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Churchills Ghost
3rd Sep 2013, 17:56
Captain Robert Campbell, aged 29, was captured just weeks after Britain declared war on Germany in July, 1914.

But after two years in Magdeburg Prisoner of War Camp the British officer received word from home his mother Louise Campbell was close to death.
He speculatively wrote to Kaiser Wilhelm II begging to be allowed home to visit his mother one final time.

Incredibly the German leader granted the request allowing the professional office two weeks leave - as long as he returned.
The only bond he placed on the leave was Capt Campbell's Ďword' as an army officer.

He returned to his family home in Gravesend Kent in December 1916 and spent a week with his cancer-stricken mother.
He then kept his promise by returning to his German prison - where he stayed until the war ended in 1918.

Lambast the East Surrey Regiment Captain all you like for not staying home when he had the chance but, here we see a classic example of a gentleman who valued the keeping of his word.

Do our teachers still encourage such honour and courage to those being taught in our schools and universities today?

WWI soldier keeps his word (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2410059/WW1-soldier-released-German-prison-camp-dying-mother-Kaiser-promise-returned-cell--did.html)

thing
3rd Sep 2013, 19:10
I want to know how he got from a German prisoner of war camp to Blighty and then back again without the authorities knowing,

Doubt very much the army would have let him back. Something not quite right here methinks.

NutLoose
3rd Sep 2013, 19:21
I wonder how he got across the lines both ways, unless he went via a neutral country.

5645andym
3rd Sep 2013, 19:38
I seem to recall hearing that during the Napoleonic Wars, if an officer had given his word not to escape and was granted parole as a result, if he later did escape the Army would send him straight back to the French . . .

thing
3rd Sep 2013, 19:41
Yeah but they were barking mad in the early 19C.

airborne_artist
3rd Sep 2013, 19:49
Sweden was neutral, so he may have gone there by train and then taken a ship to Britain, perhaps.

hanoijane
3rd Sep 2013, 19:54
You seem to yearn for days long gone and standards long lost.

To paraphrase the Gyokuon-hoso;

'...life has developed not necessarily to your advantage, while the general trends of the world have all turned against you...'

Adapt and survive, like the Japanese.

thing
3rd Sep 2013, 20:01
Sweden was neutral, so he may have gone there by train

Bloody long train journey then...:)

lj101
3rd Sep 2013, 20:04
Via Holland to England - the Germans requested a similar return favour in Oct 1917 for a German POW held in the Isle of Man but the British said no.

For Goudie;

On his return to the German POW camp he was released from his bond of trust -he set about trying to escape which he achieved the following year. He was captured on the Dutch border and remained in Germany for the rest of the war.

Union Jack
3rd Sep 2013, 20:17
Failure to RTFM, or rather the link in this case, strikes again ......:ugh:

It looks as if Captain Campbell displayed not just honour for returning, but also a large helping of courage and initiative from what I can see, not least observing his subsequent attempt to escape, coupled with his rejoining his regiment for WWII and then the ROC.:ok:

Jack

Churchills Ghost
3rd Sep 2013, 20:22
You seem to yearn for days long gone and standards long lost.

All I can say is that appearances can be deceiving, for I yearn not for that which cannot be recovered and recognise that while there are many notable lessons to be gained from history, there are also important advancements which have been developed in our time (this is always the case) and which have become essential to the way we presently live.

Moreover, I believe that virtue finds relevance in every generation for its qualities are enduring and its effects well tested in the battlefield of human interaction.

It just so happens however, that there are many convenient examples of virtue among the generation which precedes ours!

hanoijane
3rd Sep 2013, 20:25
You write nicely.

I stand corrected.

Pontius Navigator
3rd Sep 2013, 20:25
One forgets that parole has had a long and honourable history. The Napoleonic war was mentioned but parole also applied in WW2.

British POW were permitted parole to go in to town to visit dentist, doctors and whatever. These parole excursions were a good opportunity to map out the ground and environs of the prison. Provided parole was relinquished.

I believe Pat Reid mentioned such parole from Colditz and similarly Sgt Maj Coward too.

Parole of a sort was also given in the FI. Remember the Vulcan that diverted to Brazil - the Brazilians released the aircraft from its neutral airfield provided it took no further part in the war.

PS,

I believe British escapees interned in Vichy France were given parole and also those in Switzerland and Spain I think.

Easy Street
3rd Sep 2013, 20:26
There's a lengthy historical review of the concept of PoW parole here (http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/law/pow_parole.pdf), which confirms 5645andym's recollection about British parole-breakers being sent back to the French. In fact parole appears to have been a pretty widespread practice up until WW1...

It would appear that the 'duty to escape' is a relatively new concept in historical terms. I wonder if its rise was driven by the increasing value of particularly specialised personnel, e.g. aircrew - or whether it just reflects a general reduction in chivalry over the years!

MPN11
3rd Sep 2013, 20:50
Officers. Integrity. Standards. Principles. Leadership.

Hard to see through today's lens, in some respects.

It was a better World, perhaps, despite the chaos?

goudie
3rd Sep 2013, 20:52
For Goudie;

On his return to the German POW camp he was released from his bond of trust -he set about trying to escape which he achieved the following year. He was captured on the Dutch border and remained in Germany for the rest of the war.
I didn't read the full article and stand corrected. My post has been deleted

fallmonk
3rd Sep 2013, 21:04
Was there not a similar set up in the Republic of Ireland , during the Second World War ?
I seem to remember a Brittish airman out on pass , done a runner over border to Northern Ireland and on to UK , where he was abruptly about turned by the UK authority's and returned to his camp !

gr4techie
3rd Sep 2013, 21:08
I read that in WW1 if a pilot was shot down and lucky enough to survive the crash. The opposition would arrange to pick him up and take him back to the victorious pilots sqn for a celebratory meal and a few drinks in the mess together, before he got sent on his way to the PoW camp. Very chivalrous, but I imagined it turned into a "we are more civilised than you, look at how well we look after our guests" competition.

I read another interesting tale that in medieval times, around the battle of Agincourt, it's a myth that armies intended to slay or capture nobility.... They were worth more alive when held to random.
As the knights rode into Agincourt, the rich nobles would be carrying cash on them so they could buy their freedom if they got surrounded. Only the peasants got killed or captured.

Churchills Ghost
3rd Sep 2013, 21:14
I stand corrected.

Ah, fear not! For I am bound to c*ck it up in a post coming near you sometime soon!

Officers. Integrity. Standards. Principles. Leadership.

Hard to see through today's lens, in some respects.

It was a better World, perhaps, despite the chaos?

Hear, hear chum.

Pontius Navigator
3rd Sep 2013, 21:20
fallmonk, agree, I heard that too.

Tiger_mate
3rd Sep 2013, 21:21
There was a Spitfire pilot at a POW camp in Eire. If they signed a promise to return, they were allowed liberty in the local town (as did the Germans). Said Spitfire pilot returned to barracks (from the gate) for his gloves, and in doing so signed back in. He then left (with gloves) did not sign out again and thereafter did a runner to Northern Ireland. He was sent back to Eire by the British authorities.

Whether or not there was an agenda in his return is unknown, but possible.

Duncan D'Sorderlee
3rd Sep 2013, 21:39
Dan Snow did a programme on the digging up of said Spitfire pilot's ac - IIRC he was American. He was indeed sent south back to Dublin after he 'escaped' his interment. His ac's machine guns - after getting washed - worked exactly as expected after 70 years in an Irish bog.

Duncs:ok:

MAD Boom
3rd Sep 2013, 22:03
Mine is a rather cynical viewpoint.

A growing number of those I know and work with are more than happy to keep their word or admit to their mistakes so long as they are then perceived as honest and trustworthy and benefits their advancement. However, should there be potential repercussions which could prevent this, they are far too often taking the easy way out and hiding behind excuses, bending the truth or even worse, passing the buck.

It may be controversial to say, but in my opinion I would say that it is our younger and less experienced brethren who mostly fall in to the latter category, which could go part way to answering the OPís original question that maybe it is our schools which are letting them down. However, I do see examples of poor role models in my own peers who need a check of their integrity caption from time to time which could suggest that there are problems within our own training and development systems.

I do not suggest that it is wholly confined to the military; we only have to look at some of our countryís MPs as an example of those who have demonstrated a lack of integrity, and have made and broken promises solely to benefit their own careers. This is just one example, among a great deal of poor role models in the world today which would point towards the fact that this is just the kind of world in which we live.

Of course, I am squeaky clean and live at 1, Moral High Ground Place, Integrity City, Fantasyland. Joking aside, I would like to think I have the courage to admit when I am wrong, not for personal gain, but knowing the negative impact it has on the safety and well-being of my colleagues and the success of our operations should I defer to the less-honest option. This I would put down to a solid upbringing and some excellent role models during my early flying career. And yes, before the insults fly in, I am human and I do screw up; I have found myself on the wrong side of Minor Administrative Action after putting my hand up to a mistake (Just Culture my ar*e, but thatís another story...........)

Iíll probably sleep soundly tonight in my whiter-than-white existence; despite the best-efforts of this damn mattress that the mess has provided which constantly tries to cripple me........

TomJoad
3rd Sep 2013, 22:04
Do our teachers still encourage such honour and courage to those being taught in our schools and universities today?

WWI soldier keeps his word (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2410059/WW1-soldier-released-German-prison-camp-dying-mother-Kaiser-promise-returned-cell--did.html)


Yes. In addition, I also encourage them to cultivate the virtue in not being caught in the first place:\

Churchills Ghost
3rd Sep 2013, 22:11
MAD Boom - reading your post has encouraged me and reminds me there is always hope, however feint it may sometimes seem.

Bonne Nuit fellow PPRuNers, the bed and a Wilbur Smith novel do beckon.

thing
3rd Sep 2013, 22:14
maybe it is our schools which are letting them down.

:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

How about PARENTS who are letting them down?!!!

TomJoad
3rd Sep 2013, 22:34
:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

How about PARENTS who are letting them down?!!!

Never a truer word spoken. To paraphrase the Jesuit maxim (allegedly) "give me the child until the age of seven and I will give you the man"

In the Catholic tradition parents are given the responsibility and honour of being the child's first and principal teacher. To expect teachers who are employees of the state to make up for the deficit of poor or disinterested parenting,while understandable, is ultimately a doomed expectation.

So please, don't look to teachers to address the moral deficit, look rather closer at home and dare I say it to us (our generation), for it is from there that the lead is taken. And don't be too ready to condone the "yoof" of today, take the time and you will find equal examples of virtue, courage and fortitude. From what I see in them on a daily basis they are no different than we were and in many ways they are better. In the words of the Who "the kids are alright".:ok:

althenick
3rd Sep 2013, 23:09
Yeah but they were barking mad in the early 19C.

... They weren't much better in the Early 20th

The Somme
Paschendale
Jutland
Pilots not allowed to wear parachutes as they were seen as cowardly
20mins of flying training before being sent into battle

Aye Sensible times :*

TomJoad
3rd Sep 2013, 23:27
... They weren't much better in the Early 20th

The Somme
Paschendale
Jutland
Pilots not allowed to wear parachutes as they were seen as cowardly
20mins of flying training before being sent into battle

Aye Sensible times :*

Indeed, not to mention young men being shot by their own side because they were deemed to have deserted, "lacked moral fibre" or were conscientious objectors. I never could understand how we could reconcile honouring acts of valour while executing others at the same time. In honouring valour we recognise an act that is deviant from the norm; something exceptional of character. They should have also recognised then that not all were so imbued. Aye sensible times.

Wensleydale
4th Sep 2013, 09:22
How about PARENTS who are letting them down?!!!


If you could sterilise every teenager who failed to achieve GCSE grade C in English and Maths then the education crisis/housing crisis/benefits crisis/crime wave/unemployment (and a few others) could be solved within a generation!

Churchills Ghost
4th Sep 2013, 09:46
I specifically did not place the onus of behavioral conduct upon the parents in my opening comments because it is blindingly obvious that in the applicable cases, they have thoroughly failed. What then, a national training centre for millions of parents? No, it is too late for them (in many cases) and to place upon them the burden of instilling decent manners, basic morals and "normal" living is akin to endorsing the leading of the blind by the blind!

In schools, colleges, universities and the military our young ones receive instruction and there is no reason why, with the backing of our population, these institutions could not serve to support and encourage those qualities which would serve our youth in their future and in the process enhance their ability to be of benefit to our country.

Broadsword***
4th Sep 2013, 10:12
I'm sure a search through the Gieves & Hawkes archives (and the unsettled bills therein) would put the lie to the romantic notion of a soldier's word being his bond.

Fareastdriver
4th Sep 2013, 10:16
If you could sterilise every teenager who failed to achieve GCSE grade C in English and Maths then the education crisis/housing crisis/benefits crisis/crime wave/unemployment (and a few others) could be solved within a generation!

We would then be outnumbered by Asians.

Churchills Ghost
4th Sep 2013, 10:37
I'm sure a search through the Gieves & Hawkes archives (and the unsettled bills therein)

I have no bills with them sir! :O

ShyTorque
4th Sep 2013, 10:40
Never been a POW, but a company I once worked for made it feel like it.

I resigned by letter and was told they required three months notice, which they got. I was called to the office of the head of HR who demanded I work an extra three and a half weeks over and above the three months because there were factory shutdowns at the beginning and end of my notice period. Not surprisingly (they had a reputation) they were having difficulty recruiting a replacement pilot (actually they needed three new pilots, the CP and the training captain had also resigned not long before me).

Needless to say, I didn't work the extra time.... I just got on with digging the tunnel.

sitigeltfel
4th Sep 2013, 10:50
I suppose this can be traced back to medieval times, (possibly earlier) when captured nobility were held to ransom. Many were released on the promise that the money would be paid, and a gentleman's honour was at stake if he failed to pay up.

Pontius Navigator
4th Sep 2013, 11:00
[QUOTE=althenick;8028907Pilots not allowed to wear parachutes as they were seen as cowardly [/QUOTE]

Even in the 60s V-force aircrew were discouraged from doing the in to water parachute jumps.

Martin the Martian
4th Sep 2013, 11:04
Some years back me and Mrs. Martian applied to go down the adoption route with the local authority. The processes involved were incredibly exacting and demanding and we decided eventually that it would not be for us. Probably what did not help was my remark to our assigned social worker that if all natural parents had to go through the same process before being permitted to procreate we wouldn't be in the mess we are.

Anyway, moving on, and on Sunday I was invited to be a judge at the ATC Plymouth and Cornwall Wing training day at Okehampton camp. Having not been involved with the Air Cadets for 20 years, I was very impressed with the attitude and enthusiasm of the cadets I met. It was a wonderful counterpoint to the 'feral youth' stories so beloved by the media, and I intend to suggest to Wing HQ that they invite the media along next time.

Wensleydale
4th Sep 2013, 11:04
Even in the 60s V-force aircrew were discouraged from doing the in to water
parachute jumps.


I understand that these training events have been cancelled to save money, although the total cost was just a drop in the ocean!

Churchills Ghost
4th Sep 2013, 11:10
Anyway, moving on, and on Sunday I was invited to be a judge at the ATC Plymouth and Cornwall Wing training day at Okehampton camp. Having not been involved with the Air Cadets for 20 years, I was very impressed with the attitude and enthusiasm of the cadets I met. It was a wonderful counterpoint to the 'feral youth' stories so beloved by the media, and I intend to suggest to Wing HQ that they invite the media along next time.

Sounds promising Martin.

Honestly speaking, we would be helping our youth if we were to reinstate National Service.

Wensleydale
4th Sep 2013, 11:42
Honestly speaking, we would be helping our youth if we were to reinstate
National Service.


You'd probably find that most of them would prefer the sterilisation option.

Churchills Ghost
4th Sep 2013, 13:06
We would then be outnumbered by Asians.

Or .. transgender muslims (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2411152/Former-Territorial-Army-male-soldier-28-Britain-s-transgender-Muslim-woman-MARRIED.html).

Fg Off Bloggs
4th Sep 2013, 14:36
Churchills Ghost,

You say in the post that you started this thread with:

a classic example of a gentleman who valued the keeping of his word

I question your philosophy and that of Mr Van Emden (a German sounding name if ever I heard one) as reported by Victoria Ward in today's DT!

Captain Robert Campbell, aged 29, was captured just weeks after Britain declared war on Germany in July, 1914.

So, he's in prison in Magdeburg for 2 years and surviving.
He gets permission to go and see his dying mum, as long as he promises to come back.
He goes home and makes his peace with his dying mum and, meanwhile, hears about all the carnage and death on the front-line.
And thinks to himself, balls to this for a game of soldiers, war or no war a man's word is his bond and Magdeburg sure beats years of uncertainty in the trenches and a likely death sentence!
Magdeburg here I come.

War's over, he's released and unharmed, he goes home - no stigma, no coward, no sanction and he retires from the Army in 1925 at the age of 40 only to rejoin in 1939 as Chief Observer in the ROC on the Isle of Wight.

He lives a fruitful life dying eventually at the age of 81 in 1966 when the majority of his contemporaries had died over 50 years prior!

Now who's cynical - me or him?

Bloggs:cool:

PS. I note from your profile that you indicate no prior military career or interest and that all the threads you have started bar almost none have little to do with military aviation and are all of a political bent. Are you a Troll or a Journo?:rolleyes:

TomJoad
4th Sep 2013, 18:20
Or .. transgender muslims (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2411152/Former-Territorial-Army-male-soldier-28-Britain-s-transgender-Muslim-woman-MARRIED.html).

What a rather bizarre thing to say.:=


Churchill's Ghostie, I think you really have no idea what our current youth are like. Have a care to step inside our schools and I think you will find that you hold rather opinionated and erroneous ideas as to their character. Remember too that the values of our society belong fair and squarely to us, you and I. We presided over the changes in the so called moral compass that took us to the place we now find ourselves. You could argue that our generation lacked the strength of character to hold in check the downward trajectory of values that you so lament. So again, don't put our failings onto the kids - nothing to do with them. Start looking closer to home. I don't think your namesake would have held such condemnation of youth as you do.:=

NutLoose
4th Sep 2013, 18:32
Parole was a common thing, even during WW2 it went on, I read of one case in Italy where one Officer so as to not break his parole after having making contact with the partisan when on it returned to captivity thus honouring his Parole and then escaped.


Prisoners of war[edit source | editbeta]

Parole is "the agreement of persons who have been taken prisoner by an enemy that they will not again take up arms against those who captured them, either for a limited time or during the continuance of the war".[9] The US Department of Defense defines parole more broadly. "Parole agreements are promises given the captor by a POW to fulfill stated conditions, such as not to bear arms or not to escape, in consideration of special privileges, such as release from captivity or lessened restraint."[10]
The practice of paroling enemy troops began thousands of years ago, at least as early as the time of Carthage.[11] Parole allowed the prisoners' captors to avoid the burdens of having to feed and care for them, while still avoiding having the prisoners rejoin their old ranks once released; it could also allow the captors to recover their own men in a prisoner exchange. Hugo Grotius, an early international lawyer, favorably discussed prisoner of war parole.[12] During the American Civil War, both the Dix-Hill Cartel and the Lieber Code set out rules regarding prisoner of war parole.[13] Francis Lieber's thoughts on parole later reappeared in the Declaration of Brussels of 1874, the Hague Convention, and the Geneva Convention Relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War.[14]
In the United States, current policy prohibits US soldiers who are prisoners of war from accepting parole. The Code of Conduct for the US Armed Forces states: "I will accept neither parole nor special favors from the enemy."[15] This position is reiterated by the Department of Defense. "The United States does not authorize any Military Service member to sign or enter into any such parole agreement."[16]

Parole - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parole)

strake
4th Sep 2013, 19:45
There was indeed a parole system for British and German POW's in neutral Southern Ireland. I know because my father was a very young guard at K-Lines,The Curragh.
Most of the POW's were British and German aircrew who, for a number of reasons, found themselves in Southern Ireland.
As far as I recall, the parole system only extended to visiting the local towns on the basis of a written promise to be back by a certain time.

mad_jock
4th Sep 2013, 19:50
There was a system in the UK as well.

The number of Italian descent family's in Orkney will prove.

hanoijane
4th Sep 2013, 19:51
Are you a Troll or a Journo?

Good lord, what's wrong with being a writer? It's what I now do for a living. It doesn't invalidate the time I spent playing fighter pilot.

You'd be surprised how many freelancers are ex-military. Granted, most are ex-army, but still.

Don't fret. No SERIOUS writer would come here looking for insightful perspective on anything related to military aviation.

I wouldn't be surprised if CG is a writer. He can certainly string words together in a far more constructive and interesting manner than most here. I think he's funny.

And well noted, Tom. The entitlement generation of today didn't create themselves, they were created by parents who hadn't been taught how to raise kids properly by their own mothers and fathers. So, by my thinking, the very people who whine so loudly about 'moral decline' - those in their 70's and 80's - are the ones who allowed it to begin in the first place.

NutLoose
4th Sep 2013, 20:07
Don't fret. No SERIOUS writer would come here looking for insightful perspective on anything related to military aviation.

Actually not true, we had some chap writing a short screenplay popping in asking technical questions to hone his script so as to give it a more accurate feel, he had the script taken up as well. :)

He popped on to thank those that helped him out.

hanoijane
4th Sep 2013, 20:11
The world and its mother are writing short screenplays.

If it ever gets made, tell me how large a slice of humble pie you'd like me to eat. Until then, I stand by my statement.

Churchills Ghost
4th Sep 2013, 20:22
Some flack coming in, well deserved I'm sure!

Fg Off Bloggs, I have no way of judging the motives of the Captain in the story but the impression of someone going to what one assumes would be extraordinary lengths or, failing that, having to wrestle with one's conscience over the matter of keeping one's word to a foreign monarch I know not. Moreover, I can't tell whether you or he is the cynic. Nevertheless, the principle of keeping one's word is what I wanted to highlight by this story.

Not actually sure what at "Troll" is and certainly not a journo as you put it but, just like you, have the right to air my view including those which may be political. Politics seems to affect everything nowadays.

So, by my thinking, the very people who whine so loudly about 'moral decline' - those in their 70's and 80's - are the ones who allowed it to begin in the first place.

This generation, who would have worked and been in their early 20's in post-war Britain were exposed to enormous changes to our way of living and I don't know what more could have been done in certain areas and yet in others I have clear views of what I see as obvious and harmful neglect.

But, all of this is somewhat periphery to the upholding of one's word which was really the virtue I wanted to highlight.

hanoijane
4th Sep 2013, 21:19
So why is it that in Asia - Taiwan for instance - the young are responsible, polite, self-motivated and have an outstanding work ethic, yet the young here are wedded to the iphone/facebook/drinking/let's-have-a-giggle culture?

As you note, both had grandparents who were in their 20's at the end of WWII. Yet in TW they've managed to maintain these values through the next two generations.

Were you too busy fretting over your careers, Ford Cortinas, holidays abroad or pension plans to care about your kids, or how your kids would bring up their kids?

Please. Tell me. I'm genuinely interested.

And it actually relates very nicely to keeping one's word. To the debt you owe to your parents and the responsibility you owe to your children. Dontcha think?

500N
4th Sep 2013, 21:24
"So why is it that in Asia"

Not just Asia.

Here in Aus, the difference is huge from culture to culture
with Asians seemingly doing what you say.

Virtually every Chinese restaurant I used to go into has a Chinese kid or young person working in it, obviously a family member.

Most Aussie kids are on the computer 24 / 7 and won't get a job.


(We have a very large Chinese and other Asian population (Vietnamese) here in Melbourne - and other parts of Australia).

Churchills Ghost
4th Sep 2013, 21:25
Yes sir, I fully agree with you!

But I can only speak for myself and not the millions of other British households and what they have maybe left undone or perhaps failed to do.

Somewhere along the line in post-war Britain we lost our moral/ethical compass is what I think.

baffman
4th Sep 2013, 21:35
Fg Off Bloggs, you could have saved yourself some of that elaborate faux analysis of Campbell's motives if you had bothered to read post #9:

On his return to the German POW camp he was released from his bond of trust -he set about trying to escape which he achieved the following year. He was captured on the Dutch border and remained in Germany for the rest of the war.

Having said that, I agree that the OP's premise is equally questionable.

hanoijane
4th Sep 2013, 21:41
500,

You are in Asia. Well, west Pacific rim. Same thing

ACW418
4th Sep 2013, 21:48
Hanoj,

That is just a load of rubbish. Having been a youth leader for 40 odd years in the Air Cadet movement I can speak with some authority that the youth of today and quite a considerable number of yesterdays are in general as committed and hard working as they were in my youth. As far as I can tell that is much like the youth of the Second World War was too.

I suggest you do some real research and concentrate less on the sensational headlines!

ACW

500N
4th Sep 2013, 21:49
hanoijane

Regardless of what Paul Keating and John Howard said,
I do not look at us as "in Asia".

Yes, we are CLOSE to Asia and can and are influenced by it
but I don't think we are in it as well as being a predominantly
White Anglo Saxon Christian Country.

If we are in it, then so is NZ as the northern part of NZ is at
the same level as Sydney !!!

500N
4th Sep 2013, 21:51
ACW

"can speak with some authority that the youth of today and quite a considerable number of yesterdays are in general as committed and hard working as they were in my youth."

That may be in the Air Cadets with self motivated people but as a general rule across society, I don't see that.

I see kids who don't play as much sport as before, play less outside,
spend as much time as possible on the computer playing games and
don't want to get a job !!!

Even when I first came to Aus - 78 - 82, many kids had a job.
Not now.

Churchills Ghost
4th Sep 2013, 21:57
"Territories" which share high levels of cultural compatibility (at present) include: Australia, Britain, New Zealand, North America (USA/Canada) and South Africa.

hanoijane
4th Sep 2013, 22:01
ACW,

Get a grip.

Or, more usefully, stop hanging round with Air Cadets (who comprise c. 0.001% of the 12-24 age group) wander out into the real world, get on a bus - anytime of day will do - and listen to the 'youth of today' as they chat amongst themselves.

I regret to say that attitudes like yours are a significant part of the problem. After all, if you think everything is fine, you'll hardly be motivated to instigate or support change, will you?

hanoijane
4th Sep 2013, 22:11
500,

C'mon. Seriously!

I understand Australia's heritage and cultural background. WASP for sure. But now?

We both know the influence of China is RAPIDLY rolling over Asia, and not just in business or commerce. Language and culture too. I suspect we'll live to see Chinese as Australia's second language, if it's not there already.

Your present is half in Asia, half clinging on to ties with the West, but your future is entirely Asian. Besides, when you have the CUTEST Vietnamese girls flooding onto the street of Melbourne, can you really complain?

Fg Off Bloggs
4th Sep 2013, 22:13
Can a Moderator please tell me what this thread has got to do with Military Aviation!!!

Time to close this now and go for a beer!! 🍺

Bloggs:ok:

PS. Thanks for the heads up, baffman, but it doesn't really change anything in my view!🇬🇧🇬🇧

hanoijane
4th Sep 2013, 22:17
Can a Moderator please tell me what this thread has got to do with Military Aviation!!!

Obviously, very little. But it was an interesting chat nevertheless.

500N
4th Sep 2013, 22:20
"Time to close this now"

Hold on a sec, what do you mean close it.

If it's not enough military, get it moved to JetBlast
but don't just close it.

Churchills Ghost
4th Sep 2013, 22:23
You can always consider the fact that the youth of today will be the pilots of tomorrow so understanding today's younger generation can do no harm.

As for Fg Off Bloggs finding the thread somewhat irksome and then trying to disparage the OP, well, I don't think there is an opiate for that! :E

Churchills Ghost
4th Sep 2013, 22:29
Well gents its been a pleasure as always. Still ploughing through Wilbur Smith (such a terrific author) and about to pick-up the novel in a few mins.

500N, agree with all your comments.

Until tomorrow (if the thread's still around).

Bonne Nuit.

TomJoad
4th Sep 2013, 23:34
Don't know about closing the thread nor its relevance to Military matters; anyway, we should not care to be held hostage to fortune to either. What I do know is that the OP's original premise is somewhat duplicitous. The story of Captain Campbell is no more than slight of hand seeking to soften the blow of the main act, the OP's complaint of the youth of today measured against the self perceived standards of his generation. An age old complaint which says more about the failings and insecurities of the complainant than it reflects on our youth. I remember coming across similar debate during teacher training (my oh my was the educational theory dull):


"The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for
authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place
of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their
households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They
contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties
at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers.

SOCRATES by Plato, according to William L.
Patty and Louise S. Johnson, Personality and Adjustment, p. 277
(1953)."

As always, the accuracy of the attribution is not without risk; however, if we are honest, I think all of a balanced disposition would recognise its validity in sense. In the 120 or so pupils that I have direct interaction with on a daily basis, a considerable number more indirectly, I see nothing in them to support the concern of impending collapse in virtue, honour or courage as suggested. I am in no doubt whatsoever that if such an ability were to be the gift of the young then the preceding decades of the 60s - 90s would already have done for us.

Socrates was no doubt past his prime when he made his disparaging remarks. Maybe, with fewer years ahead of him than lay behind he was just being, well, a grumpy old man. As the saying goes "nothing new under the sun". So Churchill, me old fella, get yourself into a local school - the kids won't bite, the world ain't going to hell in a hand basket at their hands, but it will pass you by for sure if you fail to engage with them :ok:

Teldorserious
4th Sep 2013, 23:56
Maybe it was true.

All the while generals were blowing the whistle and sending young men wave after wave to their deaths, waiting for the Maxim to over heat. That's how you do it by the way - 'No Man Left Behind' 'Semper Fidelis' 'Honour and Country' and other such simple slogans that simple men latch on to.

500N
5th Sep 2013, 00:12
Fg Off Bloggs

See, someone took the hint and moved it to JB, not too difficult to do.

I much prefer threads suffering thread drift to be moved than closed.

But that is my HO and understand others have other positions.

TomJoad
5th Sep 2013, 00:24
Maybe it was true.

All the while generals were blowing the whistle and sending young men wave after wave to their deaths, waiting for the Maxim to over heat. That's how you do it by the way - 'No Man Left Behind' 'Semper Fidelis' 'Honour and Country' and other such simple slogans that simple men latch on to.

Exactly, and the slogans become the credo to motivate and have potential to bend the will towards a cause that, perhaps with independent thought, may not be so eagerly supported. But these slogans end up framing the so called moral standards, used by the establishment to (conscientiously or not) shape society. I often think that the recruitment posters of the 1st world war are telling; their hidden coercive agenda transparent to our modern standards. I remember one that popped up a few weeks ago on the TV extolling the non volunteer to "consider your so called excuse for not enlisting". Very presumptuous and ready to dish out the gilt trip. Today's youth would have no hesitation in seeing through such; if this is a result of a departure from the superior sense of virtue and honour being lamented then I for one welcome it.

Before anyone jumps down my throat I have no difficulty with the efficacy of military credo (badges, emblems, mottoes) in building esprit de corps etc. Most effective, Per Ardua Ad Astra, but let's keep them for the volunteer.

con-pilot
5th Sep 2013, 00:30
My mother worked in a German Officer's POW camp in Roswell, New Mexico during World War Two. She told me that toward the end of the war, it was very common for the POWs to be given parole to go into town. In fact they had a bus service that would pick them up at the camp and then return them. As long as they would return back to the POW camp by sundown, there was no problem.

She also said the senior German Officers were more strict on enforcing the rules of parole than the Camp Commander. It was a matter of honor to them. I asked her if any were SS officers, she said no, that they were sent to a special POW camp. But I don't think she told me the total truth, as she would become uncomfortable talking about the SS.

Now there were some escape attempts, none by any of the POWs on parole. But there was only one direction they could really go and that was south to Mexico. Usually they surrendered after they ran out of water*. None ever managed to escape into Mexico. Where they probably would have been sent back anyway.


* Roswell back then was really out in the middle of nowhere. Come to think about it, it still is. :p

500N
5th Sep 2013, 00:37
I seem to remember some prisoners working in the fields in the UK
during the war ?

Italians ?

RJM
5th Sep 2013, 01:46
You beat me to it, TomJoad. I was going to quote Horace, complaining about a friend who was 'tiresome, and a praiser of the times that were when he was young' which is along the same lines.

To parole. An old 'cerise' Penguin, 'The Escaping Club', has numerous examples of British soldiers in WWI accepting parole and travelling unguarded in trains etc.

Another quote, from de la Rouchefoucauld, on promises: We make promises according to our hopes and keep them according to our fears.

galaxy flyer
5th Sep 2013, 02:06
Funny, Gieves and Hawkes came up and unpaid bills. I took a ride up the rails in an A-10, my brother of the Grumman Tomcat sent them a letter and posting of my safe, if injured, escape; they prompted forwarded The Tie and best wishes for a speedy recovery. I sent them a reply explaining that it was a McAir ACES II, not a Martin-Baker, seat to which the graciously said best wishes, keep the tie.

Grumman, where the motto is, "if it says Grumman on the rudder peddles, it better say Martin-Baker on the seat".

GF

galaxy flyer
5th Sep 2013, 02:10
I seem to remember some prisoners working in the fields in the UK
during the war ?

Italians ?

Could have been Ukrainians. My father's cousin surrendered to the British Army from the Wehrmacht in '45, a Ukrainian patriot who detested what Stalin had done to his Polish/Ukrainian region near Lvov and joined the Germans. Survived the war, surrendered to the British, stayed in a camp near Birmingham, married and emigrated to Canada.

GF

RJM
5th Sep 2013, 05:09
We had a lot of Italians down here in South Australia during WWII, in a market garden area with sweet soil. Some of them are still here. No escapes, as far as I know.

PLovett
5th Sep 2013, 06:13
Geez, RJM...........it'd be a bleedin' long swim from Oz to Italy. No wonder none escaped. :}

500N
5th Sep 2013, 06:25
Australia is a VERY harsh environment to escape into.
Not many people I know would survive.

Lon More
5th Sep 2013, 07:37
There was a bit on the Beeb last nigh about this.
t was said he felt compelled to return, not only because he'd given his word, but because if he didn't it might influence a future decision in a similar case.
Unfortunately, as pointed out earlier, this didn't influence the British high command.

Fg Off Bloggs
5th Sep 2013, 07:46
Jet Blast is a much better location for this.

Bloggs

500N
5th Sep 2013, 07:49
Bloggs

Agree.

So next time a thread drifts, ask for a move instead of a close it !

G-CPTN
5th Sep 2013, 10:56
In the years immediately following WWII, as a young child, I observed a man waiting for a bus outside our house and insisted that he be invited in to join us for tea.
It transpired that he was a POW 'on leave' from the nearby camp. He made several visits to us during his periodic 'releases'.

For some years after he returned to Germany we sent parcels and received letters in return.

When we moved house we lost touch.

Of course he would almost certainly now be deceased, but I wonder how his fortunes developed.

rgbrock1
5th Sep 2013, 14:25
'Happiness, integrity and moral duty are inseparably connected.'

-- General George Washington
Commander-in-Chief - Continental Army

Cacophonix
5th Sep 2013, 15:57
'Happiness, integrity and moral duty are inseparably connected.'

Jawohl en ve vill shoot you verdammte Amerikaner if you try and escape...! ;)

Caco

VP959
5th Sep 2013, 16:10
I seem to remember some prisoners working in the fields in the UK
during the war ?

Italians ?

One of the farm hands on my uncle's farm was a former German POW. He was sent to work the land rather than be held in a prison camp during WWII. He married one of the village girls and still worked on the farm in the 50's/60's when I used to go and help out during the school holidays. Nice chap, well respected in the local pub as the best dominoes player in the whole area.

rgbrock1
5th Sep 2013, 16:13
Caco:

I'm not sure I see a correlation between the words spoken by George Washington and anything German. Unless, of course, one is speaking of certain, ahem, German (Hessian) mercenaries employed in the service of His Majesty Charles III.

Cacophonix
5th Sep 2013, 16:19
RGB I was simply making the slightly cynical and oblique point that despite the fine ideals of gallantry etc. in war (linked indirectly to Washington's words) the only things that really count are a ruthless heart, a good aim and good armaments...

Caco

rgbrock1
5th Sep 2013, 16:31
Caco:

I concur! Peace through superior firepower also sums it up.

However, in George Washington's day aiming ones musket wasn't really all that necessary nor desirable and was not at all practiced by the British redcoats or the American militia and/or continental army. Lines and lines of infantry letting loose with vaguely aimed musket volleys was the order of the day. And that doesn't even count the canon volleys of grape-shot employed as a means of inflicting mass casualties which was also used.

Until some ingenious fellow who was part of the Virginia militia (the Virginia Riflemen) came up with the idea of careful aim at a target using the Kentucky rifle, which was a muzzle-loaded flintlock rifle with a rifled barrel. I believe the fellow's name was Murphy. Don't recall his first name though.

Cacophonix
5th Sep 2013, 16:41
Your informed comments piqued my interest RGB. It appears his name was Tim...

American Rifleman Mobile (http://www.americanrifleman.org/mobile/article.php?id=13049)

Caco

rgbrock1
5th Sep 2013, 16:48
That was him Caco! Thanks for the link as the story within is interesting as well.

Mechta
5th Sep 2013, 16:59
Re Rifling

If you believe the Free Enterprise Patriot (http://www.first-team.us/assigned/subunits/82nd_fa//fep_saga/fepndx04.html), rifling was invented accidentally...


With regard to German prisoners of war. There is a story, maybe apocryphal, of one who was allowed out to help a family with their garden. In early 1946 after the ex-POW had gone back to Germany, the snowdrops came up in the English garden and spelt out the the words, 'Heil Hitler!'

TomJoad
5th Sep 2013, 23:36
Re Rifling

If you believe the Free Enterprise Patriot (http://www.first-team.us/assigned/subunits/82nd_fa//fep_saga/fepndx04.html), rifling was invented accidentally...


With regard to German prisoners of war. There is a story, maybe apocryphal, of one who was allowed out to help a family with their garden. In early 1946 after the ex-POW had gone back to Germany, the snowdrops came up in the English garden and spelt out the the words, 'Heil Hitler!'

Yep I heard that one, also heard that the family dog had a penchant for defecating in the flowerbeds:}

RJM
6th Sep 2013, 15:54
True story: I grew up on a small farm in South Australia. Among the settlers of the area in the 1840s were Lutheran dissidents from Swabia in Germany, and there were still many Fechners, Schuberts, Graebers, Hartmanns etc in the locality.

In WWII my dad, for various reasons, joined the British Army (11th Hussars and Derbyshire Yeomanry), fighting in North Africa and Italy, and was awarded a Military Cross at Monte Cassino, for which I am very proud of him.

My dad respected the Germans, and never got over an incident which caused him nightmares for the rest of his life. He had shot a German, a young farmer like himself. The German, whom dad was with as he died, gave my dad his wallet, and said 'Schrieben um meine Mutter'.

Dad promised he would, and put the wallet in his map case which he kept in the hatch lid of his tank. Later that day, my father's tank was blown up and burnt. it was a serious incident, with casualties among the crew. My dad was lucky, being blown out of the tank with wounds to his legs and burns. The tank burnt out, with dad's map case. He couldn't remember the German's name or address.

My mum said that dad would wake in the night, worried about not fulfilling the dead German's request.

I think it was partly because of that incident that dad took onto our farm as farmhands a series of displaced Germans who were offered residency in Australia in the local German community. The resettlement program continued well into the 1950s, when I was a young boy.

Consequently, I grew up learning a little German, including Christmas carols - O Tannenbaum was one - from blokes called Gerhardt, Heinrich and so on. I clearly remember them. Some of them wore grey woollen trousers, which I believe were 'feldgrau'. I still have a flat, round, tapered thread, orange 'butter container', of all things, which one of them gave me.

I sometimes wonder what happened to those guys, and hope that they made a good life in Australia.

Thanks for bearing with this. It seemed an appropriate time to recall it.

TomJoad
7th Sep 2013, 12:56
RJM thanks for taking the time to post that, such a moving and encouraging story. War may well be the worst of human endeavours but there is hope that even within those darkest places there remains something in the human character that can still point to our grace. You have every right to be proud of your Dad.

RJM
7th Sep 2013, 13:33
Thanks TJ. I have a zinc-lined wooden trunk with all Dad's army stuff in it, including three little diaries he kept of his war experiences. I keep meaning to transcribe the diaries, adding anything he told me, plus whatever my 86 year old mum can add. I'm 60 now, and looking, still from a distance I hope, at my own mortality. My dad's story is not particularly unusual, but it is a unique record of unusual times, and I feel it's worth writing up. I'm sorry now I didn't 'interview' Dad about his wartime experiences when he was still around and there seemed to be so much time. I'm going to try to at least make a start.

racedo
7th Sep 2013, 15:47
BBC - Stoke & Staffordshire - Discover Staffordshire - World's largest-ever explosion (almost) (http://www.bbc.co.uk/stoke/content/articles/2008/08/15/hanbury_crater_feature.shtml)

200 Italian POWs were working in Tutbury when this blew up.

On the case of the guy returned across from NI to Irish Free State..........has been discussed on here previously.
He had parole and went into a hotel and had a meal, left without paying and stole a car and crossed the border into NI.
BBC News - Spitfire down: The WWII camp where Allies and Germans mixed (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-13924720)

TomJoad
7th Sep 2013, 20:51
Thanks TJ. I have a zinc-lined wooden trunk with all Dad's army stuff in it, including three little diaries he kept of his war experiences. I keep meaning to transcribe the diaries, adding anything he told me, plus whatever my 86 year old mum can add. I'm 60 now, and looking, still from a distance I hope, at my own mortality. My dad's story is not particularly unusual, but it is a unique record of unusual times, and I feel it's worth writing up. I'm sorry now I didn't 'interview' Dad about his wartime experiences when he was still around and there seemed to be so much time. I'm going to try to at least make a start.

I wish you all the best with that RJM I think it will be a fitting tribute. If I may offer a suggestion. When you speak to your mum tape the conversation. I have an audio tape of my Dad and its amongst my treasured possessions. Good luck with the project.

RJM
7th Sep 2013, 21:51
Thanks TJ. Good advice.

BenThere
7th Sep 2013, 22:06
Those at the pointiest end of the spear, the soldiers, are the quickest to embrace the soldiers they were sworn to kill when the hostilities are ended.

That applies to soldiers in traditional warfare. I don't think the Jihad warfare facing us for the next 50-100 years will feature that camaraderie between the forces of friend and foe.

500N
7th Sep 2013, 22:56
BenThere

Might have been the case with Europe but not the Japanese
because of how they treated everyone.

Just my HO.

BenThere
7th Sep 2013, 23:24
In some cases, yes. Others, no.