Last Squadron Leader OC of an RAF squadron?

[FB11]

When was the last time the RAF had a Sqn Ldr in command of a fighter/bomber squadron and was the XO of that unit also a squadron leader?

FB

[smujsmith]

Just a guess, could it be 207 (Reserve) Squadron RAF ? Certainly had a Sqdn Ldr OC in 2012, not too sure of the rank if his 2IC. I'm sure bigger and more knowledgeable brains than mine will come up with a more accurate answer.

Smudge

Ahh, sorry. In 2012 they would not have qualified as they were not fighter/ bomber at that time.

[D120A]

I don't have exact data to hand, but I think the answer to your question is 'the early 1960s'. Hunter sqns were commanded by a Sqn Ldr and (we don't have the eXecutive Officer structure as such in the RAF) his 2 flight commanders would have been Flt Lts. The first Lightning sqns were commanded by Sqn Ldrs but these posts were soon upgraded to Wg Cdr (by about 1963 I think). V-force bomber sqns were, if I remember correctly, always commanded by Wg Cdrs. Once again, the 2 flights within such sqns were led by Sqn Ldr flight commanders.

Lower down the food chain (then...) helicopter sqns were commanded by Sqn Ldrs until No. 72 Sqn built up its Wessex numbers and was re-established to Wg Cdr in 1966. Whirlwind sqns remained under Sqn Ldr command until the type was replaced by Puma (in the TacSH world) with Wg Cdr bosses.

Hope that helps, and it should at least flush out the many facts I have undoubtedly got wrong.

[CharlieJuliet]

OC 5 Sqn (Lightnings) was a Sqn Ldr when I joined in Apr 66. Stayed as Boss until replaced by a Wg Cdr in Jan 67.

[Pontius Navigator]

OC 45 was a Sqn Ldr and became OC 35 as a wg cdr and topped, I believe at AM Sir John. As OC 45 that would have been late 60s. Possibly not last Sqn Ldr OC as the sqn disbanded in Feb 70 though he might well have been.

XIII and 39 may have had a Sqn Ldr too, late 60s

[high spirits]

In answer to your first question. 84 Sqn still has a Sqn Ldr boss....

[smujsmith]

Whether it has any relevance of course, 617 from inception was commanded by a Wing Commander. It seems that Rank title has long had little relevance to RAF organisation. As an aside, what is the highest ranking OC of a Squadron currently ? I mean a flying Squadron of course.

Smudge

[Easy Street]

You may see occasional short periods when a squadron boss gets promoted from wg cdr to gp capt, and receives his substantive rank slightly before his onward posting (the same kind of thing sometimes happens to station commanders, giving periods of 1* command at stations that normally only have a gp capt). These are anomalies and the current highest rank of established squadron command appointments is wg cdr.

You are right about 617 Sqn having a wg cdr boss from its inception. By 1943 that was the established convention in Bomber Command due to the large size of its squadrons. As noted above, some fighter squadrons retained sqn ldr bosses into the 1960s, but as fast jets became increasingly complex, the number of techies grew to the point that standardisation across the board with wg cdr bosses (and sqn ldr EngOs) became desirable.

Today's misalignment of rank titles with structure is all wrapped up in capability. It would be quite possible to separate one of today's fast-jet squadrons into 2 separate squadrons, each with a sqn ldr boss and a single shift of engineers under a flt lt EngO. That single shift would not be able to sustain 24/7 flying operations - but then neither did fighter squadrons between 1914 and 1950ish, since those sqns were either "day" or "night" fighter squadrons, depending on their aircraft type. Today's fighter squadrons can sustain 24-hour operations as a stand-alone entity, which makes them the equivalent of a "wing" of day- and night-fighter squadrons in WW2 terms.

Similarly, ground-attack squadrons deliver so much more capability than their WW2 equivalents that it would be quite possible to split them into 2; each half would still deliver a punch worthy of the title "squadron".

The reason why we have a small number of wg cdr-led squadrons instead of double the number of sqn ldr-led squadrons is partly administrative efficiency, partly uniformity of command (fewer young firebrand bosses to keep in check!) but primarily about force packaging - you can deploy a wg cdr-led squadron somewhere and it will deliver 24/7 operations due to the capability of modern aircraft and the increased number of engineers available to sustain day and night operations in a larger unit.

[Rigga]

Hmmm...

" (we don't have the eXecutive Officer structure as such in the RAF) "

There's a lot of rodneys out there wearing this title that might now be wondering what it is they're supposed to be called?

[Basil]

Well, I'm ex Merch, Army and RAF and I have never heard the term 'Exec Officer' used within these organisations. I am, of course, aware that it is used in the USA.

[Easy Street]

It seems like most RAF squadrons have adopted the term "Executive Officer" to describe one of the flight commanders, usually the most senior one, who is the deputy squadron commander and (often) responsible for all the niff-naff jobs like the squadron budget, overseeing the work of the adjutant and admin staff, making sure the other flt cdrs are doing the jobs the Boss gave them at the last execs meeting, ensuring that KPIs for fitness etc are met...

It's a different beast to "XO" as understood in the US and is probably just an affectation. Flt Cdr (Admin) would be a more accurate description, since "Deputy Squadron Commander" is a pretty pointless designation - the man in charge in the Boss's absence is, after all, the one whose name goes in SROs when he goes on leave!

[Union Jack]

Just to add to the mix, in the Royal Navy the second in command of a ship of frigate or destroyer size or above (and indeed nuclear submarines) has been known as the Executive Officer for at least the last 50 years. In larger ships such offiicers of Commander's rank will also be known by officers as "the Commander" or, more familiarly "the Bloke", whilst in smaller ship,s if a Lieutenant Commander or Lieutenant, he will be known as the First Lieutenant or, more familiarly, as "Number One" by officers, or as "Jimmy the One", or just plain "the Jimmy".

Hope this helps......:ok:

Jack

[Fixed Cross]

Depends on your definition of "fighter squadron". The three Hunter squadrons resident at Chivenor were commanded by Sqn Ldrs up to the lamented departure for Brawdy in 1974. Also the Hawk Sqadrons at TWUs had the same command structure.

Best job in the RAF at the time (but I'm biased)

[haltonapp]

In answer to the question, both 8 and 208 squadrons at Muharraq had Sqn Ldr CO's in 69.

[Pontius Navigator]

Basil, I spend as much time at sea as I can afford on my pension and P&O has executives too:

Executive Purser, Executive Chef, Executive etc etc.

[sharpend]

In reply to 'Fixed Cross' the Squadron Commanders of the Hawk TWU squadrons did indeed hold the lowly rank of Sqn Ldr (I was one!).

And they were real fighter squadrons (mine was 151 (F)) and had an air defence war role working with RAF Phantoms.

[cuefaye]

And they were real fighter squadrons


Bit of a stretch sharpy :ok:

[Basil]

Easy Street, Union Jack & Pontius Navigator, as they are alleged to say in the legal profession: I am much indebted for your guidance :ok:

I plead never having been in the RN* and most of my Merch ships were wee 500ft banana boats :)

* It was a FAA ad for helicopter pilots which triggered the notion to apply to the RAF (having decided that lobbing off ships was far too dangerous) :)

[MPN11]

Tengah 1970
20 (Hunter), 45 and 81 (Canberra) all run by sqn ldrs.
74 (Lightning) had a wg cdr, as did 60 & 64 (Javelin) in 67.

[reds & greens]

Coming away from St Mawgan in 2006, I seem to recall OC 203 Sqn being a Sqn Ldr?

[scorpion63]

"XIII and 39 may have had a Sqn Ldr too, late 60s"

Both had WgCdr from 1968 to when I left in 1971.
60 Sqdn had a SqdnLdr Navigator as OC from 1973 to 1976, in fact an over abundance of SqdnLdr's I seem to remember!

[Jobza Guddun]

The XO post on a FJ sqn does just that, they are NOT flight commanders. It's been like that since 2002 that I know of, likely even longer.

[Motleycallsign]

When 1310 Flt became 78 Sqn @ MPA the boss was a Sqn Ldr, not sure when they departed and reformed at Benson tho'.

[Easy Street]

The XO post on a FJ sqn does just that, they are NOT flight commanders.

Wrong. All of the XOs on current GR4 squadrons are de facto flight commanders with (typically) 6-8 aircrew under command.

[FJJP]

ISTR that 39 Sqn, based at Wyton in the 90s had a Sqn Ldr Boss...

[A2QFI]

228 OCU Coningsby (Shadow 64 Sqn?) was commanded by a Sqn Ldr in 1975 and was actually larger in terms of crews and airframes than the Main F4 Sqns on the base.

[Chainkicker]

ISTR that 39 Sqn, based at Wyton in the 90s had a Sqn Ldr Boss... It certainly had one when it was the PRU. Smashing chap (A-R) but cant for the life of me remember if it still carried over when it became 39 :\

[jayc530]

The airforce could save its self some money if Group Captains commanded a Group, a Wing Commander a Wing, a Squadron Leader a Squadron and a Flight Lieutenant a Flight as the name suggests leaving the Flying Officers to do the flying and other duties. It might sort out the top heavy air force we currently have and reduce the rediculous Air Force List we currently have.

[MPN11]

Philistine!! :mad:
Stone him :eek:

How do you envisage scoping with the semi-instant flt lt with a random degree? Are you suggesting starting at plt off? Oh, didn't we do that once?

What went wrong? Oh, WW2, probably ... With (no disrespect) 25 yo wg cdrs. Great people for their time, of course.

Being serious ... Now you have to start with the titular CAS, and create a pyramid from the top down to ensure there's a flow of people to that appointment. That actually requires appointments in the ranks you object to ... There's no time to climb the ladder unless you do that. Especially with Graduate entry, who are already "old".

[jayc530]

Surely that's how it should be, appropiate appointments from a single guy at the top down, in the right numbers with the correct experience, only promoted when they are worthy of it rather than the current system we have of jumping through hoops for promotion.

The clue is in the title of each appointment, if you are able to lead a Squadron, you are a Squadron Leader. If not, you are not promoted. Nothing to do with age or qualifications.

[Jobza Guddun]

Easy Street,

I stand corrected. I just have recollections of Boss, XO, OCA, OCB and OCTrg. Must've spent too much time in the Belfry.

[teeteringhead]

Surely that's how it should be, appropiate appointments from a single guy at the top down Ah, but what rank should he be? How small do we have to become, not to have a 4-Star CAS?

Facts:

1. I joined an RAF of about 150 000 personnel - with a 4-Star CAS. I now serve with a 35 000-ish RAF - with a 4-Star CAS.

2. 35 000 in uniform about equates to the Met Police - who have 11 ranks in total from Constable to Comissioner (and that's 2 more than most forces).

3. From AC to ACM, the RAF has about 19 or 20 ranks.

Discuss.

[Finningley Boy]

I've just been leafing through Martin Bowman's book "Lightning Strikes Twice" he states that the C.O. of 23 Squadron at Leuchars as of 15th September 1972 was a Squadron Leader. But I don't believe any fully constituted Operational Squadrons were co'd by any other than the rank of Wing Commander by then. The rank gradually replaced Squadron Leader during the war as it was deamed worthy for commanding the new four-engined Bombers i.e. Lancaster, Halifax, Stirling and what have you! Hence Wing Commander Guy Gibson. All the B.O.B. Fighter Squadrons were led by Squadron Leaders.

FB the 1st

[Finningley Boy]

Ah, but what rank should he be? How small do we have to become, not to have a 4-Star CAS?

Facts:

1. I joined an RAF of about 150 000 personnel - with a 4-Star CAS. I now serve with a 35 000-ish RAF - with a 4-Star CAS.

2. 35 000 in uniform about equates to the Met Police - who have 11 ranks in total from Constable to Comissioner (and that's 2 more than most forces).

3. From AC to ACM, the RAF has about 19 or 20 ranks.

Discuss.

Teateringhead,

You must have joined in the 1960s, but you say you are still in?

FB I

[thing]

228 OCU Coningsby (Shadow 64 Sqn?) was commanded by a Sqn Ldr in 1975 and was actually larger in terms of crews and airframes than the Main F4 Sqns on the base.

? Mike Shaw was OC 228 in '75 and was def a WgCo.

You may be thinking of the Lightning Training Flight which had a Sqdn Ldr OC from 75 to when it shut in '87. Not the same Sqdn Ldr obviously...

The last one was Clive Rowley who was OC when Baz Lennon banged out over the airfield during a display workup; leading to the famous call 'I've broken that one sir, can I have another.'

[teeteringhead]

FB

good spot! Joined (very young!) in 1968.

Note my choice of words: I now serve with ... currently RAFR (CC) working full time with Air Cadet Organisation - still going to work on an RAF Station every day in uniform! (and there goes my incognito to a few more mates.....)

[jayc530]

My point is the total number of commisioned ranks we have, far too many for the size of the current air force, a quick look at the Air Force List reveals the ridiculous number of Sqn Ldr and Wg Cmd appointments we have.

I'm not against Air ranks, they have their place but we desperately need to addess the numbers of commisioned officers.

The SDSR was supposed to address this but I doubt very little has or will ever change.

[jayc530]

As I thought, no further comments.

[thing]

Turkeys don't vote for Christmas mate.

[Pontius Navigator]

My point is the total number of commisioned ranks we have, far too many for the size of the current air force, a quick look at the Air Force List reveals the ridiculous number of Sqn Ldr and Wg Cmd appointments we have.

I'm not against Air ranks, they have their place but we desperately need to addess the numbers of commisioned officers.

Jayc you are right in principle.

Modern rank inflation may well have started with the V-Force. An all commissioned crew demanded at least a flt lt captain in charge of the BOMB. A 23-yr old flt lt captain was one of the stars in the recruitment of the time.

Now Easy Street says an XO has 6 or 8 aircrew under him. In the 60s a V-force flight commander had 53. This increase may be directly attributed to the Hodgekinson which recommended up to 300 overborne sqn ldrs in the GD branch. This saw V bomber sqns go from one sqn ldr for 11 crews/53 aircrew to 5 sqn ldrs for 10 crews/44 aircrew - the same as your present FJ figure.

At that time you had CAS, a coterie of VSO on the Air Force Board, and AOCinC for Bomber, Fighter, Coastal, Transport, Flying Training, Tech Training, Maintenance, Signals Commands, plus 2TAF, NEAF, MEAF, and FEAF. You then had 1Gp, 3Gp, 11Gp, 12Gp, 18Gp, 19Gp, 23Gp, 25Gp, 224Gp and probably others I have missed. They all had SASOs etc, so plenty of career opportunities for command progression.

But to revert to ranks matching posts you would have to realign pay as well.

PO=P3 in a civil airline. FO=FO/P2. Flt Lt=Captain. Sqn Ldr=Flight Checker. Wg Cdr=a division?. Gp Capt=Head of area operations.
AOC is now your 1* in charge of operations and CinC becomes the CEO.

Could their pay be afforded?

On ranks though, what of the RNZAF? Their highest organisation is a Group. Their CAS is a 2* but they only have 3200 personnel and 640 officers.

The RAAF head is a 3* and has 14300 personnel.

Proportionally the RAF is larger.

The other question is why so many senior officers at any given rank. The answer there is our politicians desire for seats at the top table so the military has to increase its star count to match that of her allies.

The forces can't operate in a vacuum the structure is moderated by external influences, so we see personnel on international duties upranked to give them credibility with her allies.

[jayc530]

So the air force will continue with Gp Capt who don't command Groups, Sqn Ldr who don't lead Squadrons... and there are questions why we are in such a broken mess.

Gp Capt nif naf and trivia, Wg Cmd AB&C and Sqn Ldr tea, white one sugar.

[Davef68]

Wasn't the rationale behind the effective scrapping of 5* ranks that the Services were too small to justify a pyramid that high?

[Archimedes]

Were it not for Field Marshal Wilson (and to a lesser extent Admiral Beatty), the RAF might very well have used the Army ranks it began life with, which'd have ended the multiple posts and threads I've seen here and on the Army means decrying the fact that Sqn Ldrs don't lead squadrons before they began.

Genuine question here, for I don't know the answer - but how many air forces of any notable size have squadrons (or equivalent formations) under the command of a Sqn Ldr equivalent?

As for FB11's question -assuming that he means a squadron equipped with a fighter or bomber type and serving in a front-line (as opposed to OCU/TWU/OEU) role, 8 Sqn had a Sqn Ldr boss until October 1970, which may make it one of the last fighter squadrons with a Sqn Ldr in command.

I think - I'd have to check, though - that this makes it one of the last squadrons to be in that position, if not the very last. Of course, this omits instances of squadrons being commanded by squadron leaders on a temporary basis, and the already-alluded examples of Sqn Ldrs commanding a squadron with a fighter or bomber numberplate, albeit not directly in that role.

[MPN11]

Archimedes ... See post #19. When did 20, 45 and 81 wrap up at Tengah?

(Crippled by iPad, but assume you have the references there!)

(Edit = ahhh, all finished in Jan/Feb 70. No 8 Sqn appears to be the winner!)

[Pontius Navigator]

jayc, did you read all that I wrote?

International equality of ranks is now the major driver for rank inflation.

Regarding 5* appointments, which terminate in a Lordship, we were the only western power, I think, that continued to appoint officers to 5* rank whereas the cousins only appoint a 5* in time of war.

[Pontius Navigator]

Cleaning up my hard drive I found an article dated 2010 regarding the last Shackleton crash, the article then talked about 204 Sqn, the largest sqn in the RAF with 200 groundcrew, 230 aircrew, and commanded by a sqn ldr. It disbanded in Apr 1972.

[Roadster280]

Isn't the real answer that it has nothing to do with the units under command, and is simply that RAF officer ranks follow RN ones (ignoring Plt Offr and FgO)

Flt Lt = Lt
Sqn Ldr = Lt Cdr (exception, but a Major in the cavalry is called a sqn ldr)
Wg Cdr = Cdr
Group Capt = Capt
Air Cdre = Cdre

The progression of Flt>Sqn>Wg>Gp doesn't follow (and really, hasn't ever followed) what they command in terms of units. How many RAF stations with a Gp Capt have had two multi-sqn flying wings under command?

Of course the above ignores silly titles like Admin Wg, Ops Wg etc on a station.

[Deepest Norfolk]

39 (1PRU) Sqn has a S/L boss in 96 or 97. JC was the last S/L boss and Geoff Telford (Wg Cdr) took over from him.

DN

[onehunglow]

I got from Cpl (acting Sgt) REME in' 84 to Sqn Ldr OC 78 Sqn RAF in '94.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Rank inflation is not just a RAF issue. I think you will find it in every Western Military.
In the good old days Squadron commanders only had to create operational capabilities. Now they are so loaded with non war fighting admin BS they need to be indoctrinated at staff college and have all the other “career broadening” postings before they can be trusted with a unit command.

Unfortunately rank inflation is a self licking ice cream cone. None of the existing senior officers are going to admit that they are over ranked for their positions.

[PPRuNeUser0211]

Now Easy Street says an XO has 6 or 8 aircrew under him. In the 60s a V-force flight commander had 53. This increase may be directly attributed to the Hodgekinson which recommended up to 300 overborne sqn ldrs in the GD branch. This saw V bomber sqns go from one sqn ldr for 11 crews/53 aircrew to 5 sqn ldrs for 10 crews/44 aircrew - the same as your present FJ figure.
.
Important to note at this point that personnel numbers in a FJ squadron are really irrelevant to the question. What the question interminable question should read is 'how many people is a sqn ldr flt CDR in charge of on a FJ/RW/ME/Rpas sqn. On RW domestically it is somewhere between 24 and 32 people and double that when deployed in charge of engineers (a single SENGO carries that in the UK, which has been the case for as long as I can remember on all types). Given that rotary aircraft have crew numbers more similar to a vulcan than FJ that would seem to be a better comparison.

If we take the above as sensible, then you'd be hard pushed to not make a FJ flt CDR a sqn ldr simply for career parity.

Aside from that, if everyone really was bothered I'm sure we could "re-brand" and change the name at every rank down one level so that we fit the WW1 model of a flying squadron. That doesn't feel like progress though....

​​​

<Edit> FWIW I agree with the post above about 24hr capability of a sqn in the 21st century Vs a historic flying "wing". There are many blunter types who command "squadrons" with wing commanders in charge of "BS wing" etc. It feels sensible on the units I've worked on that the sqn bosses are at rank parity with those types.

[Just This Once...]

Why would anyone link the name of a rank to the size of a squadron? Even if it was linked just what kind of role would we even be talking about - logistics squadron, engineering, admin, flying, ops, ATC, Int et al?

As an aside back when I was a sqn ldr flight commander I had just over 100 personnel, mostly aircrew. It also just happened that you had to be at least a squadron leader to run the squadron at home or on ops. Many moons ago I ran a small collection of aircraft in the Falklands. We were known as a 'Flight', as was the other fixed wing flight next door. The third flying unit was rotary, similar size and commanded at the same rank but was known as 78 Squadron. None of it really matters.

[Ninthace]

As a sqn ldr, I had a sqn of 750 souls, but they did not aviate, so I suppose that does not count,

[57mm]

Mike Wilson was OC 98 Sqn as a Sqn Ldr at Cottesmore when it disbanded in Feb 76.

[Wensleydale]

I've just been leafing through Martin Bowman's book "Lightning Strikes Twice" he states that the C.O. of 23 Squadron at Leuchars as of 15th September 1972 was a Squadron Leader. But I don't believe any fully constituted Operational Squadrons were co'd by any other than the rank of Wing Commander by then. The rank gradually replaced Squadron Leader during the war as it was deamed worthy for commanding the new four-engined Bombers i.e. Lancaster, Halifax, Stirling and what have you! Hence Wing Commander Guy Gibson. All the B.O.B. Fighter Squadrons were led by Squadron Leaders.

FB the 1st

OCs of Bomber Squadrons at the start of the War were Wing Commanders...they were single/twin engine types then.

[Underbolt]

Now that this thread has been necrobumped, can we expand the question to the other Services? My best understanding is that FAA FJ squadrons still had Lt Cdr COs until some point in the 1980s, and all (?) Army Air Corps squadrons are commanded by Majors. Is the latter because an Army squadron is a smaller unit, being the equivalent of a Cavalry squadron which is akin to an Infantry company, and adminstratively part of an AAC regiment (which is confusingly equivalent to an Infantry batallion which is smaller than a regiment)? Or is it just that they've avoided rank inflation longer than the rest?

[SLXOwft]

In the Lt Cdr CO days it was normal to have other Lt Cdrs on the squadron, the authority went with the berth not the rank. I do remember suddenly realising nearly all NAS COs were now commanders but having long returned to civilian life I wasn't aware of the reason. It clearly made sense under JFH that the CO of 800/801/NSW had the equivalent rank to the RAF squadron COs, so I wondered if it spread from there, especially when a number of squadrons were taking on the roles and aircraft of others that were stood down - anyone know the real reason?

[SLXOwft]

Just been looking through some partially complete CO lists for 1(F) to 50 squadrons and my initial thoughts are that there was a clear change around the time of the formation of Strike Command, as from the late 60s squadrons like 1(F), II(AC) and 43(F)changed from Sqn Ldr to Wg Cdr, 22 still had a Sqn Ldr CO in 1976 and possibly later (but not an F or B unit).



Additional Note re 204: then Sqn Ldr later Air Cdre Leppard's predecessors as CO back to 1955 were all Wg Cdrs - there are quite a few instances of Sqn Ldr COs between long lists of Wg Cdrs who were in post for a few months but in this case it was over a year.