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Sallyann1234
24th Aug 2013, 23:46
You couldn't make this up, but you don't need to. It's true!
At one stage last week, three big wind farms even took electricity out of the National Grid - to run basic power supplies on site - rather than actually supplying electricity to households.

And yet...
there have been other times in the past month when wind farm owners have been paid by the National Grid to shut down in order not to over load the electricity supply system.
Such payments - known as constraint payments - have reached £7.5 million for the first three weeks of August.

These figures are from German owned company RWE - whose profits from being paid by UK consumers not to generate electricity are being sent back to subsidise their own home consumers.

The wind farms that generate enough power to make a few cups of tea - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/energy/windpower/10264185/The-wind-farms-that-generate-enough-power-to-make-a-few-cups-of-tea.html)

probes
25th Aug 2013, 09:21
isn't it interesting indeed - always too little or too much. Probably pig poo will work better in the long run.
Create Electricity from Manure with a Methane Digester -Renewable Energy - MOTHER EARTH NEWS (http://www.motherearthnews.com/renewable-energy/methane-digester-for-electricity-zmaz70mjzkin.aspx#axzz2cy1Fp6Yq)
(and they've developed the process since :cool:)

radeng
25th Aug 2013, 09:26
I know of UK sewage works who were doing this in the 1950's, if not before. At least you can be sure of a fairly constant supply of raw material, unlike the wind!

Meanwhile, my neighbour with his 180 or so cows, is actually selling slurry to other local farmers......

As the Yorkshire saying goes, 'Where's there muck, there's brass'.

aviate1138
25th Aug 2013, 09:40
The classic UK non producer is the Reading M4 generator which turns [apparently to avoid costly maintenance] even when the local brewery steam vents straight upwards.......

UK's most useless wind turbine: Cost £130k to raise electricity worth £100k | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1355419/UKs-useless-wind-turbine-Cost-130k-raise-electricity-worth-100k.html)

parabellum
25th Aug 2013, 10:11
BIL, who is an engineer of repute says that wind farms are among the biggest rip offs ever produced by man, Initial cost+maintenance - electricity generated still adds up to a great big loss. "Probably the most inefficient method of generating electricity man has invested in so far", and as they get older the maintenance costs will soar and replacement costs will never be recovered.

Sallyann1234
25th Aug 2013, 10:25
And of course the ultimate ripoff is that when the turbines finally wear out, the land owner finds that they were installed by a subsidiary or subcontractor of the power company that has now been closed down, to avoid any obligation to remove the things or clean up the site.
This is already happening in the US.

B Fraser
25th Aug 2013, 11:37
I drove through the Clyde wind farm last week. It is the largest installation in Europe with over 150 turbines and they are incredibly ugly. Not one of them was turning.

:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh: :ugh::ugh::ugh:

500N
25th Aug 2013, 11:50
And if they are anything like here, built on hills with limited access
so a PITA if they do have to be taken down.

Maybe a levy should be applied to all the Greenies to pay for it :O

west lakes
25th Aug 2013, 11:52
Useful site to see how wind is performing

U.K. National Grid status (http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/)

at the moment generating .73GW out of a total capacity of around 5GW

probes
25th Aug 2013, 11:54
Probably the most inefficient method of generating electricity man has invested in so far
Yeah, but the wind is free forever! (or is it?) :E
Unless it gets all caught up and slows down the Earth, of course.

Ozzy
25th Aug 2013, 12:22
Would it surprise you if the UK Government introduced a Wind Tax? Not me.

Ozzy

Hobo
25th Aug 2013, 12:51
Better stay of the Guinness and Scotch eggs then....

500N
25th Aug 2013, 12:55
Wen all the Turbines give up the ghost and become rusting eyesores
on the horizon, they could be put to good use hanging all the Greenies
from them as a monument to what they created :O

All the screaming and leg kicking would probably create enough energy
that it could be fed into the grid !!!

Dan Gerous
25th Aug 2013, 13:21
At one stage last week, three big wind farms even took electricity out of the National Grid - to run basic power supplies on site - rather than actually supplying electricity to households.

Like the Hydro, that pumps water back up the hill off peak, this is the wind farm version, which replenishes the wind. Honest:)

mad_jock
25th Aug 2013, 13:33
The hydro back pumps though are rather different kettle of fish.

They started doing it to allow the Nuclear to remain on a constant output.

A peak periods they open the taps and get virtually instant power then at low periods they pump back up. Thus making a huge battery.

Much cheaper than gas powered instant power and relatively green.

mikedreamer787
25th Aug 2013, 13:54
Much cheaper than gas powered instant power and relatively green.

What if I want a blue one?

ckurz7000
25th Aug 2013, 14:06
Why not run half of the windmills in a park to generate the wind for the other half to produce electricity? :)

That way, at least, all of them would be turning...

-- Chris.

P.S.: I can't speak for other countries but here in Austria renewable electricity from wind is good business. It all depends on the tariffs you can get. And I ought to know this because my company owns and operates one of the largest windparks around. Has been since turn of the millennium. As of this year, the county is now self-sufficient in electricity. Only problem with wind is that it blows very unpredictabily, though.

Sunnyjohn
25th Aug 2013, 17:55
I drove through the Clyde wind farm last week. It is the largest installation in Europe with over 150 turbines and they are incredibly ugly. Not one of them was turning. "Ah, now,let me see, that could be because there was no wind. Hmm, yes, we hadn't thought of that." (thoughts of a government minister - any government)

Sunnyjohn
25th Aug 2013, 17:59
Would it surprise you if the UK Government introduced a Wind Tax? Not me. Spain has just introduced a Sun tax. There are now so many solar power stations feeding into the Spanish national grid that is is creating a surfeit of electricity. Households that produce their own electricity from solar panels now have to pay a tax to do so. Fortunately. there is insufficient reliable wind, other than within the government, for such a tax to be necessary in the UK.

LookingForAJob
25th Aug 2013, 20:16
Let me make sure I've got this right..... In Spain they are making too much electricity so they are taxing (little) people who generate it. Wouldn't it make more sense to export the excess to help the economy? Maybe this approach helps to explain the rather iffy state of the national books! No doubt someone will tell me that the grid can't cope with all those watts crossing the borders.... So maybe an EU sponsored network to distribute power from where there is excess to where the wind is not blowing or the sun is not shining would be useful - certainly more useful than lots of other things that our money is wasted on!

Must go now, my Daily Mail has just dropped through the letter box.

west lakes
25th Aug 2013, 20:20
In Spain they are making too much electricity so they are taxing (little) people who generate it

Whereas there are cases in the UK where excess is being put into "load banks" (think giant electric heaters) and the companies that produce it and then waste it still get paid!

ehwatezedoing
25th Aug 2013, 20:53
MbIe0iUtelQ
turbine-flicker-effect-draws-complaints (http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2013/04/04/turbine-flicker-effect-draws-complaints/UKgf7nOwMHm8CWAtZ47V5L/story.html)
KINGSTON — It starts in the late afternoon, Doreen Reilly says. Stripes of shadow whip across her living room, kitchen, and bedroom, a pulse of flashing light and dark that can continue more than an hour and makes Reilly want to lose her mind.

“You can’t stay in your room. You get a headache,” Reilly said Thursday. “You can’t live your life.”

The pulse is a phenomenon known as “shadow flicker,” the strum of shadows and reflections cast by the whirling blades of wind turbines.

Never....Never buy a house shadowed by a wind turbine :ooh:

Sallyann1234
25th Aug 2013, 21:52
- or if your signal path from TV transmitter or satellite is similarly afflicted.

glad rag
25th Aug 2013, 21:53
You couldn't make this up, but you don't need to. It's true!
At one stage last week, three big wind farms even took electricity out of the National Grid - to run basic power supplies on site - rather than actually supplying electricity to households.

And yet...
there have been other times in the past month when wind farm owners have been paid by the National Grid to shut down in order not to over load the electricity supply system.
Such payments - known as constraint payments - have reached £7.5 million for the first three weeks of August.

These figures are from German owned company RWE - whose profits from being paid by UK consumers not to generate electricity are being sent back to subsidise their own home consumers.

The wind farms that generate enough power to make a few cups of tea - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/energy/windpower/10264185/The-wind-farms-that-generate-enough-power-to-make-a-few-cups-of-tea.html)

Always the cry of the ignoramus indeed. Go research grid power factor correction and Siemens V power software.

If you can be bothered learning some facts that is.

Oh bring on UK fracking as well.

Stupid ignorant people will be the end of this country, at least some are trying to free us of the yoke of foreign power dependance :ugh::ugh::ugh:

Mr Chips
25th Aug 2013, 22:02
Umm Glad rag I've read your post three times...but I'm not sure what you are trying to say. Could you help me out please? Clearly I'm an ignoramus....

Cacophonix
25th Aug 2013, 22:06
Could you help me out please? Clearly I'm an ignoramus....

With you on that one Mr Chips.. What ever glad rag is distilling through that rag I want some too...

Caco

west lakes
25th Aug 2013, 22:08
I'm not sure glad rag has got an un-biased view (check his profile)

Cacophonix
25th Aug 2013, 22:14
Well spotted West Lakes...

Old turbine engineers never get wound up they just spin down...;)

Hey now, this does look interesting...

PSS®E - Siemens (http://www.energy.siemens.com/hq/en/services/power-transmission-distribution/power-technologies-international/software-solutions/pss-e.htm)

Caco

glad rag
25th Aug 2013, 22:14
It's not really that difficult if you can get off your arses learn what is being done and stop believing the BS..

But that ain't going to happen with the fossil mentality that pervades, will it.
:ugh::ugh:

Frack on baby (but not in your back yard, right) :mad:

Cacophonix
25th Aug 2013, 22:16
Frack on baby (but not in your back yard, right)

Fracking hell... :uhoh:

Caco

Sunnyjohn
25th Aug 2013, 22:19
In Spain they are making too much electricity so they are taxing (little) people who generate it. Wouldn't it make more sense to export the excess to help the economy? It would make a lot of sense but who's going to buy it? Not the UK because they can't get their own companies to build more gas stations because such stations become uneconomic when the wind blows. Not to France 'cos they hate each other. Not to Germany who also have a surfeit produced by dirty coal. Greece? Isle of Man? . . .

radeng
25th Aug 2013, 22:20
I'm just an engineer. So I have no time for bloody wind farms, and question both the morality and integrity of their proponents........

I am willing to be proved wrong of course......but bring on proper arguments

broadreach
25th Aug 2013, 22:22
We can do better than that in Brazil: two wind farms in the Northeast have been ready for about a year now but CHESF, one of the state power companies, has yet to instal the transmission lines to connect them to the grid. In the meantime the farm owners are being paid as per contract, out of our collective pockets.

And last week CHESF were the winning bidders for 38 of a 66 wind farm auction.

Beat that!

Mr Chips
25th Aug 2013, 22:23
Umm Glad rag its kind of traditional to actually present an argument, a few facts or even opinions rather than just stating that people are ignorant.

Its not a rule or anything, just kinda traditional.......

Cacophonix
25th Aug 2013, 22:23
Birdwatchers see rare bird killed by wind turbine - Top stories - The Scotsman (http://www.scotsman.com/news/scotland/top-stories/birdwatchers-see-rare-bird-killed-by-wind-turbine-1-2980240)

Hopefully this will not leave glad rag twitching further with rage... http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wink2.gif

Caco

Cacophonix
25th Aug 2013, 22:28
Wind Turbine sound - YouTube

Quite like the sound of those big rotors but that probably isn't a valid pro argument and then lots of people don't like the infrasound at all...

I suspect in a well balanced grid (multiple power sources), wind farms have their place as well.

Caco

glad rag
25th Aug 2013, 23:06
Good.

Now I've got your full attention children. ;)

Some simple facts.

1. Don't believe all you read. This, naturally, will vary on the particular individuals mindset.

2. Making electricity when the wind blows is to all intents a done deal. The tech is mature and there are steady improvement in the mechanism that is leading to less actual material being consumed eg Siemens DD for example.

3. The UK grid. Funnily enough despite all the promises of 1950's UK atomic power and all the money that we have spent on electricity, well it's shit. Don't get me wrong, it works but the power transmission losses are pretty big.
But it's old and needs megga spending on it, add the old mindset the consumer picks up the tab and you are getting there.

4. The tariffs system.
Well I don't know them all but I'd imagine that each private UK energy company answers to their shareholders first.
Thats how it works, right?? How about a guesstimate of £20K per turbine per hour max production.
I think that there aren't many, on here,who if they were totally honest, wouldn't turn their nose up at that. Don't bullshit me either.

5. The UK grid. Despite being inefficient , it does it's best. The fact that windfarms/parks are taken off line due to lack of grid capacity is down to lack of investment dating since the year dot. Think your water supply company [if it gets you off our backs for a bit]
The FACT that there is an undersea link from Scotland to the Flyde coast to allow all those Scottish wind electrons to bypass the stagnated UK grid is obviously "an inconvenient fact" as fat cat Gore once famously stated :yuk:

6. Turbines. Well get used to them. I doubt very, very much that ANY UK development will have gone ahead with the prospect that people could be affected by blade flicker [as a tech I can say that this bugs the shit out of us around site], there's NO WAY, in the UK, if this was an legitimate objection that the build would have gone ahead.

So to hopefully finalise.

You don't like them because of what you have been told, repeatedly.

You believe that any industrial power project should be sponsored by tinkerbell and the rest of the fairies, but excluding pixies and [I]especially not in your back yard.

You bemoan any development as unnecessary but will be one of the first, once the power goes back on, to be on the phone to the DT.

Congratulations, you could well be classed as a fossil. Just wait till you get fracked at 2 AM.....Bring it on.....:p

500N
25th Aug 2013, 23:26
glad rag

Not sure in the UK but over here in Aus, the Greenies, who for years
yelled protect the environment, no building of tall buildings or ANY
buildings for that matter in certain areas, don't spoil the views along
the coast, keep it pristine.

Then Wind (Green) power came along, throw all the above arguments
out of the window because it is "Green Power".

Destroy pristine views, create pollution in previously unpolluted areas
and the list goes on.

west lakes
25th Aug 2013, 23:45
Not sure in the UK but over here in Aus

It certainly goes on round here with Greenpeace locally saying that any objections owing to the landscape being changed are null and void.

500N
25th Aug 2013, 23:53
Figured as much.

They don't want a dam built but quite happy to stuff the environment
with wind turbines.

probes
26th Aug 2013, 07:35
What I don't understand - why don't we have small wind turbines (maybe vertical axis?) in households, off-grid (fewer problems) to warm water in boilers, for example. If there's wind, the water is warmer, if not, it's less warm or switched to the regular supply.
I don't have any because I can't build it.

Also, several countries had windmills and quite liked them. Couldn't these produce electricity?

dubbleyew eight
26th Aug 2013, 07:48
in australia Dunlite were the name in farm wind powered generators.
I notice on their website that they no longer get involved with wind power and are supplying engine driven generators.
www.dunlite.com.au


if you wanted to heat water why wouldnt you use a solar heater directly?
like one of these...
http://www.alicesolarcity.com.au/sites/default/files/images/Solahart%20on%20roof.jpg

Cacophonix
26th Aug 2013, 07:59
I was thinking that the modern jet aircraft is a simulacrum for the modern city grid... You have turbines of different sorts from the APU to the humble RAT (to be used in extremis).

Potential energy is dammed up in batteries and the whole shebang is tied together through bus bars, switches and miles of wiring to produce exactly around about the right voltage and amperage at the critical point at the time it is needed while ensuring the film in the cabin doesn't dim.

All rather wonderful really...

Caco

probes
26th Aug 2013, 08:26
did you mean Dunlite, Dw8?

the problem with the solar heater is the same old problem - it needs to be installed :) - meaning, one has to ge the components and... probably the electrickery has to cost a lot more to make the muscles move :)

dubbleyew eight
26th Aug 2013, 08:33
probes you have beaten a mere .... again. Dunlite it is.

the japanese have a water heater that is a 44 gallon drum or similar painted black on the roof. the sun heats it and you get warm water.

the problem is that black also radiates heat when the ambient temperature is lower.

probes
26th Aug 2013, 08:39
Dw8, it's not about beating (me not being the one :E), I was being curious! :8
the bulky things can be used, but might be problematic in snowy climates (with heavy snow on the roof, that is). But of course - the will and the way, as usual.
Thanks for the hint anyway.

ckurz7000
26th Aug 2013, 08:50
Small household sized windturbines are terribly inefficient for two reasons: one, the wind speeds low down are inconsistent and slow; two, small wind turbines are a lot less efficient than bigger ones.

It is MUCH better for households to use photovoltaic or direct solar heating.

A remark about the Spanish problem with too much photovoltaic being generated in households: that is a real problem for many reasons.

a) The grid was historically designed to distribute electricity downstream, i.e., to the individual house. With a lot of decentralized energy production this becomes sufficient to turn the direction around. The voltage drop goes the wrong way and grid stability becomes a problem. Investments are needed to remedy this. The buzzword here is "smart grid".

b) The sun shines a lot in places with poor infrastructure to start with.

c) Wherever and whenever the sun shines a lot you are likely to need the least energy. This requires you to transport energy to regions where it is needed. And that, again, requires investment in the grid infrastructure.

d) Countries like Spain, Italy, Portugal, Greece have empty pockets with no reserves available to invest in their power grid infrastructure.

The natutal conclusion is that these countries levvy taxes from those people who, in their eyes, are causing the problem: people who install excess photovoltaic capacities which they can't use all by themselves.

There are two solutions to this:

1) A political one: stop thinking locally and treat Europe as one big connected entity. Make it so that countries like the UK or Germany invest in other places to remedy the energy generation and distribution problem. Europe doesn't need to have an energy problem. It's only if you think country by country that it does.

2) A technological one: develop a solution which allows for wind and photovoltaic energy to be stored so that it can be used when needed. This also solves the surplus production problem. Store surplus energy right where produced and feed it back when needed. A lot of research is going into this sector. The best solution so far is still pumped hydro power, but that's only available where significant mountains are located. And there exist environmental concerns, too. Then there is power-to-gas. For this you use surplus energy to make hydrogen from water. You then store the hydrogen and burn it when needed. Other technologies are also being researches.

Cheers, -- Chris.

dubbleyew eight
26th Aug 2013, 08:53
probes if you are busting to have some hands on experimenting try one of these. they need to be mounted vertical though for the convection to work.

How to Build a Soda Can Heater (http://www.instructables.com/id/How-to-Build-a-Soda-Can-Heater/)

Sallyann1234
26th Aug 2013, 12:24
Well glad rag it's always refreshing to have someone come up and present an opposing view, to make us reevaluate our position.

I started with your point 1:
1. Don't believe all you read. and following that advice I have applied it to your succeeding points.

Neither as a professional engineer nor as a domestic consumer of energy do I find them convincing.

If wind turbines are worth installing, by all means build them and sell your electricity on an open, unsubsidised market. Include your capex and opex in the sale price of your product, just like gas and oil companies do.

And don't try to divert attention away by throwing in fracking - that won't work here.

Mr Chips
26th Aug 2013, 21:58
Gosh Gladrag you really aren't all that good at this whole social interaction thing are you?

Good.
Now I've got your full attention children.
yeah, nice start. I'm assuming that you are pleased with yourself for getting our attention by posting meaningless posts? Interesting


4. The tariffs system.
Well I don't know them all but I'd imagine that each private UK energy company answers to their shareholders first.
Thats how it works, right?? How about a guesstimate of £20K per turbine per hour max production.
I think that there aren't many, on here,who if they were totally honest, wouldn't turn their nose up at that. Don't bullshit me either.


And now you post that you don't know, you're not sure and you are guessing, and yet we are to not bullshit you?

Wow.

RTN11
26th Aug 2013, 22:10
Why can't the turbines be made to do some other work, like pumping water to an elevated position, or raising some kind of weight. Then this potential energy could be unlocked when needed, rather than what we have at the moment where they directly produce electricity whether the grid needs it or not.

This is similar in principle to how Tower Bridge used to work, raising weights while the bridge was down, which it could use to help raise the bridge when needed.

Either way, turbines seem to be being built for political reasons, with subsidies everywhere, rather than just facing facts and building nuclear power stations which would be sustainable and have a steady output.

vulcanised
26th Aug 2013, 22:34
Those political reasons seem to emanate from the EU as good working power stations are being shut down in accordance with their demands.

Smeagol
26th Aug 2013, 22:34
Well I like wind farms, particularly offshore ones!

Some very nice energy companies pay me lots of money to manage the installation of various parts of them.
I do not necessarily believe that wind turbines are the answer to all our electrickery needs.............. because they will not be. But they have a part to play. And as I said I get paid quite nicely to facilitate the dreams of others.

Who am I to argue?

Roll on the end of the month, I get paid again!

Mercenary? Me? Perish the thought!

FullOppositeRudder
27th Aug 2013, 00:50
In one of the lesser colonies down under, things have been somewhat the opposite - at least for the past week:

Wind farms churn out more than half SA's electricity during wild weather - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-08-27/wind-energy-generation-record/4914266)

I'm well aware that there are other considerations in the whole deal, and that this is favourable reporting from a somewhat 'biased' source. There are negatives besides this glowing positive. The turbines (as they are called) are still very controversial and a lot of people hate them.

FWIW
FOR

500N
27th Aug 2013, 00:57
SA is also in a unique position of having a small population (not that many affected by the Wind Turbines), high winds because of the Great Australian Bight and direct line to the South over water and everything is close to where people consume the power.

Captain Dart
27th Aug 2013, 02:59
It also has a large amount of carbon-neutral (if you believe in the scam) uranium in the world's most geologically and politically stable continent, but the bearded wonders won't let us use it.

500N
27th Aug 2013, 03:19
"but the bearded wonders won't let us use it."

That was the start.

Now the Aboriginal elder who owns the land has declared it
never to be touched :rolleyes:

So Jabiluka will never be mined !

FullOppositeRudder
27th Aug 2013, 03:23
Agree with you both 100%, and although the nearest farm is about 50 km from me, the controversy over their merits and disadvantages are never far from the local and regional news. Personally I'm not sure where the truth lies, but there are a variety of opinions around on the many aspects of their presence and operation. :rolleyes:

Sunnyjohn
27th Aug 2013, 13:45
Making electricity when the wind blows is to all intents a done deal. What a smug little statement. Of course, children, you realise that the wind doesn't blow all the time, and that, even when it does, the efficiency of the turbine is nowhere near what the government and company would have you believe it to be, but, trust me, children, it's a done deal.

cattletruck
27th Aug 2013, 14:10
I've always thought them wind farm turbines are the perfect additive to the brainwashed stupor that carries the masses from the cradle to the grave. I mean they just go round and round and round...when the wind is blowing of course. Then there is the silent but impressive spectacle of an array of photovoltaics. Bob Dylan was right, while you watch your electricity bill rise yet again as you keep updating them forever increasingly inefficient household lights.

Just saying.

Sallyann1234
27th Aug 2013, 14:54
as you keep updating them forever increasingly inefficient household lights.

Not here! We're going straight from incandescent to LED's http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gifhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gifhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

cattletruck
27th Aug 2013, 14:58
Not here! We're going straight from incandescent to LED's

Ahh but Sally in a few years time electricity will be so abundant and expensive that you may need to replace all your LED lights with glow worms in a jar.

radeng
27th Aug 2013, 18:05
Of course, LEDs are wonderful, but how much energy does it take to make them? Then there's the radio pollution the controllers cause.......

Solar? How many kWh does it take to make one square meter of photo cells, and how many kWh does it produce in the UK during its life?

Sallyann1234
27th Aug 2013, 19:03
Well, looking at a calculation of
(energy required to make them + energy used in operation) per hour of illumination, I reckon LEDs make CFLs look very sick indeed, and probably give tungsten lamps a run for their money. And the price continues to drop through the floor.
If you have specific figures, I'd be interested to see how they compare with my gut feeling.
.
As for the radio pollution, yes it exists but I'm not aware of any really important* services that might be within range of them.

*your personal definition of importance is different to mine of course :}

glad rag
27th Aug 2013, 22:17
Well glad rag it's always refreshing to have someone come up and present an opposing view, to make us reevaluate our position.

I started with your point 1:
and following that advice I have applied it to your succeeding points.

Neither as a professional engineer nor as a domestic consumer of energy do I find them convincing.

If wind turbines are worth installing, by all means build them and sell your electricity on an open, unsubsidised market. Include your capex and opex in the sale price of your product, just like gas and oil companies do.

And don't try to divert attention away by throwing in fracking - that won't work here.

Lose those blinkers..the country is/is almost bankrupt. Idiots not only deflect our countries attempts at energy self sufficiency, they have no interest of the effects of their decisions beyond the next election.
How to move to energy self sufficiency if the government won't pick up the tab? they make it worthwhile for the private investors... hopefully, hopefully when the changes being wrought are complete we will have both sufficient capacity and distribution to keep the lights on.
Renewables with energy storage [hydro storage] along with shale gas driven power stations to infill is where we can produce our own power.

I don't know if our deposits of shale can completely remove the need for gasprom and their ilk, but it's worth going for.

When the UK ceases to import it's energy then we will be finally in a position of energy independence.

That's what the UK needs.

It's the big picture that counts in the end.

edited for myspllifing

Mr Chips
27th Aug 2013, 22:22
Lose those blinkers..the country is/is almost bankrupt. Idiots not only deflect our countries attempts at energy self sufficiency, they have no interest of the effects of their decisions beyond the next election.
How to move to energy self sufficiency if the government won't pick up the tab?

Yay, the country is almost bankrupt, so lets get the government to give more money to people who don't want to risk their own

Let me see if that makes any sense at all.....

Nope.

BenThere
27th Aug 2013, 22:33
OK, renewable energy blah, blah...

But what about all those eagles, rare California condors, owls and such that windmills are killing by the thousands. Don't they count?

Why do the Greens think their windmill program is immune to kill birds when they sue to stop entire oilfields from producing because a single bird is killed? Who put Greens in charge anyway? I never had a vote on it.

gingernut
27th Aug 2013, 22:37
Sorry not read the whole thread, but noticed the sales/props were parked horizontal on my latest trip to the West Country. Why is that? gingerette suggested it was something to do with "balance" and some'at about wear and tear.

Turbines weren't producing much, but can't help the massive solar panel farms were raking it in. Typical of the poor farmers, they were subsidising there income by letting the sheep graze between the wires !

Some say it's a blot on the landscape, personally find it a good landmark that points the way home !

glad rag
27th Aug 2013, 22:38
Reported two bat deaths to the customer today.
They take it very seriously.
Team came out, photographed the remains before they were disposed of.
Guess that'll be some more fines for the consumers to cough up for then....:}

500N
27th Aug 2013, 22:43
BenThere

"But what about all those eagles, rare California condors, owls and such that windmills are killing by the thousands. Don't they count?

Why do the Greens think their windmill program is immune to kill birds when they sue to stop entire oilfields from producing because a single bird is killed? Who put Greens in charge anyway? I never had a vote on it."

:D:D:D:D:D

Flash2001
28th Aug 2013, 01:11
Drove past a wind farm today and noticed that most of the turbines were turning, very unusual!

After an excellent landing etc...

UniFoxOs
28th Aug 2013, 08:47
Reported two bat deaths to the customer today.
They take it very seriously.
Team came out, photographed the remains before they were disposed of.
Guess that'll be some more fines for the consumers to cough up for then...

Thanks for adding to the opposition case.

Hope you don't mind if I quote you when the next appeal against the refusal of our local project comes up.

UFO

Lightning Mate
28th Aug 2013, 09:26
http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu82/Lightning_29/problem_zpsf011e6c2.jpg

MagnusP
28th Aug 2013, 10:38
How to move to energy self sufficiency if the government won't pick up the tab?

Remind us where the "government's" money comes from?

Sallyann1234
28th Aug 2013, 12:20
I've just realised that glad bag is taking the p!ss. No-one could be that stupid.

mikedreamer787
28th Aug 2013, 12:38
Wind farms.

Started out as a seemingly good idea.

R&D started.

Reality set in soonafter

Skepticism of the practicality realised

Reality and skepticistic arguments ignored.

Green (aka Red) ideology won out.

IMO your average Green bludging around on
the street is a total bloody idiot. I'd wager the
top echelons in that mob don't even believe in
the carefully formulated bullshit they spout.

500N
28th Aug 2013, 12:44
Mike

We had one well known one here, Peter Garrett, lead singer of Midnight Oil,
Green and Anti Nuclear Protest songs.

Ended up getting into Parliament and did he shut his mouth and
compromise what he had done for the previous 20 years !

He is actually quite intelligent and speaks well.

mikedreamer787
28th Aug 2013, 13:11
Yep I know the history of Mr Garrett mate.

Intelligent? I tend to think he was intelligent
enough to believe in all the Green bullshit
post-Oil and smart enough to spruke it in a
way that resonated with the masses IMO.

Spoke well? Yep I'll grant you that. His writers
and speech trainer did an excellent job and he
tuned and refined his method to a tee like Adolf
did in his era. Both had previous experience with
live audiences and the necessary panache for the
showmanship appeal of their respective days.

Where did Garrett fcuk up? Simple - he should've
stayed out of politics and become a full time exec
record producer or something.

dubbleyew eight
28th Aug 2013, 15:22
He is actually quite intelligent and speaks well.


WHAT?!?!?!

that former druggie would be the greatest waste of oxygen ever to be drafted into parliament. a total, absolutely clueless, F**kwit.

typical labor......

cattletruck
28th Aug 2013, 15:53
Never thought much of Peter Garrett after learning he used to like getting his cafe-lattes served by this bloke.

http://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/522353-has-anyone-managed-claim-train-commuting-part-working-day-2.html#post8017182