“Snap Crackle Pop” : Fast Jet HF R/T Question

[CoffmanStarter]

Good evening all ...

Long before ALE (Automated Link Establishment) technology became the standard method of achieving consistent/reliable long distance/over the horizon HF comms for Mil and Civil aircraft, how effective was the HF comms fitted on our FJ’s in the early 70's ?

I believe the Phantom F4-M (FGR.2) and the Buccaneer had HF USB kit fitted which operated between 2-30 Mhz which was connected to a Shunt Aerial located on the leading edge of the tail fin at it’s root with the fuselage.

I believe the Phantom & Buccaneer HF Box would have been similar to this type (Mil Collins).

http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/af162/CoffmanStarter/mkhXU1bmtF1H3vchXuCEzaA_zps080be977.jpg

So going back to the Phantom and Buccaneer, after you had waded through the HF Prediction/Sun Sport tables in the FIH, selected the expected “best” frequency for the time of day/month, could you easily work Architect 2 Way ? Or was it a right pain ?

I believe the Tornado F3 had HF in the Nav’s rear cockpit but I guess that may have been ALE enabled ?

The Tornado F3 HF Box.

http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/af162/CoffmanStarter/T2eC16hHJF8E9nnC9dFyBRVJn0cg60_35_zps2b208943.jpg

I was always fascinated by those tables in the AIDU FIH … not much use in a Chipmunk though !

Still interesting to see that there is still a place for HF Mil Aviation Comms in today's world of SatComms and other tech.

Of course ... if anyone has some amusing stories relating to HF usage ... don't feel constrained to share :ok:

Best ...

Coff.

[TomJoad]

Coffman,

I am starting to appreciate that you are a mind of wondurful, information.


As to your question, I have no idea what you are talking about;) But I look forward to the tales.

[CoffmanStarter]

Tom ...

Some might say otherwise ... it's an interest that started as a school boy (40 years ago) who helped get a delapated 1154/1155 (Lanc HF Radio) to work :eek:

That's one of these (but not as smart looking) ...

http://www.g0mwt.org.uk/meetings/past07-oct-dec/1154-1155.jpg

Had to make a few connectors in metalwork ...

[Courtney Mil]

The HF in the F4 actually worked really well. For QRA missions way up north (even further north than the Watford Gap Service Station!) it was a great piece of kit.

Best use I ever saw (well, heard, really) it put to was my wingman during a transit from ASI to the UK. Still in the ITCZ, he called up Architect and asked for a phone patch to his girlfriend's house to wish her a happy birthday and tell her he was on his way home. Hardly a private phone call, but we all enjoyed it all the same. She had a little difficulty getting the hang of not both both being able to speak at the same time, but once that was mastered the conversation flowed nicely. She didn't realize the whole world could hear until the next Sqn party. Wonderful Alison. :ok::ok:

[CoffmanStarter]

Excellent story Courtney :ok:

[TomJoad]

Love it, these stories are compelling, the RT thread was brilliant, put a very human side to the business. Ok, humour this ex blunty "Architect" , I'm assuming a comms station!

[glad rag]

Tornado GR1 had hf with the shunt under the black lower leading edge of the fin but it was disabled due to concerns over

1. wiggly tailerons
and
2. buckets of sunshine.

Once watched a German IDS wiggle its bits whilst parked in one of the TTTE rects hanger at Cottesmore. The fact that the electrical power input to the hanger could make those tailerons dance wasn't lost to either the aircrew or us simpleton maintainers.

And don't bother about the weekend ejecting ADR's either, ok.:\

[TomJoad]

Coffman I can appreciate the interest there - always wanted to get into ham radio but back in the day, without internet, we were clueless as to where to start. NASA run a programme where schools can talk to the ISS using Ham radio kit - you need an RT operators licence but it would be cool.

[taxydual]

Not a FJ but a Seaking, HF Phonepatch, Falklands to North Yorkshire via Portishead Radio. The clarity of the call was amazing.

West Falkland to Mount Pleasant was crap.

"Portishead Radio, Portishead Radio, Portishead Radio, this is Helicopter 41 Alpha............."

[CoffmanStarter]

Tom ...

Your homework for tonight old chap :ok:

MilComm RAF HF Flight Watch (http://mt-milcom.********.co.uk/2007/08/uk-raf-flight-watchtascomm-profile.html)

Other info sources are out there on the web ...

Best ...

Coff.

PS. Edit the ******** out the URL and change .co.uk to .com :ok:

Or just Google "RAF Flight Watch"

Sorry but BS doesn't like being hot linked :*

[bcgallacher]

Once had a hearing aid that could pick up HF transmissions on ground test - many hearing aids also pick up radar pulses - beeps every rotation of the antenna.

[CoffmanStarter]

TD ... That's a good stretch using the parallel "Washing Line" strung down the side of the SK :ok:

[Rossian]

.....a certain flt eng on a Nimrod was talking to his wife on the back home across the pond. She had similar probs re the "when you've finished speaking say over then it'll be my turn" routine as the lass that courtney mentioned.

She proceeded to tell him (and the portishead operator and the crew and anyone else on the freq) what she was going to do to him the moment he came through the door...

Embarrassed?

How we all laffed.

The Ancient Mariner

[smujsmith]

Certainly not fast jet, so not sure if it qualifies.

I was a GE on Alberts and had just done a few weeks trying to get 1312 Flt at Mount Pleasant to accept delivery of their lovely new tanker, the crew who delivered it left me there to fix it and headed Northbound,on schedule, after 3 days. Finally I'm on my way home, having hitch hiked a ride on the routine C130 run. It's a long way (well time really, as its the same distance for all) in a C130 from MPA to ASI, so I asked if I could get a HF phone patch home to update Mrs Smuj on expected arrival (ensure milkman had fair warning etc). No problem said the boys, settling back and pretending they could hear nothing. I believe it was routed through ARINC, not Architect, which was of course the RAF HF Flightwatch as I remember, and when she answered I got straight in there and explained how it wasn't like a normal phone call, when she finished speaking, it would be best if she said "over" then switch on ears. Even 7000 miles away the slamming down of the handset was obvious to all on the aircraft. The Co pilot spilled his coffee finding it very amusing. Anyway, I did call home several times after that, but never tried to give Mrs Smuj instructions again.

Smudge

Apologies if its not fitting to the thread title, I will pull it on request. It does show the problems with HF use. I have a really good, true story of fixing HF "en route" that might raise a titter or two.

[CoffmanStarter]

Keep it in Smudge :ok:

Seem to recall the Albert started off with the "Washing Line" before the shunt mod on the tail for HF ops ?

Coff.

[taxydual]

Coff

Was amazing. Especially as the 'wiggly amps' had to go 'up hill'.

[ExAscoteer]

Keep it in Smudge :ok:

Seem to recall the Albert started off with the "Washing Line" before the shunt mod on the tail for HF ops ?

Coff.

C130K had the washing line aerials till the end AFAIK. very effective they were too.

Dominie had a notch aerial in the roof and it was in the lap of the gods as to whether you'd get any comms in!

[TomJoad]

Tom ...

Your homework for tonight old chap :ok:


Like it, do I get to say that the dog ate it!

So that's what it is for - makes sense now - I'm sure the phone patches weren't abused. Would have been interesting if they could have reversed the call. Where are you, when you going to be home:\

[blaireau]

I recall the passing of "ops normal" calls from low level around Malaysia in F4 days. We used HF via Upavon to contact Tengah, a mere 200 or so miles to the south. All very hit and miss. However, the social life provided a modicum of compensation for these rigours.

[smujsmith]

OK Coff,

I'm an old bloke now so memory might not be too good but, as an ex Airframe tradesman, my brief history of HF Radio technology of the RAF C130 in the early 1990s.

When I did my C130 Ground Engineers course, 1988, the important kit on the aircraft in respect of electronics was the Nav Kit. Loran, Omega, Doppler (F and C computers) come to mind. Little heed was given to dual systems, although, we did the study and duly passed the trade exams. Therefore most of the "comms kit" remained pretty much a mystery to me, as it was duplicated across the board. We had Two VHF, UHF and HF comms systems. You had to be very unlucky to lose both. I picked up one very interesting thing though. Alberts HF systems, are quite inscrutable. It's not just the "washing line" but what really does the biz is the Aerial tuning unit (ATU) that spoofs the system into believing it has an eight mile trailing antenna, not just the washing line. I do not need to know how it does this because, there are two HF systems and one will always work. However, over a few beers instructor informs me that, there's some contacts that whizz round, and move up and down a circular coil. When they stop, it relates to a proportional extension of the antenna, I even remember discussion of "sympathetic frequencies" etc. Apparently one problem it can suffer is the contact overshooting the coils, when certain frequencies are selected and then jamming. Making the ATU inoperative.

In my second year as a GE, I'm feeling that I've been very lucky, and not had a lot of broken bits to spoil my "world tour by hammock". So off I go to Nairobi, on a trip taking around 30 Coldstream Guardsmen to their exercises. The first night-stop at Akrotiri elicited no snags from the front end. I assisted the VASS lads to put Albert to bed and that was it. Second day and the plan was a fuel stop at Luxor for Nairobi. Just airborne out of Luxor, I'm woken from my slumbers by the Loadie, "flight deck, now, go". To be informed that we have no HF and could I please fix it. On asking how both systems had gone down at the same time, the Eng says that they lost HF1 shortly after leaving Lyneham. A pity they never mentioned that as there were loads of spares available at Akrotiri. Well, we had no ranger pack so no spares. Having discussed the problem with the crew, it was decided that the HF ATU was not tuning, what can I do? As I remember now, there were 14 of these coils, each had to be in a particular position, and were not interchangeable. I'm more than willing to be told I'm wrong on this, I'm recounting what I was told, not what was necessarily correct.

I hauled the HF1 ATU from its mounting in the roof and removed its cover. There were the 14 Coils. So we need a cunning GE plan, far better than only remove one at a time, to check them all out. By now, our Guardsmen were awake, and wondering why we were dismantling the aircraft. I had 14 of them stand in the same formation as the coils in the freight bay and removed each coil, handing them to the appropriate soldier. After cleaning the coil seats I refitted each coil, it was cleaned and the contact wound back to a mid setting along the coil. Once complete the assembly went back in the roof and the crew were asked to give it a go. Amazingly it worked, Selcal was OK again, and HF contact was reestablished with Architect. The nice thing was being able to go back down the freight bay and let the soldiers know that they had fixed the aircraft. They really were very pleased, and I'm sure had a story to tell their mates. I never had an HF snag down route after that when we didn't have a ranger pack, and spare ATU, but to this day I will remember 14 Coldstream Guardsmen standing rigidly to attention holding a small coil and wondering if they would arrive safely.

Smudge :ok:

[Lima Juliet]

The Tornado F3 had a rubber grommet over the 'select to TX' stalk on the comm control panel for years - like the GR there was a concern that a wiggly would launch a rocket, drop a tank or make the fly-by-wire go nuts.

Eventually, it must have got sorted as the rubber grommets disappeared and we were allowed to do Oceanic calls with it on the way back from the Azores without a tanker - this was a right pain in the arse as it didn't have SELCAL so you had to listen to frying eggs for a couple of hours!

I also remember calling my ex-Mrs via Architect and she didn't get the idea of one person speaking at a time either! :ugh:

It always was a bonus to listen to the World Service; especially once they had got rid of the cassette deck in the back...:{

LJ

[N2erk]

Mid 70's F4 AD days, best use we seemed to put HF to was Radio Luxemburg (sp?) as pleasant background music.:) i do vaguely recall calling Cyprus and points east just to see if it was possible.:ok:
Courtney-like story- somewhere off the Norwegian coast, somewhat bored, pilot decides to have fun- requests phone patch to our Sqn ops, & asks our ops officer (excellent bloke)- Hi- this is Flt Lt XXX- can you look on the program & see what time I'm sposed to be flying today? V surprised answer- "youre sposed to be flying now!" much laughter from our end. He took the joke v well. :D

[Dave Clarke Fife]

Love it, these stories are compelling, the RT thread was brilliant, put a very human side to the business. Ok, humour this ex blunty "Architect" , I'm assuming a comms station!

If you got the above bit of homework done Tom then the set piece for tonight is to work out Haven, Viper and (this is the easy one) Cyprus :}

[clicker]

Used to listen to HF quite a bit and early in the morning was always good for a long distance TX.

From the UK managed to catch a couple of position reports, one from an F-111 (c/s Aussie Buckshot 23) of the RAAF running between New Zealand and Oz which was followed by a C130 of the RNZAF overhead Dalos running south to Byrd from Christchurch. Took me years to figure that one out as the locations didn't appear on the normal civil charts I had access to. Only sorted when I found a notam from New Zealand that changed the names of the reporting points I heard mentioned.

[BEagle]

The main troubles experienced with HF were either due to poor antenna coupling giving high VSWR or, to be brutal, ignorance on the part of the user.

If you used the frequency charts properly, then tuned the set correctly, there was rarely a problem. Although it was easier to communicate with the dead than it was with Cyprus Flight Watch!

There was also a crystal ball and astrology section at Bampton Castle who could arrange a special frequency for a specific operation. Once I asked them for a frequency to talk from an aircraft on the ground at Akrotiri to another somewhere over the south of France at o-dark-oo. They came up with a weird and wonderful frequency in the 2 MHz band. But on the night I heard the receiver as clear as a bell - he obviously wasn't expecting any luck as he had a "Well, I'm not expecting anything, but I'll give it a try anyway" tone in his voice. Which turned to astonished surprise when I replied - contact was 100%!

Speedbird London were great - and often far quicker at obtaining Met etc. than were Artichoke. Portishead Radio were very helpful with private calls; I rang a friend at her wedding reception in Lincoln whilst in transit from Bahrain to a towline in western Saudi one night! But our rude little git of a flight engineer (commissioned...) liked to listen in to private calls, which I thought was extremely bad manners.

Bringing back some F-4 mates from ASI once, they told me that they were going to have to wait ages at Brize for the MT to turn up from Wattisham as MT wouldn't despatch it until we'd landed. So a quick phonepatch to MT Ops from off the coast of Africa "Oh, just to let you know that the VC10 is about to land, so please send MT". They did - and the bus turned up just as the crew were clearing customs!

Another problem with HF was that faulty kit was rarely snagged with sufficient detail. Re-racking or box-out, new box-in was often all the fairies could do. But one 10 Sqn crew happened upon a Collins rep. over in the USA; he said he'd give the boxes to the factory as a quick set-up project and when they were reinstalled, they were astonishingly good! Paperwork? Nah.....;)

Some ex-Victor co-piglets had no idea about HF when they came to the VC10K as that was something the AEO had always used. We had a whinge-o-gram from Starfleet once complaining that no HF calls had been received from one particular crew (both pilots being ex-Victors). "Probably for about the last 3 years", was my comment!

[ORAC]

I remember doing HF trials when Architect was being commissioned. I recall some of the callsigns to this day...

"Mandate Moonbeam, Mandate Moonbeam, this is Haircut Electron, Haircut Electron, are you receiving, over"......

[Unusual Attitude]

Although it was easier to communicate with the dead than it was with Cyprus Flight Watch!

I'll pass that on to my father since he worked Flight Watch out of Akrotiri through the early / mid 70's following a stint in Bahrain. He does have several amusing stories from his end also though I'm buggered if I can remember any of them!

Regards

UA

[CoffmanStarter]

BEagle ... There speaks a man who, likewise, spent some of his youth mucking about with surplus mil radio kit at school ... CCF with you if I recall previous conversations ... and the ATC with me :ok:

I'd also add to your list of "Important HF User Knowledge" ... that being "Skip Distance" ... almost certainly explains TD's experience in the Falklands :ok:

And just to help some ... VSWR = Voltage Standing Wave Ratio ... the theoretical ideal being 1:1 or more practically 1:1.2 otherwise "frying" the ATU/Matching Unit/Tx a distinct possibility

Smudge ... Had your PAX been female, then "holding coils" may have resulted in a far different outcome :E

Nice bit of practical "hands-on-fix-it" stuff from our resident GE :

I had an inkling that some Phone Patch yarns would come up :D Keep em coming chaps :ok:

I once "earwigged" on a USAF Major trying to be reunited with his uniform that had gone AWOL at the Dry Cleaners ... he was working a Phone Patch routed through the USAF NetWork out of RAF Croughton ... he did sound a bit "heated" at the time :}

Best ...

Coff.

[thing]

I'm racking my admittedly old brains now Coff but I can't remember one of those HF boxes on the F4. I was on them from October '74 as an avionics chappie so it would have been my neck of the woods. Whereabouts was it fitted?

[teeteringhead]

But our rude little git of a flight engineer (commissioned...) liked to listen in to private calls, which I thought was extremely bad manners.
Why exclude him BEags, when much of the World could listen in?

Have done a phonepatch PAR when extremely bored on a night training sortie ..... Simulated almost total radio failure I s'pose....

Speaking of HF aerials, although much of my experience is using the Wessex with its "washing line", some of the SOAF Hueys had a strange forward facing whip-type HF aerial which actually motored in and out - changing its length - as the ATU functioned.

Cue totally predictable childish aircrew banter!

[BEagle]

Wireless Set No.12 and Receiver R107 in the CCF signals. Plus a few 38 Mk3s from WW2 and an 18 set likewise, a 19 set from a little later and lots of VHF-FM 88 sets.

We knew nothing about VCSW, so tuned for max needle indication on the ATU rather than min. The poor old PA valves glowed....and the interference on local TVs (and my chum Joe Fung's echo chamber) was spectacular.

I probaby learned more about HF from CB radio (legal), but binned it after a few years as soon as kids started to wreck what could have been a very useful facility. It saved me from being stuck on the motorway a few times though, thanks to helpful truckers' reports. And no, you didn't have to use silly 'Rubber Duck' language.....:uhoh:

Skip could be fun though. I recall trying to get through to Bombay or Calcutta or someone, only for a friendly voice to answer "Mate, this is Cocos Islands - can we help?".

Falcon Bahrain was always good and occasionally the USAF GCCS. Canadian comms were excellent and a pilot-to-met chat was easy to get. During busy trails we often used them, as well as refuelling and passing the usual HF position reports on the ocean. Then we'd ask the Nimrod if he had the latest Met for wherever - the answer was usually 'no' or was at least an hour out of date - their teenage signallers seemed to rely on Artichoke getting the info. on bits of paper from the MetO, whereas we obtained it directly. So we'd then offer it to them, if it didn't interrupt their feeding schedule....... :-(

[PTR 175]

The Bucc used the Collins 618 T3 125 W AM, 400 W CW for those interested.

On the ground we tested them via Architect, Not too taxing for them from Honington. So if we had time we would look up the prop figures and see how far we could go. Shanwick was normal and on occasions we could work with Gander. If Shanwick was quiet you would always get an interesting reply and the RT op would have a quick chat.

The Nimrod was better Marconi AD470 1000W CW with a propper antenna and ATU. We used to Pi55 off the local CBers by tuning up the kit on 27 Megs.

Once worked C/S Viper from Dartmoor with a Signallers FFR using a clark mast and antenna extension kit.

[Wensleydale]

The days of sitting between two pairs of griffon engines in the radio-nav position of an AEW Shackleton while trying to listen to HF radios.... all punctuated by the crack of ice flying off the propellers and hitting the fuselage next to your ear.

We used to have a very "hands-on" Shackleton captain who used to demand to know exactly what was happening on his aircraft (not unreasonable I suppose) except for the night on QRA when voice HF between the aircraft and Buchan was nigh on impossible and we had a pair of Bears on radar. Our radio-nav that night was an AEO who used his initiative to set up a morse circuit with architect so that he could pass the voicetel via them to Buchan. Unfortunately the pilot instantly stopped it because he "did not understand the messages that were being sent from his aircraft" and so the Bears went unreported.

(He went on to captain the Sentry, and was not happy when he asked for the radio where all the work was being done to be put into his mission radio audio push - I gave him the Link 11 data frequency).

[27mm]

Very useful kit on both F4 and F3; as well as the usual ops stuff, great for listening to the (sadly now defunct) BBC World Service, with its foot-stomping newsreel signature tune; IIRC, in its early days on the F3 (pre-collar on the Tx stalk), some WSO dude tx'd on HF shortly after t/o and the big jugs duly left the jet! ;)

[CoffmanStarter]

Thing ...

I'm racking my admittedly old brains now Coff but I can't remember one of those HF boxes on the F4. I was on them from October '74 as an avionics chappie so it would have been my neck of the woods. Whereabouts was it fitted?

The F-4K (FG.1) wasn't HF equipped. Courtney may be better able to positively ID the HF Box location on the F-4M (FGR.2). But I believe it was on the righthand wall front cockpit console just aft of the UHF comms kit which can bee seen bottom right of the following diagram ... I did find a further pic on the web of a FGR.2 Front Cockpit (XV498) but the HF Box (Top Left of my Red Circle Highlight) looks to be an earlier version of Mil Collins kit than I previously posted.

http://aviation.watergeek.eu/images/f-4m/f-4fg1-s_front.jpg

http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/af162/CoffmanStarter/ScreenShot2013-09-02at140031_zps043c24f8.jpg

PTR 175 ...

Thanks for the info :ok: It would be a brave chap working CW in a Buccaneer at Low Level :eek: Surprised no SSB ?

Best ...

Coff.

[CoffmanStarter]

Has anyone out there got an old ADIU Flight Information Handbook and could possibly copy/post the pages showing the HF Frequency Prediction/Sun Spot tables ?

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

On the F3, the HF could sometimes be the only way to get hold of the Andrew for Fleet Defence stuff. Also handy for dodging comms-jamming on v/uhf. Skip distance could be a problem though.

I used to enjoy listening to the different versions of the same news story given out by the BBC, Radio Moscow and Voice of America on alternating half hours.

I recall a possibly apocryphal story of a guy on Q over the Falklands putting a patch call through to his 'Operating Authority' ;) back in the UK, and being duly connected with his wife who was at the Xmas Draw in the Mess.

[teeteringhead]

BBC World Service, with its foot-stomping newsreel signature tune Lillibullero?? Originally an Irish Jig air IIRC, so "foot-stomping" is about right.

Always a "madeleine moment" for thinking of sandpits various when one hears that tune..........

[Courtney Mil]

That's the Compass Control Panel, Coff - "DG", "Slaved", "Synch", "Prim", "Stby", etc. It selects the source for the heading instruments between INAS (primary) and AJB7 (standby reference set) and switches between true and mag. The little gauge on the panel is the compass synch indicator and the dial on the right is the latitude selector.

HF kit in the rear cockpit. As you say, FGR2 only. I'll have a more detailed look later on, but isn't the cockpit diagram the FG1 cockpit?

[thing]

That's the Compass Control Panel, Coff - "DG", "Slaved", "Synch", "Prim", "Stby", etc. It selects the source for the heading instruments between INAS (primary) and AJB7 (standby reference set) and switches between true and mag. The little gauge on the panel is the compass synch indicator and the dial on the right is the latitude selector.
Thought it was, didn't want to stick my neck out on that one! Is it the Tacan controller just above? The UHF panel is on the right panel at the front in Coff's diagram.

[Courtney Mil]

Thought it was, didn't want to stick my neck out on that one! Is it the Tacan controller just above? The UHF panel is on the right panel at the front in Coff's diagram.

Spot on. TACAN and V/UHF on the right half hidden behind the emergency brake.

[CoffmanStarter]

Courtney, Thing ... My bad chaps ... and yes on closer inspection it is the FG1 Front Office ... Bu99er :ok:

My excuse ... its my 56th Birthday today and clearly started on some bubbles a bit too early :p

Best ...

Coff.

[thing]

Excused duties then that man! Have a good one.

[ExAscoteer]

Has anyone out there got an old ADIU Flight Information Handbook and could possibly copy/post the pages showing the HF Frequency Prediction/Sun Spot tables ?

The HF Prediction Charts weren't in the FIH but in each copy of the ERS. That said, at Lyneham we had our own charts produced covering the Civie Watch Centres such as Hong Kong Dragon, Speedbird Bahrain, ARINC and such like.

Here's the HF Predictions from a (very old) BINA:

http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa121/Debs24_photos/HFPrediction.jpg (http://s203.photobucket.com/user/Debs24_photos/media/HFPrediction.jpg.html)

[CoffmanStarter]

Many thanks ExAscoteer for taking the trouble :ok:

My memory has clearly gone tits up today :uhoh:

[clicker]

Coff,

I have a pdf of the US flight info handbook that has prediction tables for the USAF HF system dated Oct 2010 if any use to you.

ps happy birthday youngster.

[Courtney Mil]

Coff,

Firstly, a very happy birthday. God, 56!? What's it like? Are you walking OK? I'll send you nice rug. HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!!

Now, the F4 HF. I've had a look at your pictures (post #1) and the top one is very nearly the F4M HF Control Panel. The bottom-right knob was "Gain" rather than "Sens", which means the same thing with regards to circuitry, if not the true sense of the two words. The mode control knob bottom-left would only have been labelled "Off", "DSB" and "SSB" as we could only using DSB or USB.

The antenna was the skin of the aircraft and the system came with heaps of warnings like, don't transmit if anyone was near the aircraft (apparently they would suffer RF burns) or the ILS needles will be defelected by it and the fuel gauge will drift. It never said anything about the people IN THE AIRCRAFT. Hmmm.

We did have an antenna tuning coupler, over which we had no cotrol, so operator error wasn't a big issue. We just turned it on, waited for up to 15 minutes for it to warm up (really), checked which frequency to use in the prediction charts, selected it and listened to it howl whilst it course tuned, pressed transmit and heard it howl again whilst it fine tuned and Robert's your Mother's Brother. All done. Best HF kit I ever used.

[thing]

Courtney, whereabouts was the HF box? I honestly can't remember anything like that being in the front or rear although obviously my lack of brain cells cf those days may be a factor!

[Courtney Mil]

Rear cockpit, left-hand side panel. I'd have to explore my attic for possible diags - I can do so if you want. Somewhere round about my left thigh when I had the pleasure of sitting in the back, if memory serves.:ok:

[thing]

No probs, I'll believe you!

Can't see why I can't remember it, I used to spend hours in the back seat running the INAS up on a pan full of kites before the first sorties, it always seemed to be dark and bloody freezing as well, although it can't have been all of the time. Having said that there's something quite powerful about walking out to a flightline full of F4s in the breaking dawn with not a sound to be heard other than your own footsteps and the odd curlew or two. Then you fired up the first Houchin and the mayhem began. I almost felt like I was breaking an egg doing that, cracking the dawn open.

[CoffmanStarter]

Thanks for the Birthday wishes chaps ... and Courtney I know you ain't that far behind me age wise :}

Thanks also for helping me/us get to grips with the anatomy of kit and it's location ... I've just come across a further diagram from the FGR2 Pilots Notes ... if I'm able after this rather splendid glass of red ... I'll post it if you don't mind acting as "pointer" one more time :ok:

Clicker ... Please post the USAF info ... as it would be good to keep some of this stuff together on the thread.

Best ...

Coff.

[CoffmanStarter]

FGR2 rear cockpits (post the RWR Mod ... the oblong box gizmo on the top of the tail fin)

Standard

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i203/WildWeaselV/BritModeller_1/PhantomFGR2-standard01.jpg

Twin Sticker

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i203/WildWeaselV/BritModeller_1/PhantomFGR2-dualrear02.jpg

Great shame the key wasn't posted with the diagrams ... and lacking detail of the righthand console.

FG1 rear cockpits also posted here ...

Britmodeller (http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234932760-british-phantom-cockpits-fg1-versus-fgr2/)

Best ...

Coff.

PS. Where's Geehovah when you need him :cool:

[PingDit]

I used to tune into the HF CB'ers network where the ICF was 27125 if memory serves me correctly. I was in a MkI Nimrod working the radios over the SWAPP's and was instantly in contact with someone in Cornwall. I knew that they only transmitted 4 watts of power at best. The conversation went something like this:

Him - "what's your power output?"
Me - "1Kw"
Him - "Ah! Wondered why my SWR meter just wrapped itself around its end-stop!"

and then a new station joins in....

"Break Break"
Me - "Station calling, go ahead!
New station - "Callsign *** (me) receiving you loud and clear"
Me - "C/S this is C/S what's your location?"
New Station - "Labrador in lots of snow"

Taught quite a few of the crew about skip distances...

[thing]

Coff, where the INAS control panel gone!?

[CoffmanStarter]

And finally one of Courtney's pics ...

http://www.projectoceanvision.com/vox/images/chapter07/f4m_rear_cockpit_large.jpg

Coff.

[TomJoad]

If you got the above bit of homework done Tom then the set piece for tonight is to work out Haven, Viper and (this is the easy one) Cyprus :}

I suppose "my dog ate it " just wouldn't cut it! The things you learn on PPrune from sexing poisonous toads, Marilyn Monroe working in a bomb factory, Jimi Hendrix having taken the Queen's shilling - entertainment and education.:D:D

Ok here's what I found, I'd be calling up Haven if I was near Mount Pleasant and Viper if I'm heading back to Blighty from MPA and near Accession. No idea about Cyprus:p I feel like I could cut it now in a Tom Clancy novel. Thanks Dave, I enjoyed that.

[Dave Clarke Fife]

Have a gold star Tom. Glad to see you weren't drawn down the Viper= Top Gun ruse:}

I must admit the Cyprus one is the one that catches out everybody!!!

[Courtney Mil]

Coff,

I shall look out the digrams from the attic andscan them here with the keys.

Still the best HF I ever used.

Always,

Courtney.

P.S. Coff, you should be celebrating, not PPRuNing. Or do you love us that much?

P.P.S. I'll see if I can catch up with your advancing years as soon as I can. Just remember, you were once twice my age!

:ok::ok::ok::ok:

[thing]

Where's Geehovah when you need him

Think he's got a new book out soon.

[smujsmith]

Happy Birthday Coff, you "young uns" seem to throw some right good fodder up on here. Long may it linger.

Smudge:ok:

[CoffmanStarter]

Cheers Smudge old chap :ok:

Courtney, that's very kind but seriously don't go to all that trouble on my account :ok:

[Geezers of Nazareth]

Wasn't "Architect" at RAF Bampton Castle, a few miles south of Brize? Used to take a portable HF receiver out with me and park-up about 2 miles away on the other side of the river ... set on 'scan', and you knew when Bampton was transmitting! You hardly needed any aerial at all and you'd still hear them.

Things heard on HF ... quite often used to hear Dominie's out training, and passing messages to station 'BT9P' (who were, allegedly, at Cranwell and prior to that at Finningly). The messages were details of various Soviet warships. One day I took the trouble to record all the names, lats & longs, and speeds, of the vessels. When I plotted them on a map (this was in the 80's, so no cheating with Google Earth) I found that they were steaming up Doncaster high-street towards the station! I did hear some Morse Code passed to BT9P one day, but it was a bit too fast for me, but the callsign did begin 'FYY' so I can only assume that it was for real and not somebody trying to wind-up the RAF.

Not really 'RAF Flightwatch', but ... end of GW1 in early 1991 and all the US troops are being ferried home. Many, many flights heard on HF making radio calls to various world-wide HF stations and setting-up phone-patches so that the troops could 'phone home' to say they'd be coming home. One US Marine Corps helicopter carrier had a helicopter on-deck set-up with it's HF going, and doing a roaring trade with HF connections to phone-patches; I seem to remember the Radio Op saying something about charging a can of beer for each connection!

31st Aug 1997, heard a few 'special things' on HF, making me wish that I'd made a recording. Earlier that morning Princess Diana had been in the car accident in Paris and later died in hospital. VIP flight from Northolt later that morning to bring home the coffin; heard a HF contact between 'Kittyhawk' and 'Architect' leading to a phone-patch. There was the usual brief about not revealing names and ranks, etc, and what followed was a somewhat familiar voice ... Prince Charles.

[Mk 1]

Used to be posted to a Regional Force Surveillance Unit called Norforce based at Darwin in the top end of OZ. Our unit was about 500 blokes )mix of regs and reservists) tasked with conducting patrols over an area half the size of europe. Our AO was around 1700km by 1700km - HF was our only means of contact using old F1 manpacked radio sets. Tempramental beasts, but when the skills were mastered, the set was working well (and the obligatory having your tongue in the right place whilst you spun around 3 times and stood on one foot) good reliable comms could be established - easiest at night, and easiest where there were trees to string and orientate the dipole antennae from.

Atmospherics and bounce off the ionosphere are a constant source of wonder. My old man recalls during an exercise in 1966 during pre-deployment training at the Australian Army's Jungle training centre at Cunungra (south of Brisbane Qld) hearing absolutely crystal clear radio chatter between a bunch of US grunts somewhere in Vietnam and the FAC calling the airstrikes. And this was on an AN/PRC-25 set - a VHF radio with a line of sight range of probably 10km in flat terrain with the 10 foot aerial installed.

[Ogre]

I recall the HF fit on the Bucc for a couple of salient points. First it was mounted in the avionics bay above the PTR175, which meant it was too high to push it into place with your feet on the ground. Second was that the tuner was a pain to get to (never changed them much because it took the best part of a day to get all the screws out of the cover panel) but looked fantastic! A real glass-and-curiously-shaped-copper-bellows thing that looked like it was striaght out of a B movie.

Allegedly there was enough power out to spark off an unconnected fluorescent tube, so when Star Wars came out there was at least one story of a newbie being sent to a darkened HAS, only to find a light saber duel going on.

My personal story was about getting dragged out onto the pan in Cyprus to tune the HF into BBC world service. The sooties were changing an engine, and at the same time Glasgow Rangers were playing some other bunch and it was live on the radio. Hence one of the Sooties doing an engine change wearing a headset and on a very long lead.

[Lightning Mate]

...and bounce off the ionosphere are a constant source of wonder

Er, HF waves (officially 3 - 30 Mhz) do not bounce off the ionosphere.

They refract through the layer(s).

VLF waves will though - which is why they are called conduit waves.

[ShotOne]

Come on, lightning. Mk1 's explanation was close enough and helpful to a non-expert to understand the concept even though you're right.

Interested to read here about tornado HF use being discontinued due to fly by wire concerns. A great many fbw airliners, even in these days of ACARS and satcom datalink, routinely use HF every day and I've never heard of even one reported incident.

[Just This Once...]

ShotOne, we don't tend to guess about these things and these limitations came about through testing and an incident or two. The Tornado received some additional RF screening and HF comms, albeit at a lower power, were reinstated.

The difference between an airliner and a FJ is due to size. Achieving the required separation and screening on an airliner is relatively easy. Cramming everything in on an FJ is more of a challenge.

[BBadanov]

I believe the Phantom F4-M (FGR.2) and the Buccaneer had HF USB kit fitted which operated between 2-30 Mhz which was connected to a Shunt Aerial located on the leading edge of the tail fin at it’s root with the fuselage.

I believe the Phantom & Buccaneer HF Box would have been similar to this type (Mil Collins).

http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/af162/CoffmanStarter/mkhXU1bmtF1H3vchXuCEzaA_zps080be977.jpg

Well! You can accuse me of having a bad memory, but I do not recall this Collins 618T controller in the Bucc.

I am familiar with this box (and radio), I had it in modded Canberras and the F-111. But there was never anything this modern in a Bucc!!

I may be wrong, but the HF would have been some Brit crap, designated something like ARI65432.

My 2 cents, bad memory turned off...

[Ogre]

BBadanov

Sorry mate, in the 80's the HF kit in the Bucc was definately the 618 T3. Somewhere in the boxes at teh back of the garage I believe I still have my line book with the Sec Refs in it.

[BBadanov]

in the 80's the HF kit in the Bucc was definately the 618 T3. Somewhere in the boxes at teh back of the garage I believe I still have my line book with the Sec Refs in it.

hi Ogre, I started on the Bucc in 79 - I am sure there was no modern kit like 618T installed. Perhaps it came in with the Ferranti FIN 1063 upgrade? After my time.

Someone like foldie or Cuefaye (no, forget him) may have the memory ??

[Chris Scott]

Great anecdotes here. Hope it's acceptable for a civvie ex-driver to chip in?

teeteringhead,
Lillibulero is the BBC World Service signature tune that was played immediately before the "pips". Think 27mm is referring to the stomping sig tune for the old Radio Newsreel, which was a bit less melodic. Good-old Wiki reminds me it was called "Imperial Echoes". No wonder it had to go in this PC utopia we now inhabit.

BEagle talks of probs contacting Cyprus Flight Watch. Malta ATC were one of the better ones as far as ATC was concerned. In the early 1970s, when I was on BCAL VC10s, ATC comms over Africa were still on basic AM (not SSB). Southbound over Libya and Sudan to East Af was normally in the early hours. Trying to get climb clearance from Khartoum on 8882/8959 or 5505 (or whatever) was often a completely wasted effort, particularly as the dawn (horn!) approached. Eventually, you'd hear something like "Addis, Addis, Addis, Asmara on five-five," as the morning shift came on at Asmara, followed by a list of flight-plan details. (Who needs a telephone when you've got HF for point-to-point chats?) One of the best ideas was around 1972, when we introduced blind position-reports on VHF 126.9 (although BOAC rarely seemed to contribute).

Yes, although we hated BOAC, the "Speedboat" operators were always excellent (and on USB). And they had the ability to rotate their antenna in your direction, to improve marginal rx.

[Sandy Parts]

Good old 'architect' is now called 'celebrity' I think? Topical story at ISK is that the lads and lasses who operate the kit in that location are under threat of redundancy. DHFCS (contracted out to VT and then bought out by Babcock) are looking at 'options'.......
As the kit on jets - what is this new-fangled ALE you speak of? Why have such conveniences on the MR1 and MR2 when you have an AEOp who just loves listening to static and fading voices? :) You'll be wanting that 'tool of the devil' SELCAL working next! (which it never did until the day the Nimrod retired...). I never did get to see the 'mythical' winding-in of the broken HF aerial - although I can confirm that the 'frangible link' at the tail-end was indeed frangible!

[Roadster280]

As a Royal Signals Radio Telegraphist (and later Radio Tech), HF was my bread and butter. On HQ 1GP MAOTs, we used Architect quite a bit.

I remember being out night flying one night on the Plain, waiting for the Wokkas, and radio checked Architect. Couldn't raise Bampton Castle, but was surprised to hear "Hello Motley 5, this is Architect Gibraltar..." All on a 3m whip! I don't know why they used the same frequencies, but they did.

Another time I was on Dartmoor, some exercise or other with the Junglies. Mist set in, and the Senior Pilot (airborne) asked me to TX on HF so he could DF me and get a bearing. No problem, except our training had told us under no circumstances to TX for more than 20 seconds, or VERY BAD THINGS will happen (enemy EW related). I guess we'd sort of developed a mental timer, and I released the pressel after 20 secs. Cue one 2-and-a-half ring going ballistic. I can understand why now, but was a bit shocked at the time I was being ordered to override one of the golden rules.

[ACW599]

>Wasn't "Architect" at RAF Bampton Castle, a few miles south of Brize? Used to take a portable HF receiver out with me and park-up about 2 miles away on the other side of the river ... set on 'scan', and you knew when Bampton was transmitting! You hardly needed any aerial at all and you'd still hear them.<

That's interesting. From occasional liaison with them during my BBC days I thought RAF Bampton Castle was a receiver site for 2 and 81SU. The transmitters associated with it were at Greatworth, Edlesborough and Chelveston unless I'm much mistaken (which isn't impossible at this distance).

[lurkposition]

Ah, the joys of HF. I flew the C130 K during 70s and 80s. Much fun especially with some of the AM North African and Gulf nets in those says.
I still remember the pre landing checks in the Varsity T1 which alluded to the "adjustable" HF trailing antenna which of course had to be wound back in to the aircraft prior to landing. The response (as far as I remember) was "Wire locked, beads clamped".

[Cornish Jack]

Very worrying!! - until lurk position's contribution, I began to believe that there was noone else who was of the era of the photo in post#3 the long unlamented 1154/55. To be fair, the '55 was a very good receiver but the trials and tribulations of operating the 1154 were legion!:yuk: - First, find your station on the '55 IF he was transmitting, tune in carefully and then back-tune the 54 to the 55, irritating your intended station because you were 'warbling' all over his frequency!:* Life became a little simpler with the introduction of the BC100(???) Xtal generator which gave you an accurate frequency to which to tune.
HF comms were the stuff of madness - bouncing down the Med at night at 8,000' trying to pass posreps to Gloucester with not a cheep in reply and then Singapore coming up 5 x 5 offering to relay!!! The photo shows the full rig including the type J switch but omits the type 52 resistance as fitted in the Valetta. This item lived under the Siggie's desk and, in use, glowed RED HOT!!! This was the only source of hot food and was used to heat (over a period of 30- 45 minutes a bent tin of Heinz soup ... bent, because there was insufficient clearance for a non-mutilated version. On occasion, the soup would be forgotten about until it had reached super-heat and was starting to straighten. If one was blessed with an untried new arrival Nav, the can would be carefully removed from the 52 (wrapped in something thick and heatproof) and handed to the Nav with the can-opener and the remark -"Just going back for a pee, I'll have mine when I get back" followed by a swift retreat and a later return to help the Nav with mopping up the result! Well, we were all late teenagers or early 20s!
The trailing aerial mentioned by lp was the bane of the Siggie's life - from memory, 100s of turns of the winding handle to let it out, once you'd learned the hard way NOT to let it run free using flying boot as brake!! That would lose the aerial and, more importantly, the lead weighting beads, for which the charge was 7/6 in old coinage - 37.5p in today's rubbish. Winding-in was prolonged and arm-aching and potentially dangerous if not completed early enough.
Apologies for waffling on; nostalgia, as they say, isn't what it used to be!;)

[CoffmanStarter]

Sandy old chap ...

Here you go ... quite a good technical summary of ALE Technology ...

HF ALE Technology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_link_establishment)

Best ...

Coff.

[ricardian]

Cornish Jack, it was the BC221 wavemeter (http://70.33.246.110/~radio100/allan1942/bc221.html).
Lots of nostalgic HF kit here (http://www.royalsignals.org.uk/photos/)

[CoffmanStarter]

Here is the 1154/55 set up from the AP ... I also seem to recall that the 1154/55 was standard HF rig for RAF Marine Craft for many years post WWII (but clearly a different set up !) :eek:

http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/af162/CoffmanStarter/image_zps56138ae2.jpg

Also had one of these to play with as a lad ... Racal RA17

http://members.ozemail.com.au/~radio/images/RA17L.jpg

Best ...

Coff.

[Courtney Mil]

Such a neat piece of kit, Coff. You had it easy. THis was the HF fit in the rear seat of the F4...

http://www.radiomarine.org/idbfiles/0000/2837/prewi3.jpg'
Wait until I show you the radar set.

[CoffmanStarter]

No wonder you needed a Nav ! Is that why Geehovah is a little cross eyed in his latest publicity pic :E

[BEagle]

Belmont PreWi radio station at San Francisco, eh Courtney?

12 Set Tx and R107 Rx were my baptism - both were of WW II vintage. The joys of finding the 'net' in use, BFO'ing the Rx to the exact frequency, unplugging the muting link, turning down the RF gain, setting the Tx to 'tune', tweaking the Tx master oscillator frequency to null the BFO, adjusting buffer tuning for brightest lamp indication and PA tuning for max signal, then trimming the antenna....and not forgetting to reselect 'RT'. Then adjust receiver RF gain and AF gain, replace the muting link and attempt to join the net..... All for a mere 7w of HF!

14 years later, a legal UK CB radio would give 4W with considerably less hassle!

[Courtney Mil]

Sorry, Beags, old chap. Didn't quite catch your banter there. Could you do that gain in English?:ok:

[ricardian]

Worked on one HF suite where opening the door would cause a temperature change which fouled up the sensitive tuning!

[MAINJAFAD]

If memory serves there was an Architect north (81 SU det at Milltown up in the ISK/ISL area) and Architect south (which was 81 SU at Bouncy Castle).

[CoffmanStarter]

Courtney ...

F4 Radar you say ... :E

http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/af162/CoffmanStarter/image_zps7474dbe4.jpg

The trouble was that the "variable dielectric" between the input ports on this device was very sensitive :}

BEagle ...

I understood your banter ... just one thing to add ... I hope you had one of those rubber mat things to stand on :D

Now you can give Courtney a tutorial :E

Not sure of your original kit MOD state ...

Set 12 TX

http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/af162/CoffmanStarter/29c55d9d-5303-4edb-9407-1a5efce1065d_zpseb2d62a6.jpg

Set R107 RX

http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/af162/CoffmanStarter/image_zps79f4271f.jpg

Pongo Kit though BEagle !!! :eek:

Best ...

Coff.

[Courtney Mil]

I tried to understand, honest. I got as far as the St Elmo's Pipe Trench and then I started to glaze over. My friend might be able to explain...

Bill Bailey - Man and Woman - Bewilderness - YouTube

[Cornish Jack]

ricardian - of course, of course:ugh:
Mind you, just remembering the BC after 60 years impressed ME no end:-)

[Roadster280]

This is the thing I spent thousands of hours in front of:

http://www.combatradio.org.uk/vrc321.jpg

UK/RT321 & TURF

Often two of them, a couple of VHF sets, "modem" (ATR), crypto and teleprinter.

ISTR there was a 2kHz offset when working some aircraft. You'd get garbled speech when on the same dialed-in frequency. If you moved up 2kHz, that resolved it. I think that was to do with AM mode, because aircraft would often use commercial AM services, so the SSB was out by 2K. Certainly we head to detune by 2K to get Luxembourg. Their frequency was 6090 kHz, but we head to dial up 6092.

[CoffmanStarter]

Roadster280 ... Many thanks ... Do you have any stories you can (comfortably) share with us.

Coff.

[Roadster280]

Well there was that time as a sprog on exercise. Although it was just exercise traffic, we generated rather a lot of classified waste. My det commander tells me to go and burn it. So off I trog into the woods with a paper sack full of SECRET, a jerrycan of benz and a shovel.

Pit is dug, in goes the paper sack. On goes the benz. About half a can :)

In goes the match. Ker-flipping-boom! Instant mushroom cloud of burning SECRET waste distributed in forest.

I learned about the explosive properties of benz from that!

[CoffmanStarter]

Well done :D:D:D:D

[Roadster280]

Then there was the time one of our isolated dets didn't get a crypto resup. Approaching midnight (i.e. crypto change time), and the Yeoman (bloke in charge of comms planning, usually a WO, younger ones SSgt) orders me to encode the following day's keymat using BATCO and send it to the isodet!!!

So there I am, encoding a SECRET key set setting, using a RESTRICTED code. Unbelievable. It worked, but what we did there was so wrong.

Still, I was a LCpl, he was a WO. Oddly enough, a few weeks later he was no longer a WO or Yeoman, but a lowly Sgt as a result of an indiscretion in his social life. He thumped a Cpl.

[ZH875]

Well! You can accuse me of having a bad memory, but I do not recall this Collins 618T controller in the Bucc.

I am familiar with this box (and radio), I had it in modded Canberras and the F-111. But there was never anything this modern in a Bucc!!

I may be wrong, but the HF would have been some Brit crap, designated something like ARI65432.

My 2 cents, bad memory turned off...

IIRC the HF fit on the Bucc was a Collins 618T2 and was definitely mounted in the top of the radio bay.

Bucc Fairy 1985-1988

[BEagle]

Sorry, Beags, old chap. Didn't quite catch your banter there. Could you do that gain in English?

At one time, QFIs on the VC10 had to cover groundschool, simulator and flying training for new crews. Attempting to teach them about HF, atmospheric layers and the mysteries of 'skip' wasn't too difficult, but the HF tuning green light and the problems of high VSWR caused eyes to glaze over. But high VSWR could be a right pain; not only could it lead to break up of the air engineers CCTV picture, it could also cause interference to the yaw dampers, leading to thumping through the rudder pedals proportional to modulation level...

As for those co-pilots (or training captains....) who were too lazy to spend a couple of minutes doing an HF and Selcal check during the pre-flight checks....:= That would virtually guarantee that the next flight would be a pond crossing with at least one duff HF or Selcal. And if the idle pilot had been expecting an upgrade to B Cat...well, failure to complete the pre-flight checks wouldn't exactly be a good way to start off the trip.

But the most challenging groundschool lesson was attempting to teach VC10 flying controls to the navigators after they'd just had lunch.....:hmm: