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nomorecatering
31st Aug 2013, 13:13
One for the steam train enthusiasts. Union Pacific has announced it will restore Bigboy 4014 to running condition and will then use it on public trips.

While I'm not a train spotter per sey, but there is something special about a large steam loco.

Naturally, the greenies will be horrified. But kudos to UP for stumping up the cash to get one of these beauties up and running to show the younger generation how things were made when people took pride in their work.

Union Pacific to restore famed steam locomotive 'Big Boy 4014' - latimes.com (http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-union-pacific-big-boy-locomotive20130729,0,2255582.story)

Mallan
31st Aug 2013, 14:43
Old Stokers Porn.

B Fraser
31st Aug 2013, 14:56
In the meantime, here's something to oggle at.

BR 9F 92203 'Black Prince' Pull's a 1000 Tonne Ballast Train - YouTube

Lon More
31st Aug 2013, 21:55
The UPs been doing it for more than 20 years.
Here's one they did earlier.

UP Challenger #3985 + 143 Freight Cars - YouTube

The SSK
31st Aug 2013, 22:40
B Fraser Re the 9Fs as a sprog I would occasionally cycle down to Tyne Dock shed where they would let you stroll in and wander around. A few tank-engine shunters, a few 0-6-0 and 0-8-0 workhorses, and those things towering over everything else. They were bloody enormous.

Tankertrashnav
1st Sep 2013, 00:19
Sister loco Big Boy 4017 is in the National Railroad Museum, Green Bay , Wisconsin. There was a programme on channel 5 the other night about the repatriation of A4 Dwight D Eisenhower to the NRM at York for a special reunion of six surviving A4s. She had been in situ for so long that the actual building had been constructed round her and she was almost locked solid. One of the challenges in getting her out was squeezing her past the Big Boy, which had to have a shove from a giant fork lift to make space.

I agree this is a fantastic project - we may have made the fastest and the prettiest steam locos, but there is something awe-inspiring about these American monsters :ok:

Krystal n chips
1st Sep 2013, 06:05
" One of the challenges in getting her out"

TTN,

Well you could put it that way...... as a classic understatement......;)

Just about every aspect of the move(s) required an awful lot of ingenuity....I recall they planned for 5 weeks....which became 3 months in the end....

I have to say I was a bit bemused when, after all the planning, nobody had taken into account the fact the couplings on the Canadian diesel and the locomotive were, erm, not compatible. Still, some chains and a couple of lumps of wood solved that dilemma...just.

Interesting programme, spoiled only and as ever, by the CGI images of the locomotive going "plop" into Liverpool docks and other examples of what could possibly happen if the move went for a complete can of worms...which it nearly did a few times, notably with the rapidly laid tracks.

RedhillPhil
1st Sep 2013, 16:58
B Fraser Re the 9Fs as a sprog I would occasionally cycle down to Tyne Dock shed where they would let you stroll in and wander around. A few tank-engine shunters, a few 0-6-0 and 0-8-0 workhorses, and those things towering over everything else. They were bloody enormous.

Not for nothing were they nicknamed "spaceships" by loco crews. Arguably they were the best of the B.R. standard locos.

TBirdFrank
1st Sep 2013, 23:38
Apparently 4014 is about a mile from the nearest railroad so a temporary line will have to be laid, panel, by panel, in successive short lengths to drag the loco from the fairgrounds where it is currently located to a nationally connected railhead.

With the axleboxes etc all freed up and lubricated and the rods and pistons removed or islated the long tow to Cheyenne can start.

Magic stuff!

I have wonderful memories of a couple of trips with 3985 in Colorado and Utah - especially at night either in the dome or standing at a half open "stable" door - Hear that whistle blow!!

G-CPTN
2nd Sep 2013, 00:07
Is there not a trailer long-enough to carry it?

galaxy flyer
2nd Sep 2013, 02:04
Somebody posted a You Tube video of a steam loco climbing, I think Carlisle to Settle, it was amazing. Any links? Comment was about the amount of shoveling of coal on the footplate.

GF

500N
2nd Sep 2013, 02:14
I would say the road wouldn't be strong enough and the journey
over the mountains with that much weight ?

radeng
3rd Sep 2013, 14:50
The locomotive alone is supposedly 340 tons, but I cannot find out if that is in working order or empty. Even empty, a bit much for road haulage.....

That restoration is going to be a pretty massive and expensive job......

Sunnyjohn
3rd Sep 2013, 18:09
I hope I live long enough to see it. 'Big Boy' has always fascinated me.

west lakes
3rd Sep 2013, 19:18
Here we go

Classic Collector's Series: Union Pacific Big Boys - YouTube


And then there were these

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHQL0XW7pwQ

goudie
3rd Sep 2013, 19:59
One thing that intrigues me about these behemoths is how did they calculate the massive, absolute tonnage that they could pull, taking into account the gradients?

RedhillPhil
3rd Sep 2013, 20:29
Somebody posted a You Tube video of a steam loco climbing, I think Carlisle to Settle, it was amazing. Any links? Comment was about the amount of shoveling of coal on the footplate.

GF

Evening Star On The Settle & Carlisle - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=YXvF1F-3nTU#t=6)

Any good?

RedhillPhil
3rd Sep 2013, 22:25
The locomotive alone is supposedly 340 tons, but I cannot find out if that is in working order or empty. Even empty, a bit much for road haulage.....

That restoration is going to be a pretty massive and expensive job......

Locomotive 85' 4" long
Including tender 132' 9" long

Loco weight (empty) 324 ton
including tender 3/4 full 558 ton

Just for comparison the grate area is 150 square feet. The biggest that we produced was on the LMS "Duchesses" at 50 square feet. Think of an area a little more than 7 X 7 feet to be hand fired and covered in coal whilst the driver makes it disappear up the chimney.

vaqueroaero
4th Sep 2013, 02:28
Now I'm no mega train enthusiast, but having climbed all over the Big Boy, 4018, which has just been moved from the Dallas fairgrounds I have to admit this is pretty exciting stuff. Theses things are massive and anyone who has the slightest interest in heavy engineering will be truly awe inspired by them.

The water tank on the back holds 25,000 gallons. More than twice the size of my swimming pool.

Best of luck to them and I for one will make the trip to see it thundering down the line.

galaxy flyer
4th Sep 2013, 02:56
RedHillPhil,

Yup, that's it, thanks.

GF

vaqueroaero
4th Sep 2013, 03:57
I'll dig out some pictures of 4018. When we went you were able to get in the cab and 'drive' it.

Tankertrashnav
4th Sep 2013, 10:32
Think of an area a little more than 7 X 7 feet to be hand fired and covered in coal whilst the driver makes it disappear up the chimney.

To paraphrase Churchill, "pray explain to me, on one side of foolscap, the relationship between regulator and cylinder cutoff".

Seriously I've never quite understood how the driver achieves the balance between sufficient power to move the loco at the required speed in any given circumstance, without providing excessive power and causing slips or coal up the chimney as you say.

Can you have a go to explaining it in simple terms?

tony draper
4th Sep 2013, 10:36
Certainly a magnificent beast,don't think it would fit on our lines,might fit the tracks but I don't think it would fit through our tunnels and bridges.:)

MadsDad
4th Sep 2013, 10:51
Never saw Big Boy, much to my disappointment. Biggest thing I ever saw in the railway engine type thing was a 'Norfolk and Western' 2-8-8-2 number 2156, at St. Louis Transport Museum (they've got a Big Boy there now apparently, but this was before it arrived). Huge thing but in such a bad condition then (I'm talking 30 years ago) that it was enough to make you cry - rust holes everywhere, the cylinder covers looked more like lace than steel).

(Some pictures of it here:- https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=norfolk+and+western+2156&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=5AAnUveeKMqp0AXu2IDQAQ&ved=0CDcQsAQ&biw=1024&bih=601 )
(https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=norfolk+and+western+2156&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=5AAnUveeKMqp0AXu2IDQAQ&ved=0CDcQsAQ&biw=1024&bih=601)

Dorfer
4th Sep 2013, 11:30
Have said this before and don't know if it is true, but I think that the UP Bigboy has the most tractive force of any land conveyance. :)

radeng
4th Sep 2013, 14:24
Goudie,

According to the late Professor Tuplin, the maximum tractive effort at the start of wheel slip for a steam locomotive is about 3.3 times the adhesion weight for a dry and grease free rail. In practice because of wheel slip, it was usual to use less - the GW Kings for example had tractive effort just over a quarter of the adhesion weight. Another factor that comes in on locos without trailing wheels (i.e. under the firebox) is the weight transfer onto the rear drivers when starting, which increases adhesion: this is partly the explanation of why Pendennis Castle was so smart in getting away from Kings Cross in the 1925 locomotive exchanges. Pacific locos could be very bad on starting because the weight transfers to the pony truck. From memory, the effective load goes up by the cotangent of the gradient, and the load must include the all up weight of the locomotive.

Another factor is the train couplings. The old British loose coupled goods usually picked up the couplings more or less one by one: occasionally, a trick might be used of pushing back against the brake van until all the buffers were compressed, and then using the stored energy in the buffer springs to get a push to start. The Gould coupler used in the US has rather more play in it than the UK version (the buckeye) so there was a degree of picking up the load there in small jumps rather than one almighty heave, although that wouldn't make a lot of difference except on a long train.

TTN,

Optimum cylinder efficiency is at about 25% cut off, i.e. steam is admitted for 25% of the time and then expands, pushing the piston. In doing so, both pressure and temperature fall by Boyle's Law. For starting, a higher cut off is used but you can be pushing the TE/adhesion weight ratio even then with a bad rail: that's when sanding is useful. A bad rail can cause braking problems, too, and of course, the famous 'leaves on the line' can really screw up adhesion. That is not a new phenomena - was known in the century before last! Very light Scotch mist is also supposed to be a good lubricant! However, you can even get wheel slip with regulator closed - one cause of bad riding is if the driving wheels on one side wear a bit more than on the other causing a oscillation as the loco tries to slew across the track and then flange pressure bounces it back again. So the driver will use a combination of steam pressure (the regulator) and cut off that meets the need of the moment. In theory, early cut off and full open regulator is the most efficient, although tests on the Southern in the 1930's with King Arthur class locos showed little real difference. In a non-superheat loco, the use of late cut off an partly closed regulator can have advantages in drying the steam by wire drawing. Cut off indicators were rarely accurate any way, and some locos, such as the Great Northern Ivatt Atlantics had so many joints and pivots in the reversing gear that the driver would start in full gear, then shut the regulator, and heave (putting a foot against the column!) the lever to somewhere convenient and then drive on the regulator. Trying to move the lever with steam on would generally have it ripped out of his hands into full gear whether he liked it or not, and quite likely take half or more of the fire up the chimney.

Once the train is on the move, the amount of tractive effort isn't that high unless there's a gradient involved: Churchward aimed at 2 tons of drawbar pull at 70mph, and got that from a 60 odd ton loco. There are various formula for train resistance, the usual one used being Johansson's, although how well that applies with modern rolling stock, I don't know. I have heard drivers refer to BR Mark 1 rolling stock with commonwealth bogies as 'having all modern retarders'.....

goudie
4th Sep 2013, 15:10
Phew! Thanks radeng:ok:

AtomKraft
4th Sep 2013, 22:48
Who says diesels have no soul?
I love the old steamies....but.

37419 COLD START - YouTube

Tankertrashnav
4th Sep 2013, 22:50
And me, thanks :ok:

vaqueroaero
5th Sep 2013, 02:50
4018 at the Dallas Fairgrounds. It was moved a couple of weeks ago to a new facility a few miles away.

Ready to be moved. Everything else was gone and it was sitting waiting.

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e81/Vaqueroaero/CIMG3999_zps8ada7101.jpg (http://s37.photobucket.com/user/Vaqueroaero/media/CIMG3999_zps8ada7101.jpg.html)

From a few years ago.

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e81/Vaqueroaero/CIMG2136_zps64225807.jpg (http://s37.photobucket.com/user/Vaqueroaero/media/CIMG2136_zps64225807.jpg.html)

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e81/Vaqueroaero/CIMG2118_zps2e1713b9.jpg (http://s37.photobucket.com/user/Vaqueroaero/media/CIMG2118_zps2e1713b9.jpg.html)

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e81/Vaqueroaero/CIMG2117_zpsa436387b.jpg (http://s37.photobucket.com/user/Vaqueroaero/media/CIMG2117_zpsa436387b.jpg.html)

Stuck my camera in the firebox and pressed the shutter.

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e81/Vaqueroaero/CIMG2111_zps22eccfc2.jpg (http://s37.photobucket.com/user/Vaqueroaero/media/CIMG2111_zps22eccfc2.jpg.html)

G-CPTN
14th Sep 2013, 23:44
BBC News - Heads of the Valleys steam train heritage re-lived (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-24085592)

GeorgEGNT
14th Sep 2013, 23:56
On the bucket list to actually see one in the flesh. Closest in terms of size that I've actually seen is the Chinese KF7 at the NRM. Even the KF7 is awesome when stood next to it. Still remember the first time I set eyes on it!

http://fc01.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2013/182/b/d/chinese_4_8_4_kf7_by_rlkitterman-d574gxj.jpg

I wish them luck with the project, would certainly be impressive to see.

Aire de Drome
18th Sep 2013, 17:27
Fantastic Loco. My Dad used to drive the 9F (nicknamed 'Spaceships'), and its predecessor, 8F (WD). Don't know if he drove Black Prince, but as a reminder my wife bought me a print of David Shephard's 'On Shed'. Superb. David later purchased the engine and gave it its name. I think it's on loan at the Poppy Line in Norfolk. Thanks for all the piccies.

flying lid
18th Sep 2013, 17:37
If your ever in Sacramento visit the California State Railway Museum. In there is a "Cab Forward", a huge ugly bugger, back to front, an oil burner of course, or the fireman would have a hard time !!. Not as big as a Big Boy, but dam close !!.

Nice museum in Nevada also, the Nevada State Railway Museum in Carson City. Had a go on a hand trolley there - bloody hard work !!!

http://www.pacificariptide.com/.a/6a00d8341c795b53ef017c34c17fee970b-800wi

radeng
18th Sep 2013, 18:30
I wasn't at all impressed with the Sacramento museum, other than with the cab forward. It seemed to me to be aimed mainly at children, and there was nobody with any technical knowledge the day I was there.

Now the B & O museum in Baltimore is another thing altogether.........Especially when they found that I was from Swindon, home of the Great Western Railway! The museum of the Durango and Silverton is very good too, although it is naturally very specialised.

sisemen
18th Sep 2013, 20:51
I've said it before, and I'll say it again - the way that the North American museums have dealt with the two A4s that are now over in the UK should preclude them having them back.

radeng
18th Sep 2013, 23:23
Sisemen,

It is true to say that the way they have neglected some of their own locos is just as bad. But they aren't the only ones, by any means. Butlins, for example?

TorqueOfTheDevil
28th Sep 2013, 00:05
the way that the North American museums have dealt with the two A4s that are now over in the UK should preclude them having them back.

Hmmm. Apart from the fact that the Americans looked after their A4 considerably better than the Canadians (perhaps not to the gold standard, but it's only fair to make the distinction), my other query about your viewpoint is this: had the North American museums not takenpreserved these two A4s, can you guarantee that the two locos would have survived at all? Plenty of other 'sacred cows' went to the scrapman in the 1960s...

dat581
28th Sep 2013, 03:31
Commonwealth of Australia went to the scrap heap because nobody would pay to have her shipped out to Oz. It's a crying shame as we have some scenic lines radiating out of Sydney and our silly 70mph speed limits would be no problem. :(

radeng
28th Sep 2013, 14:02
Surprising that 6 out of 34 have survived, while only one A3, one A2 and no A1s did. Plus I don't know how many Castles......

innuendo
28th Sep 2013, 19:36
Perhaps not too relevant to the type in discussion but a friend of mine has a couple of photos of the "Royal Hudson" on his Zenfolio site. The Royal Hudson was active from North Vancouver up Howe Sound towards Whistler a few years ago. They had a dinner outing where you went along the North Shore and along Howe Sound and back to North Vancouver while dinner was served in the dining car.
Not sure of the status of the locomotive these days but I like Tony's pictures of the train on a trestle in West Van.
Tony Markle | Royal Hudson 2860 (http://tonymarkle.zenfolio.com/p283104826)
I am presuming he will not mind the link as he has them open in his Zenfolio account.

radeng
28th Sep 2013, 22:45
Old locos, old trains, old railways, old aeroplanes, old ships, and even old cars/buses/lorries (US trucks)/ coaches - they should be preserved and to my mind, money spent on preserving them is better used than that wasted on 'overseas aid', which mostly means African dictators' Swiss bank accounts..