Who advises the media defence experts?

[OutlawPete]

Lovely picture today on page 9 of the Sun depicting a "Tornado GR4 with Storm shadow" on a feature which details potential British action against Syria.

The picture is actually of an F16, for those that don't read the paper (and I dont blame you!). Are those who advise journalists of the hardware that our forces have really that ignorant that they don't know the difference between British made and American aircraft? Laughable really!

[CoffmanStarter]

OP ... Judging by the peak of 500 "guests" (excluding members) on this forum last night around 21:00 Hrs ... I'll bet a quite a few journalists look for info here which then gets lost in translation in their quest to be the first to publish "something" :(

[Regie Mental]

Well considering the last edition of RAF News had a pic of a Wessex illustrating a SAR Sea King story, and a recent press release from Lossiemouth described participants in CQWI as 'GR4 Tornados' and 'T1 Hawks' is it any surprise civilian press can't get it right?

[Trim Stab]

Lovely picture today on page 9 of the Sun depicting a "Tornado GR4 with Storm shadow" on a feature which details potential British action against Syria.

The picture is actually of an F16, for those that don't read the paper (and I dont blame you!). Are those who advise journalists of the hardware that our forces have really that ignorant that they don't know the difference between British made and American aircraft? Laughable really!

Especially laughable as the Sun is now pay-walled (along with other Murdoch titles). The argument for pay-walling newspapers is that readers have to pay a premium for quality, well-researched articles!

[500N]

Outlaw Pete

I can't see the photo but

1. It's a plane ! (the word plane used intentionally)

2. It probably has a few clearly visible bombs hanging off it

3. It looks "warry" !

4. It looks good.

Therefore they have probably covered what the readers
of the Sun want and understand ;)

[anotherthing]

Therefore they have probably covered what the readers
of the Sun want...not quite 500N. They didn't photoshop a pic of 'Katrina, 19 from Middlesex' sitting in the cockpit with her norks hanging out...

[Pontius Navigator]

anotherthing, give them time, give them time.

In answer to the OP, the reporter or author probably gets an official brief or handout, bashes out the obligatory number of words and emails or phones it in (depending on circumstances). The Sub then tells the photo department I want a punchy photo of an aircraft to go with the XYZ article.

The archivists possibly aren't even told the aircraft type and simply pull what they think is the best, not previously used that week, photo, and bingo - cr^p.

[Courtney Mil]

Judging by the peak of 500 "guests" (excluding members) on this forum last night around 21:00 Hrs ... I'll bet a quite a few journalists look for info here which then gets lost in translation in their quest to be the first to publish "something"

Hmm Good point.

Anyway, I now have it on good authority that the UK has decided to commit to action in Syria. Preparations are now under way to send 8 F-35Bs, two Nimrods and a further 6 RAF Strike Eagles, to join the 4 already deployed, to the region. The aircraft are to be based at RAF Dhekelia in Cyprus and deployment is expected to start by Friday.

http://www.operations.mod.uk/telic/images/ops/tornado_storm_shadow.jpg
RAF Strike Eagle of 5 Squadron deployed to RAF Dhekelia last weekend preparing for operations over Syria.

[Party Animal]

It could be worse. I remember mid 80's when the Nimrod MPA force were busy with a major SAR event around the UK. BBC national news showed a photo of an E3 which we didn't actually have in the RAF inventory back then (but Nimrod MR2 = Nimrod AEW = photo of a big aircraft with a radar thingy on top) getting involved operating out of Kinross. Cue the large map of Scotland with an arrow pointing towards Fife! :D

[orgASMic]

Courtney, you're not far off. Having had the 'pleasure' of escorting and briefing several members of the media in Iraq, it is my experience that they dont really give a hoot about the technical detail as long as it looks good and gets published; PN's synopsis is about right. It is only the military (and the spotters) that get hot under the collar when the picture doesn't match the text or the manouevre described is physically impossible.
Even more frustrating is trying to get our message across, such as how well the markets were doing in Basra and how life was improving for local businesses, when the editorial agenda is aready set and they just want some 'facts' and on-location photos to go with the piece they have already drafted. The only journalist who seemed genuinely interested in our side of the story was Caroline Wyatt of the BBC. She and her crew were always a pleasure to work with (as long as you had plenty of smokes handy!).

[Courtney Mil]

That's why I was offering them some factual copy, this way they can get it all right without the need to worry about checking the details for correctness.

[Wensleydale]

It could be worse. I remember mid 80's when the Nimrod MPA force were busy
with a major SAR event around the UK. BBC national news showed a photo of an E3
which we didn't actually have in the RAF inventory back then (but Nimrod MR2 =
Nimrod AEW = photo of a big aircraft with a radar thingy on top) getting
involved operating out of Kinross. Cue the large map of Scotland with an arrow
pointing towards Fife!


....or even Neatishead who, during the 1980s, retasked a NATO E-3A to carry out a low-level radar/visual search for an overdue fishing vessel. They seemed somewhat miffed when the crew pointed out the problems with their request!

[CoffmanStarter]

Courtney ...

I also understand that we have deployed a squadron of our new "interdictor" platform to Cyprus.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v714/Bruggen/chip.jpg

[Treble one]

And I thought it was only the F-35C version that had the cannon fit.

You learn something new every day.....

:)

Rgds
TO

[Pontius Navigator]

And of course it the picture editor requires the sharp bit to point the other way they will simply reverse the image.

The Torygraph once had a half-page spread, graphics and text, on one of the operations, Tonka and Shadow IIRC, it was word and picture perfect except for one small and insignificant detail.

The whole article had been issued from Truth Central and nowhere did the TG admit to printing a PR scoop handed out by the MoD.

[anotherthing]

UK Set to deploy new Airborne Squadron to Syria

http://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-G42PVd9/0/M/i-G42PVd9-M.jpg

[Background Noise]

Try this page for the original 'artist's impression': Countdown to war with Syrian tyrant approaches | The Sun |News|Politics (http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/politics/5100139/Countdown-to-war-with-Syrian-tyrant-approaches.html)

[EyesFront]

Blimey .. at least they have their heads covered to avoid upsetting the locals.

Popped into the army aviation museum at Middle Wallop yesterday - I assume the Tutors in the circuit and the hover-taxying Lynx are all part of the build up to some serious air strikes...

[Courtney Mil]

And I saw three lorry loads of nukes being moved to Plymouth yesterday. Should make for some excellent photo opportunities.

[Canadian Break]

Wens - re your post 21. No windows in an E3 then? IFR all the way!:E

[500N]

Can't wait for the headlines in the UK newspapers over the next few days :O


I would laugh if they did actually publish something from here.

[ShyTorque]

Rumoour is that all they they are really going to do is to change the composition of the Chemtrails over Syria and drop nerve agent antidote liquid.

[Dunky]

Accurate journalists, an oxymoron surely. It's not just the tabloids that get it wrong either, TV newscasters among others regularly describe anything with tracks as 'tanks', particularly if it has a turret and gun, thus CVR(T) (whichever version), AS90, Warrior, and even the FV432 are described as 'tanks'.

[CoffmanStarter]

The Rocks are now boarding at Scampton on their Special Forces transport en-route to somewhere at the eastern end of the Med ...

Apparently traveling in No1's is all part of the deception plan to throw the UK Press off the story ... keep it under your hat chaps :oh:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BSv_CiyCEAA6oLu.jpg:large

(seriously though) Cracking picture :ok:

[500N]

That is a superb photo.

The Old and the new, in anniversary paint scheme as well :ok:

[ExAscoteer]

ATV newscasters among others regularly describe anything with tracks as 'tanks', particularly if it has a turret and gun, thus CVR(T) (whichever version), AS90, Warrior, and even the FV432 are described as 'tanks'.

Technically 3 versions of CVR(T) were tanks (albeit light ones).

Scorpion, Scimitar and Sabre.

[tyne]

As a journalist who has worked very closely with the military, I have to agree with a lot of the above.

Journalists who understand military stuff are rare. As a bit of an anorak, I get a lot of it and come down very hard on journos who don't.

However - a lot of you don't make it easy.

Imagine you are an ordinary paper journalist. You cover court stories, crime stories, consumer stuff etc. Then you get sent on a carrier.

So the Helo or cab or mustang, picks you up to to take you to a CVS. You are in your Goon Suit. You are taken there in a Gucci helo. Land on, go to the ACR, then the wardroom but it's roughers so you'd better not spill your goffer. But its OK, there are some 801 people over there, Shar Jockeys and some crabs who fly the mud movers. The other guys are baggers, and the ones in the corner pingers.

Your pit is in 2 Sierra Seven, and if you want the heads its aft over the ladder chain on the STBD side.

Down in the SCC there is the Olys and the Stokers.

Then if you get lost and meet a chief - they aren't in charge, but are really. Watch he may flash at you.

So, tell me again, the Shar is a mud mover isn't it? No. OK but are they not bombs under its wings. Drop tanks. Oh I see. It carries missiles. But the mud moving one has missiles on it too. But Shars carry bombs too. Its not a navy plane, its RAF. Oh JFH. Right.

So there's a guy who's back from Op Herrick 3. He's a Flobs on HMA8s now.. What's that about? The Buffer will explain.

Slightly old examples, but chuck a journo or any ordinary member of the public into that and its going to be confusing.

I used to train a lot of you in how to deal with the media. The first thing I told anyone. Speak English and explain stuff in simple terms.

One fast jet looks much like another to someone who has never seen one before. If it is painted green has a gun and runs on tracks.....Most people would think it was a tank.

Add that to random pictures being put in photo archives, by someone who doesn't know the difference between a Fiesta and a Corsa, and that's where part of the problem lies.

I am not making excuses for bad journalism. There are bad journos as there are bad bakers, doctors, bin men, soldiers - whatever.

PR of varying quality, the constant change of people in a job, and a closed to the outside world mentality by many doesn't make things any easier.

[TomJoad]

That is a superb photo.

The Old and the new, in anniversary paint scheme as well :ok:

X 2. Fantastic photo.


Great story, good to the boys getting involved!

[Dunky]

Technically 3 versions of CVR(T) were tanks (albeit light ones).

Scorpion, Scimitar and Sabre.

I know what you mean, and you could describe them as such, but the (power) pack is at the front, and they have a different role. Yes, I know the IDF put the pack on their Merkava MBT in the front as well.

[gr4techie]

The media.... Never letting the truth get in the way of a good story.

Doesn't matter what you say in an interview as segments of it will be taken out of context, cut and pasted to meet their agenda. They already know how they want to portray the subject.

[muppetofthenorth]

No denying what you're saying tyne, but is it too much to ask that someone checks their facts and/or gets something proof-read first? It really wouldn't take much effort, time or money.

[tyne]

No, not too much to ask. The above was partly a reason why, not an excuse.

Sloppy reporting can cause a lot more than irritation.

In 2003 a Sea Knight crashed during the Iraq operation. A TV channel ran a picture of a Chinook. It took a lot of shouting and arguing before I got them to change the image.

Yes they look the same...sort of. But families of UK Chinook crews must have had a heart stopping few moments when they saw it.

The problem is, who checks the accuracy. Other non expert journos. Not every newsroom has a geek like me to keep them straight.

I really don't know if there is a practical answer.

All I can suggest is better media training. An understanding that most media are not BFBS or Navy news, a willingness to explain things in simple terms would help.

Also understand that the military is not THE most important thing to the journo or their editor.

The agenda, what stories are covered etc is decided by the journo or the editor (Bearing in mind OPSEC etc) not by the minder. A hack may want to meet the guys in the cookhouse. Another may only be interested in talking to commanders.

If however things get published that are wrong. Tell the publication.

[Wensleydale]

Wens - re your post 21. No windows in an E3 then? IFR all the way!


None for the mission crew to see out of except for a couple of pin holes in the over-wing hatches - and you can't see down because of the wings- its a flying cigar tube. Limited downward vis for the flight deck as well, and the aircraft is certainly not built for low flying!

[Pontius Navigator]

anotherthing, those heels look as if they could do serious damage.

[Broadsword***]

The aircraft are to be based at RAF Dhekelia in Cyprus and deployment is expected to start by Friday.

I wonder if anyone has told the parachute wing they are a dispersal airfield.

[CoffmanStarter]

anotherthing, those heels look as if they could do serious damage

PN ... Just to clarify you are talking about the females with inflated flotation equipment and not the Rocks :}

[Pontius Navigator]

Coff, of course, they are clearly prepared for a beach landing to take on the Syrian ladies beach volleyball team.

[500N]

"The problem is, who checks the accuracy. Other non expert journos. Not every newsroom has a geek like me to keep them straight.

I really don't know if there is a practical answer."


It's called professionalism and whether you (as in the newspaper, editor, reporter) want to look like a dick or a professional person.

They seem to, wouldn't or are less likely to make the same mistake with the Royals, calling a Judge a Lawyer or F1
or 1000cc motorcycle racing so why with the military ?

And as someone else pointed out, they then want us to pay for it !!!

[Onceapilot]

Never-ever speak to a journo. If in the mob, you cannot say what you think anyway-unless it is the party-line:=.

OAP

[TomJoad]

It's called professionalism and whether you (as in the newspaper, editor, reporter) want to look like a dick or a professional person.

And as someone else pointed out, they then want is to pay for it !!!

Spot on "it's called professionalism" if you are going to do something in any walk of life there is only one way to do it.

Newspaper consumption is dwindling - maybe the lack in rigour/professionalism is part the problem.

[500N]

"Newspaper consumption is dwindling - maybe the lack in rigour/professionalism is part the problem."

Damn right it is.

How many serious Investigative Journalists are left ?

As opposed to those who just regurgitate something and make it look
good by standing in front of the Hospital, Parliament, Crash scene
or wherever as opposed to actually coming up with something decent
to say themselves.

You could train monkeys to do what most "reporters" do.

And then of course you have the "race to be first", "regardless of accuracy"
issue which seems to blight everyone in the field.

Followed by the whole break down of any ethics.


This thread and the fact that people on here were (jokingly) posting
(false) information and photos on the basis the media looks at this
forum says so much about the media it is not funny.

And finally, re accuracy, years ago, research took a while as you had
to use books. Now, it takes 10 seconds to check the facts and / or
cross reference something. Yet the standard of media is getting worse
even though tools are better.

Anyway, just my HO.

[tyne]

I agree. Standards aint what they are.

It is also a case of paying peanuts to get minkeys.

Time constraints play their part, fewer staff, more to do.

I work as a freelancer in a broadcast job at present. It is a job I did a decade ago as a staffer. On a morning shift I had 5 people in my team. People to check this, check that, I could send reporters out....I had 10 most days later in the shift. I could get them to spend a long time on stories. I had a team of 3 just to cover football stories.

Now 10 years on, at the same company, to do that job, plus writing web based stories, checking social media etc, there is just me. If I am lucky, 3 days a week, I have a reporter. A kid straight out of university who I have to train to get the job done.

My story is not unique. I hope my standards don't slip. I can't speak for others.

One a typical day, I could have my reporter at court, then on to interview a football manager, then onto a business story.

There is no excuse for not being on the ball. Excuses or not, sometimes things go wrong.

[smujsmith]

Coff #21,

#13 after enlightenment.

I may seem strange, :eek: but I wonder if the little bugger could get away with it. If only it could lift some serious weight.

Smudge

[CoffmanStarter]

Hi Smudge ...

I think you mean @#13 ?

Well one or two of the old girls had to lift me :ok:

Best ...

Coff.

[Courtney Mil]

Tyne,

Thanks so much for your input. In a way, funny how cuts are the same and having the same detrimental effect everywhere.

So many here have repeatedly said, "why not get it proof red by someone who knows?" So, time to stump up. Who is willing to offer an impartial, but informed review of journos' drafts. Take out the obvious bloomers and "just plain wrong words".

I will.

Who else?

[Pontius Navigator]

They seem to, wouldn't or are less likely to make the same mistake with the Royals, calling a Judge a Lawyer or F1
or 1000cc motorcycle racing so why with the military ?

I beg to differ. They are only 'perfect' where you have less knowledge of the subject than they do.

[anotherthing]

CM

Proof Red?!! :}

[Courtney Mil]

anotherthing, bugger. Guess they won't be taking up my offer then, :{

[langleybaston]

Who else?

I'll tackle the Met. nonsenses, but most of my ire will be directed against my former employers re.
BBQ summers,
mild winters,
and ten years cool wet summers before this summer.

Mrs LB was on the team working on Long Range Forecasts in 1959 [sic]. She is right when she says that no progress has been made despite computer after computer ......... "it is not do-able!"

Quite.

[TomJoad]

And then of course you have the "race to be first", "regardless of accuracy"
issue which seems to blight everyone in the field.



And finally, re accuracy, years ago, research took a while as you had
to use books. Now, it takes 10 seconds to check the facts and / or
cross reference something. Yet the standard of media is getting worse
even though tools are better.




That's it, you hit the nail on the head 500N. Years ago there was a very personal investment - you had to do the legwork. In the internet age, and more latterly in the day of twatter and book face, the value of the written word has been cheapened. Never mind the old adage "today's news print is tomorrow's" fish supper wrapper - now it's smacking the fishes arse as soon as the submit button has been pressed. In a way we should not be too surprised - how much care do we take with our own musings on PPrune? Or maybe that is just me:\

Tom

[500N]

Tom

When I wrote that, I was thinking back to Uni and writing Psychology reports
and having to go to the Library for long hours to get a book, read and
photocopy the report, reference it, then hand write your results.

Now, (and I have done this), I just type in the name of the writers and the report name and invariably
I can find a copy on line within 5 minutes of searching. Not only that, but numerous critiques of the report are normally available as well.

I wish I did a degree with what is available to students now,
a lot less book lugging around !!!

[OutlawPete]

Tyne, I sympathise as it is frustrating when it feels like being tarred with the same brush and I'm sure there are many journalists (yourself included) who have high professional standards.

This is the self-styled forces paper for 'our boys'. So would it kill em to have a copy of Janes on their desk for comparison of such things before it goes to print. I mean, even if they'd put a picture of an F3, that would at least have been close!

500N said they wouldn't make such mistakes with celebrities, politicians etc and I agree. They'd be afraid of the litigation that followed.

[TomJoad]

500N,

I don't want to keep banging on my my day job on the forum but that is exactly what I keep telling the students. Ask them to do a bit of research and you never get original work never mind anything that has at least had some meaningful scrutiny. We have a generation already in the system that work like that because that is all they know. The frightening thing is that these folk are working within all professional levels. Look at how the various scandals in Health, Social Work, Justice, Parliament etc are explained away with so many words that mean nothing.

I honestly believe that it is a serious affliction - from the so called dodgy dossier to the nonsense that we see in management and the idiotic double speak that infects policy formation within MoD, DPA/DLO and indeed the Services. We are loosing the ability to properly articulate the great issues of the day. God help us - so this is how empires fall! I'm getting old, I need a grumpy meter:\

[500N]

Tom

Interesting.

The lecturers had no problem us using quotes etc as long as
1. Our paper wasn't one quote after another, they said they did
want us to put things in our own words and then support it
with a quote.

2. Everything had to be properly referenced at the bottom
of the page. If not, we got our arses kicked, the paper marked
down and if the student did it often enough, they were warned
about Plagiarism.

I don't envy you at all in your job.

I will say (it was said to me many years ago, it's not my original thoughts),
doing a degree makes people (or used to) learn how to research and write a report properly and,
if the lecturers are good, stimulate thinking outside the square. I think it's true.

[500N]

Outlaw Pete

"This is the self-styled forces paper for 'our boys'. So would it kill em to have a copy of Janes on their desk for comparison of such things before it goes to print. I mean, even if they'd put a picture of an F3, that would at least have been close!"

Very good observation indeed.

I like the second suggestion re Janes as well.

[TomJoad]

500N

Yes of course, use of referencing other papers, quotes etc is permitted and of course is necessary. I guess what my complaint is (didn't explain it too well) is that the relevance of the reference material and the scrutiny given is often very shallow. The information is obtained far too easily. There is too much information out there and often little discrimination. Like you, I have often wondered how would I perform undertaking my degree course now. I can't help but think it would be much easier - so many references, aids, forums, computer animations (did engineering) to help explain concepts. Again maybe that is the grumpy old man talking.:ok:

Here's a though, In the week of the 50th anniversary of Martin Luther King's speech - will we ever see such oratory again. I hope so but I do wonder - it certainly won't come from twitter

PS that's funny twitter came up as PPrune ?

[Trim Stab]

500N,

I don't want to keep banging on my my day job on the forum but that is exactly what I keep telling the students. Ask them to do a bit of research and you never get original work never mind anything that has at least had some meaningful scrutiny. We have a generation already in the system that work like that because that is all they know. The frightening thing is that these folk are working within all professional levels. Look at how the various scandals in Health, Social Work, Justice, Parliament etc are explained away with so many words that mean nothing.

I honestly believe that it is a serious affliction - from the so called dodgy dossier to the nonsense that we see in management and the idiotic double speak that infects policy formation within MoD, DPA/DLO and indeed the Services. We are loosing the ability to properly articulate the great issues of the day. God help us - so this is how empires fall! I'm getting old, I need a grumpy meter

Tomjoad - partly right - for the (vast majority) of plebs, the internet enables a lazy short cut to a vast source of plagiaristic nonsense & diatribe.

What you fail to mention is that it also gives original thinkers and leaders a huge resource to change the world through rational argument. Take your choice...

[CoffmanStarter]

LB ...

Mrs LB was on the team working on Long Range Forecasts in 1959 [sic]. She is right when she says that no progress has been made despite computer after computer ......... "it is not do-able!"

So that's back to reading the seaweed then :ok:

[500N]

"back to reading the seaweed then"

Seaweed ?

I am still on the tea leaves, when did everyone go on to the seaweed ??????

[CoffmanStarter]

Good God man that's what you've been doing wrong all these years ... Tea leaves indeed :}

Seaweed

In coastal areas, seaweed is often used as a natural weather forecaster. Kelp, for example, shrivels and feels dry in fine weather, but swells and becomes damp if rain is in the air.

[500N]

Bugger ! I knew I was behind the times - I might get onto one of these
"i" thingy's at some stage in the future :O

Aaahhhh, reading the weather !

I've got a leg that tells me when it is going to rain or
the pressure is dropping - courtesy of breaking it
many years ago.

[Pontius Navigator]

TJ-500N, degrees, I see what the modern problem is. You 'research' your assignment and then piece together a series of pros and cons before drawing and ideally neutral conclusion '. . . if on the other hand . . .'

On one first year tutorial a student had the temerity to say "I think . . . " and was immediately slapped down by the tutor "No one wants to know what YOU think."

Only at higher levels are you expected to think and even then modern history thesis seem to be based on material unearthed from the archives and given the light of day. They are 'research' papers only so far as that person has 'searched' the archives. Or so it seems to me :)

[500N]

Interesting.

I nearly did a PhD years after my degree on the basis I read a few
and thought this wouldn't be too hard in the modern day and age
of computers. Then thought it wouldn't get me anywhere.

[Mk 1]

We get the usual inaccuracies in the Aussie media - anything armoured even is it has wheels is a 'tank' the navy has 'battleships' and any missile used to be an 'exocet' after that little bruhaha you guys had in '82.

The reporting that really rankles with me being ex infantry is the way the media cannot seem to correctly name our regular infantry battalions. All the battalions are part of The Royal Australian Regiment, thus the 1st Battalion The Royal Australian Regiment is usually referred to as 1RAR, the second 2RAR etc. Not too difficult to understand. Acceptable forms:

The First Battalion, or 1 RAR, or (the full enchillada), The First Battalion, The Royal Australian Regiment.

Instead the media continue to butcher unit names.... As simple phone call to Defence PR, the unit, or pretty much ANY unit would sort this out in a sec, but apparently journalism doesn't include accuracy as one of its cherished standards anymore.

[Courtney Mil]

Kelp, for example, shrivels and feels dry in fine weather, but swells and becomes damp if rain is in the air.

It does more than that. It can tell you the state of the tide too! If it's lying around on rocks getting dry, the tide's out. If it's underwater and all floaty, the tide's in.

[langleybaston]

but what does it mean if your Googie Withers?

[apologies to Morecombe and Wise]

[Courtney Mil]

Much the same as if your Martin Withers, I expect.

[Dunky]

But what does it mean if your Googie Withers?

What, within these walls? ;)

(Ronnie Barker, Porridge)

[500N]

Had to laugh at this.

Two Syria threads exist, one in the Military Forum, one in jet Blast.

These two posts were posted at about the same time.

"BBC reporting 6 tornados being sent as a precauitionary measure."

"Sky reporting the MOD as stating that they are deploying 6 Typhoons from CY to Akrotiri in the AD role in a "defensive posture"."

[TomJoad]

They are 'research' papers only so far as that person has 'searched' the archives. Or so it seems to me :)

Yes in that respect I would tend to agree. But my main complaint is that, because the information is not hard won, they take no ownership of it, they often do not even have a superficial understanding. I don't know, say we are looking at Simple Harmonic Motion in class. We go through the theory, examples, problems etc. Now the web has a wealth of information out there, including some excellent interactive apps to help develop understanding. But they wont use it effectively. If we are lucky they do a cursory search, settle for the first thing they find rather than use the many different presentations to compare, contrast, challenge and then deepen their understanding.

I can't help but feel there is a prevailing attitude at work -"it's there on the web I don't need to understand it just know where it is". Now yes, the web should mean the end of having to recall facts/figures just for the sake of it - but it should not replace the need to master those facts. I'd like to think that the engineers who designed my aircraft had a thorough understanding of finite element analysis and didn't simply use a look up table from the web! I think it's this same attitude we are seeing in the press. Equally, we may well just be grumpy old men:{

[TomJoad]

Had to laugh at this.

Two Syria threads exist, one in the Military Forum, one in jet Blast.

These two posts were posted at about the same time.

"BBC reporting 6 tornados being sent as a precauitionary measure."

"Sky reporting the MOD as stating that they are deploying 6 Typhoons from CY to Akrotiri in the AD role in a "defensive posture"."

That is so funny:D and sad:(. But mainly funny:D:D

[langleybaston]

Quote: "it's there on the web I don't need to understand it just know where it is".

Quite so. A granddaughter has just got an A in Physics GCE, and she recently spent a long weekend here to include a visit to a Met.Office, with a view to employment after a degree.

"Tell me about it grandpa"

Poor big thing had learned NOTHING about Laws of Motion, Cooling, the significance of temperature, heat transfer, latent heat, density ................

So what does an A in GCE Physics imply?

I might add she is far from thick, slack handful of good GCSEs and now hoovering up AS.s including Maths.

[500N]

Tom

Mental Arithmetic is a good example.

With the advent of calculators, mobile phones which have a calculator,
computers etc, IMHO the ability of people to do mental arithmetic "on the fly"
such as standing in front of a cash register has diminished.


Another one is Navigation. I was lucky and was taught how to Nav with
a Map, Compass and protractor, on land and sea. I see plenty of people in
a hobby I do who are totally lost if the GPS goes bang or runs out of batteries.

[Wensleydale]

I see plenty of people in
a hobby I do who are totally lost if the GPS
goes bang or runs out of batteries.


Its called a two man flight deck!

[Pontius Navigator]

they take no ownership of it, they often do not even have a superficial understanding. . . .If we are lucky they do a cursory search, settle for the first thing they find rather than use the many different presentations to compare, contrast, challenge and then deepen their understanding.

Quite.

One OU module I did required us to use a simple website creation tool. Two of 3 of us, cooperating over a forum, explored the tool and exploited it to its maximum. The works we created were far removed from what the OU tutors had expected of their tool - no html was allowed - and had to conceded we had followed the letter of the guidance but not the spirit.

The following year they proscribed the limits more closely to keep the playing field more level.

A degree today is scarcely more exacting than an A-level.

[CoffmanStarter]

500N ... The correct Hot Poop from the MOD ... that's assuming they know the difference between a Tonka and a Tiffy :rolleyes:

MOD Press Release (https://www.gov.uk/government/news/typhoons-deploying-to-cyprus)

[500N]

Coffman

The UK gov't makes it very easy for everyone.

1. Page with info re the deployment.
2. Link to the RAF Web site of the RAF Typhoon with a LINK at the bottom
of the page Aircraft recognition - Typhoon.
3. The on the bottom of that page, another link to Typhoon gallery with a heap of photos.


Beats a crummy old press release faxed on an old thermal fax machine.