RAAF Richmond & firefighting

[Nulli Secundus]

The last few days have seen extreme fires in western Sydney destroy at least one home & injury fire fighters. Ground based fire crews battle to keep the dangers at bay and overhead light aircraft & helicopters drop a comparative spit onto an inferno of destruction.

Meanwhile, just a few kilometres away, millions/ billions of dollars of serious transport aircraft remain idly grounded. C-130 aircraft are designed to carry & drop, already operate in this role outside Australia and military transport crews are perfectly skilled for this type of operation.

Why does our country make it so hard for simple, logical ideas to become reality?

[TBM-Legend]

The USAF uses the MAFFS system in the C-130 today. Why not us? It was "trialed in Victoria some years ago but not followed up on I believe. The earth is still flat for some folks Down Under....
Project Maffs/Hercules - The modular airborne fire fighting system in Victoria

Research reports - listed by theme


Research Report No.15
Author: R. Rawson, B. Rees, E. Stuckey, D. Turner, C. Wood & M. Woodman
September 1982
This report documents the Forests Commission Victoria's (FCV) use of a Modular Airborne Fire Fighting System (MAFFS) installed in a RAAF C-130 Hercules aircraft for firebombing during the 1981/82 fire season. The MAFFS is capable of discharging 11,250 litres of retardant in either a single drop, or up to three separate drops. A more complete description of the system is attached as Appendix 1 (see PDF of Research Report No. 15 above).

Fire Research Report No. 15 [PDF File - 812.3 KB]
http://www.dse.vic.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0014/101228/Research_Report_15.pdf

[Nulli Secundus]

Excellent data TBM.

"The Hercules proved capable of operation in a very wide range of topographical conditions" & " .... a Hercules crewed by RAAF crews could fly effective firebombing operations......."

The hardware exists and the sooner the relevant authorities put together a serious airborne unit such as this to rapidly respond to these emergencies, the sooner we become seriously effective at saving lives & property.

[SgtBundy]

Really? This was done back in 1982 and still nothing has happened?

[RatsoreA]

The RAAF doesn't approve of flying. Wears out the aircraft.

[TBM-Legend]

Remember several years ago there was a project for Oz to purchase a few S-64 AirTankers. Rejected on cost and "what are they going to do in the non-fire season"?. If we had some big helos as well as fixed with dedicated we could move them around the states as required. Hardly MBA material.

But its the bureaucrats not knowing what they're doing and pollies not funding loss prevention correctly. There always seems to be money to pay for damage but not for "insurance"....:hmm:

BAE Assists in Converting Commercial Jets to Firefighting Aircraft
BAE Systems is assisting several North American companies with converting BAe 146/Avro RJ regional airliners into 3,000 gallon U.S. type 1 air tankers, designed to join the aerial firefighting fleets of the U.S. and Canada.

According to the British manufacturer, a number of Type 1 Air tankers currently in the United States' federal wild land aerial firefighting fleet are converted Korean War era aircraft, such as the Convair 580s and Lockheed Electras, are entering the last few years of their operational lives. This forces the need to replace them with more modern aircraft.

Currently BAE Systems is providing assistance with air-tanker conversion programs for Canada's Conair Group, Tronos Plc, and Minden, Nevada-based Minden Air. Minden recently completed its for BAe 146 Fireliner, and is now undergoing flight testing with a second aircraft currently undergoing conversion. The companies operate aerial tankers and provide conversions for the U.S. Forest Service.

"The specialist design and engineering services provided by BAE Systems Regional Aircraft to these operators/conversions in support of their individual tanker designs include aerodynamic/computational fluid dynamics analysis; dynamic loads assessment; structural analysis; technical data packs; flight test planning and analysis; and flight test engineers and pilots," said Mark Taylor, director of engineering for BAE Systems' regional aircraft unit.

[Trojan1981]

There are quite a few surplus H-models now, why are three-four of these not equipped for disaster relief, SAR and fire-fighting instead of being gifted to Indonesia. The RAAF probably couldn't do it due to funding, manpower and operational constraints, but another agency, operating with government funding and RAAF support could.

[TBM-Legend]

The joke is that the RAAF/Govt says these Hercs are worn-out. NZ/USAF/Austria /Israel are upgrading theirs. Hello, Indonesia is upgrading our old beasts too..

It is the bureaucracy not wanting to allocate resources as they'd rather pay the damage bills afterwards because it comes from a different budget!!!

The RAN are grounding the S-70B Sea Hawks. The USN are looking to refurbish theirs for sale! How about a Firehawk conversion for 5-6 of our Sea Hawks???

[Super Cecil]

Some light reading for yoo folks
http://www.pprune.org/pacific-general-aviation-questions/502506-bush-fires-do-we-need-these.html
http://www.pprune.org/pacific-general-aviation-questions/426844-12m-fire-bomber-trial.html
Heavy aircraft discussed in those

[TBM-Legend]

Are the Convair tankers coming back this season?

[Trojan1981]

Good point about the Hawks TBM, the Army are also retiring the Black Hawks soon, and while there are issues with airworthiness and conversion for civil use, these are not insurmountable. You could even N-reg them, like half the bombers we have now!

[TBM-Legend]

Aircraft like these can be operated in the Restricted Category whereby mods and airworthiness requirements are modified or not required for special purpose flying. Australia like the USA and Canada has a Restricted Cat.

All it takes is some Gumnit half-wit to sign off. One reason they don't like ex-mil aircraft hanging around is their perception of latent liability. In other words the lawyers are running the show. Uncle Sam's mob has no such issues. I'll leave this to the Canberra "flat earth society"...:hmm:

[Trojan1981]

Yes TBM, you are on the money there.

The thing about Restricted CAT is that it does limit their operations. Some agencies want their aircraft to be in Charter in order to be used for RAFT (and other acronyms!) teams etc. This means they will get a twin-engine helicopter in Charter Cat that may not have a lot of performance, even though, say, a Black Hawk in Restricted Cat would have much more performance in the case of an engine failure in the hover while winching.

So yes, the lawyers run the show!

[SgtBundy]

With the fires going on at the moment, and our PM donning the photo op suit again, perhaps he could better expend his efforts into securing some MAFFS systems for use off the RAAF base in the shade of the current fires.

We seem to go through this every year, and every year we hear time and time again that "resources are stretched" and follow up with a 3 year inquiry as to how things got so bad.

Maybe its about time we actually put some resources behind it.

[500N]

"and our PM donning the photo op suit again,"

A tad unfair.

He went and did his bit with his crew on Saturday, without media or fanfare,
it was others who took photos and posted it on twitter and that was when the
media found out.

[LewC]

He's only been doing it for the past 13 years so I guess that marks him as a poseur.....at least in some small minds.

[500N]

Probably longer than Sgt has been a Sgt :O

[SgtBundy]

Sorry - just so used to seeing him in fluro for no purpose.

Yes, he is a volunteer and has been for some time, but surely as PM there are things he could be doing at a higher level.

[500N]

"just so used to seeing him in fluro for no purpose."

I have hardly ever seen him in RFS unform, I think he makes a point
of trying to do it out of the glare.

"Yes, he is a volunteer and has been for some time, but surely as PM there are things he could be doing at a higher level."

Couple of things I would say to that.

Firstly, even if he is PM, isn't he allowed to do what he wants in his spare time ?

Secondly, it's a bit late for him to do anything as PM if the fires are already here, unless we want a situation of the PM directing fire trucks from the PM's office :O

I'd much prefer to have a PM who knows what it is like and what is required and then use his influence as PM later if needed.

Anyway, Fire fighting is a State responsibility.

All good. At least he gets out there, more than you can say about Rudd.

[SgtBundy]

Ok, fine, he is god amongst men and has never posed for a photo op in his life and labour probably started the fire as a smear campaign. :ugh:

So, as an experienced RFS volunteer he can appreciate the needs at the front, and perhaps as PM he could get the wheels in motion for a larger scale solution to help combat this recurring threat using some of the capable skilled personnel and machines we have available to our government. Probably not for this fire, no, but surely this recurring theme needs to be addressed.

[500N]

" and perhaps as PM he could get the wheels in motion for a larger scale solution to help combat this recurring threat"

Get rid of the greens and stupid council and state policies re not allowing serious burning off across wide areas.


Anyway, back to the topic, I don't think the mil would want it to occur,
even under aid to the civil power, preferring the relevant agencies to buy
their own aircraft if they want them and then maybe defence provide
qualified crew.

[TBM-Legend]

Once again the Federal and State "experts" let us down. The S-64F sat at YSBK until, I think, yesterday because the contract crew wasn't on-site yet. I imagine that plus a few others might have helped big time in the beginning.

Fire, floods and cyclones are a permanent part of our natural environment [Dorathea McKella wrote the peom "I love a sunburn country" decades before the greenies got in on the act]

Our so called "poor" cousins in Spain, Turkey, Greece etc [France/Italy/USA/Canada] have standing fleets of heavy firebombers permanately on strength and augment them with hired in machines. My friend has just finished flying a CL215 in Turkey!

MAFFS for some C-130's plus other heavy stuff augmented by lighter helps/ag planes etc are needed now....

[SgtBundy]

I can see that would be an issue - MAFFS just seems such a logical solution considering we have the aircraft and crews available that can make use of a bolt on option like that - I would imagine its cheaper to have those units available to be deployed when the situation warrants rather than keeping dedicated aircraft online.

Seeing as it has been some 30 years since this option was last evaluated in Australia perhaps its time for it to be revisited?

[500N]

But you are still using airframe time / flying hours of the military which
they don't seem to get back and so mil training is lost.

The mil units that use these aircraft have a hard enough job getting time in them anyway and planned usage as part of a planned training exercise can be years in the making. If the aircraft are taken out of it, the whole basis of the training can be lost.

If we can afford to give away C-130's to Indonesia .....................
If they are going to keep flying them, why not us in a different role ?

[TBM-Legend]

Maybe 12 Hercs are not enough to meet all national commitments including "aid to the civil power"...

[601]

I posted this on Rotorheads before I saw this thread.

With the present on-going crisis and a possible increase in size and intensity why hasn't any large fixed-wing assets been flown in from the Northern Hemisphere over the last few days. The largest could be here overnight

As far as CAsA is concerned with the operation of such equipment, a declaration of a state of emergency should be made by the state and federal Govts which should include sidelining CASA or forcing fast tracking of approval.

[bdcer]

Why go with half measures......CH47D Chinook with a bloody big fire bucket.

Cost too much? Oh yeah, one SQN OPSO personally purchased a Bambi Bucket & went to the effort to write SOPS for fighting fires. Unfortunately the brass didn't approve his venture....what a waste

[gerry111]

Lots of NSW RFS aviation fire fighting activity from RAAF Richmond today. Three AT-802 Air Tractors, another "Aerial Applicator" (AKA cropduster) and a Sikorsky Sky Crane seen flying around. They were refuelling at the base.

And quite a few retired 'H' model Hercs sitting around doing nothing...

[Sarcs]

Wouldn't this be a sight for sore, bloodshot, watering eyes if you were on the ground fighting fires in the Blue mountains right about now...:ok:

http://i1238.photobucket.com/albums/ff498/004wercras/C130DroppingWater1.jpg
And a poohtube vid demo :E:

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HuF4dKTkCpY

:D:D:D

[nitpicker330]

How effective are those small Helo's anyway? Watching on the TV it seems to be a waste of time.

Bring in the DC-10 :ok:

[WAC]

Having been on fire grounds with Bambi buckets in operation they CAN be bloody effective in the right circumstances. That said, an 802 coming in low along the fire line is a beautiful sight!

[bdcer]

Not sure how big the Chook's bucket was, but the chopper can lift around 26000lbs, that could be a LOT of water.

[Creampuff]

Sarcs

Did you actually watch and listen to the video, featuring the clapped out A model Herc, embedded in your post?

It’s one of the more intelligence-insulting videos I’ve seen on the topic of airborne fire-suppression.

[trashie]

I was the lead for the trials on the MAFFS in 1982 and attended the US Forestry airborne fire fighting training at Boise Idaho. The trial was for the Vic Forestry Department and was supported by the Federal Government. Unfortunately, there were few fires in 1982 so the trials were extended to 1983 and we were heavily involved in the Ash Wednesday fires on Mt Macedon and later in the Gippsland.
The MAFFS released about 3000 gals in one to three shots and penetration was adjusted by changing the pressure of the release which also determined the length of the fire break delivered. Retardant was not directed onto the fire but next to it to reduce the heat and allow ground fire fighters to operate.
Unfortunately there were only three airfields in Victoria (except the major airports) that could take the C130 at maximum weight and hot temps(Hamilton, Mangalore and East Sale) close to forests without destroying the strips.

The turn around time of the aircraft refuel was slow due to the slow output from the retardant pump and using above ground swimming pools to mix the batches. With one aircraft while it did save some houses, the concentration of effort was not sufficient to be effective.
In the US they stack the aircraft up to 10,000+ so by the time the last aircraft has dropped it load the first is back on task. Our tune around time to Macedon from Mangalore was about 1 hour.
The aircraft had to maintain a considerable amount of fuel in the outboard tanks to ensure maximum 'G' tolerance with the heavy load in the cargo compartment (40,000lbs).

Exciting flying at 100 feet but with limited effect with the one aircraft.

[Trojan1981]

Hey Trashie,

Great post, thanks for sharing. it would be interesting to compare rate of application with, for example, two equipped Hercs against current types up to the same operating cost.

The Bell 214 helicopters are lifting around 3000L with each bucket or tank load and their rate of application can be quite high when there are water sources nearby, same withe the Dauphin and UH-1, but with lesser amounts.

I can't remember, off the top of my head, the objective of the fixed wing AT-602/802 bombers when I was working with those guys in WA, but I think it was something like 5000L per hour on any given fire, which seems like a low number and a single Herc (even with 1hr turn around) would easily better that. There are vested interests in both emergency management and aviation industry (and extreme resistance to change in the ADF) that seem to keep us tied to what we have always had, rather than seeking innovation and best practice. The move to NAFC contract coordination is a good one, and hopefully a sign of more to come. Natural disasters are an international problem and should be handled at federal level when declared.

[grug]

Probably best to have a close look at those figures, chopper opperators are prone to exaggerate with the ammount they are lifting. Even if the stats for the chopper say it can lift that much, most likely that is at sea level, isa day and perfect conditions. Throw in Australian summer temps, a few mountains, wild turbulence, fuel load crew, role equipment. And you will find there is more hot air in those belly tanks than usefull load.

As for the litres per hour comparisons ferry distances is the largest factor that controls the rate. For 5000L per hour you are looking at less than 2 loads that hour.

If 4 minutes is an average fill and taxi time, by 2 loads then there is 52 minutes of ferry and drop time left in that hour. Guessing the fire is not exactly on the airport boundary with that turn around time.

[Trojan1981]

Grug,

There was also a range attached to that capability, but I can't remember it off the top of my head.

The helicopters are, of course, limited by the usual factors, but I know for a fact that the B214 is lifting it's stated numbers even with the engine further derated. It does all depend on water sources near the fire, but the helicopter application rate can be extremely high, often well above fixed wing figures, but of course the operating costs are much higher.

In an urban environment, I would suggest that rotary wing bombers are much more prescise and better the fixed wing aircraft in application rate due to abundance of water sources that do not even require a landing (golf courses, swimming pools, creeks, rivers, the ocean etc.).

[plucka]

Trojan, your memory deserts you I am afraid. I fly a SEAT (single engine air tanker) AT802 to be exact. With an airstrip within 5 miles from the fire ground I have delivered 30000 ltrs to the fire within an hour. We had 5 x 802's doing the same thing. Do the math on ltrs delivered per tax payer dollars spent it is very difficult to beat the AT802.

The question you guys should be asking is why it takes sooo long for some States to deploy their aircraft to a fire? One of the Australian States has a system where 2 bombers (up to 6000ltrs) are overhead every fire in the populated areas within 15 mins of someone calling 000. Seems like a good idea.....

[500N]

Plucka

Which one (State) ?

[plucka]

South Australia.
Talking to a couple of Crane pilots who fight fires all year round in each hemisphere, they believe it is the best system they have ever seen.

[Vincent Chase]

Fireboss dropped 60 loads yesterday. Hardly ineffective..

[500N]

Not sure if this is the right spot for it but I thought this was a good and different photo from the Age newspaper today.

http://i39.tinypic.com/2v8g38n.jpg