Their or There?

[SOSL]

Quote from the OED [with my comments in square brackets]:

"Do not confuse their and there:

their is a possessive determiner, used for example in they all tried to hide their faces and said nothing, [Air Force Board?]

while there is an adverb of place or position, as in I took a trip up there last week, and is used in phrases such as there is/are: we are aware there are problems [but we won't do anything].

On the use of their in the singular to mean ‘his or her’, see they (usage) (http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/they#they__7)."

The grammar applies, whatever time of night it is, but is often affected by alcohol.

Rgds SOS

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

I fully support your stance against the growing trend towards generally crap use of English but (at the risk of becoming a victim inattention) I can identify cases where the bloody MS Spellchecker has stabbed people in the back. Anyway, good luck on raising attention to this most irritating point.

[SOSL]

If you rite "cat" wen you meen "dog" the spell checker won't pick it up!

Rgds SOS

[Airborne Aircrew]

Eye halve a spelling chequer
It came with my pea sea
It plainly marques four my revue
Miss steaks eye kin knot sea.
Eye strike a key and type a word
And weight four it two say
Weather eye am wrong oar write
It shows me strait a weigh.
As soon as a mist ache is maid
It nose bee fore two long
And eye can put the error rite
Its rare lea ever wrong.
Eye have run this poem threw it
I am shore your pleased two no
Its letter perfect awl the weigh
My chequer tolled me sew.


Nothing is better than the human brain... except most of the humans who seem to lack one... :ugh:

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

Smart buggers. :D

[500N]

SOSL

You must frown when you read my posts, this is the one thing
in the English language I had problems with and although I
think I have got better, when I go back and read the odd post
I see mistakes.

[Courtney Mil]

A point well raised. There, their and (may I add) they're.

We could also add 'sat and sitting' or 'less and fewer'.

[Capetonian]

Whoever wrote this article doesn't know what there talking about. Is their any point to it? They're doesn't seem to be.

[SilsoeSid]

When do we get to, 'i before e, except after c'.

I've never understood the science behind that one :E

[WH904]

Don't even get me started. Pprune is probably one of the better forums (fora!) for decent spelling and grammar. Some of the aircraft sites are horrifying.

I think the most amusing faux pas of recent days was on Matthew Wright's TV show on Channel 5. They ran a story about keeping kids at school longer so they might learn how to read and write (imagine) and the caption they ran throughout the show read "... kids at school till sixteen" (or words to that effect. Brilliant stuff, you couldn't make it up :)

[Wensleydale]

Spell checkers can be a pain..... the one connected to DII forever tried to change my signature block from "Flt Lt" to "Fat Lt", but probably with good reason.

[Capetonian]

Predictive texting is a pain.

I got a text on my phone from a female friend : Please ball me as soon as you can I will be good.
I was disappointed to find out that it was meant to say : Please call me as soon as you can I will be home.

[ShyTorque]

I've red owl through this during a break from digging a deep drainage sough in Slough, which makes me cough, and I bough to those with a better knowledge of grandma than what I have got.

[airpolice]

Sid, here is the kind of stuff that makes it difficult.

beige, codeine, conscience, deify, deity, deign, eider, eight, either, feign, feint, feisty, foreign, forfeit, freight, heifer, heigh-ho, height, heinous, heir, heist, neigh, neighbour, neither, peignoir, prescient, rein, science, seine, seismic, seize, sheik, society, sovereign, surfeit, veil, vein, weight, weir, weird.

[ORAC]

They're not the only variations.......

[Pontius Navigator]

And confusion is why we have Port and probably why the Titanic hit the iceberg.

[ORAC]

And confusion is why we have Port and probably why the Titanic hit the iceberg. That Damned Ship's Wheel! (http://www.titanicebook.com/wheel.html)

[SilsoeSid]

airpolice, did you actually reid my post :ugh:

[goudie]

Your and you're are often confused too. So is to and too!

I ignore the corrections made by SC which refer to American spelling,
ie favor ect.

[Tankertrashnav]

We could also add 'sat and sitting' or 'less and fewer'.

Sat and sitting is a lost cause, I'm afraid. I now find myself thinking "was that correct?" when I say "I was sitting/standing" as I hear "I was sat/stood" so often.

I think "fewer" is making a comeback, though, eg supermarkets having checkouts marked "five items or fewer".

[Pontius Navigator]

I think a lot of English taut in the passed past a lot pupils bye.

[SOSL]

Once upon a time I received a general application form, submitted by a LAC Flight Line Mechanic (remember them?).

He wanted early replacement of his no.2 trousers; which had lost the will to live after only 6 months on the Flight Line.

The reason for his request was, as he had written the form, "fare ware and tare".

He got his new trousers and his Corporal had a quite word with him.

Rgds SOS

[langleybaston]

to which please add:

Wales [not to mention Whales]

Wales's as in the Prince's possession]

The Waleses [as proud parents of boy George]

The Waleses's son [see George above]

My skoolteacha dorta sez I'm rong thees daze.

[Party Animal]

It annoys me with the creeping use of Americanisms in the English language and particulary on the BBC. As an example - use of the word 'appeal'.

Once upon a time, someone would appeal 'against' a decision.

Now they appeal the decision! Aaaarrrgghhh!!

As for encouraging a generation of tv presenters and DJ's to talk in stupid Geordie accents or Ali G yoofspeak, then God help us. What future for our children!! :ugh:

[SOSL]

Not at all; I never frown. I just sit quietly in a darkened room for a while!

Rgds SOS

[SOSL]

There's nowt wrang wi Geordie, Manna!!

Rgds SOS

[langleybaston]

Coming shortly:
the verb "to farewell" ............. what Australians do at a funeral.

"I'm good!"

[Courtney Mil]

...and it's 'transport' not 'transportation'.

How about the use of 'was' and 'were'? As in, 'If I was to win the lottery.' AAARRGGHH!

[haltonapp]

I was always amazed at the number of people writing in the F700 about a problem gauge, spelt gauge "guage". It does not even look right!

[Riskman]

Cauliflower's £1 each. Discuss. :ugh:

[Danny42C]

(Following SOSL's #22)

We once had one of our lads who wrote in, asking for a recommendation for a Commission. Only trouble was: he couldn't spell it.

Titter not ! (as Frankie Howard used to say). When we got our post-war influx of new boys and girls as Air Traffic Controllers, I often had (tactfully) to point out spelling errors in the Log to Henlow's finest.

Churchill had the right of it: "I would not have boys beaten at school. Except for not learning English. And I would beat them very hard for that !"

[BEagle]

Even varieties of English within the UK can cause difficulty...

"Stop while lights flash!", to normal people means do not move when the level crossing lights are flashing. To some FNMs, it means "Stop, then when the lights flash, move off...." :mad:

Ringing the OM at Leuchars once to speak to a colleague, I was told "He'll be here just now". "OK, please put him on." "No sir, he'll be here just now...". I gather that 'just now' is Jockistani for 'soon'.

As for Americanizations wordwise, 'awesome' is oft misused. But the one which annoys me most is 'momentarily' instead of 'soon'. "We'll be back momentarily after these words" actually means that the speaker will return briefly, then disappear.

'Guage' instead of 'gauge' was indeed a common error, haltonapp. As was 'muted' instead of 'mooted'.

As for those who cannot understand thence, hence, whence, thither, hither, and whither....:(

Then there's 'whilst' and 'while' - although I do agree that 'whilom' is somewhat archaic!

'Practice' and 'practise' are also frequently used incorrectly.

[Rosevidney1]

I hear 'sat' for 'sitting' very frequently but the word 'seated' seems to have disappeared. :sad:

[SOSL]

No, no, no - that's not what I meant!

My OP was simply a gibe at the old duffers, like me, who forget their Ps and Qs when they are posting late at night or after a few glasses of anything approaching 35%.

That's why I said The grammar applies, whatever time of night it is, but is often affected by alcohol.


I didn't mean to poke fun at anyone who has difficulties with the English language.

My example of the Flight line Mechanic - his Cpl arranged an eight week, one day a week, course for him at the Stn Ed Centre, taught by a delightful WRAF Fg Off, which improved all his communication skills by leaps and bounds. However, you can't say that his gen app was in any way ambiguous.

Many wonderful people show symptoms of dyslexia and other language difficulties and some equally wonderful people have small language problems (cf 500N).

My beef is with the guys who are just too lazy to bother.

Darkened room, Black Grouse!

|Rgds SOS

[500N]

SOSL

"My example of the Flight line Mechanic - his Cpl arranged an eight week, one day a week, course for him at the Stn Ed Centre, taught by a delightful WRAF Fg Off, which improved all his communication skills by leaps and bounds."

Leadership , taking care of your troops :ok:


"My beef is with the guys who are just too lazy to bother."
+ 1


Sometimes I feel English has too many rules although I am no a great
fan of the American way of simplifying it.

[SOSL]

Thanks for your response.

The thing about most English language rules (Grammar or syntax) is that often they have more impact when they are broken than when they are observed.

That is something we just have to put up with. We have to boldly go wherever the language takes us.

Rgds SOS

[CoffmanStarter]

d eng lngwij iz fR t% complicated 4 most yung ppl dEz days :E

[500N]

"d eng lngwij iz fR t% complicated 4 most yung ppl dEz days http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/evil.gif"


Thats becoz the yoof of 2day are to lazey to lurn !

[TomJoad]

Lets eat grandad:E

[Warmtoast]

Many years ago I was taught that when writing English that:

Each pronoun agrees with their antecedent.
Just between you and i case is important.
Verbs has to agree with their subjects.
Watch out for irregular verbs which have crope into our language.
Don’t use no double negatives.
A writer mustn’t shift your point of view.
When dangling, don’t use participles.
Join clauses good, like a conjunction should.
Don’t write a run-on sentence you have to punctuate it.
About sentence fragments.
In a letter themes reports articles and stuff like that we use commas to keep a string of items apart.
Don’t use commas, which aren’t necessary.
Its very important that you use apostrophe’s right.
Don’t abbrev.
Check to see if you have any words out.
As far as incomplete constructions, they are wrong.
Never use a preposition to end a sentence with.
It is important to never ever under any circumstances split an infinitive.
The active voice is preferred.
Use of the passive voice is to be avoided.
Eschew obfuscation.
Never use a long word when a diminutive one will do
Last but not least, avoid clichés like the plague.

The English language is so illogical as in the examples below

The market garden was designed to produce produce.
The city tip was so full that it had to refuse more refuse.
In the boat, a row erupted amongst the oarsmen about how to row.
The nurse wound the crepe bandage around the wound.
Dessie decided to desert his dessert in the desert.
Chloe was too close to the door to close it.
When Ted saw the tear in the painting he shed a tear.
How can I intimate my thoughts to my most intimate friend?
Sherrie shed her shoes in the shed.
In terms of weight lead is in the lead.
Since there is no time like the present, he thought it was time to present the present.
When the stars are out they are visible, but when the lights are out, they are invisible.
Why do our noses run but our feet smell?
I did not object to the object.
Freddie filled in his form by filling it out.
Why do performers recite a play, yet play at a recital?
I went up to university in the down train.

[Airborne Aircrew]

We once had one of our lads who wrote in, asking for a recommendation for a Commission. Only trouble was: he couldn't spell it.

That's good, but I think I can do better...

I had advertized for help. This isn't just any old help. I was looking for a Network, (computer), Adminstrator with at least 5 years experience. The resumes came in thick and fast.

I have a thing for proper spelling and grammar in a resume when you consider that a Network Admin with five years experience should be able to, (and feel a need to), turn on his spell checker and grammar checker just for giggles.

Imagine my surprise to find that one applicant had spelled his own name wrong.... :ugh:

Before you laugh and say I'm fibbing I knew he had done so because the name on the cover letter was spelled differently from that on his resume... :D:D:D

[500N]

The spell checkers that try to convert you to a different way of spelling
have now confused me on some things. Like is it 'ise or 'ize.

You end up second guessing yourself.

[Melchett01]

Good grammar - the difference between knowing your **** and knowing you're ****:ok:

[Airborne Aircrew]

Melchett:

Brilliant... Even better than trying to decide if it's:-

Let's eat Grandma, and

Let's eat Grandma...

:D:D:D

[BEagle]

Good grammar - the difference between knowing your **** and knowing you're **** :ok:

Or the difference between helping your Uncle Jack off his horse....

...and helping your uncle jack off his horse := ??

[Arm out the window]

Your and you're are often confused too. So is to and too!

I fort to and too wos fore, but maybe its five.

[TomJoad]

I feel like I have fallen into the deepest darkest part of the internet where we discuss the horror of the split infinitive:sad:

And don't get me started on the use of "literally" :oh:

[500N]

Not shore how you no all these rules !

[Airborne Aircrew]

Tom:

I feel like I have fallen into the deepest darkest part of the internet where we discuss the horror of the split infinitive

Don't worry, tomorrow we will boldly go where no JetBlaster has gone before and discuss aviation related stuff... :E

[ShyTorque]

The most incorrect phrase of all:

Langleybaston with:

The Waleses [as proud parents of boy George]

Boy George | Official Website (http://www.boygeorgeuk.com/)

Surely not!

[Danny42C]

SOSL

(Your #34) I don't think we're too far apart. (Quote): "I didn't mean to poke fun at anyone who has difficulty with the English language".

Nor do I. These people are victims; no blame is to be laid at their door. They are the victims of the catastrophic "liberal" educational policies which have been adopted in Britain these last 50 years. The young man who "had difficulty" with the word "Commission" was not uneducated - he had a string of good "O" Levels as long as your arm.

The later young ladies and gentlemen who came to us had (IIRC) to be of minimum "A" Level standard - many were graduates. They simply had not, at any stage, been taught English grammar, syntax and spelling properly.

The sad truth is that our schools are simply not doing their job. It is a commonplace that many primary schoolchildren are being introduced to secondary education without the basic literacy and numeric skills which they need to take advantage of it. How can it be otherwise ? In about '65, I spoke to a colleague who was retiring and had been accepted for teacher training. He had been surprised to find that not even an "O" Level in English was a requirement for this.

So it feeds into secondary education, where the "Concrete Jungle" and "Bog-Standard Comprehensives" are by no means fictional. Lack of discipline in the classroom is at the heart of it, without that the disruptive element will neither learn themselves nor allow others to do so. There is a right to be educated, but it comes with a duty to learn.

All this leads to the inevitable conclusion: I have read recently that 40% of school leavers at 16 are able to read and write only to the standard expected of those two (or more ?) years earlier, and I understand that the Government is to require these to attend two years further education in order to remedy the failings of the previous 11....... A satisfactory state of affairs ?

Rant over and out, Cheers !..D.

[Samuel]

Relax and enjoy what we have today, because believe me future generations will be a lot worse.With computer technology in primary schools,[ and in one case of a grandaughter aged 4,:ok: Daycare!] there will soon be generations of kids who never learned to write, let alone spell! I send text messages without shorthand, which my grandkids think is hilarious though I do note they don't use their shorthand replying to me!:ok:

[Canadian Break]

"For Free"; another one now in general use. "You can have it for free"! No I bloody can't - it is either "free" (i.e. for nothing) or you can have it for nothing!:ugh:

[500N]

Is it any wonder kids can't spell when you see words like
Nite and Tru on products and in general use. I can't think
of others at the moment but many exist.

[The Oberon]

It's an old one but punctuate this.

Smith where Jones had had had had had had had had had had had the teachers aproval.

[Capetonian]

Smith, where Jones had had "had", had had "had had". "Had had" had had the teachers approval.

There are different possibilities. I think that the above is one. Being a pedant, I've also corrected a typo!

[500N]

No offense to Capetonian, here is another one that has crept into everyday use.

"Being a pedant, I've also corrected a typo!"


I am sure my English teacher said it was a "spelling mistake".

When did "typo" come into use ?


Edit
Is it offense or offence ? :O

[Capetonian]

I disagree. There is a difference between a spelling mistake, where one simply does not know how to correctly spell a word, such as persistently not knowing the difference between the use of 'practice' and 'practise', although it is arguable that that is a grammatical rather than a spelling error, and a typing mistake which has not been spoted and corrected (yes it was deliberate!)

Words like 'unnecessary' with double consonants often throw me.

[dubbleyew eight]

all of this spelling confusion was caused by the bloody americans trying to streamline the language and rationalise the spelling.

the word is colour!
the word is aeroplane!

bloody americans......:mad:

[Party Animal]

The latest from BBC Breakfast. Former MP and convict Chris Hune suggesting that he should have "fessed up" to his crime much earlier.

W@nker!

I also see the use of 'my bad' creeping in on Pprune.

What's wrong with 'you people'??? ;)

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

In the days of using a desk, computer and MS Word provided by Aunty Betty, I used to do a standard pre typing check. That was to type "colour" and see if clocked as a spelling mistake; the reason being that every time the IT wallahs applied "updates" to the system, it turned the spell checker back on that would go to its default setting of that mythical being, "American English". :{

[BEagle]

Party Animal, the other nonsense which has crept in is "I'm good" instead of "I'm well" or "I'm fine".

I think it came from Australia - hence its popularity amongst yoof familar with the topography of Miss Minogue's bottom?

[CoffmanStarter]

BEagle do keep up old chap ... Miss Minogue is so last decade :E

Most UK male Uni students these days follow the young ladies from Home and Away ... so I'm told :hmm:

http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/af162/CoffmanStarter/image_zps1dc882f9.jpg

[SOSL]

Coff don't get him started. It's too early in the morning for another picture of Susannah York!

Rgds SOS

[Ringway Flyer]

Not sure about 'over and out'... Shouldn't it be either 'over' or 'out'? (No point in passing back to the other party if you're not going to be there!!)

This makes interesting reading, and should be mandatory for all market traders:-

Apostrophe Use (http://www.apostrophe.org.uk/page2.html)

(apple's, DVD's etc...)

I think only a passing mention was made about 'I' and 'me' - another common error I find irritating.

[ian16th]

500N,

Surely 'typo' is/should be used for inadvertently pressing the wrong, usually adjacent, key?

This of course results in a spelling error, but was not because of the operators inability to spell the word correctly.

[500N]

ian

Agree.........

[SOSL]

Hi, AA. Check this out

Simplified Technical English - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simplified_Technical_English)

Rgds SOS

[goudie]

More confusion. May I? Can I?

My American grandchildren, after telling me 'they're good', to my question, what are you doing? 'Chillaxing granddad!':confused:

[Tankertrashnav]

Is it offense or offence ? http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/embarass.gif


That depends upon whether you are using British or American spelling systems (both equally valid).

There are several instances in British English where words such as licence, practice, etc are spelt with a 'c' when used as a noun, but with an 's' when used as a verb. For example:

"We went to rugby practice, where we practised scrums and lineouts."

"His driving licence shows that he is licensed to drive HGVs."

Of course the verb from offence is offend, but the same principle applies - US English always prefers the 's' spelling over the 'c', and makes no distinction between the spelling of the noun and the verb.

[Rigex]

We'll begin with a box, and the plural is boxes,
But the plural of ox becomes oxen, not oxes.
One fowl is a goose, but two are called geese,
Yet the plural of moose should never be meese.
You may find a lone mouse or a nest full of mice,
Yet the plural of house is houses, not hice.


If the plural of man is always called men,
Why shouldn't the plural of pan be called pen?
If I speak of my foot and show you my feet,
And I give you a boot, would a pair be called beet?
If one is a tooth and a whole set are teeth,
Why shouldn't the plural of booth be called beeth?


Then one may be that, and three would be those,
Yet hat in the plural would never be hose,
And the plural of cat is cats, not cose.
We speak of a brother and also of brethren,
But though we say mother, we never say methren.
Then the masculine pronouns are he, his and him,
But imagine the feminine: she, shis and shim!


Let's face it - English is a crazy language.
There is no egg in eggplant nor ham in hamburger;
neither apple nor pine in pineapple.
English muffins weren't invented in England.
We take English for granted, but if we explore its paradoxes, we find
that quicksand can work slowly, boxing rings are square, and a guinea
pig is neither from Guinea nor is it a pig.


And why is it that writers write but fingers don't fing, grocers don't
groce and hammers don't ham?


Doesn't it seem crazy that you can make amends but not one amend.If
you have a bunch of odds and ends and get rid of all but one of them, what do
you call it?


If teachers taught, why didn't preachers praught?
If a vegetarian eats vegetables, what does a humanitarian eat?


Sometimes I think all the folks who grew up speaking English should be
committed to an asylum for the verbally insane.


In what other language do people recite at a play and play at a recital?
We ship by truck but send cargo by ship.
We have noses that run and feet that smell.
We park in a driveway and drive in a parkway.
And how can a slim chance and a fat chance be the same, while a wise
man and a wise guy are opposites?


You have to marvel at the unique lunacy of a language in which your
house can burn up as it burns
down, in which you fill in a form by filling it out,
and in which an alarm goes off by going on.


And, in closing, if Father is Pop, how come Mother's not Mop? :bored:

[langleybaston]

not to mention

drapers not drapists
grocers not grocists

but rapists not rapers.

And slow down and slow up mean the same thing.

No vunder ze German spies voss quickly rounded up in 1939 [or was it down?]

[langleybaston]

Beagle: do keep up!

I'm good is simply pages back!

Oh! and

Officers Mess

yes I am sure they do, but why advertise it?

[Danny42C]

Rigex, wonderful ! !

My hate-of-the-moment is 'incredibly', used as a general purpose superlative. Always tempts me to growl: "So you don't believe it, either ?" before hurling something heavy at the Box.

(Not really, as I'm not sure the Extended Warranty would cover it. "All Risks", perhaps ?)

D.

[Capetonian]

Misuse of any word is infuriating. The current one is 'literally' as in : "I literally died when I heard what she'd been doing ........."

[Pontius Navigator]

CM, in the land of the Grims it is common - I was, you was, he was.

Now it should follow as - we were, you were, they were.

However the plural pronouns also tend to take the singular 'was'.

[Pontius Navigator]

More confusion. May I? Can I?:

Of course you can fly at ultra low level but you may not unless authorised.

[Wensleydale]

And, in closing, if Father is Pop, how come Mother's not Mop?


Rather American....

Surely it should read... if Father is Dad, how come Mother's not Mad? (although our offspring may think that she is... not you, Dear).

[Capetonian]

Just booked a flight on British Airways | Book Worldwide Flights & Holidays (http://www.ba.com).

At the confirmation stage it says :

"We are finalising .............. and look forward to welcoming you onboard."

Shouldn't it be 'on board', as 'onboard' is an adjective? You'd think the world's favourite airline might get that right, or am I wrong?

[Toadstool]

Now we've done the annual 'my English is better than you're English', should we resurrect the 'I'm great at my job and fat verses I can't do my job because I'm fit' thread?

[Rigga]

I dont caire and I cant be bovverred

[Capetonian]

Now we've done the annual 'my English is better than you're English', should we resurrect the 'I'm great at my job and fat verses I can't do my job because I'm fit' thread?

Huh? I give up.

[Toadstool]

It didn't take long!! Way too subtle. Should I have put a smilie on it?

[Capetonian]

I do understand that the 'mistakes' I highlighted were deliberate, but I don't understand what 'I'm great at my job and fat verses I can't do my job because I'm fit' is meant to mean even if corrected.It might come to me in a blinding flash of light later!

[CoffmanStarter]

The English language is a wonderful thing and has changed much since William Shakespeare bashed out the odd sonnet and will continue to do so in the future ... so the next time someone displeases you I suggest we all revert to the age old insult of ...

"I bite my thumb at thee!" ... might confuse the Air Traffickers :E

[cynicalint]

An attempt by a language teacher at my South Wales school over xx?? years ago trying to explain verb declension.

He translated into local valley language, "It is not me" :-

Snommee
Snorrere
snorrhymn
Snorewe
Snorremm
Snorruss

and we worry about there, their or they're!