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Cacophonix
12th Sep 2013, 23:00
Die Waffen SS - 2 - Hitlers Rassekrieger - YouTube

Spitzenklasse...


Caco

Cacophonix
12th Sep 2013, 23:41
Marlene Dietrich - Lili Marlene (Deutsch Live) - YouTube

Ach ...

Caco

Airborne Aircrew
13th Sep 2013, 00:17
They were actually bloody fine soldiers.... A little misled but bloody fine soldiers all the same...

peterc005
13th Sep 2013, 00:29
Yes, you are correct.

They never lost a single battle against unarmed women and children.

Most of them ended up as compost on the plains of Russia. Good riddance.

500N
13th Sep 2013, 00:29
AA

I think the same could be said for a lot of the German troops
when up against other soldiers.

And then you had the Africa Corps as well, lead by Rommel.

doubleu-anker
13th Sep 2013, 00:34
Yes and they lost the war, for the second time last century. Let us not loose sight of that and the huge cost to achieve that end.

SASless
13th Sep 2013, 00:35
My Uncle Bob said his unit had captured some SS Troops after the Battle of the Bulge.....but not for long.

Airborne Aircrew
13th Sep 2013, 00:37
Peter:

Never judge a foe by where he is lead. Judge him by how he performs in battle itself.

Despite the many things they did wrong they were well trained, motivated, tough soldiers who could, and did, stand toe to toe with the best soldiers that could be put against them.

Read the book "The Devil's Guard"... Better soldiers you will not find easily.

500N
13th Sep 2013, 00:39
"Yes and they lost the war, for the second time last century. Let us not loose sight of that and the huge cost to achieve that end."

So did the Argies but that doesn't stop the glowing tributes to the Argie airforce
and pilots, even though they did a lot of damage.


What AA said was that they were in the main, good (infantry) soldiers.
We know all the other crap.

peterc005
13th Sep 2013, 00:44
@Airborne Aircrew - they were murdering fascists. There is no glory in that.

To say they were good soldiers is delusional.

I'm sure they were good compost.

Dak Man
13th Sep 2013, 01:16
AA wrote:
Read the book "The Devil's Guard"
Been searching for it for years, to no avail (unless I pay stoopid prices)

There's speculation that none of it is true.

The Germans Grenadiers & Paratroopers were indeed fine soldiers, although inevitably tarred with the SS brush.

parabellum
13th Sep 2013, 01:23
My Uncle Bob said his unit had captured some SS Troops after the Battle of the Bulge.....but not for long.

I believe the Allies attitude to the Wafffen SS and prisoners changed dramatically after it was found that the SS had systematically murdered Allied prisoners, after that it was "Take no prisoners"

Dak Man You can get a copy here for about $15.00 plus postage:

The devil's Guard - Waffen SS - AbeBooks (http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?kn=Waffen+SS&sts=t&tn=The+devil%27s+Guard)

and for about 10 pounds (UK) here:

The Devil's Guard - Waffen SS - AbeBooks (http://www.abebooks.co.uk/servlet/SearchResults?kn=Waffen+SS&sortby=17&sts=t&tn=The+Devil%27s+Guard&x=104&y=18)

500N
13th Sep 2013, 01:29
para

That was my understanding of it as well.

I thought it was Soldiers they shot ?
One lot was anyway.

onetrack
13th Sep 2013, 01:36
AA - Your outlook is as warped and misguided as the Nazis themselves.

Fine soldiers do not fight for the advancement of a criminal-led, murderous, ruthless, genodical, twisted regime, who advanced their cause by ruthless attacks on peaceful nations and innocent citizens.

The first few seconds of the movie just creeps me out, watching the face of that arch-criminal Heinrich Himmler, and the Waffen-SS worship of him.

You seem to conveniently forget that at the Nuremberg Trials, the Waffen SS was condemned as a criminal organisation.

The Waffen SS earnt no glory, only the worlds condemnation for their ruthless, murderous and rapacious tactics that offend every right-thinking person, and contravened every article of the Geneva Convention, in favour of the advancement of a criminal-led-and-criminally-instigated regime, intent on world domination.

pigboat
13th Sep 2013, 01:44
From MASSACRES AND ATROCITIES OF WWII


THE NORMANDY MASSACRES
(June, 1944) A sensation was caused in Allied Headquarters when reports came through that a considerable number of Canadian soldiers were shot after being taken prisoner by the 12th. Panzer Division ‘Hitler Jugend’. On the morning of June 8th. thirty seven Canadians were taken prisoner by the 2nd. Battalion of the 6th. Panzer Grenadier Regiment. The prisoners were marched across country to the H/Q of the 2nd. Battalion. In the village of Le Mesnil-Patty they were then ordered to sit down in a field with their wounded in the center. In a short while a half track arrived with eight or nine SS soldiers brandishing Schmeisser machine pistols. Advancing in line towards the prisoners they opened fire killing thirty five men. Two of the Canadians ran for their lives and escaped the slaughter but were rounded up by a different German unit to spend the rest of the war in a POW camp. First to make contact with the Canadians was a combat group led by Obersturmbannfuhrer Karl-Heinz Milius and supported by the Prinz Battalion. Near the villages of Authie and Buron, a number of Canadians were taken prisoner. Numbering around forty, they were individually killed on the march back to the rear. Eight were ordered to remove their helmets and then shot with automatic rifles. Their bodies were dragged out on to the road and left to be run over by trucks and tanks. French civilians pulled the bodies back on to the pavement but were ordered to stop and to drag the bodies back onto the road again.. On the 7th. and 8th. of June, in the grounds of the Abbaye Ardenne, the headquarters of Kurt Meyer’s 25th. Panzer Grenadiers, twenty of the Canadians were shot. After being taken prisoner they were locked up in a stable, and being called out by name they emerged from the doorway only to be shot in the back of the head During the afternoon of 8th.June, twenty six Canadians were shot at the Chateau d’Audrieu after being taken prisoner by a Reconnaissance Battalion of the SS Hitler Jugend. Other units of the German forces in France called the Hitler Jugend Division the ‘Murder Division’. After the war, investigations established that separate atrocities were committed in 31 different incidents involving 134 Canadians, 3 British and 1 American.

Teldorserious
13th Sep 2013, 02:53
Takes a special soldier to stuff the gas chambers with women and children and pull the levers at Auschvitz all day. Top Notch.

Romulus
13th Sep 2013, 03:41
Takes a special soldier to stuff the gas chambers with women and children and pull the levers at Auschvitz all day. Top Notch.

Please note the difference between Allgemeine SS and Waffen SS.

Not to say they were angels or even innocent (and certainly many became part of the Totenkopf Div), but there was a fundamental requirement that the Waffen SS were used for fighting.

As for war crimes, from memory Wormhoudt in 1940 was their first shooting of Allied PoWs (by 1st SS Liebstandarte), a couple of days before the more well known events at Le Paradis.

Krystal n chips
13th Sep 2013, 05:55
Showing a rare, very rare, moment of clarity, AA is actually correct in his thinking on the subject of the Waffen SS.

Collectively, they were indeed almost the perfect soldiers. Perfect that is if you wish your troops to be indoctrinated, ruthless, efficient unquestioning and voluntary killers..which, lets face it, is a requirement of wars in general and the suppression of the populations of other nations.

Unless of course anybody can show me a war, invasion, etc that was conducted in mutual harmony.

However, whilst the Waffen SS get damned for what they were, and did, lets not forget that every military organisation over the centuries has had similar elements within the organisation....where the Waffen SS came to grief was that their activities were only too well documented and recorded.....unlike for example, those of the former Empire we had.

For the hard of thinking on here, and there are several candidates in this respect, the above does not constitute any form of support for the SS....quite the reverse in fact.

peterc005
13th Sep 2013, 08:27
The book "The devil's Guard - Waffen SS" - AbeBooks is recognised as fiction.

The military aspects of this book in Vietnam are copied from another book "The Jungle is Neutral" about British commandos.

As I was saying, the Waffen SS had a perfect record of never being beaten by unarmed women and children. When faced by the Soviets it was a different story.

Romulus
13th Sep 2013, 08:37
As I was saying, the Waffen SS had a perfect record of never being beaten by unarmed women and children. When faced by the Soviets it was a different story.

As could be said for the British Army (insert generic unarmed Afrikaaner families and armed Boers as appropriate or any range of other situations throughout Empire), the Americans, the Russians or, well, anyone. Military history is filled with dark episodes that the victors largely get to sweep under the carpet.

mikedreamer787
13th Sep 2013, 08:38
They were actually bloody fine soldiers.... A little misled
but bloody fine soldiers all the same...

I have no respect whatsoever for any men who fight for a
government whose policies of extermination on a massive
scale were the daily norm, no matter how bloody brave or
disciplined or fine they were.

Absolutely none.

Try reading The Scourge of The Swastika and see what a
bunch they truly were.

ISBN-10 1853674982
ISBN-13 978-1853674983

cattletruck
13th Sep 2013, 09:26
War has a perversity all its own.

Prior to WWII the RAF and Luftwaffe were quite chummy as they competed for the Schneider Trophy, these groups really didn't want to fight each other but were forced to.

Friend who was forced to do Israeli National Service tells me he was so relieved it occurred during a peaceful time, otherwise he may have been forced to shoot people he did not want to.

Who remembers the famous photograph of the naked Vietnamese girl running away from destruction, then there is Hiroshima and Nagasaki - plenty of women and children there to.

Many of the world's evil armies are designed so that they shoot their own soldiers who do not follow orders.

Goya's "Horrors of War" tells us nothing has changed in war for over 200 years. Just look at Syria for yet another example.

cavortingcheetah
13th Sep 2013, 09:37
(I have no respect whatsoever for any men who fight for a
government whose policies of extermination on a massive
scale were the daily norm, no matter how bloody brave or
disciplined or fine they were.)

So that rules out respect for the British whose policy of carpet incendiary bombing of German civilians in a deliberate effort to exterminate them was so well practised by the RAF?

Tankertrashnav
13th Sep 2013, 10:11
Around 1986 a plumber came to fit a water meter in my shop. He was Welsh (or sounded it) and quite chatty. I sold militaria and he asked me if I had an Iron Cross in stock. When I said I hadn't, he replied that that was a shame as he had lost his. Naturally I asked him to explain.

It turned out that he wasn't actually Welsh, but Estonian. When the Germans swept through the Baltic states, they set about energetically recruiting. The line was "Come and join us and kill lots of Russians" whom the Estonians hated more than they hated the Germans. As he was young (17) and very fit he joined up and was put into the Estnisches (Estonian) Legion of the Waffen SS, where he spent most of his service on the Eastern front. It was his great good fortune that his division was transferred to Normandy soon after D-Day, where he was soon taken prisoner by the allies. Had he been taken prisoner by the Russians he would certainly have been shot out of hand.

He was sent to a POW camp in Wales where he remained until 1947, and as Estonia was by then a part of the USSR, return would have meant 10 years in the gulag as a minimum, if not a firing squad, so he was allowed to remain and gradually become a Welsh plumber!

I remember saying that if he ever did pick up an Iron Cross he should wear it on Remembrance Sunday. He didn't think that was a very good idea, but I'm sure if those around him knew the full story they wouldnt have minded.

dat581
13th Sep 2013, 10:33
There is a rather large difference between German troops killing Jews along with whoever else because they wanted to exterminate them and the RAF fire bombing German cities to try and shorten the war. Bomber Command gets a bad rap for their bombing campaign but they payed a very high price in losses.

doubleu-anker
13th Sep 2013, 11:43
cavortingcheetah

If you start a fight or war, you had better be sure you're going to win.

onetrack
13th Sep 2013, 12:01
the British whose policy of carpet incendiary bombing of German civilians in a deliberate effort to exterminate them
IIRC, the British commenced the bombing of German civilian targets after the Germans bombed London, which included a sizeable number of British civilian houses (mistakenly, as I understand), resulting in heavy casualties.

It appears to me to be a reasonable expectation that any aggrieved party would respond by bombing enemy civilian targets, in a tit-for-tat process.

To call this bombing a "deliberate effort to exterminate" the German people is drawing a long bow. A "deliberate effort to exterminate" involves more than just heavy bombing.
The total civilian casualties of the British bombing of German cities is estimated at 400,000.
Compare this figure to the 250,000 Germans (including 100,000 civilians) who were killed just in the Germans last-ditch fanatical defence of Berlin, as the forces of the USSR closed in.

racedo
13th Sep 2013, 12:19
There is not nor has ever been a moral high ground in killing people.....

Claims that because Nazis did it a certain way then we are somewhat superior because we didn't use those tactics but used others to kill people is bogus.

I knew someone many years ago who spent time in the Desert and quite openly spoke about executing German prisoners, he said it was because they had no transport for them.........but doubt he even believed that.

He didn't wish to answer the question of "How are you different from Germany military in executing people" aside from saying he was told to follow orders and not bring back any prisoners.........whomever they were.

racedo
13th Sep 2013, 12:20
IIRC, the British commenced the bombing of German civilian targets after the Germans bombed London, which included a sizeable number of British civilian houses (mistakenly, as I understand), resulting in heavy casualties.

Berlin was bombed before London on civil targets. In 1940 it relieved some pressure off RAF Airfields because they bombed London targets in revenge.

onetrack
13th Sep 2013, 12:27
Racedo - Your explanation of the bombing of London, is not the same series of events, as recorded on the following website ...

The Bombing Offensive - World War 2 on History (http://www.history.co.uk/explore-history/ww2/bombing-offensive.html)

rgbrock1
13th Sep 2013, 12:47
K&C wrote:

Showing a rare, very rare, moment of clarity, AA is actually correct in his thinking on the subject of the Waffen SS.

What is it about some people, namely the quote-ee, which causes them to start a posting with an insult?

Or does it come about simply because such people are just plain miserable?

rgbrock1
13th Sep 2013, 12:56
racedo wrote:

There is not nor has ever been a moral high ground in killing people.....

Claims that because Nazis did it a certain way then we are somewhat superior because we didn't use those tactics but used others to kill people is bogus.

War has it own rules. As odd as that may sound, it is a reality.
Certain things in war are done and certain things are not done. Deliberately targeting civilians - men, women or children is irrelevant - is not one of those "allowed" rules.
The shooting of captured POWs is also not one of the "allowed" rules.

Die Waffen SS, although highly trained, highly (ideologically) motivated and highly adept with weaponry (Waffen is the German word for weapons), as a whole they will always remain a band of thugs.

One has to have some semblance of honor and integrity in what they do. Even when waging warfare. The Waffen SS had no honor and no integrity at all. Skilled? Yes. Anything else? No.

Airborne Aircrew
13th Sep 2013, 12:58
It is a huge failing of modern western society that will lead to a sad end that we have forgotten that war should be an all or nothing proposition. When one goes to war it should be with the full force of arms and fully understanding that the end justifies the means.

Unless war is total it is nothing more than a few connected skirmishes that result in an incomplete and unsatisfactory end, witness Iraq and Afghanistan. Both have proved to be an utter waste of men and women on both sides with no tangible result.

Setting aside the "crimes" of the SS, I stand by my statement. They were tough, well trained, well equipped and motivated. That is, pretty much, the definition of a "good soldier" and, as Krystal so succinctly pointed out the list of qualities one would want in your army in time of war.

For those of you having emotional outbursts: It is people like you that are the reason Iraq and Afghanistan have been very costly non-events. The blood of many of our men and women killed in the post victory attempt to make yourselves feel good is on your hands. You tried to help people who still hate you and want you dead and, in doing so left our soldiers "swinging in the breeze"...

War is, in it's most basic terms, an in, crush, out affair. War is not an in, crush, try to play nice so you don't feel so bad about how you were so nasty to those nice people over there.

If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared: MachiavelliNiccolo was a very smart man... It's a pity so few people nowadays avail themselves of his wisdom.

rgbrock1
13th Sep 2013, 13:03
Airborne:

Although I whole-heartedly agree with everything you wrote, you failed to make mention of the fact, or hope anyway, that those men and women called to duty by their nation to wage war, MUST wage such war with duty, honor and integrity. Yes, one should always bring overwhelming and destructive force upon their adversary on the field of battle. But duty, honor and integrity should always be another weapon in the arsenal of any soldier, airman, Marine or sailor. It's what sets one group of professional soldiers apart from mere savages.

Haraka
13th Sep 2013, 13:07
"Prior to WWII the RAF and Luftwaffe were quite chummy as they competed for the Schneider Trophy"

Well that's a new one for me.:hmm:

jcjeant
13th Sep 2013, 13:07
Hi,

About good soldiers and performances ... the actual "Légion étrangère" (the french legion) are the Waffen SS of our time

rgbrock1
13th Sep 2013, 13:11
To compare the Waffen SS to the French Foreign Legion is ingenuous at best. The differences between the two are vast.

onetrack
13th Sep 2013, 13:38
A "fine soldier" goes to war because he believes he is defending a noble aim - and acts nobly, accordingly.

There was nothing noble about the Waffen SS actions - they were a criminal organisation supporting a group of thuggish criminals, and they acted like criminals - and the Nuremberg trials accorded them their deserved status as criminals.

If you mean that the Waffen SS were exceptionally well-versed in soldiering tactics and related skills - then yes, they were good at performing those skills.

The fact remains they were skills practised by criminals, with scant attention to Geneva conventions, and with the specific aim of the genocide of one particular race. That makes them truly ignoble soldiers.

The problem in recent decades with the wars instigated (and largely lost) by the U.S., is that they have all been instigated with little by way of clear, well-defined and noble long-term aims - and they have been operations that have been hampered by excessive political interference and corruption - along with a complete lack of understanding of cultures, alliances, and the subtle factors that can make or break a war.

No-one has any doubt about the soldiering ability of the GI. What Americans do suffer from, is a large dose of gung-ho, enthusiasm to risk their own necks without fear, and a love of destruction on a large scale.
However, the winner of most wars, is the "iron fist in a velvet glove", rather than the sledgehammer wielded without due care.

Airborne Aircrew
13th Sep 2013, 13:39
RGB:

I can't disagree with you but with some caveats.

The weapons used cannot be "authorized" by anyone, it's irrelevant how you die in war - it may not be pretty but there isn't a "pretty" death in a war.

Civilians that appear to pose a threat are fair game. It used to be that soldiers fought soldiers and the civvies stayed out of it. More recently, with the advance in weapons, their availability, ease of use and ability to stand off, (as opposed to taking a pike to a soldier), civilians seem to think they should get stuck in too. That's all well and good but they can't then bleat that they are being shot back at. The main goal of any combatant in war is to survive it - if a civilian presents a threat then the threat should be neutralized.

Attempted genocide is naughty and that's all the needs to be said though it should be realized that genocide is not the choice of the individual soldier but rather the policy of his leadership. Arguments that he should disobey the order are frivolous and I'll refer you to the paragraph above, specifically, "The main goal of any combatant in war is to survive it". Bloody silly to be executed by your mates... Further discussion of this is just a whole can of worms that is best left sealed.

POW's... Of course they should be treated reasonably but there are occasions when this may not be possible. Imagine someone surrendering to you when you are en route to an important RV. Firstly, he may preclude you from making the RV and secondly you probably don't want any enemy to know that you are at that RV. You can't release him because he knows you're there. There's only really one sensible course of action no matter how repugnant it may be.

Duty, honour and integrity are all flexible concepts that any good soldier should apply as strictly as he can with the understanding that circumstances might mean that, for the benefit of the mission, sometimes expediency must be allowed to dictate.

Airborne Aircrew
13th Sep 2013, 13:42
Onetrack:

There was nothing noble about the Waffen SS actions - they were a criminal organisation supporting a group of thuggish criminals, and they acted like criminals - and the Nuremberg trials accorded them their deserved status as criminals.

May I direct you to my last post. The bit that says:-

Attempted genocide is naughty and that's all the needs to be said though it should be realized that genocide is not the choice of the individual soldier but rather the policy of his leadership.

I bolded the important bit.

Cacophonix
13th Sep 2013, 13:53
With respect to the Battle of the Bulge, Operation Greif certainly highlighted many of the issues that are being debated here with respect to waging war and the morality of a soldier's modus operandi...

Operation Greif - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Greif)

"Operation Greif (German (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_language): Unternehmen Greif; pronounced [ɡʀaɪ̯f] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_German), meaning "Griffin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griffin)") was a special false flag (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_flag) operation commanded by Waffen-SS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waffen-SS) commando (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commando) Otto Skorzeny (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_Skorzeny) during the Battle of the Bulge (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Bulge) in World War II (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II). The operation was the brainchild of Adolf Hitler (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler), and its purpose was to capture one or more of the bridges over the Meuse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meuse_(river)) river before they could be destroyed. German soldiers, wearing captured British & US Army uniforms (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Army_uniforms_in_World_War_II) and using captured Allied vehicles, were to cause confusion in the rear of the Allied lines. A lack of vehicles, uniforms, and equipment limited the operation and it never achieved its original aim of securing the Meuse bridges."

As for the summary execution of prisoners, there is little doubt that both sides committed such atrocities.... vide Kamfgruppe Peiper at Malmedy and the massacre of German troops at Chenogne...

All is fair in love and war it seems.

Caco

jcjeant
13th Sep 2013, 13:56
Hi,

rgbrock1
To compare the Waffen SS to the French Foreign Legion is ingenuous at best. The differences between the two are vast.Not at all if you if you compare in terms of efficiency and even their motto "honor and fidelity"
The Foreign Legion is formed by soldiers of all nations as was the Waffen SS
I do not compare Waffen SS and the Foreign Legion perspective motives but simply the point of military efficiency in battle
Anecdotal .. the foreign legion use many of the Waffen SS march songs ... (the lyrics are not exactly the same)

cattletruck
13th Sep 2013, 14:31
AA said,

Bloody silly to be executed by your mates..

The Roman army used a disciplinary process called decimation on its own soldiers to great effect.

Genocide is the method often used to put a complete end to an ideology be it religious, political, or cultural. Sometimes it is also used for pure greed to claim oil, gold or land. The problem with most ideologies is that they need a bit of brainwashing or propaganda as lubrication, but once they catch on they become unstoppable and begin to clash with other well established ideologies. The Bosnian war provides us with a good example of how an ideology that was percieved as threatened manifested itself into neighbours who had been friends for years turning into mass murderers. The same with Somali (could be Rwanda, can't recall) cutting the arms off anyone who spoke French.

Kodachrome
13th Sep 2013, 15:04
german skull soldiers 1x01 - YouTube

603DX
13th Sep 2013, 15:32
Post #14 by onetrack says all that needs to be said about the odious organisation that is the subject of this thread. I find it quite astonishing that in the light of the overwhelming evidence of the historical records of WW2, anyone can express admiration for the SS under any of its labels.

This sad litany of horrors is an appalling testament to many of the notorious episodes in which they were the perpetrators, and even this is not a complete list:

Massacres and Atrocities of WWII in Western Europe (http://members.iinet.net.au/~gduncan/massacres.html)

Cacophonix
13th Sep 2013, 15:52
603DX

I watched the first video in post #1 and was struck by the absolute normality and ordinariness (for want of a better word) of the middle aged gentlemen who were interviewed as ex members of the Waffen SS.

I agree that the crimes perpetrated by the SS were despicable but the conundrum of these things is that not all the people therein were necessarily despicable people. Such is the calculus of an evil system and the basis for my wondering about such organisations and the people that constitute them.

Caco

603DX
13th Sep 2013, 16:17
I watched the first video in post #1 and was struck by the absolute normality and ordinariness (for want of a better word) of the middle aged gentlemen who were interviewed as ex members of the Waffen SS.



No doubt. Try imagining them dressed up in the flashy, vulgar uniforms that such units strutted about in, with all the badges and paraphernalia that seem to impress certain deluded members of today's younger generation. A man's behaviour can be drastically altered when he puts on the 'peacock's feathers' of so-called 'crack' military units.

And the plea that "we were only following the orders of our superior officers" has been used by countless military criminals when apprehended and put on trial. It has dismally failed to protect them from the consequences of their actions while in uniform, as the historical records confirm.

Wxgeek
13th Sep 2013, 16:33
The French Foreign Legion signed up many Waffen SS soldiers after the war.

rgbrock1
13th Sep 2013, 16:39
Although the atrocities done by the hand of the Waffen SS were despicable do keep a few things in mind:

1. By 1945, 63% of Waffen SS troops were foreigners
2. Any one sworn in as a member of the Waffen SS after 1943 did so involuntarily. When it became known throughout German what the Waffen SS were really up to, volunteers dropped dramatically causing the forced servitude to the Waffen SS.
3. Atheists were not allowed into the ranks of the Waffen SS as a belief in God was essential. (Ain't that the shit?)
4. There was an Indian (sub-continent) regiment which was part of the Waffen SS
5. After the Dachau concentration camp was liberated by U.S. Army forces, any and all Waffen SS members on site at that location were summarily executed by the American soldiers. (Lined up against a wall and shot.)
6. The SS 101 element was comprised of mostly foreign soldiers. Including a company of Spanish volunteers.
7. One of the lesser known massacres undertaken by the Waffen SS was the Ardenne Abbey massacre in 1944 in France when 20 Canadian soldiers were executed by elements of the SS. Not one of the executioners was over the age of 18.

jcjeant
13th Sep 2013, 16:45
Hi,

For have a idea of what was really in the head of the German soldiers (all forces) it will be good to read this book:
"Soldaten on fighting killing and dying
The secret world II transcripts of Geman POWS
Alfred A. Knopf 2012
Borzoi Book
ISBN 978-0-307-95815-0"
After reading this book it is clear that the greater part of the German soldiers behaved in the same way that the Waffen SS and thought the same thing when the events of the war and how to

Cacophonix
13th Sep 2013, 16:45
There was an Indian (sub-continent) regiment which was part of the Waffen SS

DIE WAFFEN-SS INDISCHE LEGION/ THE WEAPONS-SS INDIAN LEGION - YouTube

Caco

racedo
13th Sep 2013, 17:22
People will look on what Armies did in later part of 20th century / early part of 21st century as barbaric in 100 years time.....

Agent Orange
Napalm
White Phosphorus
Depleted Uranium shell

All have been used on civilians and they have to make do with the aftermath.

Airborne Aircrew
13th Sep 2013, 17:27
603DX:

Your argument isn't borne out by the facts. Your link to WWII Massacres (http://members.iinet.net.au/~gduncan/massacres.html) even clearly states in Bold Red:-

Where as the majority of soldiers serving in the Waffen SS were entirely blameless, the actions of some units have forever tarnished the name of the Waffen SS.As I said before, most who refuse to accept that the Waffen SS was a bone fide elite fighting unit do so through a knee jerk, emotional prism rather than one of reality.

Edited to add:

The list of recipients of the Iron Cross who were members of the Waffen SS is a little long to be able to suppose that all these awards were granted for atrocities don't you think?

Link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Knight%27s_Cross_of_the_Iron_Cross_recipients_of_the _Waffen-SS)

603DX
13th Sep 2013, 17:35
Interesting points rgbrock1, but not exactly mitigating factors for SS atrocities. Item 5 relating to the liberation of Dachau, if 100% true, might be considered a war crime by the US forces. However, in the ghastly situation as discovered, horrified retaliations by individuals are perhaps to be expected. There appear to be major differences in accounts given by various witnesses, and the number of SS guards actually shot by the liberators appears to be very controversial:

Dachau liberation reprisals - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dachau_liberation_reprisals#cite_note-Buechner-13)

rgbrock1
13th Sep 2013, 17:38
603:

The list I wrote wasn't supposed to mitigate any of the atrocities as undertaken by some elements of the Waffen SS. Not all members were bad, nor did all commit atrocities. Those who did so, were rightfully condemned. But, as Airborne wrote: not all should be tarnished by the behavior and actions of a minority.

603DX
13th Sep 2013, 17:48
Where as the majority of soldiers serving in the Waffen SS were entirely blameless, the actions of some units have forever tarnished the name of the Waffen SS.

Airborne Aircrew, I think that quotation speaks for itself, in establishing that a number of units did in fact behave abominably. Several rotten apples in a barrel are more than enough to absolutely ruin any prospect of the whole batch being regarded as sound. (I was well aware of the 'bold red' caveat in my link.)

Airborne Aircrew
13th Sep 2013, 17:58
603DX:

Bearing in mind I have not, at any time in this discussion, condoned the actions of those who have committed atrocities your statement:-

Several rotten apples in a barrel are more than enough to absolutely ruin any prospect of the whole batch being regarded as sound.has summarily condemned every fighting unit that was ever raised and actually saw extended combat. In fact, you have summarily condemned humanity as a whole including Mother Teresa since your statement doesn't refer to any particular group. Congratulations... :D:D:D

SpringHeeledJack
13th Sep 2013, 18:08
War brutalises men (and women too) and the side of us that lays dormant comes to the fore. Ideologies hone such behaviour as does a sense of belonging to a group, especially if you feel superior to those you are fighting/killing. Your point of view changes and psychologically you are altered.



SHJ

pineridge
13th Sep 2013, 18:16
603dx...............
i read somewhere that the officers uniforms were designed by Hugo Boss, himself a Nazi follower. I wonder if he had anything to do with the wardrobe of Edward.

garp
13th Sep 2013, 19:19
Allied troops weren't exactly choir boys either, plenty of stories to be found about executions in the aftermath of D-day.



http://i40.tinypic.com/2hqysup.png

Romulus
13th Sep 2013, 19:38
To compare the Waffen SS to the French Foreign Legion is ingenuous at best. The differences between the two are vast.

Perhaps less than you think. After WW2 many SS members made their way to the Legion as a "new life".

Tankertrashnav
13th Sep 2013, 23:00
Mention of Indian SS troops prompts me to try and complete the list of non-German (and in many case "Non Aryan") SS Divisions:

19th - Latvian
20th - Estonian
21st - Albanian
22nd - Hungarian
23rd - Croatian (predominantly Muslim, they wore a Fez with SS insignia)
23rd Panzer Grenadier - Dutch
25th - Hungarian (again)
27th - Belgian (Flemish)
28th - Belgian (Walloons)
29th - Italian
30th - Russian (renegade POWs)
34th - Dutch

As well as the previously mentioned Indian Division under the leadership of Subhas Chandra Bose there was a British unit called the Legion of St George which was recruited from disaffected POWs but it is thought the strength never exceeded 60 (sic). They wore SS uniform with a collar badge showing the three lions from the English shield.

So you can see the waters are very muddy when discussing the SS. The popular image of a sadistic camp guard is certainly true of some SS members, who were in any case in the main part members of the AllgemeineSS, not Waffen SS, but we are discussing the Waffen SS here. As someone has said - certainly no angels, but not all sadists either.

7x7
13th Sep 2013, 23:45
I recently saw a programme on the History Channel with a title something like 'Spying on Hitler's Army' (I'm sure it was not exactly that) where the Brits rigged up very high tech. listening devices in places where German officer prisoners were held. They taped any number of (dare a call them 'ordinary') Luftwaffe and German Army junior and senior officers admitting to taking part in massacres of Jews in Eastern Europe. However, none of this information was made available for the war crimes trials after the war because they did not want anyone to know that they'd learned so much using these methods.

I can recall a dramatization of one Luftwaffe pilot speaking about a beautiful young Jewish woman who had had sex with him and quite a few of his comrades in Poland, obviously in the hope she'd be spared, and his regret that she'd had to be killed because she was quite Aryan in appearance, but she had to go because she was, after all, Jewish.

'Hitler's Willing Executioners' by Daniel Goldhagen of a bit of an eye-opener for anyone who thinks it was only the SS who indulged in such activities.

Teldorserious
13th Sep 2013, 23:56
Well it took years for me to realize that I don't have any respect for mindless robots that do the evil bidding of their masters, and it really doesn't matter how disciplined of a scumbag you are, nor that you can do more push ups or shoot better then the enemy's scumbags.

A certain ten year war in Troy was finally ended when 26 guys used their brains. The best special forces ever, in the history of the world, are only as good as their generals blowing the whistles at Verdun, throwing bodies at the Maxim, hoping for barrel change. This goes for they very best being chucked at the same hill in Veitnam, or told to hit the beach at Normandy under the brilliant tactic that eventually the barrel of an MG42 will eventually burn out. 30 years later, the same tactic as in WWI.

So when do we get a chance to see these soldiers trully shine and save lives...when do we get a chance to see them stop a war vs just fight with more brutality and effeciency.

I'm waiting. My guess is that you could have brought some Roman Gladiator back from being long dead 2000 years ago, he would be as good as any Navy Seal or SAS chap of today, with the caveat that this person has actually been in mortal combat and actually knows what the hell he's actually doing. He might also comment on the flying planes, the weapons, pondering why generals are still so stupid as to throw bodies at the problem rather then brains.

jcjeant
14th Sep 2013, 00:04
Hi,

@ 7 X 7
'Hitler's Willing Executioners' by Daniel Goldhagen of a bit of an eye-opener for anyone who thinks it was only the SS who indulged in such activities.
http://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/523447-die-waffen-ss-3.html#post8046940

Lon More
14th Sep 2013, 05:56
Oradour-sur-Glane (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oradour-sur-Glane), where they didn't even attack the correct village, Lidice (http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lidice) the Aqui Division (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_of_the_Acqui_Division) and countless other sadistic murders throughout Europe.

Andu
14th Sep 2013, 13:03
God didn't help them. After the war, the Brits forcibly returned them (and others) to the Russians. More than a few committed suicide by jumping from the trains when they saw they were being returned to the Russians.

P6 Driver
14th Sep 2013, 13:09
So to summarise some of the above;

War is a nasty business.
It's likely that there are both "good" and "bad" troops on all sides.

Airborne Aircrew
14th Sep 2013, 13:49
P6:

I think you nailed it... :D:D:D

Cacophonix
14th Sep 2013, 13:57
I think you nailed it...


And so it all ended happily after all... :)

Kumbaya My Lord - YouTube

Caco

Ovation
15th Sep 2013, 00:45
My late father served in the AIF in WW2, and fought in campaigns in the Middle East and PNG. He spoke very little about his experiences if at all, but he did recount a story from PNG about his patrol's capture of some Japanese soldiers carrying fresh meat, as well as escorting some Indian POW's (or slaves) - their reserve supply of fresh meat.

The Japanese were known to supplement their diet through cannibalism; his patrol armed the captives and looked the other way while the POW's exacted rough justice.

Japanese War Crimes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_war_crimes)

Cacophonix
15th Sep 2013, 00:53
WW2 Nazi music - YouTube

Caco

jcjeant
15th Sep 2013, 01:11
Hi,

Foreign Legion - Waffen SS music
2QI9nogw4Xc

Matari
15th Sep 2013, 01:18
European fascist music celebrated by European leftists. Imagine that.

Cacophonix
15th Sep 2013, 01:32
Get over your shit Matari before I shove a grenade up your miserable American arse...

Caco

Matari
15th Sep 2013, 01:35
Ironic, innit?

Airborne Aircrew
15th Sep 2013, 01:42
Err... Ladies... You're getting silly...

Someone put music to video and you're equating it to some sort of dogma for those depicted in the video...

You both need a bit of a slapping for stupidity. I thought better of you both.

Cacophonix
15th Sep 2013, 01:47
You both need a bit of a slapping for stupidity. I thought better of you both.

Don't take me too seriously. I am slapping myself now...

Fark you Matari... ;)

John Kongos - He's Gonna Step On You Again - YouTube


Caco

Matari
15th Sep 2013, 01:49
AA, you are right. Peace.

heated ice detector
15th Sep 2013, 05:41
A lot of the actions stem from dehumanising your enemy, as well as in the case of the Waffen SS being part of the superior race.
Good old brainwashing which accounts why the Japanese, Russian and allied forces performed their own acts of war crimes. History continues with similar attrocities in Vietnam Nam, Korea, Cambodia Balkans etc etc.
Humane is such a strange word.

Lon More
15th Sep 2013, 06:42
la Légion étrangère, left-wing? What's Matari smoking?

jcjeant
15th Sep 2013, 09:03
Hi,

Lone_Ranger
None of you were thereIndeed !! so better read
"Soldaten on fighting killing and dying
The secret world II transcripts of Geman POWS
Alfred A. Knopf 2012
Borzoi Book
ISBN 978-0-307-95815-0"
After reading this book it is clear that the greater part of the German soldiers behaved in the same way that the Waffen SS and thought the same thing when the events of the war and how to
http://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/523447-die-waffen-ss-3.html#post8046940

glad rag
15th Sep 2013, 10:25
Srx30lxH9Rw

In this second volume of the series, we are given a glimpse into how the Nazis were able to simultaneously discount women as mere baby factories and employ their youth and energy to the benefit of the Reich. The League of German Girls was formed to ensure that young ladies understood, and performed, their duties as bearers of Aryan heirs. Later, these young women were also enlisted to assist directly in the fighting of the war.

rPMGiCV_AOs

Anthill
15th Sep 2013, 11:28
I read an interesting book some time ago about the SS. Apparently the SS did not get the same amount of training in fieldcraft, weapons and tactics as did the Wermacht recruits. The SS placed high emphasis on political studies during their training. There was often friction between the Wermacht and the SS; the former regarded themselves as better soldiers than the Goon Squads.

air pig
15th Sep 2013, 16:26
The way the EUSSR and its intergrationists are going, one day they will try to use the Waffen SS as a basis for a pan-european army.

air pig
15th Sep 2013, 16:29
Anthill:

I read an interesting book some time ago about the SS. Apparently the SS did not get the same amount of training in fieldcraft, weapons and tactics as did the Wermacht recruits. The SS placed high emphasis on political studies during their training. There was often friction between the Wermacht and the SS; the former regarded themselves as better soldiers than the Goon Squads.

They were known as the Asphalt Soldiers for their parade skills and poor fighting skills and high casualty rates in the initial part of WWII by the Wermacht.

jcjeant
15th Sep 2013, 22:17
Hi,

In this second volume of the series, we are given a glimpse into how the Nazis were able to simultaneously discount women as mere baby factories and employ their youth and energy to the benefit of the Reich

baby factories
It seems that Germany has forgotten this industry :)
In fact, the birth rate is declining and the population becomes elderly

Tankertrashnav
15th Sep 2013, 22:54
God help them if the Russians had captured them! Good reason to fight to the death.


(referring to Russian POWs who volunteered to fight in a Russian SS Division).

Absolutely. If you remember my Welsh/Estonian plumber earlier on in the thread (post #24), the reason he was allowed to settle in the UK after the war was that as an Estonian who had served in the SS he would most certainly have been executed if he returned, as Estonia was by then part of the USSR. Don't forget, Solzhenitsin was sent to the Gulag for the "crime" of having been captured by the Germans and escaping back across the lines to the Soviet forces. We tended to decorate POWs who escaped and got back home - the paranoid Soviets imprisoned them as they feared they had been "infected" by their contact with the Fascists.

Airborne Aircrew
16th Sep 2013, 00:23
It's funny really... How many people are utterly cowed by the mention of the SS. How these apparent adults manage to fall apart at the mention of the name SS...

You all need to grow up a bit, grow some stuff in the nether regions and be real men and women...

I challenge any one of you whiners to claim that they would happily fight them face to face and expect to win....

When you have finished crying about what nasty men they were, carry on... :rolleyes:

mikedreamer787
16th Sep 2013, 02:28
In answer to a previous poster re my last burst,
there is no such thing as a fair gentlemanly war
where the good guys fight without any loss of
lives to innocent civilians, who always occupy
the natural invasion routes.

In Don Charlwood's No Moon Tonight he said
how crews viewed with repugnance orders to
bomb the slave labor quarters while leaving the
nearby factories intact. The final speculation that
he postulated was these factories had some obscure
political/practical reason in a post war situation.

Did it stink? Of course it did.

Lon More
16th Sep 2013, 07:04
there is no such thing as a fair gentlemanly war
where the good guys fight without any loss of
lives to innocent civilians, who always occupy
the natural invasion routes.

There was a lot of fighting around here in 1944 and quite a number of civilians were killed but there is never much mentioned about it now that most who experienced it are gone.
One girl (http://www.30thinfantry.org/how_it_was.shtml) put it down in writing.

glad rag
16th Sep 2013, 10:18
It's funny really... How many people are utterly cowed by the mention of the SS. How these apparent adults manage to fall apart at the mention of the name SS...

You all need to grow up a bit, grow some stuff in the nether regions and be real men and women...

I challenge any one of you whiners to claim that they would happily fight them face to face and expect to win....

When you have finished crying about what nasty men they were, carry on... :rolleyes:

So despite the many examples and factual dispositions of both the waffen ss and the Nazis brainwashing of a generation into monstrous, soulless killing machines you still prevaricate with your impotent theory.

Pfft. :hmm:

LowNSlow
16th Sep 2013, 13:04
mikedreamer787 no air force in WW2 had heavy bombers capable of being accurate enough to bomb accommodation and leave adjacent factories standing, no not even the B17s and B24s with the Norden bombsight.

Mosquitos maight have done it but certainly not a 1942 Lancaster and certainly not at night.

No Moon Tonight looks like an interesting read.

Airborne Aircrew
16th Sep 2013, 13:12
There you go Glad Rag... Condemn the whole because of a few. By your standards the entire British Army is condemned for the concentration camps in the Boer War, the entire American Army is condemned because of Calley at Mai Lai, the entire French Army for their crimes in Algeria... I could go on, and on, and on...

The fact is that not everyone associated with any particular group take on the worst characteristics of that group. As I pointed out before, there were over 500 Iron Crosses awarded to members of the Waffen SS during WWII. None were awarded for war crimes and, having taken a reasonable sample, (twenty five or so), I can find just one that was ever accused of being party to war crimes and that was after his award. The vast majority of awards seem to be for bravery in the face of the enemy as one would expect.

As a comparison, the Victoria Cross was awarded 182 times to Commonwealth recipients during WWII.

Facts trump emotional outbursts every time...

onetrack
16th Sep 2013, 13:12
Methinks this is AA in action in this thread ... :)

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3130/2488405020_b270fd88bc_o.jpg

Lon More
16th Sep 2013, 13:16
No Moon Tonight looks like an interesting read

Seem to be plenty copies available on Amazon

Lonewolf_50
16th Sep 2013, 21:10
Peter: are you suggesting that in all of the Offensives in 1941 and 1942, where the Wehrmacht overran immense swaths of Soviet Territory, there was not one SS unit in the fight?

Caco: what was the point of this thread?

Airborne Aircrew
16th Sep 2013, 21:15
Lonewolf:

There were many SS units on Operation Barbarossa...

Lonewolf_50
16th Sep 2013, 21:24
I am aware of that.

I was tweaking the nose of peterc005 (http://www.pprune.org/members/333507-peterc005) and his posts about how SS in Russia only fought wome and children, or something like that.

con-pilot
16th Sep 2013, 21:36
There were many SS units on Operation Barbarossa...

Yes there were. The sad and really tragic thing about that is, when the front line forces came through Russian villages and towns, they were greeted as heroes for driving the Communists out, only to be brutally treated and many killed by the SS secondary forces.

With all the colossal blunders Hitler made, it is quite shocking that he had as much success as he did.

Airborne Aircrew
16th Sep 2013, 21:53
Con:

the SS secondary forces.

The wannabees...

Cacophonix
16th Sep 2013, 22:01
Caco: what was the point of this thread?

To look at the varied and fascinating history of the various units and people in the Waffen SS. To discuss the morality of some of these units and people as well. Historically I find the subject to be very interesting and am glad the thread has generated a debate and so many hits.... ;)

Caco

Andu
16th Sep 2013, 22:31
No Moon Tonight looks like an interesting readIt is.

Charlwood and his crew were the first to survive a 30 sortie tour in the squadron (111 Sqn?) in 12 months in 1943.

'No Moon Tonight' was first published in 1956, when lots of the people involved (if not named) were still alive, so he pulled his punches somewhat in some ways (or perhaps that's what everyone did back then). Many years later, he re-wrote the same story again in 'Journeys Into Night'. As I said, virtually the same story, but with the gloves off, and in my opinion, probably a better read.

If you're looking for cheap copies, go to AbeBooks Official Site - New & Used Books, Textbooks, & Rare Books (http://www.abebooks.com) .

No Moon Tonight Angus and Robertson, 1956. ISBN 978-0-907579-97-7
Marching As To War Christina Stead award for literature 1990. ISBN 978-0-949873-33-0
Journeys into Night ISBN 978-1-876425-24-1

jcjeant
17th Sep 2013, 00:21
Hi,

Fighting killing and dying
Originally published in Germany as Soldaten: Protokolle vom Kämpfen, Töten und Sterben by S. Fischer Verlag GmbH, Frankfurt

"Soldaten on fighting killing and dying
The secret world II transcripts of Geman POWS
Alfred A. Knopf 2012
Borzoi Book
ISBN 978-0-307-95815-0"


Note from the author
I kept ordering more and more documents and found that not only submarine crews but captured members of the German air force and army had been subjected to covert surveillance as well. I delved into their conversations and was sucked in by the internal world of war that unfolded before me. You could practically hear the soldiers talking, gesticulating, and arguing among themselves. What most surprised me was how openly they talked about fighting, killing, and dying. I flew back to Glasgow with some interesting photocopied passages in my bag. The following day, I bumped into Professor Bernard Wasserstein at the Department of History and told him about my discovery. This was a brand-new source, I related, and would probably make a good topic for a dissertation for someone else. “You want to give it away?” he asked in amazement. The question burned itself into my head. He was right. I myself had to excavate this particular buried treasure.

Surveillance protocols (extract)

GUNNING PEOPLE DOWN
“Throwing bombs has become a passion with me. One itches for it; it is a lovely feeling. It is as lovely as shooting someone down.”
A Luftwaffe first lieutenant, July 17, 1940

Lieutenant Pohl, a Luftwaffe observer, from April 30, 1940:
POHL: On the second day of the Polish war I had to drop bombs on a station at POSEN. Eight of the 16 bombs fell on the town, among the houses, I did not like that. On the third day I did not care a hoot, and on the fourth day I was enjoying it. It was our before-breakfast amusement to chase single soldiers over the fields with M.G. [machine gun] fire and to leave them lying there with a few bullets in the back.
MEYER: But always against soldiers?
POHL: People (civilians) too. We attacked the columns in the streets. I was in the “Kette” (flight of 3 aircraft). The leader bombed the street, the two supporting machines the ditches, because there are always ditches there. The machines rock, one behind the other, and now we swerved to the left with all machine guns firing like mad. You should have seen the horses stampede!
MEYER: Disgusting, that with the horses …
POHL: I was sorry for the horses, but not at all for the people. But I was sorry for the horses up to the last day

When you read this very interesting book each page prove that practically all Werhmacht Luftwaffe or Kriegmarine German men were acting no more or less brutally than the SS or Waffen SS or special troops

Airborne Aircrew
17th Sep 2013, 00:47
jc:

When you read this very interesting book each page prove that practically all Werhmacht Luftwaffe or Kriegmarine German men were acting no more or less brutally than the SS or Waffen SS or special troops

A very interesting post. One wonders how many here believe that allied soldiers didn't begin to feel the same after multiple exposures to combat situations...

But that's a bit blasphemous for me to say really... I'm sure I'll be castigated by the utopians in short order... :rolleyes:

mikedreamer787
18th Sep 2013, 02:24
Didn't know that 'Journeys Into Night' was the gloves-off
version of NMT Andu. Might go and get meself a copy.

reynoldsno1
18th Sep 2013, 04:07
Try imagining them dressed up in the flashy, vulgar uniforms
Remember that when you are next considering some Hugo Boss apparel - he also did those rather nifty Hitler Youth uniforms...