Technical Info Reqd - How would using AVTUR affect a diesel engine?

[jayteeto]

I know the law, I know it is illegal, but I have a valid reason for asking the question here.
So, if you use JETA1 in a modern diesel car, will it cause any damage to said engine? Are some cars more affected than others?
I am not really looking for opinions, I am looking for someone who actually KNOWS the answer. Its quite important to me, as a friend (really!) stands to lose his liveliehood over some accusations made against him. I am posting this on two threads (sorry mods) for better exposure.

[Wodrick]

AVTUR does not have the lubricating properties of Diesel, so engine wear greatly increased. The answer is to mix them.

[BISH-BASH-BOSH]

AvTur will destory your Diesel pump if used neat, avoid.

[munster]

Usually more suited to older diesel engines. I'm told the common rail ones can be damaged due to the higher injector pressures. Better to run on a mix with regular diesel. Also note that HMRC would be interested if using duty free fuel for the road.

[Wodrick]

To drift a little, many years ago a colleague, with permission, used to religiously do the water drains on our night stop 1-11s. The easiest aircraft ever to drain.
He used to take 2 five gallon containers a night home for his central heating.
After not too long the bottom of his tank rusted through.
Must be a false economy moral there somewhere.

[jayteeto]

Thank you for the replies, I wonder if anyone could explain common rail to me?
Basically, I am saying that the fuel probably wasn't used, because it would have damaged the engine. The cars are an Audi turbo diesel 04-ish plate and a 05 peugeot 1.6hdi turbo diesel with an overboost facility.

[ShyTorque]

Common rail means there is a hollow/tubular rail supplying highly pressurised fuel to all injectors. The supply pressure is regulated via a "Delta P" valve (you'll probably recall that term from elsewhere!) . The injectors are "fired" (opened) by integral electrical solenoids in the injector bodies. The pressurised fuel then sprays into the intake side of the engine.

[NutLoose]

Yep it would damage the engine as it needs lubricant that is missing in diesel, though I suppose a squirt of Om15 hydraulic fluid in it might work... I wouldn't dream of using it though for the said reasons, hence the rework they had to do to get the diesel car engines converted to aircraft engines to run on the stuff.





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[TRC]

For older diesel engines (with distributor pump & dumb injectors) 100:1 Avtur/engine oil works fine. How it would affect a modern common rail, if at all, I wouldn't like to say.

Some engines can be a problem to start if they have been cold soaked on this concoction though..

[RedhillPhil]

Thank you for the replies, I wonder if anyone could explain common rail to me?
Basically, I am saying that the fuel probably wasn't used, because it would have damaged the engine. The cars are an Audi turbo diesel 04-ish plate and a 05 peugeot 1.6hdi turbo diesel with an overboost facility.

Both common rail engines according to my tame garage mechanicien. Anything non-diesel will sexual intercourse them up rapidly with the pump going first.

[RotaryWingB2]

50-50 mix and it will run any Diesel engine, common rail or not.

What the long term effects will be, who knows. I know plenty of airline engineers who use nothing but discarded aircraft fuel, with no problems.

[Aviater]

The Austro engine fitted to Diamond aircraft are approved to run on either pump diesel or jet A1. It IS a Daimler Benz engine. Not like, but IS.

So, though I have no proof, I tend to disagree that modern common rails will self destruct on Avtur. Especially if you stick a bit of lube in your Avtur mix. It's not hard to get a copy of the final composition of diesel and Avtur from caltex. Armed with that info, you can match lube levels with a variety of products.

But alas, without hard data these are but words. :)

[T.R Haychemu]

I am not sure it would be illegal if you were to pay HMRC the required duties (as diesel owners running Veg Oil etc do, once above so many litres/annum).

Interestingly, with diesel fuel in a diesel vehicle - there is a great movement suggesting adding 2 stroke oil makes a huge difference to the running of the engine, post 'ultra low sulphur' fuels, which suffer from a lack of lubricity.

The recommendation seems to be about 300ml 2 stroke (best to use Green stuff, for obvious reasons, and mineral based), per 60-70ltr tank.

I've tested it on my own vehicle and it does make a huge difference to the operation (not so much in terms of power output, but makes it smoother, quieter and a LOT less smokey under heavy load). Google it!

Might be worth looking in to if you are worried about lubrication on a diesel engine running A1.