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Dak Man
5th Sep 2013, 13:05
Not sure what to make of this. :confused:

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/bills/cbill/2013-2014/0032/14032.pdf

Dash8driver1312
5th Sep 2013, 13:09
Part 2b i, ii, iii, v is actually commendable.

Alloa Akbar
5th Sep 2013, 13:17
Brilliant thinking.. Yet another attempt by HM Gov to solve society's ills by dumping responsibility for instilling work ethic and discipline in youths onto the Armed Forces.. Load of tosh. The job of the armed forces is hard enough without dumping a load of scrotes on them as well.

The reason the UK armed forces are among the best in the world is because they are there through their own free will and are paid professionals. As we used to say in the Navy "One volunteer is better than 10 pressed men"..

:ugh:

Dak Man
5th Sep 2013, 13:29
AA, I may have missed it but I didn't see any mention of military service but I agree that it's generally regarded as implicit in NS type scheme. However, Germany have a similar arrangement as detailed in the Bill.

PTT
5th Sep 2013, 13:42
Regulations shall also provide that the scheme shall include—
(a) a residential element, requiring that participants live away from home;
and
(b) an element of public service, comprising one or more of the following
to be chosen by the individual—
(i) charitable work,
(ii) social action,
(iii) care for the elderly or disabled,
(iv) overseas development activity, or
(v) work connected with the National Health Service, the
emergency services or the Armed Forces.
Looks like something from the start of the film Ides of March.

603DX
5th Sep 2013, 14:32
This is news to me, but how much chance has this Bill, which on a quick perusal has the appearance of being "a good thing", of being enacted, signed, sealed and brought into being?

Its wording carefully avoids reference to one sex only, so presumably it would be unisex and apply to women and men alike. I suspect it's a piece of kite-flying, with little or no likelihood of actually coming into force. A bit like that splendid scheme that Gordon Brown trumpeted loudly about during his tenure, to spread the CCF (Combined Cadet Force) organisation widely amongst the UK's secondary schools, not just the public and grammar schools. Not a lot came of that commendable aim, did it? :rolleyes:

Dash8driver1312
5th Sep 2013, 15:19
Oh, the CCF...or as we called them, Coconuts Can't Fly.

But seriously, always impressed to see one poster assume it must mean Armed Forces, when the scope seems broader. It works in Austria too, and it does not have to be carried out in soldier's uniform.

wings folded
5th Sep 2013, 15:46
Brilliant thinking.. Yet another attempt by HM Gov to solve society's ills by dumping responsibility for instilling work ethic and discipline in youths onto the Armed Forces..
Even a cursory read reveals that it is not a HM Gov bill, but rather a private member's bill. If you are a serving member of the Armed Forces, I hope you read your written commands with more care.

radeng
5th Sep 2013, 16:11
If they are going to be brought up to a reasonable standard of education, for many that will take up all the year, without doing anything else.

Lon More
5th Sep 2013, 16:13
If, big if, they wen into he Armed Forces it is very unlikely that they would be considered as front line troops. More likely in a support role where they couldn't do any damage.Back in WWII the Bevin Boys were also conscripted (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bevin_Boys).

Private Member's Bill so not a great chance of it getting passed unless the Government sees it as a backdoor method of lowering the unemployment statistics

mixture
5th Sep 2013, 16:14
One of the great things about the UK was the abolition of national service.

I can't think of anything worse than being sent off somewhere and used as some politician's cannon fodder for their latest pet project on the world stage.

I've every respect for people who choose to do it as a job. But that's how it should remain, a choice.

fitliker
5th Sep 2013, 16:15
Great idea, they should never done away with national service in the first place.

AA you must have been eating too much navy cake if you actually believe that :}

mixture
5th Sep 2013, 16:18
A quick Google suggests the UK might be doing this as another Pet Poodle project on behalf of our American cousins who've got their wheels in motion for something similar.....


Text of H.R. 748: Universal National Service Act (Introduced version) - GovTrack.us (http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/113/hr748/text)

Alloa Akbar
5th Sep 2013, 16:29
AA you must have been eating too much navy cake if you actually believe that http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/badteeth.gif I just know the problems we had with willing recruits.. well, recruits whose mum and dad packed them off to the forces to "Make men of them".. The thought of having to integrate someone on 12 months national service into a working environment (Even 2nd line) was scary. I can see why some might think its a good idea, but then if you had served in the Military you might have a different view.

If you are a serving member of the Armed Forces, I hope you read your written commands with more care. :ouch: Ouch.. No need for that, I merely picked up on one aspect, which lets face it, given defence cuts and the well publicised calls for expansion of the reserve forces.. doesn't take a genius to work out where the petitioner's (possibly well meaning) ideas would end up.

Fareastdriver
5th Sep 2013, 16:36
One of the biggest organisations in the Army during National Service was the Royal Army Education Corps. That was because general education in the UK was so poor. A very high proportion had to be taught to read and write proper like.

Dak Man
5th Sep 2013, 16:42
AA, I agree with you, thin end of a slippery sloped wedge....

wings folded
5th Sep 2013, 17:50
AA, I agree with you, thin end of a slippery sloped wedge....
No.
An inconsequential private members bill which will never see the light of day. Just a bloke from Kettering trying to ease his public profile upwards.

Churchills Ghost
5th Sep 2013, 20:41
Great idea, they should never have done away with national service in the first place.

Agreed.

Marching after breakfast from the Parade Ground to the Chapel with the Colour Sergeant two steps behind you and being told "you will sing so that God can hear you" is an experience no Briton should pass up! :E

radeng
5th Sep 2013, 21:31
Fareastdriver,

I can't help thinking it would be even worse today.........I seem to remember a figure of 15% of army NS men could not read or write to any acceptable degree - they couldn't understand most of the Daily Mirror.

500N
5th Sep 2013, 21:35
Isn't that why "The Sun" has pretty pictures :O

Especially on Page 3 !

G-CPTN
5th Sep 2013, 21:39
Consider also those for whom English is not their language (although having said that, my grandson has a 5-year-old schoolmate from Bulgaria who has been in England for just 12 months and is fully fluent in English).

radeng
5th Sep 2013, 21:46
500N

That was LONG before the Sun appeared on the newsstands!

Mechta
6th Sep 2013, 01:00
If the words 'or the armed forces' were removed from the bill, does anyone here still object to it, and if so, why?

Krystal n chips
6th Sep 2013, 05:05
" If the words 'or the armed forces' were removed from the bill, does anyone here still object to it, and if so, why?

Yes....me.

For a start, there will be a requirement for organisational control....and it would be highly unlikely to come from a Gov't dept, far more likely contracted out to the fabled private sector.

Which leads to funding.....Gov't subsidy ?.....possible to an extent, but otherwise private funding and that funding requires a return on the investment. Thus, users of the services offered will have to pay.

Then there's the nature of the services....nothing like a source of cheap labour to alleviate the costs of actually offering full time, paid employment ( even if you are paying for the services provided ) and you can be certain that, in the UK, this source would be exploited to get the maximum return for the minimum investment.

The participants would gain nothing in return.

The Bill is nothing more than a piece of self-promotion on the part of the sponsor designed purely to promote re-election.....since when did any politician in recent years think of anybody other than themselves ....

Armed Forces ?.....forget it !......you really do not want anybody who is forced into this environment to be there.

For those still nostalgic for Days of Empire, etc, ad vomit,, the world and UK society has changed, considerably, and the idea of National Service belongs in the history books.

I am fully aware that conscription is still used in some parts of the world, however, the UK military model has long since dispensed with the requirement.

Metro man
6th Sep 2013, 06:20
The armed forces must be dreading this, imagine having to turn a bunch of illiterate chavs, good for nothing but breeding like rabbits, taking drugs and drinking and having to turn them into useful members of society.

In the event of a war we'd be better of if they were on the other side.

sitigeltfel
6th Sep 2013, 06:30
In the event of a war we'd be better of if they were on the other side.

A fair number of young "British" men are undergoing military style training, and at their own expense. They travel to places like Pakistan, Somalia, Yemen to be taught the fundamentals of weapons and explosives handling, surveillance and tactics.
They then return to the UK, ready to spring into action, when they get the call from their leaders.

Alloa Akbar
6th Sep 2013, 08:35
Wings - No.
An inconsequential private members bill which will never see the light of day. Just a bloke from Kettering trying to ease his public profile upwards. Yes probably True.. Krystal elaborates a little further and for once I agree with him whole-heartedly :ok:

Lon More
6th Sep 2013, 12:08
It's one of two bills from Hollobone on today's order of business (http://www.parliament.uk/business/news/2013/september/commons-private-members-bill-6-september-2013/) If previous debates get heated it may never be discussed.

Blacksheep
6th Sep 2013, 13:33
"One volunteer is better than 10 pressed men"... . . but not quite as good as twenty.

In most RN ships in the '39 to '45 period, at least half the crew and probably more would have been "Hostilities Only" ratings. The RCN was famously crewed by the "Prairie Sailors", most of whom had never even seen the sea before they were drafted into the navy.

Then we come to the Infantry . . . ;)

Lon More
6th Sep 2013, 15:44
House of Commons tv feed (http://www.globalminingproducts.net/images/RADTorque12.jpg) shows about 4 members present for the debate and it did not receive a second reading being postponed until Friday 28 February 2014.