Buccaneer Performance

[Coochycool]

No, sadly not a display!

Recall overhearing many moons ago that it was impossible to loop the Buccaneer, or at least it was advised against. No idea why. Simple aerodynamics?

Any ex Bucc guys out there ever tried it/thought better of it/survived?

Also ISTR that amongst the officially published stats, the aircraft ceiling was never publicly revealed. Like it wasnt really anything to brag about.

Any idea how high anyone ever got in one and what was a comfortable cruise altitude? Small blown wing and all that. Dont suppose its a design which encouraged experiments in zoom climbing.

Just always wondered about that.

[PURPLE PITOT]

All the ex Bucc guys i have met seemed to be quite happy at about 50 ft. Flat out.:)

[denachtenmai]

Saw a super display at Honington around 1968ish, a crew had just finished the con. course and at the end gave a beat up culminating in a full power flyby and pulling nearly vertical and doing one upward roll, so they could zoom when they wanted to.
ISTR that consecutive upward rolls may have resulted in an unplanned departure of some parts.:ooh:
Regards, Den.

[Courtney Mil]

I would imagine it would be a bit like trying to loop a Phantom in cold power. Start with as much speed as you like, it's so heavy and draggy (especially when pulling g up into the vertical) that it's going to slow down VERY fast. The top of the "loop" would most likely become a nasty slow speed tumbling recovery.

She was built to be beautifully stable and fast at low level, not an aerobatic display jet. Buc aeros - an undignified dance for a very powerful and magnificent war fighter.

[SASless]

Any ex Bucc guys out there ever tried it/thought better of it/survived?

I suppose from the absence of posts.....none survived!:E

[FATTER GATOR]

I remember somebody telling me the Javelin wasn't much cop at aerobatic manoeuvres either...and that's worrying for a fighter.

[Pontius Navigator]

I seem to recall that Simon's Circus had Bucc Mk 1s in a loop but that was a very long time ago.

Looking at Google is seems the circus was only Sea Vixen but I recall seeing mixed formation of Buccaneers and Sea Vixen and certainly in the vertical.

Found it, the Buccs were Phoenix Five http://aerobaticteams.net/simons-sircus.html

[smujsmith]

Purely an observation of a ground crew type, but I've been on the receiving end of many "max chat 50 foot bye bye passes". The aircraft is legend, I never saw one loop, the fly by was awesome. Respect and thanks to anyone still pruning who flew this beast. As a quick aside, I'm awaiting delivery of my pre ordered "The Buccaneer Boys" by Graham Pitchfork. If its half as good as the aircraft it will be a good read.

Smudge:ok:

[Manandboy]

OK, I'll try to answer the OP without too much self-incrimination. As CM has correctly surmised, while a dream to fly at low level the Bucc quickly turned into a bit of a barge when the vertical was involved. THAT SAID, the roll-off-the top was a standard manoeuvre, and I seem to remember flying them during early OCU sorties - wonderful for building confidence in handling. We were actively discouraged from completing the second part of the loop because so many pilots had frightened themselves badly over the years, and most importantly severely frightened their navs! At any speed where the ac wasn't G-limited, the optimum turn performance was defined by the 'steady note' at 20 ADD. However at slow speed (eg top of a loop) the pitch rate generated at the steady note was pretty appalling, it was very easy to over-correct and the effect of gravity on ac acceleration on the back side of the loop was astonishing. It would have been very easy to feel that you were losing control of the situation. In practice, a disciplined adherence to maintaining the optimum ADD and transferring to the limit/target G would result in a perfectly safe return to level flight - but it used up a lot of sky! Another trick for recovering a feeling of control over what (allegedly) felt like a runaway train might have been to crack the (incredibly efficient) airbrake on the way down. All in all, it was a wonderful aircraft, especially in its element at low level, but with the performance to cruise (and maintain formation) at FL 390, AAR up to FL 330 (these figures based on personal experience - others may have done better/worse depending on fit/drag). A properly planned and well-flown display showed the aircraft off well - but it wasn't a fighter, and classic aeros, while fun and challenging to fly well, never really suited the Bucc. We had better things to do!

[Coochycool]

Thanks for the remarkably sensible replies so far.

Pity the South African mob isnt still on the go, could have tried to find out for myself!

Anyway, this is really just to bump the thread back up to the top and give my query best chance.

If anyone should happen to know the location of any ex Bucc crew maybe they could give them a friendly prod.

Cheers muchly

Coochy

[Coochycool]

Manandboy

Just beat me to it!

Thanks so much for the input, very interesting, must have also made for some interesting flying!

Cheers

Coochy

[Wander00]

CC - Son of an Observer from Vixens called Tuite just stayed in our gite so could probably put you in touch

[BEagle]

Many years ago a Spam exchange officer, who was something of an amiable redneck yee-hah cowboy (but a super chap), decided to try a 'curry' for the first time. When asked what he would like, he replied that he was from Texas, so was used to the hottest chilli-con-carne, so "Gimme the hottest ya got!" was his request.

He was duly served with a very mean Beef Phaal turbo-nutter GTi. When he'd recovered from the shock of his first mouthful of this beef-flavoured volcanic lava flow, he asked whether many other people had asked for it.

"Oh, yes indeed sir. But not many try it twice!"

Which brings me to the point about looping the Bucc. We were told not to - even though a nose-high roll off the top could lead to roll-yaw divergence, that was as nothing compared with the runaway train feeling due to the limited pitch authority available in the steady / steady-low ADD tone during the second half of a loop as the earth loomed large in the windscreen and anxious comments came from the rear seat....or so I'm told.

Some tried it, but not many tried it twice.

[Coochycool]

Appreciated but I wouldnt want to take up the mans time involuntarily, sounds like he's busy enjoying himself.

Course you could always just recommend Pprune, sounds like he'd have a decent contribution to make.

Specially since the one jet I like even more than the Bucc is the Sea Vixen!

BTW, Manandboy, no incrimination noted, apart from the "allegedly".:O

Cooch

[Coochycool]

Thanks Beags for further clarification.

Quite impressed a Bucc can get up to FL390 and stay there.

As you might gather I never got to fly anything quite so capable, so perhaps someone could also even vaguely enlighten me on how one might calculate optimal cruise altitude for fuel efficiency for any given type?

Are there any hard and fast rules/terribly sophisticated equations you can employ or is it just look at the dials and see what you get?

As for tanking, what generally dictates the level selected?

Someone just tell me to shut up if I'm getting tedious.

Insomniacs of the world unite, and we'll catch everybody else asleep.....

[chevvron]

When the S2's were delivered to Farnborough (1975ish) the crews did a lot of airways flying to familiarise themselves. London Control got a bit miffed as they cruised at about FL 260/280 at some 550kt true (don't know what mach no that would be) where the fastest airliners (Tridents in those days) only did just over 500kt, hence the Buccaneers quite often tended to overtake other traffic at the same level, requiring extra vectoring by the radar controllers as a visual overtake wasn't allowed!

[NURSE]

showed an Israeli the footage ITN took of the Buccaneers that went into Beruit to support British troops on the MNF he was extremely impressed.

[45-25-25]

Yes, I must confess to looping the Buccaneer - in my youth. It was on a detachment to Goose Bay. I had been led through a loop on a tail chase a month earlier in Cyprus so I knew it would work.

We started at quite a low height and I pulled very gently into the loop to make sure I gained as much height as possible, over the top I opened the airbrake fully and held the ADD steady note. In the vertical on the way down, with nowhere to go, my excellent Nav, an experienced man who had flown with the Navy, said for C----T's sake pull! To which I replied I am pulling! We bottomed 2,500 feet above our entry height. It was not an event I was proud of and I never attempted another one. The loop was not a cleared manoeuvre for good reason!:uhoh:

[thing]

Certainly seen them in the vertical evading Hunters during Taceval at Coningsby. Can't remember why we had Hunters defending the airfield when we had F4's.

[Courtney Mil]

Coochycool,

I think I can help a bit there.

perhaps someone could also even vaguely enlighten me on how one might calculate optimal cruise altitude for fuel efficiency for any given type?

Are there any hard and fast rules/terribly sophisticated equations you can employ or is it just look at the dials and see what you get?

Generally, there are graphs in the Operating Data Manual and in the Flight Reference Cards for a variety of fits (tanks, external stores, etc) which take into account fuel load. For shorter transits there are often rules of thumb based on your distance to travel on, say, recovery to base. Range speed and endurace speed also have an angle of attack associated with them. And, yes, some useful formulae - F3 recovery fuel = distance to base x 5.5 + 300 + Fuel on the Ground.

As for tanking, what generally dictates the level selected?

Simples, wherever the tanker was. They know the good altitudes for each aircraft type. For long trails, they would do intricate fuel plans to suit the receivers

Someone just tell me to shut up if I'm getting tedious.

Not at all. But if you do, I'm sure someone will. This is PPRuNe!!! :E:ok:

[Courtney Mil]

Can't remember why we had Hunters defending the airfield when we had F4's.

Cold War, Mate. The F4s would have been out there defending the UK, Hunters and Hawks used for point defence on key locations (airfields) as VFR short range fighters using guns and/or AIM9L where available. Better to have them up there doing something rather than sitting in the ground. One or two might have been lucky enough to get something. Nasty, evil Soviet bombers coming over here to attack our beautiful airfields and loval village pub. Not like our brave, determined, highly-trained bomber crews who risked life and limb to vapourize their wicked dens of satan. :ok:

Then they started putting MEZs round airfields and that rather spoilt all the fun. :(

[thing]

Ah, thought it might be something like that, thanks. It was just nice to see Hunter's being flung around.

[Rory57]

Buccaneers and Sea Vixens at Farnborough: loudest display I've ever seen.

flyby.jpg Photo by Fanjetuk | Photobucket (http://s6.photobucket.com/user/Fanjetuk/media/flyby.jpg.html)

[Pontius Navigator]

CM, did you ever see the Top Secret alternative war plans for the Hawks?

It was practised frequently in the guise of a Badger and two Kelt ASM on anti-shipping strike.

What all this practice amounted to was a covert training plan for your real anti-shipping strike package.

Two fully loaded Hawks tucked under a 360 Sqn Canberra, directed by a Shackleton with music from the Canberra, the Ride of the Valkyries would have been apposite.

While Boris was rolling around the deck in mirth and merriment, tears streaming down his face, the Buccs would have come in from the other direction.

[Pontius Navigator]

Rory, that's the one, thank you.

[BEagle]

Rory - when was that photo taken? I was lucky enough to have had a ride in the coalhole of a 'Vixen involved in the 1966 SBAC display!

Re. LAD, it could be great fun. I once tucked in behind an F-104 attacking Wattisham; roaring across Stowmarket in hot pursuit was epic sport! I also arranged an exercise where the 'defecting' Vulcan was briefed to do all the right things until past the Bloodhound min. range, then gear up, bomb doors open and accelerate across the aerodrome.... But the 2 F-4s escorting him soon put paid to that. Crewed by Jonthony and 'Mad' Major Tim, the Luftwaffe exchange pilot - Jon called that the Vulcan was long longer defecting, to which Tim called out "SHOOT ZE F***ER!!", which had the desired result.

Re. AAR, it's a compromise between limiting speeds for the tanker's kit, receiver handling qualities at AAR speeds/heights due to IAS/TAS ratio, available thrust at the IAS and altitude required, fuel onload rate and burn rates etc. Trail refueling bracket planning used to be a black art involving experience, bits of string and wet finger guesses. But that's sooo last century; nowadays modern tankers have onboard software to create bracket locations etc:

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a341/nw969/trail_zpsb18fb158.jpg (http://s14.photobucket.com/user/nw969/media/trail_zpsb18fb158.jpg.html)

Or perhaps I should say, some modern tankers do! The A310MRTT and CC150T have had this capability for several years now (and it's currently being developed even further) - but as for the Voyager.......:uhoh:

Hecho en España = no funciona!

[Rory57]

Sorry Beagle, can't say anything about the photo, I found it through google when this thread stirred memories of those great '60s Farnborough shows.
Must have been quite a ride for you but I guess I saw more of the display!

[cornish-stormrider]

STFU

This thread is worthless without pics - either of wenches or the banananananananana jet.
sadly I am but a yoof and never had the pleasure of working on such a man's aeroplane - i spent all my time on the F3 and the flying transit van.

your incessant questions about fuel and performace lead me to only one conclusion - you stole a bucc and are going to fly it on the quiet!!!!

I volunteer to be your liney.....

[Pontius Navigator]

My link at #7 would place the photo at the 1968 Farnborough display:

The first public display of the team was on May 9, 1968 at Biggin Hill Air Fair, follows by demonstrations at Brawdy, Yeovilton and Farnborough. At the end of the season the team flew coordinated displays with No. 809 Squadron display team “Phoenix Five”, which flew Buccaneers. At the end of 1968 the Simon's Sircus display team was disbanded.

From my log book that was 21/22 Sep 68 as we too did a display with the Spitfire and Hurricane. It was the same year the Atlantic crashed in to the hangar.

[walbut]

It was useful to find out that Graham Pitchfork is writing another book. I remember going to a lecture on the Buccaneer which he presented to the Brough Branch of the RAeS some years ago.
One of his most memorable comments was in the description of the original intended role of the Buccaneer in attacking the Russian capital ships. As he put it, 'We weren't planning just to blast a few holes in them, we were going to vapourise the buggers'

[smujsmith]

walbut,

That's interesting, looking forward to receiving my tome.

Smudge:ok:

[Banana Boy]

Yes, I looped the Buccaneer, but like 45-25-25, just the once!

End of first tour, overconfident and tasked with flying a Bucc on it's last trip before it was to be scrapped, I decided that there was no better time to risk an overstress. I was given the top tips by an experienced pilot: slack pull on the way up, once over the top, close the throttles, open the air brake, and keep pulling.

I'm still here!

[GeeRam]

Can't be too many photos around of a Bucc in the vertical......

http://www.spyflight.co.uk/images/jpgs/buccaneer/buccs%20climbing%20vertical.jpg

[45-25-25]

This photo of the Buccaneer in the vertical was taken on 30 May 1973 by a MOD Photographer a Mr Stevenson.

I was the pilot of the other Buccaneer so there were 2 in the vertical! We were actually airborne to be whipper in for a rehearsal of a Silver Sceptre HM The Queen's Birthday Flypast.

I have a photo of the Silver Sceptre formation 4 Vulcans in line astern the first with 2 Buccaneers on each wing tip, the second with 2 F4s on each wing and the final 2 Vulcans with 2 Lightnings on each wing. Sadly I am not sure how to attach it.

[CoffmanStarter]

45-25-25 ... would you like some help ?

See your PM's :ok:

Coff.

[sharpend]

But in NEAF we regularly looped the Canberra!

[BANANASBANANAS]

Haven't tried posting a you tube link before but this one shows a Buccaneer going vertical. Buccaneer - YouTube

[Courtney Mil]

Beautiful low level flying there, guys!

[CoffmanStarter]

Does one ask for permission to climb to rejoin the circuit :E

[monkeytennis]

Amazing vid, but I bet the original 'soundtrack' was better than KOL! :ok:

[smujsmith]

X2BANANAS,

Cracking vid. They're the blokes that used to part my hair on the Pan at Machrihanish, I'm sure. What a great aircraft, what brilliant flying. Respect.

Smudge:ok:

[Coochycool]

Terrific feedback guys, for some reason I'm unable to PM but special thanks to Ponsy Nav for his considerable trouble, most informative :ok:

Bit busy right now, fuller reply on standby. Keep it coming.

BTW, loadsa aviation on the box tonight if you channel hop across Freeview.

Cooch

[45-25-25]

Further to #34 herewith the photo of the Silver Sceptre Flypast with thanks to Coff for the Dual! Shame the F4 is out of position!!

http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae275/jhnthnfrd/MyScan1_zps72309262.jpg

http://http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae275/jhnthnfrd/MyScan1_zps72309262.jpg

[CoffmanStarter]

Now that's a cracking picture :ok:

Well worth the wait 45-25-25 :D Glad you got it sorted ...

Coff

[cargosales]

Amazing vid, but I bet the original 'soundtrack' was better than KOL! :ok:

Gawd that brings back memories. I must go and have another watch of it soon. And yes, the original soundtrack was/is considerably better !!

Actually that clip is a combination of two different films. The last bit is taken from "Buccaneer, The Last British Bomber" but up until 3'26" ish with the Bucc in the vertical it's taken from "Farewell Bucc" which was mostly shot in Gib, including the gorgeous slow-mos, low-levels and the ship attack (HMS Kent IIRC) but also has some of the final flights at Lossie with 208 even closer to the ground than normal.

I seem to remember that questions were later asked from on high about who exactly had been piloting said machines in the film but most unfortunately the cameraman had neglected to keep a log of exactly which bits of footage he had shot on which particular dates :E

Well worth seeking out if you can still find a copy anywhere :ok:

CS

[MPN11]

In those days we could put up 20 aircraft.
What now?

<whimper>

[Unixman]

You might prefer this extended version of the Gibraltar sequence ....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BunQvx4YsM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ztjKeKddnU

12 Squadron Buccaneers Exercise OPEN GATE 1978 (Part 3 of 4) - YouTube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAbCCR3V5rg



And anyway the music is better!

[GeeRam]

Great photo of the Birthday Flypast.......brings back lots of memories of being a child/teenager growing up in West London in the late 60's to early 70's and standing in the back garden on Trooping day to wait for the RAF flypast formation such as that to fly low overhead.

Sadly I have no photos of any except one fuzzy 110 print of the flypast from around '79 or '80 which had a similar multi Vulcan/others formation makeup.

[PURPLE PITOT]

Vangellis, Spirals! I was "treated" to that at least 100 times as a space cadet.:ok:

[Alber Ratman]

"Sprials" and "To the unknown man". Always will be linked to the Banana Jet.:ok:

The director and the composer of the music for this PR film, had a little collaboration a couple of years later..A film that won four oscars and was called "Chariots of Fire"

[Stevie B]

Somewhere... (I must clear out my garage!) I have an original photo of a TriStar and Buccaneer conducting AAR trials. Nothing too unusual in that, you may think.

However, the TriStar is the receiver in this case.

I think this was a Boscombe Down trial, either testing the TriStar receiving capability or the Buccaneer buddy pack which I believe was stowed in the bomb bay.

Will try to find and post the pic.

[ExAscoteer]

It's not 'spirals', it's 'Spiral'.

I still have the album from when my late Father was an Ops Officer on that Ex OPEN GATE.

[SASless]

Bow wave off the DC-10 must have been fun for the Bucc!

[PeterJG]

Good to see the photo of the Queen's Birthday formation. On one practice, we hit unexpected bad weather over Suffolk. As we entered cloud the leader (Vulcan) ordered "Majestic Formation BREAK!" Lightnings, Phantoms and Vulcans went up - we in the Buccs went down! (I was flying the previously posted vertical Bucc - good photo shoot!)

[Captain Radar....]

Interesting. So if the Bucc was difficult to loop what happened when the pull up to toss a weapon and depart the target area scenario took place?

I always thought that the toss bombing manoeuvre involved pulling up on the command from the strike sight until weapon release when the pull continued (as in a loop) until pointing in the homeward direction roll out immelman like and return to low level ASAP heading back home for tea and medals (or at least decontam and jammy doughnuts).

So if the upside down bit at the top of a loop was scary, how popular was toss bombing among Bucc crews?

[thing]

I would say it wasn't the upside down bit but the pull through in a loop that would have been half crown sixpence time in a Bucc. Roll off the top I imagine would have been fairly sedate.

[eaw]

Captain Radar

From memory (not always exactly accurate these days) the "4G pull" did not continue after weapon release but was relaxed and a rather rapid roll to 120+ degrees was initiated. The 4G pull was then re-established until the nose reached the horizon. Bank angle was then reduced to 90 degrees until 10+ degrees nose down when it was further reduced to 70 degrees. This was then maintained until the roll out heading (release heading +/-150?) was achieve when the bank was rolled off and the descent to an appropriate height continued.

This was a much more efficient method of getting back to an operational height than continuing "over the top" would have been.

[BEagle]

It was a fairly straightforward manoeuvre and was included as part of the Instrument Rating Test, flown entirely on instruments.

[Captain Radar....]

Thanks eaw. Makes sense. In the context of the original question of the post I guess the loss of energy continuing through the vertical into a roll off the top would have ended up with the aircraft in a more vulnerable position (height, speed, control authority and distance from detonation) than following the procedure you describe.

I was beginning to wonder whether my experience in the backseat in deci inverted at not very much height at all over the tops of ridges and rolling out into valleys on the other side had been more risky than it seemed at the time! Guess not, just a matter of maintaining momentum I suppose.

[Barksdale Boy]

Good to see Leckenbold looking in the pink.

[WH904]

Speaking of Buccaneer tankers, here's one I took many years ago:-

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y146/Shefftim/buccsone.jpg

[Courtney Mil]

A brilliant photo, WH904. The old buddy refuelling thing was such a great capability. I presume it meant that you could do the trail from the UK to Cyprus without tanker support. Just take it in turns to refuel each other all the way there. Excellent!

[BBadanov]

A brilliant photo, WH904. The old buddy refuelling thing was such a great capability. I presume it meant that you could do the trail from the UK to Cyprus without tanker support. Just take it in turns to refuel each other all the way there. Excellent!

Haha CM. But not as funny as you might think.
Years ago at the time of entry into service of the Fin, a Bucc tanker did accompany a Tonka from UK to Akrotiri for an FRA, and then RTB. Other tankers were involved, and the Bucc did the tactical tanking in and out, but was not to appear in Cyprus airspace!!

The Bucc crew naturally asked, "why don't we do the attack as well?"

Just like politics - was all for show, but perhaps showed what the oil useage rate was over 10 hours!

[t7a]

Not strictly true BB! Twas me what flew the tanker and we didn't ask to do the attack as well cos we got to spend the weekend in Cyprus while the Tonka had to go home! Another reason was that the pod was a bit limiting if you wanted to do any sort of attack profile! And actually it wasn't just for show - there was a serious purpose.

[cornish-stormrider]

Finally - some skanky pics of the banananananana jet - um, are they lost?

there appears to be some stuff under the wingy things.......
um, sky, thats it, sky - are you last and gone way up to see what you can see?

I thought bucc's lived in the weeds.
but the pics still gives I a full on robot chubby.......

[WH904]

Okay, down in the weeds it is... we didn't stay up there forever:)

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y146/Shefftim/bcc.jpg

[cobalt42]

...the Buccaneer buddy pack which I believe was stowed in the bomb bay.

S_B

The Bucc Buddy AAR Pod was mounted on the Starboard Inboard pylon position with a 'Slipper Tank' on the Port Inboard position. The pod was a FRL Mk.20.

To increase the available fuel off-load, a Bomb Bay Tank was sometimes fitted, not to be confused with the Bomb Door Tank, but the 'post-fit' leak check and fixes took an age.

I understand a certain NW aerospace(?) company are looking at a 'Buddy' fit for the Beurofighter TypHoon... don't know what pods of that size are available, though.

WH

A couple of cracking images... thanks for sharing them:ok:

[CoffmanStarter]

Lower still :ok:

http://www.vintagewings.ca/Portals/0/Vintage_Stories/NewStories-C/Lower%20than%20a%20snake/Lowdown88.jpg

In the 1980s and 90s, No 208 Sqn RAF were the experts in ultra low-level under the radar nuclear strikes. During the International Air Tattoo in 1993, to mark the squadron's 75th birthday, this Buccaneer S.2B was flown at an altitude of just 5 feet for the entire length of RAF Fairford's runway.

Photo Credit : Colin Smedley

[Just This Once...]

The gear is still traveling and almost fully up in that picture.

:ok:

[thing]

Didn't the Bucc have some really good ground effect and 'sit' on it at ultra low level?

[typerated]

don't think there is much ground effect happening at that speed!

[Rigga]

"The gear is still traveling and almost fully up in that picture."

Yep. The nose gear door isn't yet closed and the Tail Skid is still down. The Flaps, Wing & Tailplane, are still set for take-off. I assume they'd pre-selected Undercarriage Up and waited for the WOG Switch? (It was WOG in my day)

I really like this Pic.

[Archimedes]

I believe it's the Person Of Non Anglo Saxon Ethnicity switch these days....

[thing]

Didn't the Bucc have some really good ground effect and 'sit' on it at ultra low level?

At high speed?

[smujsmith]

Crikey,

As mere pond life ground crew, I doubt I would have the nerve to rely on an "ethnic" switch. Just got my copy of "Buccaneer Boys", so may be seeing a bit of this cracking jet in the next few days.

Smudge

[FODPlod]

Some cracking photos. Thank you. Here's one from the days of black (or navy blue) & white:

http://www.mcdoa.org.uk/images/Three%20RN%20Buccs.jpg

[Fg Off Bloggs]

Just a few points:

The Buccaneer Boys: Headlined by Graham Pitchfork but actually written by 27 Bucc Boys with a chapter each; one of which is mine!

From the flyleaf of The Buccaneer Boys:

Twenty seven aircrew from the RN, SAAF and RAF relate their experiences and affection for the Buccaneer. Arranged in chronological order, the book traces the history of the aircraft and the tasks it fulfilled. In addition to describing events and activities, it provides an insight into the lifestyle of a Buccaneer squadron and the fun and enjoyment of being a 'Buccaneer Boy' in addition to being part of a highly professional and dedicated force.

The introduction into service is fully described and there are chapters devoted to flying from the Royal Navy's aircraft carriers. Further chapters cover the development of the RAF's maritime tactics and the deployment of two squadrons to RAF Germany in the overland role. The aircraft's stunning success at Red Flag and Maple Flag exercises flown in North America, which took the USAF hierarchy by storm, are covered in detail. Two chapters are devoted to the intensive, but little known, Bush War operations by 24 SAAF Squadron in the border areas of southern Angola.

Two USAF exchange officers who flew Buccaneers relate their experiences and the aircraft's deployment for the Lebanon crisis and the reinforcement exercise to the Falkland Islands is examined. The introduction of new air-to-surface anti-ship missiles is covered before the Buccaneer left to go to war in the Gulf where it distinguished itself providing laser marking for the Tornado force in addition to carrying out its own precision bombing attacks.

This lavishly illustrated book concludes with accounts of the aircraft's final days in RAF service and reflections on its impact on maritime and overland air power.

There is much, much more besides that within these 220 pages superbly written by Buccaneer aircrew and edited by Graham Pitchfork.

The book is available now from either the publisher (Grub Street) or from The Aviation Bookshop the latter of whom has signed copies available.

To order a copy of this book please contact either of these available outlets as follows:

Grub Street - Grub Street (http://www.grubstreet.co.uk) or +44 (0) 207 924 3966

Aviation Bookshop - Home Page (http://www.aviation-bookshop.com) or +44 (0) 1892 539284

The Aviation Bookshop
31-33 Vale Road
Tunbridge Wells
Kent
TN1 1BS

Now to LOOPING THE BUCC! The Aircrew Manual is specific viz:

Only half loop manoeuvres are permitted. The maximum entry altitudes (1013Mb set) using a minimum entry speed of 530 knots can be obtained from Figure 2. The conditions set out are applicable to any external stores configuration and any stores in the bomb bay with the BDT open or closed. It can be seen that at ISA conditions at 48,000lb AUW the maximum entry altitude is 3,000 ft and the minimum entry speed is 530 kts.

That stated, as a U/T GIB, I flew my Fam 1 with a very experienced RAF pilot who had cut his teeth with the FAA at Lossie! After he'd shown me the various departure procedures, done a bit of high level manoeuvring, reached 39,000ft to show me how high it would go, used the airbrakes and closed the throttle to show me how rapidly it could descend to the wave tops, accelerated at LL to max chat of 580 kts and slammed out the airbrakes to show me how quickly it could stop in flight he ventured to suggest that now he would show me a loop. Conscious as I was of my virginity in what up until then had been his world and sure that this was the 'trick question' I protested about its forbidden status in the RtoS! I received this reply:

'Shut up, Bloggs, watch this and keep calling out the height to me!'

I recall we entered the loop somewhere about 5,000ft, pulling like a b*****d! I have no recall at what height we topped out despite my chanting of every 1,000ft as we passed through it. However, and without the power to recall our bottoming height I do remember that it was somewhat below our entry height! The whole thing passed in a blur as it was the first time that I'd experienced quite such a period of sustained g!

The reason that the Bucc was not cleared for looping was because its mainplane, like the Javelin, would shield the tailplane as you went over the top giving a corresponding lack of stability and a probable flick!

I survived and went on to gain 2500 hrs on Buccs before moving to Tonka (which could loop but that was about all it could do in terms of service ceiling, Radius of Action and load carrying in comparison to the mighty Bucc).

Bloggs:ok:

PS. To whoever thought that the wing might be blown at high level, BLC only came on when the flaps, aileron and tailplane droop were selected to 30-20-20 or 45-25-25 in the landing configuration (or has that already been pointed out!)

[WH904]

Of course, Buccaneer fans will know that ultra-low take-off runs such as the one illustrated above, were quite common. Tucking the landing gear away while the aircraft was still barely off the ground looks pretty impressive in any aircraft, but the big, bulky Buccaneer was quite a show stopper. I guess the important point is to make sure there's enough airspeed to do it. I recall watching a Red Arrows pilot attempt the same trick, and that ended with an ejection and a big mess.

One more for the collection:-


http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y146/Shefftim/Bigbucc.jpg

[LOMCEVAK]

I have to say that I used to loop the Bucc quite often. You had to be smooth and precise with respect to pitch control but a loop could be completed consistently and predictably. The entry speed was as for a roll-off-the-top, about 550 KIAS, followed by a 4g pull. As speed reduced and ADD increased, you would eventually get to buffet onset which you held until 20 ADD was reached. Maintaining this, as speed reduced the buffet ceased (buffet onset AoA was a function of Reynolds number, essentially true airspeed) and you had to be very smooth in pitch because the tailplane was very powerful and aerodynamic pitch damping was low such that any sharp aft stick input could result in a departure (as it could during any 20 ADD manoeuvres). As the nose hit the horizon you selected idle and maintained 20 ADD to buffet onset and then held the buffet. It was possible to play the last 30 degrees in order to level off at entry height, albeit about 150 - 200 KIAS below entry speed. The first time I tried it I selected 1/2 airbrake at the top in addition to idle and I levelled 2000 ft above entry altitude so I knew that it could be flown safely.

In addition to the low speed problem of maintaining 20 ADD, the major issue was the high acceleration during the second half. This was because even at 20 ADD the induced drag was low so it did not really handle like a swept wing aircraft whereby pulling lots of buffet/AoA bled energy and kept the speed down. In addition, the entry speed was high so on a straight kinetic-potential energy interchange you are going to be pointing vertically down at high speed with a very high rate of descent; a slightly slack pull would result in a monstrous altitude loss. Ironically, you were better off entering at a lower altitude because for the entry IAS the TAS would be lower and thus your vertical down speed woud be lower. Therefore, I normally entered at 5000 ft.

I used to finish off my Bucc display (which did not include a loop!) with a vertical roll to roll-off-the-top. With practise, I was happy to enter at a minimum speed of 530 KIAS. If I did not make this entry speed I would fly a straight roll-off-the-top, and from an incremental reduction in entry speed during practise I was comfortable to enter from a minimum speed of 480 KIAS. Note that this was entered at close to mean sea level with a light fuel load in a clean aircraft.

I did once work up a display in the Bucc that started with a 1/2 horizontal 8, entering at 480 KIAS and topping at around 8000 ft. However, at such a high TAS you only had to be very slightly steeper than 45 deg on the way down and you lost a monstrous amount of altitude. This sequence also featured a gear down barrel roll but that is another story. Sadly, the requirement for that display never materialised.

And then the story of the Tristar plugged into the Bucc tanker - that can wait for another day.