Virgin Australia (NZ) Pilots Strike Notice [Archive]

KRUSTY 34

23rd Sep 2013, 00:52

You know it continually blows me away.

Low cost?, Tough financial environment, just help us through this rough patch!

Can someone post just how piss poor the salaries are.

If the paying of your professional pilots (with whom the future of the company literally rides upon), equitable wages and conditions, will in some how result in the financial disadvantage of said company, then why even bother in being in the game in the first place.

The complete destruction of goodwill, not to mention the damage that industrial action will involve, must surely outweigh any ill conceived gain.

Here's an idea. Sack all the HR, middle managers, and other parasites, and use the savings to ensure the long term viability of the company!

greenslopes

23rd Sep 2013, 01:08

Good post Krusty.
Good Luck to those over the ditch. Equal Pay for equal work.
Unfortunately the motivator for better T's & C's will be the attraction of good crews to Operations elsewhere who appreciate what each of these employees have to offer.

PammyAnderson

23rd Sep 2013, 02:21

So can someone who is actually in the know,
tell us what you are actually getting?
What you have asked for?
and what has the company offered you?

Good luck to you all. I hope you all stick together!

Jet Man

23rd Sep 2013, 08:04

Unfortunately the pilot's position is not as strong as it once was. Air NZ can cover a lot of the Tasman flying and VA can cover the ex-Australia flying. Having said that the VANZ (PB) Ts and Cs have needed an overhaul for a long time.

Cactusjack

23rd Sep 2013, 08:33

Krusty, well spoken :ok:
There is always a financial excuse as to why everyone in the frontline should get rogered while management retain their bonuses and unjustifiable salaries.
Take it to them I say, both barrels blazing.

As for HR and parasites, at least RT has gone, that will save you $800k per year. And it is time Borghetti cleaned house and ditched the layers of management and specialists. What a crock. Read it and weep John. And Branson is still getting his tens of millions per year for the rights to use his stupid company name and logo on their shiny toys, another crock. They all cleaned house - Branson, Godfrey, Highfield, Huttner, Sherrrard and Co, all the mates and they left behind a shell that still can't make decent returns for investors. Now that is lame!

astinapilot

23rd Sep 2013, 09:40

I would hope VA will not be undertaking work. It is in their interest to get the Kiwi guys up. We don't want a qf jq.

minimum_wage

23rd Sep 2013, 21:28

Not sure, but believe it is illegal under NZ law for the work to be done by VAA while VANZ are on strike. Anyone in the know about this?

Hugh Jarse

23rd Sep 2013, 23:41

I'm unsure whether action by VA (Australia) crews would fall under the description of a secondary boycott, considering the primary action is occurring in another country.

I suspect any action in Australia would be considered unprotected, nonetheless..............

PammyAnderson

24th Sep 2013, 05:11

So once again, can anyone clarify:
what is it exactly the NZ guys are getting in T&Cs? How does it compare to other NZ operators (i.e jetstar etc)? what has VNZ guys asked for?
and what has been offered by Virgin?
Since the topic is about striking for conditions, can anyone clarify the above? genuinely interested.
cheers

astinapilot

24th Sep 2013, 06:51

Sorry but no, you won't find that info on here, all just rumour.

KRUSTY 34

24th Sep 2013, 23:11

2nd hand info, but told they are on wages comparable to their Australian counterparts.... Flying TURBO-PROPS!! And of course in NZ pesos.

As for conditions, not sure?

Water Wings

24th Sep 2013, 23:37

Not sure, but believe it is illegal under NZ law for the work to be done by
VAA while VANZ are on strike. Anyone in the know about this?

There would be nothing illegal about it at all.

Capt Basil Brush

25th Sep 2013, 02:00

Or, VAA could just take over the routes ex Aus and crew them themselves? With the current reduction in 737 flying its possible to crew some routes out of BN, SY and ML.

minimum_wage

25th Sep 2013, 03:24

It's possible for sure, but would significantly increase the operating costs for JB. Though you never know what they are planning with the VAI 737 operation.....
But JB is saving about 85k per year in wages alone per crew having NZ operation.

limitedrisk

25th Sep 2013, 05:11

There would be nothing illegal about it at all.

Perhaps, perhaps not. Section 97 of the NZ Employment Relations Act 2000 may have something to say about that!!!

Employment Relations Act 2000 No 24 (as at 01 July 2013), Public Act 97 Performance of duties of striking or locked out employees ? New Zealand Legislation (http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/2000/0024/latest/DLM59996.html)

Think it would depend on the company setup and who is deemed the employer. Are the pilots employed by a NZ company or the Australian company.

In other words is the employer the same for the NZ and Australian pilots?

If they are the same employer (from a company entity viewpoint) then Aus pilots may be able to be brought in. If it is deemed a separate employer in NZ then The Australian Pilots will be illegal labour and will find themselves in breach of NZ employment law.

Of course this would no doubt need to be proven in court and by the time it is resolved the "foreign" labour will have had the desired effect to the detriment of the VANZ pilots.

ernestkgann

25th Sep 2013, 05:17

Maybe they could take wide combs with them.

Water Wings

25th Sep 2013, 05:31

Think it would depend on the company setup and who is deemed the employer.
Are the pilots employed by a NZ company or the Australian company.

In
other words is the employer the same for the NZ and Australian pilots?

If the argument was going to hold up, NZALPA would surely have tried it already in New Zealand. Case and point, in the past when one part of the Air New Zealand group has been having industrial action, others elements of the group have covered with the pilot's (even if they sympathise) effectively having no recourse to refuse work if it complies with their own industrial agreement. The fact a combined seniority list exists now would in my opinion only further enhance Virgin's case.

The Trans Tasman element adds something to it but 97(3)(a)(b)(c) reads like this to me with the 'Virgin group' being the employer.
(a) All pilots currently employed by the Virgin group.
(b) Have not been employed principally because they worked there before.
(c) With sufficient notice and complying with all relevant agreements, do VA pilot's have the right to say no?

Of course this would no doubt need to be proven in court and by the time it
is resolved the "foreign" labour will have had the desired effect to the
detriment of the VANZ pilots.

I agree. You would likely find one lawyer who would agree with my take, another who would agree entirely with the counter argument and then who benefits? The QCs just get richer!

Ollie Onion

25th Sep 2013, 07:00

When the Jetstar NZ pilots filed a strike notice quite a bit of NZALPA money was spent on obtaining a legal opinion from a QC with regard to this exact scenario. The general theme of it was that if you can show that Aussie pilots were being imported to carry out work that would normally be flown by NZ crews then an injunction to stop this would likely be successful. The onus would be on Virgin NZ pilots though to prove what flights they crew or what percentage of their work is crewed by NZ pilots as opposed to AUS crew. It is highly complicated and the AUS crews are under NO obligation to turn down work to keep the flights going (except maybe morally), it would be entirely up to NZALPA and the Virgin NZ pilots to stop them.

neville_nobody

25th Sep 2013, 07:55

It is highly complicated and the AUS crews are under NO obligation to turn down work to keep the flights going (except maybe morally), it would be entirely up to NZALPA and the Virgin NZ pilots to stop them.

It could get tricky for the Oz guys anyways as under what grounds can you legally refuse to go to work? They are already doing NZ branded flying (DPS/POM/NAN/HIR) so what's a few more sectors?

Unless there is a NZ court order stopping them I don't see how an Australian employed pilot could legally refuse to fly NZ and Pacific Sectors allocated to them.

Ollie Onion

25th Sep 2013, 08:01

Yep, thats what I mean. There is no LEGAL right to refuse the work for the Aussie blokes, the only thing that might stop someone from 'filling' in over in NZ may be a moral decision to make themselves unavailable.

That moral question in reality is pretty clear cut as it is almost impossible to stop yourself from being 'rostered' for the flying in question and if everyone called sick for it then they could drop themselves in 'it' for taking unauthorised industrial action.

I am hearing around the gossip channels though that the strike is not likely to go ahead as there is an 'improved' package on the table. Here's hoping. :ok:

Voz1

25th Sep 2013, 08:27

If the current situation in NZ were in AU? I can guarantee there would be no suggestion of pilots crossing the line if requested by the company. And if just one posted that they may have no legal choice, the $h!t storm would start, name calling the whole lot, irrespective of his or her legal position!

How about we support the Kiwis in their desire to not be the lowest paid pilots in the region. Maybe some solidarity could help right now. I 99% sure it won't come to industrial action. VA and the pilot group will sort a compromise that is acceptable to both parties. JB is not the type to allow this type of stuff to develop.

Good luck to them, they have 100% of my support. For what it's worth, if I'm asked to operate on the Tasman or South Pacific as a result of action, I for one won't be compromising the process. URTI, sick, what ever it takes. :D:D

Good luck.

wayan

25th Sep 2013, 08:48

Thank you Voz.....

We appreciate your support.
Pretty sure that NZALPA will have clarified the necessary legal position to stop VAA pilots coming over and doing the flying,if its possible.
One of the union members have resigned,but that will probably be the only individual blowing complete cover.......last minute scab action never a good look.
Word is there is a substantial offer,meetings in the next few days.
Marvellous

astinapilot

25th Sep 2013, 09:05

Yes voz well done. I have friends in VANZ and there is NO WAY they would do this to us. Interesting to see when the shoe is on the other foot many seem to indicate they would work. That would totally undermine the goal and you would no longer have any support from VANZ should your need ever arise in the future. Think about the long game here, much better we are all together.

Jet Man

25th Sep 2013, 11:10

Good luck to all at VANZ (ex colleagues), hopefully the improved offer is substantial!

minimum_wage

25th Sep 2013, 20:52

Waterwings, the air NZ strike situation was pilots employed by the same NZ company. VANZ employment is an NZ company with NZ aoc owned by Virgin. VAA is Aus employment on aus aoc.
This and the air NZ strike are two different situations, as is the jetstar one as they have Aus aoc and cross crew with NZ/oz guys. VANZ don't.
I believe alpa and the VANZ negotiators have already looked into this and know it would be illegal.

KRUSTY 34

25th Sep 2013, 21:34

Analogy maybe?

Years ago a chap I know had a vey successful automotive business. Put everything in your wife's name was the advice from the accountant. Guess how that turned out!

Having the two companies separate may have given DJ the perceived advantage of keeping the IR situation local (bit like VAI), and in this way divide/conquer etc.., when the NZ boys and girls finally had a gut full, difficult now for them to step in and fill the breach!

Smartest people in the room, yeah right!

Make sure the deal is reasonable guys. You may just have them by the B@lls!

virginexcess

25th Sep 2013, 22:20

The message in this is that in serious industrial negotiations you have to be prepared to go to the brink and stare the other side down. The Kiwi's have shown that they have the cajones to do this. This does not mean they are militant or extremist, it means they believed that what they are asking for is worth fighting for. That's what solidarity will get you.

PammyAnderson

25th Sep 2013, 22:21

So how do VANZ conditions currently compare to jetstar NZ?

neville_nobody

25th Sep 2013, 22:39

For what it's worth, if I'm asked to operate on the Tasman or South Pacific as a result of action, I for one won't be compromising the process. URTI, sick, what ever it takes

The company asks for your medical certificate what then?

When it comes to unions and/or industrial action Airlines play hard ball.
Make sure you have everything sorted out before you start risking your own job.

Personally the unions should be taking the lead here and sort it out beforehand what position the Australian pilots should be taking before people are called up.

Voz1

25th Sep 2013, 23:13

Neville, I like the rest of the AU based crews get 7 or so URTI a year, no medical cert required. 7 days multiplied by 1300 VAA crew compared to the 140 or so VANZ crew, equals a whole load of disruption, which funny enough is the goal if negotiations break down. Once again, I'll do what I can to insure the kiwis get a fair go.

neville_nobody

25th Sep 2013, 23:37

I like the rest of the AU based crews get 7 or so URTI a year, no medical cert required.

I don't know your EBA but I would hazard a guess that the company would reserve the right to ask for bonafides if required. If they thought there was industrial action afoot they would be calling for everyones medical certificate.

As I said, the unions need to step into this if required, not up to individual pilots.

Goat Whisperer

26th Sep 2013, 01:29

I would like to hear the positions of NZALPA as well as the relevant Australian pilots' unions.

The purpose of a strike is to disrupt operations but not too much, the pilots want to have jobs to come back to afterwards, with a noticeable hit to the Company's bottom line.

VANZ pilots may well support some operations carried out by VAA aircraft and crew. The company will get the headache, and hit to the hip pocket nerve, but it would minimise unnecessary damage to the customers and the brand long term. VAA only has the capacity to cover a little of VANZ's flying anyway, only with VH- reg aircraft. Besides which, few (no) VAA crew would be current on RAR, ZQN, WLG, VLI.

Until I hear NZALPA's blessing I won't be seen east of Cape Byron.

ad-astra

26th Sep 2013, 01:34

Voz1

Maybe knowing your EBA is the first step because I am pretty sure the company does and it WILL use ALL the provisions of the EBA if this disruption of yours eventuates.

Full-time Pilots are entitled to 6 days paid URTI leave each year if they have an upper respiratory tract infection......
Although medical certificates and/or statutory declarations in support of URTI leave applications are not
necessary in the ordinary course, Virgin Australia retains the right to require Pilots to
provide these additional documents.

And some of the best advice you will hear all day
When it comes to unions and/or industrial action Airlines play hard ball.
Make sure you have everything sorted out before you start risking your own job.

Cypher

26th Sep 2013, 05:44

Most VANZ pilots understand the bind VAA pilots would find themselves in if asked to cover some VANZ flying. Legally they couldn't refuse and most would understand that its not worth risking your job over what could be deemed unlawful industrial action. VAA covering some VANZ as has been pointed out would have the desired effect, hurting the company and not the larger travelling public. The same could be said for Air NZ.

Just don't forget about it if the boot gets put on the other foot.

Its the thought that counts though. :ok:

SilverSleuth

26th Sep 2013, 06:23

Firstly let me say, I hope the NZ guys/gals get everything they are fighting for.
They deserve to get equal conditions to those of their colleagues on this side of the water.

In saying that, be warned. This is not 89. There is very very little group solidarity in this day in age of aviation when it comes to job risk/security. There may be the odd person who will go sick or use an URTI etc. however, 99% of VAA crew if rostered to do a VA pacific flight to an island WILL do it.
They will not risk their job. I am certain of that. So don't be fooled. Do whatever you have to but do it with your eyes wide open. Good Luck.

DeeJayLowPay

26th Sep 2013, 06:24

You can just about forget VAA operating cover flights, they can barely cover their own schedule. Then there are only certain routes they can operate (without changes that would take time to insurances etc). So on the day, they may be able to run a NAN service (if they can crew it, and remember they need to fly with 2 sets of cabin crew on any service over 9:45 block time). Air NZ would also only be able to cover maybe a Tasman or two tops. The alliance only extends to trans-Tasman so any island flying would be full charter, and if left to the last minute, would be very difficult to arrange.

Berealgetreal

26th Sep 2013, 06:48

Three words:

Air New Zealand.

Seems obvious to me.

JPJP

28th Sep 2013, 19:25

Ad Astra -

Maybe knowing your EBA is the first step because I am pretty sure the company does and it WILL use ALL the provisions of the EBA if this disruption of yours eventuates.
Quote:
Full-time Pilots are entitled to 6 days paid URTI leave each year if they have an upper respiratory tract infection......
Although medical certificates and/or statutory declarations in support of URTI leave applications are not
necessary in the ordinary course, Virgin Australia retains the right to require Pilots to

provide these additional documents.
And some of the best advice you will hear all day
Quote:
When it comes to unions and/or industrial action Airlines play hard ball.
Make sure you have everything sorted out before you start risking your own job.

Ad Astra,

Would you fly the struck work ?

JPJP

28th Sep 2013, 19:57

SilverSleuth - Firstly let me say, I hope the NZ guys/gals get everything they are fighting for.
They deserve to get equal conditions to those of their colleagues on this side of the water.

In saying that, be warned. This is not 89. There is very very little group solidarity in this day in age of aviation when it comes to job risk/security. There may be the odd person who will go sick or use an URTI etc. however, 99% of VAA crew if rostered to do a VA pacific flight to an island WILL do it.
They will not risk their job. I am certain of that. So don't be fooled. Do whatever you have to but do it with your eyes wide open. Good Luck.

I found the second paragraph surprising and a little sad. I'd be interested to find out the unions stance on the matter. Best wishes to the VAA and VNZ pilots.

I disagree with your opinion regarding solidarity. Spirit Airlines strike about 3 years ago. Only 2 pilots flew the struck work.

Spirit SCABS on Vimeo

Falcon Air F/O SCAB identified !!! - Page 4 - Airline Pilot Central Forums (http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/major/51334-falcon-air-f-o-scab-identified-4.html)

ad-astra

28th Sep 2013, 21:16

JPJP

Whether I or anyone else in VAA, Jetstar, Qantas, Air New Zealand or any of the other carriers fly their routes will be up to the individual and their individual circumstances.

I would ask the same question of you and whether you would fly or tell the company that you are not going to comply with their directions due to moral reasons if that was your opinion.

Perhaps the solution of calling in sick placates ones concience very nicely but if it came down to the crunch and it was the difference between driving home to tell ones family that you have been stood down without pay ufn due to supporting the industrial action of another union in another country or complying with the companies roster then I would be most interested to hear both your opinion and your wifes reaction should you choose to be honest with the company.

Perhaps sitting on the sidelines sipping ones coffee and decrying the sadness of the situation is a little easier than being involved.

I am sure the armchair experts will have a field day on this thread but it does seem that the most sensible and realistic posts are emanating from those that are actually in VAA and VNZ.

Perhaps that is a good thing!

astinapilot

28th Sep 2013, 21:23

Hear what you are saying ad Astra but you must also accept then VANZ doing Vaa work if rostered. Don't mind them doing some domestic sectors? Would work well for the company as would save positioning crew. I suspect this would not go down well so it's s but hypocritical saying vaa can do it.

ad-astra

28th Sep 2013, 22:09

Correct.

A VNZ pilot being rostered to do domestic flying is doing his job.
This has occurred before and it will again and I do not recall any issues amongst VAA crew with VNZ crew carrying out their duties.

Would we have a problem in the future with any individual doing his job again ....absolutely not

Would we like it? No

But there is the challenge for all of us as we do have a common goal to acheive comparable wages and conditions for all crew.

Will they be identical, I doubt it, but we all acknowledge that there is a lot of room for improvement.

astinapilot

28th Sep 2013, 22:34

When they did the dom flying they ok'ed it with our unions first. Had the unions said no they wouldn't have done it.

ad-astra

28th Sep 2013, 22:46

The processes on each side of the ditch may have differed but I do recall that we were TOLD that VNZ crews would be doing some (limited) flying.

I think the realists within the VAA pilot groups acknowledged that it WAS going to happen and our approval was not necessarily going to be SOUGHT or NEEDED.

If you were waiting for approval to be declined by the Unions over here you would have been waiting a long time.

WE have the SAME problems!

virginexcess

28th Sep 2013, 22:50

When they did the dom flying they ok'ed it with our unions first. Had the unions said no they wouldn't have done it.

You're dreamin'

That was just JB at his finest making the unions feel important. It was always going to happen, it was just a matter of what JB had to offer to get support. As it turned out....... nothing.

Voz1

29th Sep 2013, 09:13

VANZ doing AU domestic was as a result of the QF down tools event in 2012 was it not? From memory VAA needed extra aircraft and seats fast, like tomorrow.
The other which is hypothetical is now being proposed to counter industrial action in another country!

Let's face it 2 totally different examples. One is helping the company take advantage of an opertunity, the other is helping the company take advantage of a underpaid pilot group.

Yes ad-astra went back a had a read. I have many options available to me before I am forced to cross the line. Maybe you don't, that's your call.

JPJP

29th Sep 2013, 18:32

-ad-astra

Whether I or anyone else in VAA, Jetstar, Qantas, Air New Zealand or any of the other carriers fly their routes will be up to the individual and their individual circumstances.

I would ask the same question of you and whether you would fly or tell the company that you are not going to comply with their directions due to moral reasons if that was your opinion.

Perhaps the solution of calling in sick placates ones concience very nicely but if it came down to the crunch and it was the difference between driving home to tell ones family that you have been stood down without pay ufn due to supporting the industrial action of another union in another country or complying with the companies roster then I would be most interested to hear both your opinion and your wifes reaction should you choose to be honest with the company.

Perhaps sitting on the sidelines sipping ones coffee and decrying the sadness of the situation is a little easier than being involved.

I am sure the armchair experts will have a field day on this thread but it does seem that the most sensible and realistic posts are emanating from those that are actually in VAA and VNZ.

Perhaps that is a good thing!

Ad Astra,

I'm not sure sure wether I'd call myself an armchair expert, nor would I call myself an expert in this field. Thankfully. I've never held a union position. I have unfortunately been involved in a strike vote and walked an informational picket line. It's an ugly situation and one that I hope neither you or your fellow pilots have to be involved with.

To answer your question - I decided a long time ago that I'd never cross a picket line and I would never fly struck work. I know that my union would support this view. The vital part is the fact that my fellow pilots feel the same way. There are still many flight decks in this country that hold a scab list. They still get used.

In my opinion, there is a difference between the two situations that you referenced;

a) VAA or VANZ flying Qantas passengers is not seen as crossing the line. Unions believe that type of action actually helps, as it theoretically puts pressure on the management of the struck company by ceding market share temporarily.

b) VAA pilots flying VANZ routes would be crossing the line. They have the same upper management, and it weakens whatever leverage is perceived by VANZ pilots. You all work for the same people. The geography or subsidiary argument is irrelevant in my humble opinion.

All of this is thankfully theoretical. You made two excellent points; the law, and the directives from your individual union leadership. I understand that you are perhaps an examiner or a check airmen ? This also further complicates the issue.

Excuse the long reply. Best of luck.

waren9

30th Sep 2013, 01:10

disagree with your point b.

if employees of another mob are legally reqd to work with no legal alternative that is not "crossing the line"

if that employee offers to work on his day off for his own advantage to cover the work of others then thats a different story.

astinapilot

30th Sep 2013, 01:15

So VAA won't mind if VANZ flys if they have a dispute. Or qf don't mind if jet connect of jq do their flying. I find that extremely hard to believe.

Can't be hypocritical about this, it has to work both ways.

waren9

30th Sep 2013, 01:27

if the law that applies to you compels you to work then so be it.

doesnt mean anyone enjoys it

dont like it get the law changed

porch monkey

30th Sep 2013, 01:53

"Or QF don't mind if Jet Connect or JQ do their flying" You been freeze dried or doing hard time for the past 10 years???????

ad-astra

30th Sep 2013, 02:36

astinapilot

So VAA won't mind if VANZ flys if they have a dispute. Or qf don't mind if jet connect of jq do their flying. I find that extremely hard to believe.

Can't be hypocritical about this, it has to work both ways.

I think you are confusing the issue of reality versus preference.

The reality of the situation is that if VAA found themselves in an industrial dispute of such magnitude that flights were being cancelled then most certainly VAA pilots would expect the company to use any and all resources to keep the airline operating.

That would most certainly include VANZ assets.

The preference of VAA crews in such a dispute would be for VANZ to be kept out of the turmoil.

No hypocrisy at all.

That reality should be of prime considration to any of the unions on either side of the ditch no matter what colour their tail is when they are in dispute with an airline management.

If any pilot believes that we hold the industrial upper hand and can dictate how a dispute unfolds has missed Day One of Industrial Relations 101