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i_thought_of_it
28th Aug 2013, 11:33
Been working on this project for 5 years. Patent applications now filed in 6 countries.

I have been working through Patent Attorneys, however they don't give advice as to the next step.

I do have ideas of course and been given advice also. Dragons den included.

Any ppruners know the best way to get marketing and manufacturing advice and the possibilities of financial backing, without totally selling myself out.

The invention has now been "protected" to a certain extent. The hard part is to come it seems and I don't want to screw up.

Any advice would be gratefully accepted. PM me if you wish.

Thanks for reading.

lomapaseo
28th Aug 2013, 13:55
No Problem in helping but first we will have to review your patent in detail to judge for ourselves.

Please post relevant sketches, claims, etc. on this board. This will get buy those pesky non-disclosure agreements while at the same time speeding up the entrance of your ideas into the market place under the JetBlast seal of approval.

Alloa Akbar
28th Aug 2013, 14:00
Check your PM's

vulcanised
28th Aug 2013, 14:27
Don't try discussing your ideas with a bunch of strangers.

They don't come any stranger than those on here. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wink2.gif

i_thought_of_it
28th Aug 2013, 14:40
Thanks for the replies. Keep 'em coming as they can only improve!!!:D:D:D

radeng
28th Aug 2013, 14:53
A patent is a licence to give lots of money to lawyers, especially if you ever need to enforce it. If you have got a valid patent in Germany, it will be pretty fool proof - that's the hardest place, in my experience, to get one. (23 applications, 16 granted and only 1 still valid because of either expiry or ceasing to pay the annual fee). Two basic ways to exploit:

1. See if someone in the field already wants to take out a licence - approach manufacturers.

2. Write an article without giving too much away and get it published in a magazine specialising in the field, saying the invention could be licenced.

I never had to do that, because my employer 'bought' the patent rights. For literally $1 ( postal order for 82p!) in one case and after the company had changed hands several times, ending up as $5,000 after grant of the patent.

Good luck with it.....

Alloa Akbar
28th Aug 2013, 16:01
Good point Radeng..

In essence, either sell and idea and make some money before you lose your own, or if you fully develop a product - Keep hold of it and sell the licence :ok:

sitigeltfel
28th Aug 2013, 16:18
Invented, patents applied for, where to next?Spend the next few years fighting Chinese knock-offs?

mikedreamer787
29th Aug 2013, 05:49
What'd you invent ITOI?

If its a pill to undumb natural blondes
you'll instantly become a squillionaire
overnight.

Or an abject failure in some areas... :E

i_thought_of_it
29th Aug 2013, 08:29
Thanks all for the responses.

Mike, no nothing for blondes. In my experience, once they start thinking straight, they are dangerous.

What I have worked out is to get an engine to run on sea water. Not sure if it will catch on though. Others will have to decide.

ExXB
29th Aug 2013, 09:18
Geneva Inventions Fair. (http://www.inventions-geneva.ch/cgi-bin/gb-exposants.php)

Alloa Akbar
29th Aug 2013, 10:01
Sounds like a radical concept.. I can't see Shell or Exxon being too stoked about that idea!! You will be popular with governments though.. Once they work out a rate of tax for sea water!! :ok:

Incidentally, what size of Engine are you talking about? Automotive? Marine Large? Static Power Generators?

i_thought_of_it
29th Aug 2013, 10:31
Classified.

In all seriousness, there was a person in the Southern Hemisphere, who did get an engine to run on water. That is a fact. However he and the prototype(s), drawings and all trace of him, disappeared off the face of the earth before word spread too far. "Killed off"? I think so.

My invention is not as radical as that of course but it could make a difference, to well entrenched train of thought.

Solid Rust Twotter
29th Aug 2013, 12:13
Runs on sea water? I have one of those. It also runs on fresh water and on land, not to mention indoors and outdoors.


Seriously, the only way you're going to make any money is selling the idea or developing it yourself. Patents just cost money and achieve little in the way of real protection.

SpringHeeledJack
29th Aug 2013, 12:28
From the distant and cowardly viewpoint of never having taken any idea further than that, an idea, it would seem to me that the whole process is fraught with hurdles that are designed to trip up and/or stress the inventor to an early grave and favours the bigger players :hmm: I would repeat what has been said, try to sell it to someone who can and will take it further. Inventions are like babies and it must be gut wrenching to have to hand it off to someone else to raise after all the hard work, but if it's an application that will have far reaching implications it might be wise to have a big bruiser on your side. Maybe a buyout and residuals for the rest of your life would allow time to invent more stuff ? Good luck!



SHJ

i_thought_of_it
29th Aug 2013, 12:49
Twotter,

"It also runs on fresh water and on land, not to mention indoors and outdoors". you have blown my cover! I've been rumbled! :}

Agree with what has been said re patents and the big boys on side.

Alloa Akbar
29th Aug 2013, 12:50
If you are going to develop a product yourself, you need to be sure you have the money available to develop and then productionise your idea.. If not, might be better selling the concept. Its all about investment and return at the end of the day, which one suits best?

On the subject of engines running on water, didn't Honda design an engine which ran on Hydrogen and produced water as a waste product? The Clarity I believe it was called?

Ovation
29th Aug 2013, 13:19
You need to be very careful if your invention is (or could be) valuable. In the process of exploiting your patent, you will need to reveal the knowhow to others who might exploit it themselves without giving you any benefit.

To explain, I had a USA, UK and Australian patent back in 1991 that was to do with controlling a particular type of belt conveyor. Within 6 months of going to market in Australia I had two patent infringements from my only two competitors. Those were resolved in my favor but I then tried to licence my patent with one of the largest conveyor manufacturers in the USA, up to and including serious discussions. Giving them a licence would have returned a royalty of about 1.5K per machine, and the US company would sell around 600-800 units per year.

Then everything went quiet, no returned calls, no response to faxes (it was early 90's). I then found out from a contact in the States they'd done a clever workaround based entirely on my patent but carefully avoiding infringment. I was younger and naive then, and made 2 major errors. My patent attorney had not worded the patent application as well as it could have been - that flaw gave the USA company the opportunity to do a work-around, and I had trusted them and revealed a lot of the know-how to make it all come together.

So if you're talking to anyone, get them to commit to a confidentiality and no-compete agreement. If they won't sign, walk away. I eventually did exploit the USA patent with a licence agreement to another manufacturer, and did OK but nowhere near as well if I'd been able to collect royalties for 600-800 copies a year. My pprune persona could have been Citation instead of Ovation.

As someone far wiser than I said, all a patent does is give you the right to sue (somebody for infringement). If you are David and they are Goliath don't even waste your time thinking about it. They'll lawyer up and you'll lose double. Once for the cost of fighting an infringement, and twice because you'll be totally distracted from whatever real business you're in.

mixture
29th Aug 2013, 13:20
I do have ideas of course and been given advice also. Dragons den included.

Hang on a second ? You've been on Dragons Den and got no bites ?

You're not one of those guys they tell in no uncertain terms to get a grip and take another long hard look at what they're trying to sell as an invention are you?

How much money have you poured into this project already ?

mixture
29th Aug 2013, 13:23
As someone far wiser than I said, all a patent does is give you the right to sue (somebody for infringement).

Well that person wasn't very wise.

A patent also gives you an asset you can license and sell.

M.Mouse
29th Aug 2013, 13:23
In all seriousness, there was a person in the Southern Hemisphere, who did get an engine to run on water. That is a fact. However he and the prototype(s), drawings and all trace of him, disappeared off the face of the earth before word spread too far. "Killed off"? I think so.

You surely don't believe that old urban legend?

Water-fuelled car - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water-fuelled_car)

lomapaseo
29th Aug 2013, 13:39
So if you're talking to anyone, get them to commit to a confidentiality and no-compete agreement. If they won't sign, walk away. I eventually

In my experience, I've had to review unsolicited offers of new ideas under the protection of a non-disclosure agreement. In both cases I declined to sign such an agreement and turned the solicitation down.

The reason:

If I had signed and then the review turned out to be a pie-in-the-sky claim, I would then possibly be encumbered in ever designing my own ideas in the future because of some clause in the agreement.

In my view best to ignore ideas from outside that don't already have an established marketing interest.

i_thought_of_it
29th Aug 2013, 14:08
Mixture

No I was advised to contact Dragons Den. Don't really want to put myself thought that to be honest, being an introvert.

dead_pan
29th Aug 2013, 15:21
NDAs are a waste of time for lone inventors, as to be honest are patents. You neither have the time or monies to pursue anyone who infringes or breaks an agreement. Maybe better to keep things secret and see if you can get it commercialized somehow e.g. by getting sub-components manufactured separately, then either try to take it to market yourself or approach someone to sound them out if they would be prepared to take it on. If someone does develop your invention independently, depending where you live you can always politely inform them that you hold priority and ask them for a license (providing you have proof, although I'm sure a friendly solicitor could be persuaded to notarize your idea).

IMHO brands are the thing to build, if you can, backed by trademarks, domain names etc. Cheaper and easier to do.

500N
29th Aug 2013, 15:25
"IMHO brands are the thing to build, if you can, backed by trademarks, domain names etc. Cheaper and easier to do."

+ 1

i_thought_of_it
29th Aug 2013, 15:54
mouse

Just because it is not in the encyclopaedia's does not mean the knowledge is not available.

I suspect you would be the sort of person that believes all that you digest in the media.

radeng
29th Aug 2013, 17:48
My only current patent came about when we talking with an Israeli company about development of an integrated circuit chip for them. They had a requirement: I had the idea of how to meet the requirement, and did some proof of concept work. When informed that my employer was going to patent the idea, they said that they objected to my employer patenting the concept - for which a clause in the contract stated specifically my employer could. The objection was based on the fact that if we patented it, they couldn't take our chip design and have it copied and made elsewhere cheaper!

The Senior VP response was "And your point is?"

But it shows the pitfalls that there are around.....NDAs can be useful, but especially if it's a big customer, they will ignore them and respond to complaints with "OK, you don't want our business..."

Another problem is with patent agents who produce applications that even you cannot understand. After doing a few applications, you can learn the jargon and phrasing: do the input to the agent in their type of jargon and often the claim they send you to look at is much as you have written it.

A final difficulty is with US Patent Office where it often seems examiners have little knowledge of either the technology or English - even (or especially?) 'patent' English.

tj916
29th Aug 2013, 17:54
Quote:
In all seriousness, there was a person in the Southern Hemisphere, who did get an engine to run on water. That is a fact. However he and the prototype(s), drawings and all trace of him, disappeared off the face of the earth before word spread too far. "Killed off"? I think so.


Great book (fiction) by Ben Elton called Gridlock. Raises some issues and very funny.

G-CPTN
29th Aug 2013, 18:34
Trevor Baylis is an inventor.

He invented the wind-up radio.

He entered into an agreement to have it manufactured.

The manufacturers altered his design and froze him out.

He is now a poor man (ie not in any way rich).

Trevor Baylis: I've wound up broke despite inventions - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/9875026/Trevor-Baylis-Ive-wound-up-broke-despite-inventions.html)

fenland787
29th Aug 2013, 18:51
Patents are pretty much a total wast of time for an individual, mostly you won't be able to defend them and so many of them can be got round. If you've got a good idea then the best is get on and form a company and market it yourself, it ain't easy but can be done. There actually are sources of funding but be prepared to kiss a lot of toads and put up with large amounts of B**sh**t along the way until you find the right investor.

The 'exit strategy' is then, when it's going well, sell the company - often to a competitor - and move on. It kinda worked for me a couple of times anyway.