Pilots are poorer than taxi drivers.

[BayBong]

This is pathetic :

This just doesn't fly: Some airline pilots barely make living wage - NBC News.com (http://www.nbcnews.com/business/just-doesnt-fly-some-airline-pilots-barely-make-living-wage-8C11022539)

Even more shocking: " For the lowest paid pilot on Mesa Airlines, this imbalance works out to $8.50 an hour for a 60-hour work week."

Of course, this article does not discuss priviledges and benefits that a taxi driver would not have.

Now, the public can look at aviators with pity, and hopefully more empathy.

Let's get the people to the street to support pilots' salary !

[Crabbing]

" Let's get the people to the street to support pilots' salary ! " -

People like flying for free and won't pay a dime more for their travels just for pilots to earn better living, as long as planes land safely.

You have 2 options - go majors or go large bizjets as early as you can.

[FANS]

Become a taxi driver then!

[TeaTowel]

"It is sort of like a paid sport for people who love it,” Darby says.

As long as this attitude remains, Ts&Cs will forever spiral downward. We all love it but it is not a sport or a joyride.

[RAT 5]

I've wondered about this over the past few years.
Firstly, pilots have allowed a vocation to be abused and T's & c's have spiralled downwards, much to the amazement of my friends in other industries on similar salaries. They are aghast.
Secondly, there was a campaign started some years ago called 'fair trade'. It started with Coffee and graduated onto jeans and other clothing. It was highlighted that the farmers were being exploited by the monopolising buying strength of the processors. This plight was made known. The same happened with the sweat shops producing clothing with child labour. Again a campaign had some effect by alerting the public to these abuses. They too responded.
Are the public so stupid to think an airline can make profit selling stupidly cheap tickets? The airlines declare massive profits and no-one asks HOW? Someone and something has to be shaved to make it so. T's & C's have to be a good starting point. Let's have pilots who will pay to fly: let's not have a pay rise for 5 years while our profits go up: let's not employ anyone so we don't have to pay government insurances and pension contributions: let's have no pension fund for the pilots: let's have contractors who are paid on zero hour contracts with all costs for them: let's have the pilots pay for their own licences, uniforms and bi-annual sim checks including accommodation: let's pay new captains a lesser rate than older captains because they now have a new contract: let's transfer pilots to new bases where they don't want to be and on a lower rate contract: let's have pilots on SBY for no pay: let's have contractors who have to take 6 weeks annual holiday for no pay: let's let's.......

Does anyone think there should be 'fair trade' campaign for proper ticket prices so the pilots can have a proper wage? And don't get me started on the woes of the cabin crew. The public are turning a blind eye thinking that these thicket prices can be offered with the same T's & C's as the legacy carriers. I'm amazed that my friends still think the T's & C's of the LoCo's are similar to the majors. They think the low prices are simply due to employing less people, flying 1 type and into small cheap airports: economy of scale and efficient logistics. They have no idea of the lowly package paid to the flight crew and are shocked when they find out.
However, people will always buy the cheapest of luxuries until the wheels come off and then they'll go back to better brands. That time is a long way off unless there is a balance of power in the work place and vocations are no longer abused. The same is true for engineers. The whole team of dedicated aviation specialists are open to abuse.

[OutsideCAS]

Interesting report - curious - after taking the cost of a TR from annual salary, roughly what does a RYR cadet make in year one? anyone know?

[TeaTowel]

OutsideCAS the figure would probably have a minus in front of it.

[172_driver]

Interesting report - curious - after taking the cost of a TR from annual salary, roughly what does a RYR cadet make in year one? anyone know?

I would guess in the region of 35 000 Euro gross. New guys risk being heavily taxed depending on the country of residence. First few years some tax can be recovered by deducting the TR as an expense. RAT5 described pretty well the benefits of signing up.

[fireflybob]

Does anyone think there should be 'fair trade' campaign for proper ticket prices so the pilots can have a proper wage?

RAT, am with you all the way on this one and have also been thinking along these lines for some time - it's also why I personally will never buy a ticket with certain airlines.

How one would mount such a campaign I am not sure.

Become a taxi driver then!

FANS, or do both! I know more than one colleague who earned a fortune on his days off driving taxis.

[top9un]

However, people will always buy the cheapest of luxuries until the wheels come off and then they'll go back to better brands.

not sure the "better brands" will be queuing up for the EMA-BZG premium traffic!;)

[goaround737]

Aptly put, C195.

[RedhillPhil]

Taxi drivers, perhaps they do earn a good crust. Most of the ones in the station car park in Redhill seem to be driving Merc C and Es.

[VeroFlyer]

This is relative to what part of the world you work in, certainly not the case here in the Middle East!

[DHC-2 Eater]

Until you can get everyone thinking for the greater good of all then things won't change.

And there's the rub !

The view of the greater good of the inteligensia is that companies must pay more and more taxes for the greater good.

And so, when taxation in one state increases, the final price to the buying customer necessitates that cost cutting must be enacted elsewhere in order to remain competetive with a product that is provided elsewhere under different taxation as invariably happens to airlines.

Yes. I agree that pilot T&C's are heading to new lows, but demanding the customer pay more is not the only issue, the main issue is to STOP governments viewing aircraft operation as a defacto tax collector or a golden goose for tax revenues.

Governments across the world have for too long viewed airlines as a golden goose and they are chocking it to the point that the business itself and indeed its taxation source is migrating, with the result that they thus increase taxation to make up the shortfall, resulting in operators needing further overheads cuts to remain in a market with competition from overseas. And so T&C's ever decline.

But alas, the inteligensia demand companies pay more taxation as their moral duty, but what do they care, the net result is that they get cheap seats to their villas in Tuscany with their copy of the Grauniad tucked firmly under their arm.

We need to place pressure on government to reduce taxation on the industry and to support it, rather than drive it away. A prime example is the issue of ever increasing demand on airports, the demand is there because well it's demand, but in response the government fobs off supporting industry growth and so even more of it migrates.

[Trossie]

DHC2-Eater, absolutely SPOT ON!!!

The only point that I would vary is use of the word 'inteligensia' (correct spelling 'intelligentsia', sorry for the finickiness!). That implies that they are intelligent and that sector of society generally are not! 'Pseudo intelligentsia' might be a more apt term.

Trying to ham-string air travel right now is as philistine as the brainless idiots who were trying to ham-string rail travel a century-and-a-half ago. But then as you said, those will be the same brainless hypocrites who want their cheap air ticket to Tuscany. Just imagine the howls of hypocritical indignation if a Rail Passenger Duty at levels equivalent to APD was levied on rail tickets!

And the more money is stolen from the hard working companies and their customers in taxes, the less money that there is to put into building up the wealth of all involved and eventually the less money that there is left to be able to go on stealing in taxes (and hence suffocating that goose that lays those golden eggs). But, hey!, the greater good dictates that politicians and benefit claimants have a right to a living that supersedes that of real working people who help to create wealth!

[Ivan aromer]

And then of course there is MO'L.

[Artie Fufkin]

Does anyone think there should be 'fair trade' campaign for proper ticket prices so the pilots can have a proper wage?


And not even a hint of irony!

Forget all those third world farmers struggling to make a living wage, lets mount a "fair trade" campaign to ensure we all get a six digit salary. Yes, I can see all the wooly jumper liberals queuing up for that one :ugh:

[I-AINC]

AFTER THE BIG SUCCESS IN RECRUITING & HIRING THE SECOND BATCH OF CAPTAINS & FIRST OFFICERS, WE ARE DELIGHTED TO ANNOUNCE THE COMMENCMENT OF HIRING THE THIRD BATCH OF PILOTS.
WE ARE SEEKING B737-500 EFIS FIRST OFFICER FOR ONE OF OUR REPUTABLE EXISTANT AIRLINES IN THE MIDDLE EAST .
MINIMUM REQUIREMENTS AS FOLLOWS :
2-MIN. OF 1000 ON B737-500.
3-CURRENT ON TYPE.
4-ICAO FROZEN ATPL
5-LAST FLIGHT WITHIN THE LAST 12 MONTHS

CONTRACT TERM : 1 YEAR RENEWABLE
STARTING DATE : IMMEDIATELY

SALARY : 2500$ + TRANSPORTATION TO\FROM AIRPORT, TICKETS (REGIONAL) AT THE BEGINING & END OF CONTRACTS PROVIDED BY OPERATOR.
ALLOWANCE : ABOVE 80 HOURS PER MONTH, AN ALLOWANCE OF 30$ PER HOUR.
TICKETS ON AIRLINES NETWORK ARE FREE
REMARK: ONLY CANDIDATES ACCEPTING THE ABOVE SALARIES SHOULD SEND THEIR CVs AS WE ARE RECEIVING A HIGH VOLUME OF RESUMES.

NOTE: PLEASE SEND YOUR RESUME IN "WORD" FORMAT & WRITE IN THE SUBJECT " ACCEPTING SALARY "

PLEASE SEND YOUR RESUME ALONG WITH PASSPORT COPY , COPY OF LICENSE & MEDICAL, LAST 6 PAGES OF LOG BOOK.


Yes of course.... A lot of application to go in Libya.....yes of course....

[DHC-2 Eater]

WE ARE SEEKING B737-500 EFIS FIRST OFFICER FOR ONE OF OUR REPUTABLE EXISTANT AIRLINES IN THE MIDDLE EAST .
MINIMUM REQUIREMENTS AS FOLLOWS :
2-MIN. OF 1000 ON B737-500.
3-CURRENT ON TYPE.
4-ICAO FROZEN ATPL
5-LAST FLIGHT WITHIN THE LAST 12 MONTHS

CONTRACT TERM : 1 YEAR RENEWABLE
STARTING DATE : IMMEDIATELY

SALARY : 2500$ + TRANSPORTATION TO\FROM AIRPORT, TICKETS (REGIONAL) AT THE BEGINING & END OF CONTRACTS PROVIDED BY OPERATOR.



And there it is !

2500 USD (per month presumably) equates to 375 GBP per week. about 19,500 GBP per annum.. about what a supermarket cashier can earn. and that doesnt require having to support a crash pad in anothe country while considering a family back home, or the time separated from family, pay down the cost of gaining a ticket etc etc etc..

An as aside, "ONE OF OUR REPUTABLE EXISTANT AIRLINES" do they have non-existant airlines too ? wonder what the pay is like there !

[Private jet]

Pilots have always been the "type" to stab each other in the back. The "brotherhood" of aviators is quite frankly fake. Its a bizarre contradictory cultural mix of macho "i'm the big i am" with the procedural, rule driven "i'll do what i'm told" culture. Even in the likes of BA the bonding is borne out of little more than common interest and no more. Small operations provide the best unity.

[somethingclever]

The roller coaster keeps going down. What might make it swing up is young dreamer's realization that the job isn't worth it anymore. Degraded conditions, more hours at work and decreasing applications to flight schools. Plot those three graphs on a piece of paper and see where we are headed. The flow of eager young'uns disappears and a shortage starts to build. It's just a slow cycle and we're still well on the downward pointing part of the curve.

As for the public, forget about it. People go out of their way to save 2€ on a t-shirt even if it was made by a 12-year old in asia. People who have been in the industry a while can see what it used to be like, what we have right now and the trend but trust me, the compensation for pilots is still way more than will cause average Joe to react. Especially in these times when most people are struggling and simply having a job to go to makes you middle class.

Personally, I think many of us with another 25-30 years left in this industry won't suffer the required destruction in order to stem the flow, cause a shortage and put us in a position to take back what we have lost. You will lose your fixed job for a contract, your pension is bye bye, you will work longer hours and you will do it for less money. Many people I talk to are somewhere between disinterested and fed up 3-5 years into commercial flying. Same thing every day, boring, no challenge, never home, always tired, spouse bitching and complaining, never see the kids. Take that attitude and mix it up with a reduction in all the good stuff that keeps you getting up at 3.45 and I see a few people handing in their notices. I'm working on my exit plan, hopefully in 10 years flying for me will be optional.

All that I can say with certainty is that it will get much worse before it gets better and we are all out of friends to help us.

[A-3TWENTY]

It will not take too long until pilots become cheaper then flight attendants.