Harrier/Hawker Siddeley factory

[SpringHeeledJack]

I took the chance to visit the Brooklands museum a few days ago and whilst hanging around the Wellington Hangar overheard someone say that the Harriers that were built at Hawker Siddeley's factory in Kingston were flown out to elsewhere once completed. It jogged something in my memory and remember at least one flying either in or out of the factory. Can anyone remember if this did happen and if so where did they go onto ?



SHJ

[treadigraph]

I thought they went by road to Dunsfold for final assembly and test flying...

[Dave Gittins]

Many, many years ago (late 60s) remember seeing one parked on the grass just next to the factory

[Allan Lupton]

Treadigraph is right so far as I know.

I remember suggesting to Robin Balmer (Aerodynamicist who later was type designer of one of the Harriers) that only a company whose main factory was without an airfield would design an aeroplane that didn't need one! I was told they had once run an engine up in the carpark and the local populace reacted in rather a hostile manner.
Even the use of St Pancras coal yard for the Paris Air Race stirred the public up a bit.

John Farley can probably tell more.

[SpringHeeledJack]

Even the use of St Pancras coal yard for the Paris Air Race stirred the public up a bit.

It must've stirred up an awful lot of coal dust and redistributed it onto many a drying clothes line in the neighbourhood!

As to the aircraft going from Kingston, I'd have concurred with the trucking them out to Dunsfold, as there was a factory/assembly line there if I recollect ?



SHJ

[spekesoftly]

Even the use of St Pancras coal yard for the Paris Air Race stirred the public up a bit.It was for the 1969 Daily Mail Trans-Atlantic Air Race (London / New York).

[gayford]

I think they flew some out of Kingston in conjunction with the Falkland war build-up.

[SpringHeeledJack]

That is most likely the answer as it would tally with the time frame that was in the recesses of my memory banks.



SHJ

[chevvron]

John Farley once told me that for a production 'first flight' they would load full fuel and do a vertical takeoff, hence they wouldn't (theoretically) need an airfield!

[longer ron]

VTO's were not normally done with heavy fuel loads,a more normal sortie would be STO for take off and then do a VL or sometimes an RVL on return to the circuit.
Although some early Harriers may have been built entirely at Kingston and then roaded to Dunsfold for final assembly - by the time I worked at Dunsfold the (metal) Harrier wings were being built at Brough (possibly tailplane as well ? ).The fuselages being built at Kingston.

[Fenders]

I seem to recall many years ago seeing the occasional Harrier making ILS approaches to Gatwick then going around before returning to Dunsfold as part of their final per delivery checks.

[RedhillPhil]

Treadigraph is right so far as I know.

I remember suggesting to Robin Balmer (Aerodynamicist who later was type designer of one of the Harriers) that only a company whose main factory was without an airfield would design an aeroplane that didn't need one! I was told they had once run an engine up in the carpark and the local populace reacted in rather a hostile manner.
Even the use of St Pancras coal yard for the Paris Air Race stirred the public up a bit.

John Farley can probably tell more.

http://www.tangmere-museum.org.uk/wp-content/themes/tangmere/thumb.php?w=450&h=337&src=http://www.tangmere-museum.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/XV744_St-Panc_Web.jpg

[SpringHeeledJack]

That's the start of the London to New York 'race' isn't it ? I heard a radio programme a few years back and they were saying that that the RAF had done a practice run the week before, to make sure that it was possible without embarrassing hiccups.



SHJ

[Allan Lupton]

Quote
That's the start of the London to New York 'race' isn't it ?

Yes, my earlier post relied on rusty memory and I'd forgotten the New York "race" as nobody I knew was involved, unlike the earlier Paris job when one of my deH apprentice contemporaries went from Marble Arch to the aerodrome in a home-made car, was flown to Paris in a home-made aeroplane (Turbi G-AOTK) and another home-made car took him to the Arc de Triomphe.

[chevvron]

RAF St Pancras to a downtown Manhattan heliport (17th St?); bet the yanks were green with envy they hadn't got a fast jet that could land in Manhattan.
As an aside, (thread creep) the FAA used Phantoms operating to/from Wisley for the race and I'm told that in the absence of arrestor gear at Wisley they would slam it down so hard they invariably burst a tyre or two.

[howiehowie93]

The Royal Air Force (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Air_Force) decided to use the unique Vertical Take Off and Landing capability of the Hawker Siddeley Harrier (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawker_Siddeley_Harrier).[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daily_Mail_Trans-Atlantic_Air_Race#cite_note-raf-1) The Harrier used a coal yard next to St Pancras station (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Pancras_railway_station) in London and landed on the quayside of the Bristol Basin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delaware_River) in New York:D


Daily Mail Trans-Atlantic Air Race - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daily_Mail_Trans-Atlantic_Air_Race)

[longer ron]

re the 1st Phantom tyre bursts at Wisley...

The arrival at Wisley was spectacular, as Doug unintentionally burst both tyres during the landing run trying to stop quickly.

Good write up here about the 3 x Phantom flights - originally by a member of the Navy team...



https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&ved=0CDYQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Feducationforum.ipbhost.com%2Findex.php%3Fsh owtopic%3D14321&ei=eq8qUvXyK4yRhQeD4IGACA&usg=AFQjCNG2qnDEIpr4eCVKgH23HLH59Skzbw&sig2=95OxzGvqys_QBfqdT7dw1w

[SincoTC]

the FAA used Phantoms operating to/from Wisley for the race and I'm told that in the absence of arrestor gear at Wisley they would slam it down so hard they invariably burst a tyre or two.

Some years ago, I recall seeing a nice little diorama in the FAA Museum at Yeovilton showing a model Phantom with two flat tyres, sitting slightly askew on a section of runway at the the end of a pair of long skid marks. Next to this, in a showcase on the floor were the actual tyres with the huge (right through) flat spots for all to see. I wonder if it's still there? I must go again soon as it's well worth a visit!

Naval Aviation Museum, Royal Navy Helicopters, Aircraft, South West (http://www.fleetairarm.com/)

:ok:

[Phileas Fogg]

The Royal Air Force decided to use the unique Vertical Take Off and Landing capability of the Hawker Siddeley Harrier.[1] The Harrier used a coal yard next to St Pancras station in London and landed on the quayside of the Bristol Basin in New York

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTnEk2oq-bqRClq9LPJPq37ti6nLtLijRWpgrVljx0I0fqFu29x

[longer ron]

Some nice footage here of the St Pancras take off (AAR a few minutes later ;)) and interview with Lecky Thompson :)!
Starts at about 2.20

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ToDQuNpOPnQ

[SpringHeeledJack]

Nice nostalgic video find mr ron! All those spectators around St Pancras got a good showering of coal dust , I'll bet there were a few people coughing up black mucus after the event. :yuk:



SHJ

[WHBM]

RAF St Pancras to a downtown Manhattan heliport (17th St?); bet the yanks were green with envy they hadn't got a fast jet that could land in Manhattan.
As I recall it, the US military were completely on side in assisting the UK in handling these flights at the New York end. USAF handled the RAF Harriers and US Navy handled the Royal Navy Phantoms. I recall as a kid TV footage showing Hot Refuelling in progress by a USAF ground team, that is having engines running and full tanks, refuelling hoses in and held by ground personnel, topping up tanks to 100% as it burned, waiting for the race participant to arrive on a motor bike. Mr WHBM Senior :ok: was appalled !

Meanwhile, on the original topic of aircraft factories without runways, there have been plenty of these over time. Avro Chadderton in Manchester was another.

[Allan Lupton]

Quote
Meanwhile, on the original topic of aircraft factories without runways, there have been plenty of these over time. Avro Chadderton in Manchester was another.

Ah, but what you perhaps don't know is that what we in later years knew as the allotments and carparks across Greengate from the factory was designated to be an aerodrome during the Great War long before Avro had any presence there

I can't turn up any references but in the mid '70s the late John Bagley, then of RAE but later of the Science Museum, showed me the site of a factory near Oldham, built in 1918 for making HP 0/400s, and we then went to the aerodrome site (as above) and there was HS Chadderton just across the road.

[chevvron]

Wasn't there another 'factory without an airfield' just south of Lincoln?

[longer ron]

If you mean Bracebridge Heath...it was an airfield and manufacturing facility during WW1 and the Hangars remained after airfield closure - used as a repair centre by Avro etc

Bracebridge Heath (http://www.airfieldinformationexchange.org/community/showthread.php?7575-Bracebridge-Heath)

[longer ron]

I recall as a kid TV footage showing Hot Refuelling in progress by a USAF ground team, that is having engines running and full tanks, refuelling hoses in and held by ground personnel, topping up tanks to 100% as it burned, waiting for the race participant to arrive on a motor bike. Mr WHBM Senior was appalled !



Hot refuel on a toom?sounds like a doddle :)

Now a Hot refuel on an all metal Harrier...that was 'interesting' - the refuel panel was between the Hot and Cold Nozzles :)

Easier on a plastic pig harrier because the refuel panel was forward of the Cold Nozzle !

[Ian1965]

Hi, I started my apprenticeship at Kingston in 1965, good memories. The P1154 as I remember was just being laid down for the six pre production runs prior to the harrier. Other comments seem to coincide with my memory as all of the aircraft during my time at Kingston were indeed taken by artic to Dunsfold (much to the aggravation in Guildford high street). I never saw any aircraft fly out of Kingston, not sure it would have been possible although I stand to be corrected. The heathrow flight path would have been a problem and from memory the only place remotely possible would have been the sports club ground. There were also Hunters and the red Arrow Gnats on site at various times as I remember. These were transported in by lorry with wings off. Good time and learned a lot to take forward in life.

[Ian1965]

Memory kicked in overnight, mentioned 1154 in previous post should have been P1127. Ian.

[John Farley]

Chaps

Interesting thread – facts, memories and myths.

No Harriers ever flew from or into the Kingston site.

Harrier I fuselages were built at Kingston. Wings at Brough. Not sure about tailplanes - I think they may have moved between Kingston, Brough and later Salmesbury to balance work loads. All final assembly and flight test was at Dunsfold from components supplied by road.

The whole of every Harrier I was built in the UK. With the Harrier II Macair built the nose and wing and the UK did the rest. Neither country ever had the capability to build a whole Harrier II. Both countries had the ability to carry out final assembly and flight test.

Once they closed Kingston the manufacturing of the Harrier II fuselages was moved to Dunsfold.

Production first flight normally started with a conventional take-off and ended with a conventional landing. (we had to do one of each or some customer smart arse was bound to say how did we know there were no related problems).

All production test flights were flown clean until the Sea Harrier where the inboard pylons were not removable (need for nuclear weapon wiring to be continuous from cockpit to store)

Hot refuelling on the Harrier I was done a few times with the nozzles down while fiddling with the hose. The USMC (who were very keen to use hot refuelling) routinely did it via the flight refuelling probe.

All the engines were built and initially serviced and repaired at Bristol. Later NAVAIR at Patuxent Rriver established a service and repair facility for USMC engines and the RAF an engine bay at Wittering

Once we had the later Peg 11 engines I used to like to VTO on a delivery flight to Germany just because one could.

We did the odd demo inside the London TMA. No problem as we had radios.

If I have missed out on any aspect of this thread please let me know.