Shackleton Mk 3

[Jackw106]

Spent the day at Newark air museum many thanks to Brian who gave me a guided tour

Shackleton Mk 3 - YouTube

[thing]

Crikey, I can smell it still.

[smujsmith]

The very origin of my first "honkers stew", possibly not a Mk3, but it had a spark plug on top.

Smudge :ok:

[denachtenmai]

Never worked on the Mk3 but still obviously a Shack, thanks for the clip.
(back on 204 we would always align the props though:))
Regards, Den.

[aw ditor]

Replacement LRMPA'? New Crew Boxes, give the seats a touch of leather restorer' and light the Vipers!

[Shack37]

Some bugger's nicked the bomb aimer's mattress:{

[MPN11]

Lovely … real kit, not some anodyne digital stuff. Danny42C would relate to that, even though not Kipper fleet.

You learn to make it 'sing' for you, not just leave it to a computer. Serious job satisfaction.

[Wensleydale]

I thought that I'd better show the mission area of a proper Shackleton!

http://www.8squadron.co.uk/history_images/shack_console_lg.jpg

[MPN11]

May one admit to a damp patch? Seriously old kit, needing TLC and skill. :ok:

[Wetstart Dryrun]

Had a trip in a Shack once, courtesy of Eric Peck. 8 hours into the sortie, wandering about with my book, I came across the steery bit (bridge?) and noticed a stream of water coming in through the window. The driver, or could have been the cook or cleaner, said - 'I know what you're thinking - no, it's not pressurised.'

..went back to the book, in the front bay window.

wets

[brokenlink]

Looks ready to start and taxi! Any plans to get the Griffons turning and burning?

[Wensleydale]

I came across the steery bit (bridge?) and noticed a stream of water coming in through the window.


Water usually flooded into the aircraft on the take-off run after it had been sat on the ground for a while at a wet Lossie. Sadly, the usual ingress in the mission crew area was directly over a cabinet called the "High-Voltage Power Pack" (top right hand side in the picture above) and had a suitable danger warning painted on it. Also sadly, in the event of radar problems (which could be frequent), one of the check list items was to check the fuse inside the said box: the fuse usually had to be prised out of its holder with a screwdriver, which wasn't much fun when water had been dripping over it for a considerable period. At least we didn't have health & Safety breathing down our necks in those days!

Wearing immersion suit usually kept most of the water out though!

https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/944133_264092710399683_188275588_n.jpg

[Shackman]

That 'mission area' is of course of an AEW version, not a proper Shackleton at all. But you're right about the streams of water pouring in (whether on T/O or the cruise). Naturally when the modifications were done down at Bitteswell to put the AN/APS-20 and associated Gannnet rejects into the aircraft, only the RN specialists had any input, so nothing was done on/to the aircraft to improve 'crew comfort', including replacing the cockpit sealing and a number of other modifications that could have been done virtually for nothing as everything was being taken out and replaced.

[Wensleydale]

That 'mission area' is of course of an AEW version, not a proper Shackleton
at all


You will find that the Mk 2 spent more time in service as an AEW rather than as the MR variant (17 years maritime: 20 years as AEW). Seems to me that AEW is therefore the most important role for the airframe (as also evidenced by SDSR but that's a different thread).

[oxenos]

All of Avro's aircraft leaked badly. On 205 Sqn in Singapore, where crossing the ITCZ meant flying through very heavy rain, considerable amounts of water would enter the aircraft, and a local mod involved drilling holes in the floor to avoid excesive build up.
On ships, water shifting around inside the hull causes instability, usually laterally.(think Herald of Free Enterprise) Also google free surface effect.
On aircraft, the fuselage being long and relatively narrow, the worst effects are in the fore and aft. Those big bits you had to climb over in the Shackleton fuselage, and which they refer to as the main and rear spars, are actually nothing more than baffles to stop the water from rushing back and forth and making the aircraft uncontrollable in pitch.
It is not generally known that Avro built a prototype flying boat to compete for the Specification R.2/33 (which gave rise to the Sunderland). It was built in great secrecy at Woodford, taken in bits to a secret hangar next to the Manchester Ship Canal, and assembled.
Came launch day. It slid down the slipway into the water, and just went on going down, leaving nothing but a few bubbles. The whole thing was hushed up,and Avro never built another flying boat.

[Shackman]

Thank you for reminding me of that mod oxenos - of course you also forgot to mention that it drained into the bomb bay! After ITCZ transits we had to ensure the groundcrew (and occasional senior officer) stood well clear when we opened the bomb doors after landing. The flood we released was known to wash small aircraft away.

Re length of service - I think the 60+ MR2s started Sqn life in 1952, and at least 2 were still flying on 8 when I left in 1976, whereas the 12 AEW2 only started arriving in April 1972 (our first AEW flight was 20 Apr) and the last 6 fiinished in '91.

[oxenos]

I don't know when you were on 205, Shackman. In my time the bomb door seals were never that good. As for drowning senior officers - I wish.

[Pontius Navigator]

Back on thread (I think).

I met an ex-Shack Mk3 AEOp, then a Vulcan AEO, who was one of the crews at a Farnborough air show that demonstrated the capability of the aircraft to fly for 24 hours.

On the first day a Mk 3 departed. On the second day another departed and the first returned having been airborne for 24 hours.

It had simply flown up and down the Channel at endurance speed. As he wryly observed, they could have flown to St Mawgan, had a few beers, been instructed not to shave, and flown back the next day, but they did fly for 24 hours.

This was in the mid-50s I believe.

[dragartist]

PN, Do you know if they had the capability to top up from a tanker?
I have never seen one with a probe.

I had to have a second take of the picture (video) in #1. I thought that looked a rather modern flat panel display. I think it is a dehumidifier!! Duh..

[dragartist]

Sorry BGG I have my serious head on tonite.
I recall seeing early pictures of the Cobham system where the aircraft were connected tail to tail. (yet flying in the same direction). probably Lincolns.

I am sure I will find an authoritive text on the subject somewhere.

[Shack37]

Posted by BGG


Nice one. The only tanker slow enough to refuel a Shack would be an oil
tanker http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/evil.gif


Would that be the floating type tanker or your trusty old bowser?

[Krakatoa]

TOP UP FROM A TANKER !!!!!!!!!
Perish the thought, only a sadist would think of that.

[Pontius Navigator]

Aerial refueling - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerial_refueling)

Looped hose system. I guess you could open the upper hatch at the wardroom and feed the grapple and then hose in there.

Have to stop smoking though.

[Wensleydale]

I guess you could open the upper hatch at the wardroom and feed the grapple
and then hose in there.



And pass down some Dairy Cream Sponges while you are at it!

I suppose that if a tanker was available (and you didn't bother about the oil) then the limits for endurance would depend upon the capacity of the elsan toilet (which is just a bucket with a seat on), although I suppose it could be baled out and the contents poured down the flare shoot. As an aside, the elsan had to be "cling-filmed" before any air-display to prevent spillage.

[rvusa]

PN. The Farnborough 22 hour flights were in either '59, '60, '61, probably 1960. The aircraft took off as the last item on Day 1 and landed as the first item on Day 2, etc. Our route took us towards Lisbon, Canary Islands, Azores, flown at endurance speed. Extra fuel was contained in a bomb bay tank. There was an 'enhanced' crew plus, of course, many extra pies!:)

[Pontius Navigator]

rvusa, thank you. My source was over 40 years ago :). Name might have been Duke.

[Wensleydale]

Name might have been Duke.


John Wayne used to fly Shackletons?? I knew that there were a lot of cowboys in the maritime world, but this is news to me!!

[Wetstart Dryrun]

May I relate my other 'Shack' story?

In the late 70's, a Shack went on a ranger to Germany. The aircraft's route included flying over the reservoirs and dams of the Ruhr at low level.

The pilot was immediately posted as RAFG Flight Safety Officer.

...bless. Ben

wets

[Richard Woods]

You will find that the Mk 2 spent more time in service as an AEW rather than as the MR variant (17 years maritime: 20 years as AEW). Er... what about WL738 and WG556? Both were built in 1952 and served until 1978 and 1980 respectively, which put them at 26 and 28 years all spent as MR Mk2..?

:8

[PPRuNeUser0139]

You will find that the Mk 2 spent more time in service as an AEW rather than as the MR variant (17 years maritime: 20 years as AEW).
I think 8 Sqn with their AEW Shacks only ever mustered 10 constituted crews at best - whereas there were something like 15 MR Shack sqns.
To paraphrase someone else, it's not the length that counts, it's the width!:}

[Pontius Navigator]

SV, width and quality.

[PPRuNeUser0139]

.. which is why I said paraphrase.

[BEagle]

The pilot was immediately posted as RAFG Flight Safety Officer.

...bless. Ben


Benbow?



.

[Jackw106]

1956 Suez crisis.
The country was just recovering from the war and the RAF were short of aircraft (what’s new) at that time they had Valletta’s and Hastings. 3 Para were tasked to fly out to Cyprus refuelling at Marseille. En route to Cyprus the bomb bay was accidently opened and all their kit fell into the Mediterranean. My friend who was on that Op was sat in the back turret with a great coat on.

[Shackman]

I was always amused by one of the MR war loads - which was '28 fully armed troops'.

[Pontius Navigator]

JackW, had to read that twice :)

[Wetstart Dryrun]

Yes, Ben.

He also claimed responsibility for the picture of Harold Wilson wearing a MK1 bonedome back-to-front, with the pigtail dangling across his nose.

...love him to bits.

wets

[Jackw106]

The airborne used the Hastings and Valletta in 56 but due to shortages the RAF provided a few Shackletons

Shackleton - Aircraft Profile - Avro : Shackleton (http://www.battleships-cruisers.co.uk/aircraft_history.php?Aircraft=20)

[Krakatoa]

I was involved in the trooping after Suez when it was get the lads home for Christmas time. Went to Luqa, night stop then a shuttle to Nicosia and back to Luqa, night stop, then back to UK,( St. Mawgan)
Somebody had worked out the exact floor space allocated to each of the 28 troops. As co-pilot I did the walk round, climbed in,and made sure the door was secure. Now the tricky bit getting from the rear door to the right hand seat with every square inch of floor covered with bodies. I was lifted and passed up to the front end of the aircraft !
I can not remember the reason but Shackletons were involved in trooping to Cyprus in June 1958. We collected the troops at Abingdon where the regiment band was playing as the 28 troops squeezed into the Shackleton.

[BEagle]

wets, it could only have been Ben Benbow!

He was UTP during my basic flying training at RAFC in 1974 and was a breath of fresh air to my fellow students and I - he treated us as fellow pilots, unlike the OT instructor miseries (one of whom accused the late Don Turbitt of having 'un-officer like bone structure...' :( )

Ben's tales of his first flying tour in the RAF had us in stitches - it wasn't on Shacklebombers, it was on Beaufighter TT10s at RAF Seletar in about 1959! He spent his time in the back of the Beau operating the target winch, before taking a commission and starting pilot training, followed by a long career on the Shack.

[Haraka]

Beags,
Ben Benbow stories are legendary,
Including;

Getting a Wraf officer to cross her legs and try to f*rt as part of "alleged" training for decompression. All this in front of a class of aircrew.

Telling a long story in mixed company at a happy hour about the terrible road accident his missus had had , involving her being scraped along the road on her bottom and losing her Glutinus Maximus muscles as a result. Fortunately, he explained, the docs had built a prosthesis. This looked normal but was held on to her pelvic bones by a set of connectors which causes her problems from time to time and required removal occasionally to give her relief .
Looking at his watch he declared that such a time was now coming and therefore he had to go home:
" In order to screw the arse off my wife"

[octavian]

Ahhhhhh, Benbow.

When the legend first arrived at Cranwell it was to be an instructor, possibly on 2 Squadron and I think his c/s might have been 50, but it was about 40 years ago, so be gentle. It soon became apparent that Ben's style didn't quite meet up with the expectations of the wheels, although as BEagle suggests, and I can confirm, he was much loved and appreciated by pretty well everyone, except the stiff upper lip crowd. After a wee while he moved to the UTP post, which suited him fairly well. I think he went on to Shackletons after Cranwell and I next met him when he was visiting Honington about 1975/76.

Permit me a brief recollection: Sitting on approach and the dreaded four tone blips of a speechless aircraft rang out. After all the usual nause and questioning about can you maintain height, is your further emergency this that and the other and so on, I had finally sussed that was Ben and I hadn't a clue what the problem was. OK I said, I give up what is the problem? That delightful gravelly voice came back with "I've got a wasp in the cockpit, and its hiding ha ha"

Incidentally I think that, before his encounter with Cranwell, he had spent quite a while at Pershore on Canberras with the RRE.

Good times, and interested to note that BEagle was at RAFC around the time I was there ('72-74)

[condor17]

Thanks for the entertainment gents . It's prompted me to think there is a cheap Nimrod replacement readily available and possessing of what seems to be the 2 most desirable MR characteristics . Namely she's Avro and leaks mightily ..... daughter of 't Budgie [748] and Andover ..... the mighty Parrot - Bat - Wigwam [ a teepee ] .. ATP [ advanced technical problem ] .
Not being military , but having the occasion to speak to the lovely radar lass in Leuchars .. '' spose you're sitting in a nice warm aircon room sipping coffee ''?
''Yes , aren't you '' ?
'' Nah , we're sitting here with blankets over legs to soak up 't water , wipers on max to minimise ingress , and coffee too watered down to drink '' .
Reply was not sympathetic .....
Middle of the North Sea at FL150 or so , walk down the back and ship spot through gaps in doors . And on a 3 month old airframe fuel leaks [ engineers called them ''weeps'' ] from the wing tanks . Sounds like she is definitely an Avro .
However at 500' up the Minch we did spot 2 submarines in 1/2 an hour . Leaving Stornoway during the September RAF takeover , we followed a pair of F3s . They were copying Lightnings , but seemed to run out of puff at 3000' , ...... us well we toppled over at 600' . Mind you we did overtake a frigate [ even when they went to full power as we came up the portside at 500' ] . Couple all this with a rare few runs up the Gt Glen , or down Bassentwaite , Derwent Water to top of Windermere . Plus lots Northern Isles five hundred footers , avoiding bad wx or Puffin hunting [ avoiding Buccs ] round The Old Man of Hoy and Northwards .
So this really is a truly Multi Role MR machine , and can be picked up in-expensively , only 2 owners , never raced , or rallyed , several Lady drivers , and nicely beefed up with freight doors .

Oh , forgot to say .. we calculated she could haul 17 pax. from Stornoway to Gander , with a 20 kt headwind . Never really knew how many times a week , month , year , decade that capability would be needed .

Rgds dave f

[wub]

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h269/wub_01/coastguarder_zps946e72e4.jpg

Cheap Nimrod replacement

[Shackman]

Lengthen the wings and stick a couple of extra jets on, a slightly larger fuselage and THEN stick a radome on top - and you'll have one of the original contenders for the AEW Shack replacement. Oh, and find a few 11000ft runways, as performance was 'a bit limited'!

[condor17]

With those Darts whining away any self respecting sub would hear them coming , not to mention PWC 127's fuel economy ! Let the parrot rule !

Coat , hat ....etc..

[WH904]

Only problem is that the 748/ATP has drifted into history in much the same way as Nimrod has. I guess that with the last C-130K aircraft retiring vey soon, they would be the really cheap alternative, if the MoD has suddenly decided that we do need a SAR/ASW aircraft after all. On the other hand, now that we're all European (*cough, splutter*), there must be more than a few abandoned Atlantics in need of a good home!

I assume that the dark rumours of P-8 Poseidon aircraft may well eventually bear fruit, but somehow I don't think a tarted-up Boeing is much of a replacement for the mighty Shackleton and Nimrod. Funny how the idea of a maritime VC10 flapping its airliner wings over the sea at low level seemed ridiculous in the 1960s and yet it seems that the lowly 737 is somehow able to take such matters in its stride... :)

[Jackw106]

Tales from those that crewed the aircraft


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMFRXWDl6bg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqXgQEPRJqU

[Jackw106]

More on this a/c

'Perpetual Motion' The Avro Shackleton - YouTube

[Wander00]

I have happy memories of flying as a JP student with George (Daddy) Etches, who ISTR had won a DFC using a Shackleton as a ground attack aircraft in the Radfan

[oldpax]

My last sight of a Shackelton was sitting in a Brymon airways Dash 7 at Newquay /St Mawgan when the captain came on and said Ladies and gentlemen we are on hold while another aircraft lands,for those of you who are interested its a shackelton,one of the last in service!I saw it from my window seat and almost broke into tears,what a sight .
Ex 204 sqdn groundcrew .....with a few flying hours in MK 1s and 2s!!!!

[Exnomad]

I knew an ex shack navigator, who was not impressed with 20 hour patrols.
My only ( near) contacy with Shacks was flying Oxfords out of No 3AFS Dalcross in 1952, when I was in our low flying zone, thought I was flying low up a highland valley when a Shack came out of a valley at right angles and passed under me.

[Dysonsphere]

you lucky git