US policy on Military bases.

con-pilot
22nd Sep 2013, 20:42
Oh, the irony.

No, it is a horrible and needless tragedy both at the Navy Yard and at Ft. Hood, that people who were trained for combat, by law* were restricted from carrying weapons so they could defend themselves and others.


* A regulation placed enforce by Bill Clinton when he was President to appease the anti-gun lobby.