RAF Vs Turkish Air Force?

[Postman Plod]

BREAKING: British Typhoons in near clash with Turkish jets over Cyprus (http://famagusta-gazette.com/breaking-british-typhoons-in-near-clash-with-turkish-jets-over-cyprus-p20439-69.htm#.UiYR5i5zZcc.facebook)

This strikes me as an odd occurrence... It seems that the RAF scrambled from Akrotiri to intercept unknown aircraft over Turkish-Cypriot airspace, however the Turkish Air Force then scrambled from Incirlik to intercept the RAF Typhoons...

Given they are NATO partners, and given the RAF regularly fly over and around Cyprus, what went "wrong" here? Do the RAF generally completely avoid northern Cyprus? Would we normally contact the Turkish before entering the Turkish sector?

[Lonewolf_50]

Have you ever been in a NATO exercise in the Eastern Mediterranean?

Stupid crap like this has happened before.

[500N]

Question for those who have operated around there before

"A a squadron of F-16 fighter jets have been based at at Turkish airstrip in northern Cyprus since 2011, however it is understood the Turkish jets took off from Incirlik air base in Turkey, in order to intercept the British planes. "


Would that mean that the F-16's on Cyprus are not set up for QRA type response,
hence they were sent from Incirlik ?

[Pontius Navigator]

500N, may be they rotate QRA? May be it depends in where the Tiffys were at the time.

Would you want to scramble underneath a couple of bogies? Better to come from afar and get some height and speed first?

Once on an exercise we had the privilege of 'bombing' a Danish airfield. Great fun overflying an RDAF Hunter trying to get airborne as we went down the centreline doors open :)

[500N]

PN

Thank you. Just what I was after. I can see very good reasons indeed.
(I think like a Soldier, not a pilot !!!).

[Melchett01]

"A a squadron of F-16 fighter jets have been based at at Turkish airstrip in northern Cyprus since 2011, however it is understood the Turkish jets took off from Incirlik air base in Turkey, in order to intercept the British planes. "


I might be splitting hairs, it might be inaccurate reporting or things might have changed, but last time I was at Incirlik it was home to Turkish AAR not F-16s. The F-16s are a bit further over to the east at Diyarbikir or west at Konya.

So unless there has been some shuffling around or assets have been repositioned, it could be more like F-16s forward deployed and AAR launched in support of QRA from Northern Cyprus if anything did indeed come out of Incirlik.

But tied into PN's point aside, if they had launched from the north of the island, I doubt you would put a tanker up into a potentially high threat environment as a HVT and in any case I doubt it would be required given the short range. So potentially the F-16s could have launched from the mainland with AAR support. Just a late evening thought over a snifter, could be wrong.

[cokecan]

hang on, i don't get this.

the Typhoons went after something, and in response the Turkish F-16's went after the Typhoons.

so what was the 'something' the Typhoons went after to begin with?

[Uncle Ginsters]

I might be splitting hairs, it might be inaccurate reporting or things might have changed, but last time I was at Incirlik it was home to Turkish AAR not F-16s. The F-16s are a bit further over to the east at Diyarbikir or west at Konya.

Things have indeed changed, Melchett. The Incirlik F16 'Q' have been pretty active for a while now.

[Roger the cabin boy]

Question is though, who'd win the engagement? Just wondered? A flight of Tiffys in full DCA mode vs Turkish F-16?

[Melchett01]

Ahhh every day's a school day eh! Thanks for the update UG, as I alluded, it's been a while since I last spent any time at Incirlik. Which was scene of some of the most surreal situations with the Turkish crews as they flew iso ops to bomb the places we were flying to protect! Surreal, but a very interesting place with some good memories.

[taxydual]

And a telephone call between NATO allies? Does that not exist anymore?

[rudirock]

they say happend something like that but i live in kyrenia north cyprus i have not seen any jets around here also our news didnt show anything about it just one of the greek newspaper wrote it online

[hanoijane]

Question is though, who'd win the engagement?

Interesting question. Speculating is such fun, and quite harmless...

Being a third party observer, and without any of the products of United Aircraft Corporation being involved (for whom I'd obviously be cheering), one would imagine Mr Typhoon would be holding all the aces.

However, as the fight would have been taken place in their own back yard and the Turks can be aggressive and somewhat unpredictable little fellows, I'd think we'd have seen two F16's and one Typhoon fluttering down towards the Med.

So, a Typhoon victory. Of sorts.

[Ronald Reagan]

I think the Turkish air force is possibly the second biggest in NATO after the USAF. Its amazing how many F-16s and F-4s they have. I am sure its something like a 400 to 500 jet air force. They have F-5s also. Shame its that muppet Erdogan in charge though! Scary to think of him controlling such a force.

[Easy Street]

Given they are NATO partners
NATO partners can operate in their own national interests and retain the right to launch "national" missions without any recourse to NATO procedures or C2. One suspects that this was just such a case.

[ShotOne]

Typhoon victory? What sort of "victory" has allies knocking lumps off each other. Surely there's some diplomatic protocol for such a situation. Is it really so hard for someone to pick up a phone??

[newt]

I think the point of this might be.........RAF sends six Typhoons to Cyprus!!!

IS that all we can muster these days?:eek:

[Arclite01]

Ronald Reagan

Not to mention the size of the Greek (Hellenic) Air Force.

Beats me how these countries maintain such large arsenals of aircraft............ while we reduce ours to the bare bones. We really have got the Government we deserve haven't we.

Oh hang on, both counties are virtually bankrupt...................

For me - The real question is how many are serviceable if they needed them.

Probably about 6 - ergo the number of Typhoons we have sent...............

Arc:rolleyes:

[Ronald Reagan]

Arclite01, agree with you totally about the Greek air force. No idea how the recent economic issues have hurt their air force but it cannot have been good.
As for the Turkish air force they have always struck me as one of those that can generate a huge number of sorties with wave after wave of aircraft, that goes for the F-16s, F-4s and F-5s. It really amazes me. There is no European air force like that anymore. I think the French were like that until maybe 2004/2005 sort of time, now they are disintegrating to be like the other European air forces, they were the last of the big western European air forces.
Most air forces in Europe now have small fleets of aircraft and the vast majority of those are broken most of the time.

[whowhenwhy]

The original ac that the Tiffys were sent to investigate may also have been TUAF given that the Turks have been known to put some of their fast-air south of the border, non-squawking, albeit feet-wet.

Notwithstanding comments about NATO allies etc and even considering that the Block 40 mod gave them Sparrow and AMRAAM, I'd have thought that we'd be a little annoyed over a prospective 2 for 1 ratio.

[ShotOne]

While I appreciate we enjoy playing top trumps with aircraft capabilities, surely what we should be discussing is how on earth we come to a situation where we are discussing shooting down (or being shot down by) aircraft belonging to our main regional ally?

[Lonewolf_50]

Shot one

Don't feel to bad. Back in 1987, over the blue waters of the Med, a USN F-14 9from USS Saratoge) shot down a USAF F-4, during an exercise.
I had thought we were allies, at the time ... :E

In 1992, the USS Saratoga fired off a NATO Sea Sparrow (IIRC, in surface to surface mode) at ... a Turkish frigate, killing 5. As above, I had thought we were allies! :eek:
EDIT: TCG Muavenet (Destroyer Minelayer?)

I think that the fact that "weapons tight" remained in place in this incident is a good thing. Possible indication of progress, eh? :ok:

[whowhenwhy]

Shall I jump in now and mention the RAFG Phantom - Jaguar blue on blue?

I wondered whether the F16s were what our guys had been scrambled to intercept TBH, given what I mentioned about previous TUAF sorties. It wouldn't surprise me if the Turks wanted to assess our capabilities over there.

[con-pilot]

Don't feel to bad. Back in 1987, over the blue waters of the Med, a USN F-14 9from USS Saratoge) shot down a USAF F-4, during an exercise.

Would the pilot of the F-14 be the same guy that was flagged for Admiral, but when the fact that he had deliberately shot down a USAF F-4, his promotion was canceled?

[Pontius Navigator]

We were once intercepted over France, 2xMirage on one wing, 2xCF104 on the other. We had filed a CA48 and had a proper DipClear but in those days we refused to disclose aircraft type.

We came clean when they read the aircraft type and tail number over the radio. Fair cop.

[ShotOne]

Well, yes, lonewolf although arguably the diplomatic incompetence is more serious than those finger-trouble instances, even though this time nobody got killed. The same could also be said of yesterday's US/Israeli missile test. Had anyone else done this without notification it would have been regarded as highly provocative and reckless.

[chopper2004]

Whowhenwhy, I heard that story from one of the engineering lab techs at Uni when I was in the final year because he knew said Jag pilot. As I was told the Flt (?) in a previous life before change of career and getting commissioned, worked as an apprentice under the lab tech. Didn't it start off with flying at treetop level followed by a bit of ACN, early evening / late afternoon.

[Union Jack]

Stupid crap like this has happened before.

Such as during the Turkish Invasion of Cyprus in July 1974, when the Turkish Air Force mistook the Turkish destroyer KOCATEPE for a Greek ship and sank her, as well as damaging two other Turkish destroyers.

Jack

[500N]

Union Jack

Sorry, sinking your own invasion force :D:D:D

That has to be one of the better one's around.

[Union Jack]

Yes indeed, 500N, and I should have added that I understand that the Turks initially tried to claim that a Royal Navy submarine was responsible for the sinking, which was really rather hard since it was the Royal Navy and Royal Fleet Auxiliary which rescued some of the survivors.

Indeed, I also seem to recall that the subsequent transfer of the survivors to another Turkish warship, which was done by helicopter, resulted in a major award for the pilot.

Jack

[500N]

Union Jack

Because of your post, I decided to go and read up on the Invasion
as it is not something I have read much on. Interesting events to say
the least.

[Union Jack]

In view of your interest 500N, here's some more detailed information, courtesy of HMS ANDROMEDA's webpage covering 1974 - 1976 (http://www.hms-andromeda.co.uk/index.php/ship-history/1974-1976) :

"In 1974 Andromeda, together with other Royal Navy vessels including her sister ship Argonaut, helped evacuate British civilians from the Mediterranean island of Cyprus after the invasion by Turkey. Andromeda evacuated 293 of these civilians. During this conflict the Turkish Air Force mistakenly attacked and sank the Turkish Destroyer "Kocatepe" off Akrotiri. Andromeda came to the assistance of the destroyer and the helicopter, piloted by Lieutenant Iain McKechnie, rescued 72 Turkish sailors. Flying at night and in stormy conditions Lieutenant McKechnie flew constantly for over four hours and made 55 deck landings to transport the sailors to the safety of Andromeda. For this act of bravery Lieutenant McKechnie was awarded the Turkish Distinguished Service Medal by the Turkish Government, which he was allowed to wear, with permission granted by Her Majesty the Queen."

The then Commanding Officer, Captain (later Vice Admiral Sir) Bob Gerken also distinguished himself at the time of the Turkish invasion, as described in my post # 56 at http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/420713-cyprus-style-meze-3.html. The link quoted therein sadly leads to the obituary for Captain Ian McKechnie | Herald Scotland (http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/spl/aberdeen/captain-ian-mckechnie-1.119353) following his death at a very young age, and reveals that, having joined the Caterpillar Club whilst a Sea Vixen pilot before transferring to helicopters, he also won a QCVSA for the KOCATEPE rescue, as well as being awarded the OBE in a later appointment, and (on a lighter note regarding the airlift of the KOCATEPE survivors from the Turkish warship BERK ...:uhoh:), "As she was a new vessel with no lighting on her flight deck, he instructed Turkish sailors to stand in a square, holding aloft RN-issue torches to create an illuminated horizon for landing. He later recalled: 'Different-sized, tiring Turks do not make for a very good horizon bar after two hours' .":)

Quite a guy when all's said and done, and all very well worth a read.:ok::ok:

Jack

[500N]

Union Jack

Thanks for taking the time to do that. Some very interesting reading indeed.

I have read most of it, will keep reading later.

Thanks again :ok:

[ARXW]

Arclite
Not to mention the size of the Greek (Hellenic) Air Force.
Beats me how these countries maintain such large arsenals of aircraft............ while we reduce ours to the bare bones. We really have got the Government we deserve haven't we.

Oh hang on, both counties are virtually bankrupt...................

right about Greece (i should know i am Greek!), wrong about Turkey i suppose: far higher rate of growth and a 36% DEBT/GDP ratio compared to 90%+ for the UK
For me - The real question is how many are serviceable if they needed them.
Probably about 6 - ergo the number of Typhoons we have sent...............
Arc

you'd be surprised here again. Serviceability even for the Hellenic (Greek) Air Force even at this dark hour would probably produce more available jets than the current RAF's fighter and attack ORBAT (a quick check suggests 700-800 aircraft of all kinds for the RAF to 500+ for the Greek AF yet only 210+ Typhoons+Tornadoes vs 280 Greek F-16s, M2000s, F-4s and A-7s).

[November4]

According to a well known paper (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2415394/British-jets-Cyprus-scrambled-chase-Syrian-planes-crossed-international-airspace.html)

British jets in Cyprus scrambled to chase after Syrian planes that crossed into international airspace

RAF fighters sent to intercept Syrian planes in Cypriot airspace
The unidentified planes left after the launch
Two Turkish F-16s also flew to support the British Typhoons

[NutLoose]

Shall I jump in now and mention the RAFG Phantom - Jaguar blue on blue?


I was always amazed he could get behind the Jag, it's got to be a bit of skilful manoeuvring right on the Phantoms stall point.

[ShotOne]

The paper quoted senior air forces sources as it being two Syrian Mig 29s but stressed they DIDN'T enter Cypriot airspace and hence weren't intercepted. Interesting this should come out a week after the event. I don't regard the Star as the font of all knowledge but would one of their journos just make this up when they probably don't know a mig from a moulinex. Why would Assad want to rattle our cage when weve safely voted ourselves out of the picture and are official releases more speculative than this rumour network?

[whowhenwhy]

Chopper, I'd only end up googling it myself to make sure that I got the story correct. A quick scan of the interweb and you should find everything that you're after with the Jag/F4 story.

I'm sure that you'll find many more droll one-liners mentioning Jags and the curvature of the earth etc, though I'll admit that NutLoose's comment provides a new and original spin on an old theme. ;)

Had thought that Assad's 29s were operating in a GR type role, with the 21s and 23s playing at AD... Why would he want to rattle our cage? Because he can? It's always interesting to know what the other side are doing...:suspect:

[Willard Whyte]

Now the aircrew feeder has closed there is nothing left to defend at Akrotiri.