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Krystal n chips
28th Aug 2013, 17:58
One of the 20th centuries most iconic speeches....and, strangely, or not so strangely really, not one mention on here.

Short Version of I Have A Dream Speech - YouTube

Until now.

A man whose values I genuinely admire. :ok:

Still some way to go though....sadly !

rgbrock1
28th Aug 2013, 18:04
One of the reasons why it's not been mentioned anywhere in PPRuNe, not until now anyway, is because we Americans have been having this little tidbit rammed down our throats on a daily basis for the past week or so by various forms of the media.

As important and historic as Dr. King's speech was there's one related aspect which kind of proves irksome to me.

Why is there no white march on Washington commemorating the speech of Thomas Jefferson on the floor of the Continental Congress urging passage of the Declaration of Independence?

Hmmm? Why is that?

SpringHeeledJack
28th Aug 2013, 18:05
The dream has turned into a nightmare for many in America, Detroit being the poster child. Still the present leader has a Nobel Peace prize, so things are moving forward.....:hmm:



SHJ

500N
28th Aug 2013, 18:12
Krystal

I knew it was today, for the same reason RGB said, one little black person
wants to remind everyone on a continuous basis of it.

BenThere
28th Aug 2013, 18:12
MLK, who I respected, was a Republican then and would be a Republican now. His arguments were irrefutable by people with conscience, and that's why he ultimately won. I read his words and can only agree, kinda like Jesus.

The civil rights movement he powered over the line, however, has become a corrupt, entitlement-crazy, confrontational haven for low-life rent seekers. I'd give all for the likes of MLK, less than nothing for the Maxine Waters, Clyburn, Jackson-Lee, Sharpton and Jesse Jr and Sr class of bullies pretending to carry his torch today.

Capetonian
28th Aug 2013, 18:17
Because his speech has been misrepresented and its true meaning distorted by the do-gooders of the world, he has probably done more harm than good.

In reality, insignificant and forgettable. If a white man had made a similar speech, he would have been labelled racist, a nutter, and forgotten.

https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQxoFx1nuW2SILo5xn6NGHGPsCdGJuWE3XZpT2in3S nNw8oaliJ

rgbrock1
28th Aug 2013, 18:28
Or, as a former colleague used to tell me (IF I listened):

'Jefferson was nothing other than a rich white man who enslaved our people. He was a thug and nothing more. That other honky Washington was the same. If they was alive today our people would have taken care of them.'

When I tried explaining the reasons behind owning slaves back then, and the fact that most slave sellers were themselves black, I was labeled a racist also.

Oh well.

con-pilot
28th Aug 2013, 18:38
I was 16 years old when King gave his speech, to me at the time it was awe inspiring. Still is really.

I had not been living back in the US all that long back then and the race issues were very confusing to me, having been raised on Air Force Bases that were totally integrated. I one of my best friends was black, but to be completely and totally honest, I could not understand what the problem was.

My father flew with black pilots and a good friend of his was Chappie James, and he and his family came to our house and we to his. Chappie James eventually made the rank of General (four stars) before tragically dieing of cancer way before his time. A tremendous loss to the nation. Oh, for those that do not know this, General James was black.

When we moved to Tinker AFB, in Oklahoma City, I was shocked to find out that my black friends could not go to the same school as I. That was when I started studying the race problem in the US. So shortly later, if there was a local civil rights march, I was one of those white faces in the sea of black faces.

My mother, being from the South, was not all that happy about what I was doing, but she could not say much because of my father, who was openly proud of my ideas.

To me the most impressive thing about the "I have dream" speech, is that he discarded the prepared speech and ad-libed the "I have a dream" speech. I didn't find that out until many, many years later.

Now, about today's 50 year celebration of the "I have a dream speech". Not surprisingly, there is not a single Republican on steps of the Lincoln Memorial. Which I find very ironic as Lincoln was a Republican and if not for the Republican Party, Republican Senators and Congressmen, the Civil Rights Act of 1964, would have never passed.

That is why Dr. Martin Luther King was a registered Republican.

West Coast
28th Aug 2013, 18:44
Been watching a number of the speeches today,almost as if the same speechwriter wrote them all. The applause was predictable, usually at the inference that whitey is still holding the black man down. More eloquent, but a common theme nonetheless. One exception in part was President Clinton. A notable part of his speech said enough of the excuses, get to work and make something of yourself. The polite applause afforded other parts of the speech seemed muted with this comment.

BenThere
28th Aug 2013, 18:47
So why did black America switch so overwhelmingly from Republican to Democrat? Just for the free lunch?

Democrat rule in black majority districts, cities and constituencies have brought nothing but blight, crime, social destruction and general misery. Why is there no rebelion against that?

con-pilot
28th Aug 2013, 18:48
President Clinton. A notable part of his speech said enough of the excuses, get to work and make something of yourself.

Yes, one thing that Bill Clinton is doing, is that he has discovered he can pretty well say what he wants to. Now he is no Prince Phillip, but by God he starting to make a run for that type of reputation. :p

500N
28th Aug 2013, 18:50
"A notable part of his speech said enough of the excuses,
get to work and make something of yourself."

I was thinking along the same lines earlier.

When you have to legislate to improve a culture's "lot",
what hope have they if they can't get up and going without help ?

I know, you could list a whole heap of examples of those who have
but as a group ?

I just look at groups here in Aus who came and started with nothing,
no money, no hope (having come from war torn Europe) yet made
huge gains. I am talking Greeks, Italians, Maltese etc. All of it through
their OWN hard work.

rgbrock1
28th Aug 2013, 18:55
500N wrote:

When you have to legislate to improve a culture's "lot",
what hope have they if they can't get up and going without help ?

Um, maybe because many of them don't want to get up and going? (with or without help)

con-pilot
28th Aug 2013, 18:57
So why did black America switch so overwhelmingly from Republican to Democrat? Just for the free lunch?


I have no answer to that. But the change started after LBJ and his
'Great Society' program was made the law of the land.

Sadly I have lost track of all of my fellow Air Force brats I grew up with, just goes with having parents in the military I guess, so I can't ask my black, or white for that matter, friends from my early years.

I dated a black girl when we were at the University of Oklahoma, can't remember her name now. Oh, the word 'dating' is not quite correct, we were both Air Force brats, good friends and hung around with each other. We did get some strange looks, but nothing ever happened. Course me being the size I was back then, may have had something to do with that. :p

rgbrock1
28th Aug 2013, 19:01
con-pilot bragged:

Course me being the size I was back then, may have had something to do with that. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/tongue.gif

Why con, have you shrunk in size? :}:}:}

BenThere
28th Aug 2013, 19:06
I went out with a black girl named Rose in 1970 at OU. She was from Central America. Same chick, you think?

con-pilot
28th Aug 2013, 20:27
Why con, have you shrunk in size?

Uh, no. Back in my university days I was 6'2" and 200 pounds, with very little fat. In fact, I was asked to try out for the football team, but all I had to do was show them my left leg and never heard another word about such a silly idea. Which is probably one reason I'm still able walk today.

Today I'm 6'5" and 220, not all that much muscle. :(


But much better now than I was a few years go when I weighed over 250 and no muscles. :p

Ben

I went out with a black girl named Rose in 1970 at OU. She was from Central America. Same chick, you think?


No, I don't think so. She was the daughter of a Air Force Lt. Colonel and she graduated in 1967, I was 1970, should have been 69, but I screwed off one semester. So she would have been long gone by 1970. She was two years ahead of me.

She left the state right after she graduated and I lost track of her.

Back when I was a military brat, it was us (black, white, brown, tan, what ever) against them, them being civilian kids. :p

Dushan
28th Aug 2013, 20:41
To me the most impressive thing about the "I have dream" speech, is that he discarded the prepared speech and ad-libed the "I have a dream" speech. I didn't find that out until many, many years later.

They didn't have a teleprompter then?

con-pilot
28th Aug 2013, 21:14
They didn't have a teleprompter then?

Nope, back then Obama would have to have actually read the speech from a paper. :p

I think the first president that used the Teleprompter, as we know it today, was Reagan during the last part of his second term, but seldom used it, preferring to ad lib and use his memory.

500N
28th Aug 2013, 21:20
I just saw a brief clip of Obama today giving his speech.

I didn't see it all but it looked like
1. He wasn't behind any bullet proof glass
2. He had notes, not a teleprompter.


Just going to Google to see the photos.

tony draper
28th Aug 2013, 21:22
Of course it could be argued that the original nailed something to a door that changed the world a great deal more than his later namesake.
Think, no Pilgrim Fathers,they would have probably all been sat on a pile of kindling and ignited.
:rolleyes:

Mr Chips
28th Aug 2013, 21:29
One of the 20th centuries most iconic speeches....and, strangely, or not so strangely really, not one mention on here.
and in one phrase you manage to cheapen the iconic speech to score some kind of cheap point.

That's quite sad really.

con-pilot
28th Aug 2013, 21:47
One of the 20th centuries most iconic speeches....and, strangely, or not so strangely really, not one mention on here.


This June 6th was the 69th anniversary of the D-Day invasion at Normandy, that resulted in the defeat of Hitler's Germany.* One of the most iconic dates in history, the most significant date in the 20th Century.

I don't recall you starting a thread about that.




* Yes, yes with the Soviet Union on the Eastern Front.

perthsaint
28th Aug 2013, 22:08
The most significant date in the 20th Century?

It isn't even the most significant date of 1944.

pigboat
28th Aug 2013, 22:19
It isn't even the most significant date of 1944.
I guess you had to be there. My old man was and he thought it was pretty fcuking important. Or at least important enough that it would be dismissed by a throw away line like that. :mad:

perthsaint
28th Aug 2013, 22:31
My grandfather was there too, pigboat.

It was important to him too. But we have perspective that they didnt.

Nick Riviera
28th Aug 2013, 22:39
A man whose values I genuinely admire.

The values that led him to plagiarise his doctoral thesis and commit serial adultery?

Cacophonix
28th Aug 2013, 22:45
Nick Riveria

It is a pussy of a moniker...!

What say you pussy...?

Caco

Edited to say or Riv... whatever your farking moniker is... pussy.

Nick Riviera
28th Aug 2013, 22:49
First drink?

Cacophonix
28th Aug 2013, 22:51
Nope!

You wanna say this kind of stuff and you can meet me in the flesh...

Caco

Nick Riviera
28th Aug 2013, 22:58
I'm off to bed now. Hope I can sleep with the fear you have instilled in me. Best leave the light on.

Cacophonix
28th Aug 2013, 23:01
Mate I don't want to frighten you....;)

Your shit is manifest though...

Caco

con-pilot
28th Aug 2013, 23:07
There is always one idiot out there Caco, just ignore him.

It was important to him too. But we have perspective that they didnt.

That is why it is called history you dolt. Name the date in 1944 that had more significance?

Cacophonix
28th Aug 2013, 23:15
Apologies Con

I just lost it there for a moment...

As always you are gentleman and a man worth listening to.

I must admit that I don't like Mr Riv..'s (whatever his name is) shit...

Caco

G-CPTN
28th Aug 2013, 23:33
Name the date in 1944 that had more significance?
For me, 15th July 1944 was pretty significant.

Shame that I cannot remember it . . .

500N
28th Aug 2013, 23:40
Caco

"Nick Riveria" reminds me of some shytehole hotel in Las Vegas.

Falls into the same category as Krystal & Chips :O

Cacophonix
28th Aug 2013, 23:47
500N

There is revving folk and there is bullshit. I have crossed the line myself once or twice and I am genuinely sorry for that... it doesn't make me proud or a clever guy.

Time for Krystal and the this Riv.. (whatever his name is) to shut it...

Caco

500N
28th Aug 2013, 23:51
Well, it was your "pussy" comment that made me laugh
because i kept calling Krystal "she" or "her" and someone
sent me a PM saying it was actually a "he" :O

But yes, you are not the only one who has crossed the line
but hey, if it's too hot in the kitchen, get out of the way.
I said on the other thread, if I can't hold my own verbally
with anyone on here I shouldn't be posting, be it banter,
a direct personal attack or whatever it is posted.

I often say to people HTFU :O


Edit
And the Riviera is actually a crap hotel in LV,
I made the mistake of staying there once !

Cacophonix
29th Aug 2013, 00:01
said on the other thread, if I can't hold my own verbally
with anyone on here I shouldn't be posting, be it banter,
a direct personal attack or whatever it is posted.

You are right of course. I am always happy to be as nice as I can in person and I don't think I am a bad guy but in the real world if somebody wants to dig well, hell, I'll dig right back... (we are all real people after all)...

Best

Caco

con-pilot
29th Aug 2013, 00:25
Shame that I cannot remember it . . .

Very possibly the day you were born? ;)

G-CPTN
29th Aug 2013, 00:42
Very possibly the day you were born?
Indeed!

More 1944 events:- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1944

con-pilot
29th Aug 2013, 01:44
Indeed!


Well happy belated birthday. :p

But, just remember, I'll always be younger. ;)

Krystal n chips
29th Aug 2013, 04:21
One post, so many responses.

The content of many only served to confirm how thin the veneer is in many cases as to what really lies beneath the surface.

There was also some confusion, sadly, it seems as to the fact I was referring to the speech, the iconic status of the speech and who made it.....and why.

The date is irrelevant therefore.

The posts that were of a more personal nature ?.....well I am not averse to cooking, some of you however, prefer to eat out it seems.

This may be too cryptic for many....feel free to PM a friend on here if so. Collectively, you should be able to arrive at an understanding.....there again.

On the other hand, a glimmer of hope !.....

Capedronian... " In reality, insignificant and forgettable "

Apart from demonstrating, as always, your need for attention ( entertaining to read, albeit there is really no need to offer further insights into your personality...no really, there isn't...but do carry on please ) I am bemused as to the fact you posted.....on a thread I started...one might surmise that I have been downgraded !....

Nick Riviera
29th Aug 2013, 06:53
Dear oh dear, so many knickers in a twist in one thread. Although there was much to admire about MLK, he was no paragon of virtue. A right wing white guy would never be given a free pass on these items by the guilt ridden white left but MLK is allowed his foibles. As others have stated there are many more significant historical anniversaries that go by unremarked upon on this board so trying to score cheap points by referring to this particular date is very poor.

The usual suspects line up to pass their judgement (surprised at you though, Con) and even have the temerity to mock my username. Oh, the humanity!

Contrary to my previous posting, I shan't be losing any sleep.

500N
29th Aug 2013, 06:58
"Contrary to my previous posting, I shan't be losing any sleep."


That's OK, a bit of water boarding and severe sleep deprivation
will sort you out !!!

Just don't go nuts on me like one person did :O

rgbrock1
29th Aug 2013, 13:14
I'm not quite sure I understand the outrage over Nick Riviera's initial post.

It is well known that Dr. King performed some "creativity" with his thesis and it is also well known that he was a "womanizer".

Perhaps it was a bit insensitive to make such a post in a thread acknowledging the date of his speech but facts remain facts.

I'm sure if a thread was started, say, about JFK and his "ich bin ein Berliner" speech his womanizing would eventually be mentioned.

Solid Rust Twotter
29th Aug 2013, 15:28
I'm reliably informed the fairer sex are quite fond of pastry, so why not?

Capetonian
29th Aug 2013, 18:21
K&C :
Capedronian... " In reality, insignificant and forgettable "

Apart from demonstrating, as always, your need for attention ( entertaining to read, albeit there is really no need to offer further insights into your personality...no really, there isn't...but do carry on please ) I am bemused as to the fact you posted.....on a thread I started...one might surmise that I have been downgraded !....

I can assure you that you remain on my ignore list because your utterings are either meaningless, attempts to be insulting, or simply excruciatingly valueless. Unfortunately the ignore list does not apply to the morning updates which is where I see your feeble and puerile attempts at humour in deriding other peoples' usernames on the forum.

It says more about you than it does about those you attempt to deride. Carry on!

chuks
30th Aug 2013, 07:23
But for his death at the hands of a white assassin, it would not be "Doctor" King, not officially anyway, since the normal procedure is for the award of a PhD to be withdrawn upon a finding of plagiarism. Clear evidence of plagiarism was found in King's doctoral thesis, but because of his status and his accomplishments, his PhD was not withdrawn. That withdrawal would be a tremendously unpopular move, of course, letting set standards in academia override whatever popularity a public figure might enjoy, especially among the so-called minority groups in American society.

Part of the problem, as with Bob Dylan's plagiarism, is that very different standards apply to a speech, a sermon, or a song, than to a doctoral thesis or a painting.

One might, for example, use the concept that "no man is an island" in a speech without citing the original author, but in an academic paper it might better appear at first use as something like, "as John Donne first stated in...." That way, it's being made clear that the author of the paper is not claiming to be the originator of the idea, that it was originated by someone else.

King was caught red-handed taking large chunks of material written by others and incorporating them in his doctoral thesis, and that is plagiarism, a big no-no in academic terms. Doing the same thing with a speech is okay, though, sort of....

A lesser idol of the sandal-wearing set, Bob Dylan, started young by ripping off other sources, back when he was just little Bobby Zimmerman of Hibbing, Minnesota, and has enjoyed great success with that. Problems have come, though, by his copying of original, copyright photographic images that he has presented as original oil paintings, much as he reworked old traditional folks songs such as "Joe Hill" into something he presented as his original work.

In both cases, that of Dr. King and of Bobby Zimmerman, there seems to have been a slopping over of what is done and tolerated in one area, a sort of free borrowing of uncredited work by others, into another area where that is simply a wrong thing to do. Dr. King has benefited from our modern version of "reverse racism" to a certain extent, I think, but then he did a lot of good in his time, plus he paid for that with his life. (Imagine, if you will, someone like George Wallace being caught in the same way, having plagiarized a thesis. Do you think he would have been allowed to get away with that? Yet the same standards should apply to both.)

A flagrant example of I mean by "reverse racism": President Obama identified with Trayvon Martin in racial terms, saying that if he had a son, that son would look like Martin, but then forgot to tell us that his imaginary son might also look like one of those blacks who shot that white guy in the back. So, this little black thug, Martin, conveniently dead, so unlikely to be caught mugging any grannies, gets the right hand of the President of the USA extended in benediction on behalf of his race, even though that might influence an on-going legal process, yet we are asked to ignore the race of three other blacks who stand accused in turn of a very low crime, one with no possible explanation as self-defense.