Woman RAF officer joins top military brass

[Sun Who]

SAC to AVM - impressive.

BBC News - Woman RAF officer joins top military brass (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-23799187)

I don't know the lady but I wish her well.

Sun.

[lj101]

Good for her - congratulations ma'am.

[BEagle]

My heartiest congratulations, Elaine! Thoroughly well deserved - as was your CBE in the New Years' Honours!

[OldnDaft]

Many congratulations - older members may remember her hubby "Stringy" who served on 17(F) Sqn when Elaine was PMS at Bruggen. Lovely couple.

[Fg Off Bloggs]

A great girl and well worth the promotion. I knew her well at Bruggen and served on 17 with Stringy whilst she was OC PMF (not PMS) as a flight lieutenant. I also met her (and Stringy) recently at a thrash in the RAF Club. Hadn't changed a bit, still very humble about her position then as a 1-Star and wondering what all the fuss was about!

Well done, Mrs Stringy!

Bloggs:D

[Secret1]

A former SAC in the RAF Club? :rolleyes:...;)

Many forumers must be choking at breakfast this morning? :bored:

[tomdocherty72]

Congratulations to AVM West, reading the other post it is well deserved. She is not the first senior female officer in the Air Force to reach this rank though. I know some will say I am splitting hairs but females in the RAF were previously in the WRAF before it was absorbed and before that in the WAAF. before that it was the air branch of the ATS and originally the WRAF in WW1. Here is a little history of female air force ranks through the period:

Initially, the WAAF used the ATS ranking system, although the director held the rank of "Senior Controller" (equivalent to Brigadier in the British Army, Air Commodore in the RAF) instead of "Chief Controller" (equivalent to Major-General, Air Vice-Marshal) as in the ATS. However, in December 1939 the name was changed to Air Commandant, when the ranks were renamed and reorganized, other ranks now held identical ranks to male RAF personnel, but officers continued to have a separate rank system, although now different from that of the ATS. From February 1940 it was no longer possible to enter directly as an officer; from that time all officers were appointed from the other ranks. From July 1941 WAAF officers held full commissions. On January 1, 1943, the rank of Air Chief Commandant (equivalent to Major-General, Air Vice-Marshal) was created with the director's appointment to that rank.

On July 1, 1939, Jane Trefusis Forbes was made Director of WAAF, with the rank of Senior Controller, later, Air Commandant. On January 1, 1943 she was appointed to the rank of Air Chief Commandant with its creation. On October 4, 1943, while Forbes toured Canada, assessing the Women's Division of the Royal Canadian Air Force, she was relieved by HRH Princess Alice, Duchess of Gloucester, who had been head of the WAAF since 1939, again with the rank of Senior Controller, then, Air Commandant, being gazetted to Air Chief Commandant on March 22, 1943. Forbes retired in August 1944, and the post of director was given to Mary Welsh, who was appointed Air Chief Commandant. After the war, the rank of Air Chief Commandant was suspended and in December 1946, the final director of WAAF, Felicity Hanbury, was appointed.

Just thought it might be of interest. The BBC news (and the RAF publicity machine) got it slightly wrong - again.

Anyway, well done Ma'am!
:D:D:D:D

[BEagle]

Many forumers must be choking at breakfast this morning :bored:

Only over such a stupid and unnecessary comment, Secret1....:rolleyes:

[Joeeey]

She played the game well. And she was lucky to have Paul.

[gayford]

Don't know the lady but huge congratulations.
Isn't it great to see an Air Officer who is not:-
a. A pilot
b. A male
c. A graduate

Well done ma'am.

[Scottie66]

Congratulations are undoubtedly well deserved but I do find it somewhat odd that some one can rise to such a rank in today's RAF without a single operational medal?

[Basil]

Congratulations, ma'am.
I believe we had the pleasure of speaking to, then, Air Cdre West at the unveiling of the Bomber Command memorial in June last year.

[Basil]

A former SAC in the RAF Club? ...
I wonder if they know that they have a member who is a former REME Craftsman? ;)

[critter sized]

Worked with Elaine in the then RAFIO at Benson some years back. Nice person and an exceptionally good operator. Promotion richly deserved and the right person for that particular appointment.

[Easy Street]

Isn't it great to see an Air Officer who is not:-
a. A pilotYou must have missed the numerous navigators (including the current VCDS), countless engineers, doctors and even the occasional padre. I agree that it is good to see 'the best person for the job' appointed, regardless of branch.


b. A maleAgreed. There is also another female 1* who I suspect has a chance of further advancement - a fighter controller before you ask!

c. A graduateI don't see that as a good thing or a bad thing. It's just a thing, not worthy of the tag 'great'. The Army and Navy stuff their starred ranks with graduates precisely because they are adept at negotiating the 'old school tie' network, which (like it or not) is how much of the real business gets done in the murky world of Whitehall....

[ExRAFRadar]

And why we are in the sh*te

[ksimboy]

While I'm sure the promotion is richly deserved, the cynical side of me wonders how much bearing the recent, much publicised discrimination case against the RAF had on the decision. I would love to think for once the RAF has done the right thing, but !!!

[rarelyathome]

Kismboy,

absolutely none! Elaine is a great operator and has got this on merit. Best person for the job.

[BEagle]

I would love to think for once the RAF has done the right thing....

You may rest assured that it most certainly has.

[ksimboy]

I'm glad to hear it Beags, I wasn't trying to disrespect the lady at all, just thinking out loud as to how some may view it. No offence was intended.

[Cows getting bigger]

Well done Elaine - one of the Good Guys. :D

[BEagle]

Understood, ksimboy.

Incidentally, Stringy tells me that Elaine has been very touched by the many kind words of PPRuNe contributors today.

[ralphmalph]

SAC to AVM......only the most cynical would say that happens by chance and circumstance.

Most would say thats hard bloody work....dedication (even if its not your flavour or dedication)

Hats off!

Nice to see an ex ranker doing well.

[kintyred]

Congratulations to the lady....how many 2* are we down to now?

TomD72. Thank you very much for the info. You always were a mine of information. I'm about to trawl through all your other posts in search of similar gems!

[Wander00]

Well, as a former member of the 2 winged Master Race, and an admin sec later I offer my hearty congratulations. Best RAF boss I ever had was a woman (Aunty Joan). To do the job well and discharge family responsibilities as well - Brilliant and a shining example to all young men and women. Very, very well done (Lucky not to have been at IOT a year later - might have got me as a flight commander and that could have blighted a brilliant career).

[SOSL]

Many congratulations to the AVM, it can't have been easy! It isn't easy for anyone to reach that rank.

Some years ago a young lady Fg Off, ex Cpl Rigger, and straight out of IOT, was given a holding posting on to my team (me with a newly acquired scraper). She really pulled her weight and did a b****y good job for us before she got her first proper posting.

Within a few short years she outranked me and good for her too.

Rgds SOS

[Wrathmonk]

To do the job well and discharge family responsibilities as well

Because of course no serving (modern) RAF father has to do that do they:ugh:

[sitigeltfel]

SAC to AVM.

Did she have a head start by missing out the first two rungs on the ladder? ;)

[Tankertrashnav]

From the BBC report...


since joining the RAF as an aircraftswoman aged 17.


...although admittedly they made the usual mistake of inserting a superflous 's' into the name of the rank. Seem to recall my rank was AC when I was at OCTU.

Never made AVM though :(

(And with the greatest of respect both to the lady herself and her husband - she's a bit of a looker, too. Navs marry all the prettiest girls ;) )

[taxydual]

Takes them a wee while to find them though.............;)

[RileyDove]

I guess in a few years this kind of appointment will not even feature in the press -women have been at the highest level in business for years - the RAF still has a little way to go.

[NutLoose]

Is it dead man/women's shoes or does it mean the top heavy pile just got a little heavier?

Congratulations though.



..

[Al R]

# Wrathers - indeed.

Well done to AVM West and indeed, to anyone from the ranks who gets that far - inside every Private's backpack/WRAF's handbag is a.. well, you get the picture. I hope she has considered her annual and lifetime (pension) allowances mind!

[Lima Juliet]

Riley

I guess in a few years this kind of appointment will not even feature in the press -women have been at the highest level in business for years - the RAF still has a little way to go.

Quite...I am really pleased for AVM West and it sounds like she has the respect of many (I don't know her, but I'll accept her references! :ok:). However, how much longer do we have to put up with "first female to" headlines? Surely, we're long past all of this now? We've come a long way since Emmeline Pankhurst (thank God) but we must stop the constant publicity - if nothing else, if I were female I would find it a bit patronising!

As for the campaign medals, she is not alone as there are many currently serving (of all branches) who have never been in the position to qualify for one. Still, does she need to have one if she is an infra-whizz as so many have pointed out? I would rather have a competent individual at the helm of DIO than a scribbly with a chest full of campaign gongs who's run A1/J1 Ops in a comfy air conditioned portacabin somewhere! :ok:

Congratulations, AVM West from a fellow officer :D

LJ

[smujsmith]

As someone, who could have the absolute profile of an old bloke who never got modern. Congratulations to this delightful and worthy lady. Regardless of anything on this planet, a person should be both respected and rewarded for their humanity and capability. Old bloke or whatever, I delight in the chance to shoot down neersayers and doubters. I'm sure most on this forum welcome this announcement.

Smudge

[gijoe]

The Op Gong issue will not matter in about 5 years when there will be noone without one from somewhere or other.

Our lady (and I have no doubt she is talented and able - you don't get there without being so) will be amongst the last without one as there will be today's generation queueing in the wings...and it is a talented queue.

I have 5 Op Gongs - but there was no way I was talented enough to be an AVM.

Well done AVM!

G:ok:

[Lima Juliet]

Gijoe

In 5 years time we'll all still be in and aiming at a retirement date of 60 instead of 55! Anyway, there will still be plenty without gongs and also no 'choccy' jubilee ones either!

LJ (4x Op and 2x Choccies and bar!)

[gijoe]

How about an RV in the corner of the mess at Snoringville trying to do 4 Across being grumpy??

...dribbling...thinking that life 'ain't the same as when I joined up'...dribbling...looking at the 2 servicable frames out of 37...dribbling...discussing how rubbish AFPS24 is compared to AFPS15 let alone AFPS05 let alone AFPS75 etc...

My gongs will have long tarnished but I had a great time!

Well done again AVM.

G:ok:

(This is meant to be humourous and not a dig at you!!)

[BEagle]

The fact that Elaine might not have a campaign medal is, frankly, completely and utterly irrelevant. She has made it to AVM at quite a young age purely through her own talent and ability.

There is an increasingly corrosive attitude around these days, which can be described as "You ain't done sand = you ain't done $hit"; such a blinkered attitude needs to be restrained. I first came across the very same attitude some 31 years ago, when I encountered some poisonous little thruster of a Sqn Ldr who was desperate for a posting to the South Atlantic - for no other reason than "If you haven't been to the Falklands, you're no-one in London"......:rolleyes:

[The Old Fat One]

I left the RAF with 3 or 4 gongs, not sure how many because I kinda lost interest.

One was for doing my job and keeping out the poo for 15 years. One was for barbecues on Ascension Island. The one's I never claimed were for the bosses birthday and some shoot off/piss up in a hot place that I was never at.

...and we give the spam's grief :eek:

Well done to the maam in question and well done pprune for clearing up the family discussion as to why I was confused as to her being reported as the RAF's first female 2 star.

[Lima Juliet]

Gijoe

Now you've done it, you've sewn a seed for AFPS24...:eek:

LJ :ok:

[high spirits]

Congratulations Ma'am, a promotion well deserved.

There is (in spite of previous posts) no corrosive attitude towards desert gongs versus no gongs - aside from the usual banter at dining in nights.

Promotion to Air Rank is to be congratulated on merit. Entirely seperately, Op Gongs are for those who deserve them (and some Klingons who are posted to theatre to ensure that we all wear hats and exchange a bottle of water for a cold one in the fridge). Who gives a toss either way? Well done

[NutLoose]

What's with all this gong fetish, go join McDonalds you can get 4 stars there.



..

[gijoe]

...and that is exacly my point. Today it matters...tomorrow it won't.

A talented and focussed lady, without doubt.

Well done. Tomorrow it won't be newsworthy.

G:ok:

[gijoe]

'There is an increasingly corrosive attitude around these days, which can be described as "You ain't done sand = you ain't done $hit"; such a blinkered attitude needs to be restrained. I first came across the very same attitude some 31 years ago, when I encountered some poisonous little thruster of a Sqn Ldr who was desperate for a posting to the South Atlantic - for no other reason than "If you haven't been to the Falklands, you're no-one in London".'

...but Mr BEagle let us be serious.

Life in defence has changed an awful lot in the last 10 years and you need to be in touch with it.

Bottom Line - Ranks above SO1 have no idea about what is needed at the delivery level. Bust. Sand is not everything but it is better than NI alone.

Understanding what has happened on ops in the last 10 years is important ...BECAUSE WE NEED TO BE READY FOR THE NEXT BIG SHOUT.

(SHOUT mode off)

G:ok:

[gijoe]

'Gijoe

Now you've done it, you've sewn a seed for AFPS24...

LJ'

For £500 a day + expenses I will write the policy!

Gotta be cheaper than G4S or Serco???

G:ok:

[Secret1]

Many of the chaps over on ARRSE are less than impressed by Mrs West's promotion.

And they probably don't feel too happy about the former AC/LAC/SAC now running the show in the South Atlantic.

:D

[Lima Juliet]

G

You couldn't do much worse - the NEM and AFPS15 seems to be working towards a Grade 'A*' screw up!

By the way, I would venture that things have changed much in ~20 years since I did my first campaign; I didn't learn much more on the subsequent visits back and forth! However, prior to that, things have changed a lot (IMHO).

LJ

[AndyPandy068]

Many of the chaps over on ARRSE are less than impressed by Mrs West's promotion.

Arrse is largely full of whining clique civies these days so not a lot to worry about.

[FODPlod]

...However, how much longer do we have to put up with "first female to" headlines?...

When the "first" whatever is no longer apposite? Same applies to "only".

[SOSL]

My apologies to AVM West and PPruners for going off topic but..............

Secret1 you have made 18 posts in a little over 3 years; not much of a contribution really.

Your last 2 posts, on this thread, have been pointless invective; no logical thought and no sensible argument.

Why bother?

Rgds SOS

[TomJoad]

Don't know the Lady but well done Ma'am, that is a career to be proud of:D:D:D

Counters the accusations over the past days on other threads that the RAF is less than a meritocratic organisation.

[Lima Juliet]

It seems that "first" and "only" doesn't quite cut it though in this case - count the rings on her No 1s...

http://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/images/online_exhibitions/Portrait-TF.jpg

This is Katherine Trefusis-Forbes (as previously mentioned) from the Women's Aux Air Force. She was a 2-star.

[FODPlod]

I neglected to add my own congratulations to AVM West. She must be exceptionally competent, both within her branch and without, to achieve her current prominence from such humble beginnings.

[Lima Juliet]

...then there is Mary Welsh...

http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/arts/yourpaintings/images/paintings/rafm/large/lne_rafm_fa01284_large.jpg

So, whilst I am delighted for this officer of high regard, I am not so delighted with having the "first female to" rammed down my throat by the incredibly ignorant media lot (FFS the RAF is only 95 years old - it can't be that difficult!).

LJ

[Lima Juliet]

Then there was Jean Conan Doyle (the daughter of Sir Arthur) who was also a 2 star...

http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/arts/yourpaintings/images/paintings/rafm/large/lne_rafm_x004_0240_large.jpg

So should the headline read "New Head of DIO goes to well respected officer" - now that would be gender fair, don't you think?

[TomJoad]

I feel your pain Leon.:\

[lj101]

LJ

Your diatribe that she isn't the first should perhaps be pointed out to CDS, as he just may have been the chap that wanted all of this media attention for Ma'am West, and her promotion success.

As a FTRS officer your DII account can surely reach him.

[FODPlod]

LJ - Isn't the point that AVM West is a member of the regular RAF, not a separate auxiliary force or service? Otherwise, by your reckoning, each of the 17 Directors of WRNS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women%27s_Royal_Naval_Service#List_of_Directors) qualified as a Royal Navy 2* despite having belonged to a separate service prior to amalgamation.

http://www.wrens.org.uk/graphics/about/dame_vera_laughton_mathews_b.jpg


Mind you, the Royal Navy has had its own woman 3* for some years: :)

http://www.wrens.org.uk/graphics/about/hrh_the_patron_of_aoq_and_lt_faye_arend_ADC_RN_aow_90th_phot _A.%20Reynolds_RN_Crown_Copyright_MOD_2010_b.jpg


Despite sounding rather clumsy, perhaps "first woman 2* in the regular RAF" would suit you better?

[Lima Juliet]

FOD Plod

Semantics, old bean, semantics. Would you care to define 'Regular' - there are many full-time WAAFs and many highly decorated (I've met some in a rather select Club in Knightsbridge).

The Women's RAF disbanded in 1920 and the WAAFs were its replacement along with the Nursing Service. The WRAF did not form again until after the war and then finally everything was blobbed into the RAF.

Now if we were to cherry pick like you suggest, then the RAF should not be celebrating the 100 year anniversaries of our Sqns (which were RNAS and RFC originally) that we have so blatantly trumpeted over the past 3 years or so (including RAF jets with anniversary painted tails). You can't have it both ways old chum :ok:

So in my reckoning the headline should read either:

"Talented officer is appointed Head of DIO" - removing all traces of equality and diversity spin.

Or "Female officer Elaine West appointed 4th ever 2-star in RAF"

Everything else is spin and lies...

IMHO

LJ

[Al R]

Leon,

You reckon that long eh?!

Gijoe

Now you've done it, you've sewn a seed for AFPS24...http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/eek.gif


LJ http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

[Lima Juliet]

PS. If we're into trumpetting firsts then why didn't we have "First Navigator to 4-star rank" (Simon Bryant in 2010) and "2nd ever Navigator 4-star heading up new Joint Force Command" (Stuart Peach). So this 'spin' is sexist in my opinion when we are supposed to be equal. The fact that she is female should have no bearing on it.

Now the fact that she appears to be highly rated, professional and deserved of 2-star rank (according to most on here), then that is what the headline should reflect; not the incorrect fact that she is the first female 2-star in HM's Air Force.

Now, if she were to reach 3-star, now I agree, that would be a first! :ok:

LJ

[Lima Juliet]

Al

We can but hope. It depends if Nu-Labour get in next time around and spend like billy-ho!

LJ

[TomJoad]

PS. If we're into trumpetting firsts then why didn't we have "First Navigator to 4-star rank" (Simon Bryant in 2010) and "2nd ever Navigator 4-star heading up new Joint Force Command" (Stuart Peach). So this 'spin' is sexist in my opinion when we are supposed to be equal. The fact that she is female should have no bearing on it.

Now the fact that she appears to be highly rated, professional and deserved of 2-star rank (according to most on here), then that is what the headline should reflect; not the incorrect fact that she is the first female 2-star in HM's Air Force.

Now, if she were to reach 3-star, now I agree, that would be a first! :ok:

LJ


Oh come on Leon get over this. Look like it or not, disagree with it you may but the fact remains that females are under-represented in the UK workplace, especially so in the higher echelon posts. So with respect to the news release (spin as you see it) the fact that she is female has every bearing on it. Every day I have an uphill battle trying to convince the lassies in the science classroom that they should peruse STEM careers every bit as the boys as they are just as capable. If stories like this help then where the hell is the harm - we need more of these not less. Just like the female GE story a few weeks back.

The fact that we don't publish with the same vigour "First Navigator to 4-star rank" is that being a Nav is a lifestyle choice not something your are born to!:ugh: So please, just celebrate the good news will you and hope that it may inspire some other ladies/girls that maybe they should strive for such success. She is far better than the X factor role models chasing their celebrity god.

[Courtney Mil]

Oh I love PPRuNe. No matter how good the news, someone will always find a reason to complain. Hang on, just like my former employee.

Anyway, congratulations Ma'am. Keep doing good work. (Wish we had a salute emoticon)

[TomJoad]

Found this, on seconds thoughts more like Benny Hill!

http://www.sherv.net/cm/emoticons/hello/naughty-salute-smiley-emoticon.gif (http://www.sherv.net/emoticons.html)

[Lima Juliet]

Tom

I'm 90% with you, but I disagree that spinning stories like this does gender equality any good at all. I know of many females colleagues that have turned down being paraded in news stories such as this (such as the first woman to get 1000hrs Fast Jet). They know how damaging this can be amongst their peer group if they are to be accepted for who they are - a felow human being with equal rights and a shared skill set.

Over my 25 years I have seen positive recruitment of females significantly damage their relationships with their colleagues. For example, the first female aircrew got many more 'flex' hours than their male peers - sometimes to 200-300%. Now that is not equality. Neither is the fact that an 18 year old female has to achieve the same RAF Fitness Test standard as a 54 year old male. Again, that is not equality. Now, when something is newsworthy (ie. a Nav getting 4-star) and it doesn't make the headlines, but a 4th female to get Air Force 2-star gets a mention, that again is not equality.

If we truly want to rid the last bastions of misogynistic behaviour from males in the workplace then we need to desist in the spin-doctoring of females in the work place for being female. Treat them as equals and for the merit of their skills not their gender.

I say again, the headline should have read "Talented RAF Officer is appointed Head of DIO" - gender should not be brought into it. All this should have stopped when we had a female Prime Minister some 70 years after Sufferage; enough is enough.

Finally, I am delighted for AVM Elaine; from what I have read it would seem richly deserved. I am also delighted to see that there is Light Blue at the helm of DIO. As I said before, she has my congratulations as a fellow RAF Officer.

LJ

PS. Is Navigator a "life choice"? I thought all of us were selected for natural abilities (that we were born with) and then streamed at OASC to the aircrew branch that would fit them best? :ok:

[North Front]

I am afraid I am with LJ on this one... we are living in an enlightened age and the RAF is better than this. First gay squadron commander? First black two star? First asian..... you get my drift. If we are a meritocracy then this is not remarkable... nor should it be. Congrats to the AVM West and great news that the DIO has a talented leader... and great that the RAF can contend for such top slots.

On the medals front... well... the phrase "everyone has to do one in rank" seems to have been trotted out by my poster quite a lot... and latterly, those postings have been far more general in nature than aircrew specific. In fact, I would have thought an infra specialist would have been vital in Afghanistan.... particularly considering our work in NTM-A... and also with the PRTs?.... just sayin'

[TomJoad]

Leon again I agree but let's see if we can close that 10% then. I wasn't suggesting for one second that the AVM had been selected under any positive equality policy; without question she earned that position. I know that is your position as well but I think it worth stating to remove any ambiguity.

Ok with respect to female staff shunning being the "poster girl" for the equality bandwaggon; again, I fully agree with both your observations and opinion. I also shared those experiences where I saw some very capable female officers coming under pressure to be the face of RAF equality. But that's not the point I was making. There really is a genuine need to bring to the attention of young girls in this country that these careers are open to them and that they are equally capable. Indeed, they themselves want to compete on an equal playing field - they will argue that most vociferously. So this is not about positive discrimination - at least that is not how I see it. I honestly see the story for what it is: a good story, a story with a positive message that hard work and effort pays off, and yes a story that may inspire some of the brightest talent that this country has in girls. Now this is the point where I declare my stake in this argument. Yes as a teacher of a STEM subject I'm always alert to these stories, but for my own daughters I am passionate about getting that message through to them. So yes - less of the artificial positive discrimination - right person for the job - and if that happens to be a lady then sing it from the rooftops because we desperately need the role models.

[TomJoad]

On the medals front... well... the phrase "everyone has to do one in rank" seems to have been trotted out by my poster quite a lot... and latterly, those postings have been far more general in nature than aircrew specific. In fact, I would have thought an infra specialist would have been vital in Afghanistan.... particularly considering our work in NTM-A... and also with the PRTs?.... just sayin'

I hesitate to comment on this - it's a bit of a shabby discussion. Look when the great sandpit tour kicked off not every rank had a post requirement - particularly the more senior ranks. So quite understandable that some of our senior officers don't hold these - nothing whatsoever to do with them. If you wear a medal other than for valour then thank your poster for that. I'll probably upset a few folk with that but hey ho medals are for heros not for eating pizza. In my opinion, feel free to disagree of course.

[Cows getting bigger]

For those of us who joined before the various sandpit excursions and the small skirmishes in the Balkans, operational deployments were few and far between - Northern Ireland and that was it. Generally speaking, the most impressive ironmongery was worn by chefs, MT drivers, SAR-Boys and some of the SH daredevils (ever wondered why SH boxes above its weight at the highest echelons?). Meanwhile, the FJ chaps would seek solace in the occasional DFC/AFC awarded for surviving a mid-air with a bird. :)

Do we really judge capability by counting the number of 'attendance' medals? How............. American. :{

[Tankertrashnav]

Meanwhile, the FJ chaps would seek solace in the occasional DFC/AFC awarded for surviving a mid-air with a bird. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/smile.gif




DFC only for enemy birds, of course. Friendly birds would get you the AFC ;)

[Dengue_Dude]

Well, the absolute best of luck to her.

She may well have more cojones than most of the men. The women that I flew with (generally) had to be twice as good as the men to be considered an equal.

She can't do any worse than the blokes have . . .

[Lima Juliet]

Tom - I think we shaved off another 5 or so % there. I completely agree with role models and I think that AVM West should be held up as role for both females AND males - she had a humble start as an Other Rank, started in one of the less operational branches (Admin/Pers) and got a commission and now she is a 2-star. I believe that if we want to push the message to young females from now on then it should be the job of people like yourself (a teacher) and not the press headlines. Otherwise, I fear that we play into the hands of misoganysts who exclaim that "she probably got there because of her gender/looks/behaviour and/or positive discrimination".

I believe it is the right time that poster girls and "female/women appointed as" should cease.

Dengue-Dude - I agree, once in the perdominently all-male 'sink or swim' world of a front-line sqn, the females had to prove their worth much harder to a bunch of sceptical males. However, it didn't help when some were given such an easy ride compared to their male counterparts in the early days of flying training - the RAF/MOD were so desperate for headlines in those days that we even had a female student aircrew officer who was afraid of the dark (and once they discovered this they still tried to push her through!). This was at a time when more than 5 hours of extra training (so called "flex") would get a male student chopped and some females were getting 20-50 hours extra "flex" to grab the headline.

LJ

[TomJoad]

Leon, I would only add that to push the message I need examples, real world examples, ones that shine brighter than X Factor graduates.

You are right of course that the real praiseworthy element here is her journey to the top having started as an SACW - as you say pertinent to both males/females. That is talent and hard work at play. We closed a good bit of the gap Leon - I'll settle for that. Cheers fella.ok:

[Dengue_Dude]

Dengue-Dude - I agree, once in the perdominently all-male 'sink or swim' world of a front-line sqn, the females had to prove their worth much harder to a bunch of sceptical males. However, it didn't help when some were given such an easy ride compared to their male counterparts in the early days of flying training - the RAF/MOD were so desperate for headlines in those days that we even had a female student aircrew officer who was afraid of the dark (and once they discovered this they still tried to push her through!). This was at a time when more than 5 hours of extra training (so called "flex") would get a male student chopped and some females were getting 20-50 hours extra "flex" to grab the headline.

Yep, I was teaching on the Herc OCU around the time the ladies appeared. One was outstanding and passed on huge merit, the other one passed but was average (and no shame on that before it's misinterpreted). But it's tough for them too, being in a male environment and subject to the 'policy decisions' and the subsequent resentment from your peers cannot be easy.

I suspect MoD know that the 'pass at any cost' was in fact an 'own goal'. There are a lot of ladies out there with oodles of talent and honest ability, they don't need to 'change the rules' just to accomodate the also rans - it's dengegrating and disrespectful to those who make it on merit alone, rather than gender.

[Lima Juliet]

Tom/Dengue

Agreed all around - :ok:

LJ

PS. I'm glad that we haven't descended into the muck spreading on Arrse and E-Goat, though! :eek:

[PlasticCabDriver]

I think this photo emerged in about 2008/9 ish:

http://www.aviationnews.eu/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/Merlin_crew-600x450.jpg

Back in NI in the mid-90s there was an all female crew on Pumas, but the three of them refused point blank to do any of the "first female to..." for the very reasons alluded to above.

[thing]

But then there's Al Murray...

7tPTeYuBT_s

[Basil]

the other one passed but was average
meh, sounds like me. Used to love the 'If you're below average yer chopped' bit.
So that means that 'average' is now halfway up the 'above average' bunch. :confused:

[Baehr]

Females are under-represented in the workplace and males are under-represented in Labour wards. (In hospitals, I'm not talking politics.)

So what?

She is the first female to make 2-star rank in the Air Force and for that she deserves congratulations.

One or 7 people have flown across the Channel since Bleriot did so, but he's still famous for being the first.

[Lima Juliet]

She is the first female to make 2-star rank in the Air Force and for that she deserves congratulations.

But there lies the problem, she isn't the first to make 2-star - the media are telling porkies (as usual).

LJ

[lj101]

Prior to Air Vice-Marshal West’s promotion, the highest rank held by a regular serving female officer in the modern day RAF was Air Commodore. The highest ranking female officer in the Navy has been Commodore and the highest rank achieved by a woman in the Army has been Brigadier.

As briefed by source;

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/the-rafs-first-female-air-vice-marshal

[Cows getting bigger]

I suppose we could have the argument about the WAAF, WRAF and RAF; different T&Cs etc etc. I personally don't recollect a female RAF officer of 2 Star rank.

[Lima Juliet]

As I said earlier in the thread. Up until 1994 there were no women in the RAF, because they were in the WRAF until 1920, no women at all between 1920 and 1938 (apart from the Princes Mary's RAF Nursing Service which has been going throughout from 1918 to present day), the ATS in 1938, the WAAF from 1939 until 1949 and the WRAF from 1949 to 1994. All the these made up the Air Forces of Great Britain, just like the Royal Navy, Royal Marines, etc... Make up the Naval Service of Great Britain.

From what I can see there have been 4x 2-stars serving full-time and also a 4-star who was Princes Alice who was the CinC of the WRAF until her passing. Now if there was a WRAF or WAAF these days then this latest 2-star would have been definately in it, as they no longer exist she is in the RAF. "Semantics" I hear? Yup, but she is most certainly not "the first female to make 2-star in the Air Force" and the others were all full-time and definately not part-time reserves as some seem to be insinuating.

LJ

PS. Once again, I am not patronising, be-littling or devaluing AVM West's fantastic achievement, it's just that headlines are misleading and is spinning a story that is not true.

[Genstabler]

SASless is really plumbing the depths of unnecessary bad taste and offensiveness these days. Pity. His posts used to be worth reading. Male menopause?

[threeputt]

Anyone got Elaine and Stringy's e-mail details? please PM me if you have.

Jerry Gegg

[BEagle]

Geggy - DCO. See PM.

.

[rockyDC]

Small point but there were women in the RAF prior to 1994 - all the doctors and dentists were RAF and definitely not WRAF!!

[MPN11]

Fortunately I spent my 30 years in a Branch where women were normal (as in simply other human beings who did the same job as the blokes).

Indeed, back in the early 90s (as Branch/Trade sponsor) I responded to a letter asking about female quotas. I was very happy to be able to respond that "the ATC Branch and Trade has no quota ... We take the best man/woman for the job."

I was surprised to note that others had quotas. We managed to amortise officer training before the ladies managed to trap a handsome member of aircrew (I believe there were some) before departing the fix :cool:

[Wrathmonk]

We managed to amortise officer training before the ladies managed to trap a handsome member of aircrew ....

There was a good reason for that....boy, the shelves must have been big in ATC ;):E

[5 Forward 6 Back]

Rather than complaining that she's not the first 2-star in the RAF, modern or otherwise, can't we just celebrate the fact that an evidently well-liked and talented RAF officer is currently the most senior woman in the armed forces, royalty excepted?

[MPN11]

Rather than complaining that she's not the first 2-star in the RAF, modern or otherwise, can't we just celebrate the fact that an evidently well-liked and talented RAF officer is currently the most senior woman in the armed forces, royalty excepted?
Not really, as the RAF was broadly gender-neutral, IME, apart from the Master Race of course. She just happens to be a good chap with a lumpy jumper, and I would say no more than that. :cool:

There was a good reason for that....boy, the shelves must have been big in ATC
There were the Good, the Bad and the Ugly … and the Rather Overweight. But IME very few utter dogs. The Flying Prevention Branch tended to attract ladies with personality and an affinity to aviation. And, apart from one incompetent cow, I never had any problem with them - from LAC upwards.

As a bit of "reverse polarity", I 'acquired' an ex-Admin Sec as a first-tourist flt lt ATCO - a very late transfer of Branches. She was under confident at first, so having shovelled her through the training mill I gave her a few months - and then selected her for training as a Watch Supervisor. She protested … "I'm a first tourist" I wasn't interested … she had the brains and the maturity. Some 3-6 months later, she was a superb Watch Sup. Cheers, Liz :ok:

[SOSL]

Wot Courtney, baff and Genstab said!

Rgds SOS

[lj101]

Wot Courtney, baff said

Bless, male menopause too? Let me guess, all of you short in stature, >1 wife?

[LeggyMountbatten]

If it's all about best person for the job, I look forward to reading about AVM West getting her third star in a few years on posting to Air Sec, replacing AM Wiles' replacement...or is first non-aircrew Air Sec even more difficult than first(ish) woman AVM...

[Climebear]

If it's all about best person for the job, I look forward to reading about AVM West getting her third star in a few years on posting to Air Sec, replacing AM Wiles' replacement...or is first non-aircrew Air Sec even more difficult than first(ish) woman AVM...

?

Air Sec is a 2-star and the current incumbent is not aircrew.

AMP&C is a 3-star and aircrew.

[Wensleydale]

we are living in an enlightened age and the RAF is better than this. First
gay squadron commander? First black two star? First asian..... you get my
drift.


Unfortunately, government departments have not just to be even handed with equality - they have to be seen to be even handed with equality, hence the way this news story has been promulgated. I suppose that the most derisory example of this was whenever joint management glossies were released with the photographs of four serving officers on the front cover: the RAF officer was black, the army officer was female, leaving the reader to guess whether it was the naval officer or the marine who was gay.

[LeggyMountbatten]

Climebear

It's a fair cop...didn't do my staff work thoroughly. Think I was getting Air Sec and AMP confused....

As AMP seems to have become a dual appointment with Deputy Commander Air Command then always aircrew.

Maybe Air Sec for her next tour...she's at least one tour left (51).

The wasted talent in years gone by is a crime in retrospect...there was an amazing ADSecPol in the late 70s (married to a Rock) but ISTR forced to leave when family started. Asked about returning mid 80s and told that she'd have to return on demotion to sqn ldr and that would be it.....

[SOSL]

No wot I said was

Wot Courtney, baff and Genstab said!

Blimey I thought you were my mate.....there's no such thing as the male menopause because men don't have a mens....l cycle. Motor cycle, bicycle, unicycle and even life cycle perhaps.

Still congratulations to AVM West.

Rgds SOS

[Cows getting bigger]

I see that another fine officer has been promoted to the one-star ACOS Trg role in 22Gp. Not aircrew and not male!

[LeggyMountbatten]

So now working for the AVM much criticised by the ET chair in the discrimination case on another thread.....

[Lima Juliet]

New ACOS Trg is a cracking officer whom I know.

However, also subject to the same gripe of no campaign medals as Air Traffickers rarely deploy (although one did work for me in the sandpit a couple of years ago).

Should a small level of front line operational experience exclude you from the starred ranks by not being able to discuss/think at the strategic level about ops from a position of experience?

LJ

[Lima Juliet]

PS. Just had a PM from someone, so I thought I would clarify. I'm not digging at individuals regarding their op experience. However, I am asking the questionof whether we should ask our strategic leaders to have significant hands-on op experience? The fact that a large proportion of air traffickers have not deployed very much is not a dig at them - they have had a very important ops support task to do here in the UK.

I've served around Air Traffickers in the Falklands, Afghanistan, Iraq and the Balkans. Often it is their specialisation that lets them down as it is normally not easily transferrable to control in other country's airspace.

I've often thought we send too many non-op types to staff college who end up being starred ranks and their knowledge of our core business (airpower projection) is woefully thin - again, this is not a dig at any particular individual on this thread!

LJ

[iRaven]

we send too many non-op types to staff college who end up being starred ranks and their knowledge of our core business (airpower projection) is woefully thin

I agree, we send lots of Pers Spt, Air BMs, Suppliers, Rock Apes, RAFP, Flt Ops and others to Advanced Staff College and there's only usually 1 gusting 2 starred posts for them to fill - what a waste indeed.

iRaven

[Mahogany_Bomber]

ACSC attendance is for reserved for those demonstrating the potential for promotion to Gp Capt, the number of Air Rank appointments per Branch is therefore irrelevant.

Service on ops can only be of benefit to the professional development of any serviceperson but it doesn't necessarily follow that lack of op experience is detrimental.

[iRaven]

Mahogany

Course Aim
To prepare selected officers for high-grade appointments at OF4/OF5 level and potentially above, by developing their command, analytical and communication skills, and by providing a broad understanding and knowledge of joint military operations in the context of an integrated approach, and of defence and security as a whole.

You are of course technically correct, but a lot of good operators don't get ACSC as they don't have the "reach" to 1-2 star (I know as I used to work in Manning). Which is a bit pants as a lot of branches that attend don't have this "reach" to start with!!

iRaven

[alfred_the_great]

The solution could be to open the number of Air Ranks available to non-"Operators"......

[Mahogany_Bomber]

We could start by identifying what competencies we require for each rank/role. Then we could select, train and post individuals in order enable them to obtain the correct mix of skills, knowledge and experience to best prepare them for every stage of the career. Or we could just continue to stovepipe people by branch and job title and ignore the idea of best person for the job.

[SASless]

As the RAF downsizes....are there being made reductions in the numbers of Star Ranks commensurate to the reduction in over all manning? Or....would such reductions stymie promoting the necessary qualified people to those Ranks in order to have them available for some large War mobilization need?

[CoffmanStarter]

I thought this was a good piece from Sky News, with AVM Elaine West, that's just been released ...

Sky News AVM E. West (http://news.sky.com/story/1177323/british-armed-forces-could-be-run-by-a-woman)


In her first interview since being promoted, Air Vice-Marshal Elaine West told Sky News the military is modernising to mirror society and insisted the UK is not out of date by preventing women from fighting on the frontline.

Well played Ma'am :D

[Training Risky]

In her first interview since being promoted, Air Vice-Marshal Elaine West told Sky News the military is modernising to mirror society and insisted the UK is not out of date by preventing women from fighting on the frontline

Whoop de do.

If we are going to mirror society, how long until we can expect the disabled and ex-offenders with 'unspent' convictions to start applying to join?

Newsflash for MOD Main Office, there is no such thing as equality. It is a manufactured concept in vogue since the 18th century revolutions.

If it made economic sense to a company to have 50% of its board composed of women, don't you think the profit-hungry venture capitalists from NY to London would have done it as a matter of course already??!!:ugh:

Similarly, if all women were capable of achieving Air Rank after 30+ years of hard work, and wanted to make the sacrifices necessary, then 50% of Air Ranks..........would be women??

The fact is, that most women drop out of the mil to have the children they so obviously want (my wife and 3 kids at home being a case in point). If she wanted to be a career animal - she would have been one.

So lets cut the social engineering newspeak and concentrate on what's important: Another senior officer, in an RAF with about 7 front line sqns (hyperbole, I know), has been promoted by fair means or foul, who knows. It matters not what gender they are.

[Laarbruch72]

If we are going to mirror society, how long until we can expect the disabled and ex-offenders with 'unspent' convictions to start applying to join?


That's not really a fair comparison, virtually no large civilian company will want to employ someone with convictions, and certainly not unspent ones. Spent, then yes they'll have to "consider" them by law, but that's no guarantee the person will be viewed very favourably especially when they're up against someone equally qualified with a lack of same "spent convictions".

[pr00ne]

Training Risky,

"It matters not what gender they are."

Well, judging from your hysterical rant, it appears to matter to you!

You are aware that it is possible to be a success in business or whatever chosen career path, AND a mother?

[Training Risky]

What matters is selection based on merit, not quota filling. All the PR-spin 'first at whatever' stories are meaningless drivel in a world where sexism/racism is illegal and young girls can become Queen and PM.

And yes it is possible to be a success in business or whatever chosen career path, AND a mother, but the few examples you can hold up as role models are notable as exceptions (Horlick/Roddick/Thatcher).

To clarify, if the business/political/military worlds were meant to be statistically representative of society - then all the naturally talented and able women (who want to sacrifice their family time) would be in 50% of top positions by now. Human nature and biology say that is not meant to be so - so they are not.

[Mr C Hinecap]

You are aware that it is possible to be a success in business or whatever chosen career path, AND a mother?

Evidently not in the Training Risky household!

[Blue Bottle]

and another, good on the girls..


https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/ministry-of-defence

[Willard Whyte]

With apologies to Harry Callahan...

MRS. GREY: His Honor intends to broaden the areas of participation for women in the police force.

CALLAHAN: Well that sounds very stylish.

[Tankertrashnav]

During her career she has deployed to Iraq on both the First Gulf War in 1991, and again on Operation Telic in 2003 when she was Chief Engineer for the Joint Helicopter Force.


So no snide remarks about no campaign medals for this lady!

Just dragged out the photo of my graduation parade at Feltwell in 1964. The portly old AVM who took our parade looks old enough in the pic to be this lady's father.

At least some things are looking up in the RAF :ok:

[ricardian]

How WRAF Officers were trained in 1965 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8owgLYZf104)

[Tankertrashnav]

Thanks for posting Ricardian - lots of interesting memories of the OCTU at Feltwell. The chap on the left watching the girl on the trampoline at 4 mins 30 seconds is a 17 year old Officer Cadet Tankertrashnav! I'd forgotten all about that film and it's taken almost 50 years to get to see it.

Don't the WRAF officers look smart? I know combats are more practical, but do they really have to be worn on a non-operational station in the UK? :(

[MPN11]

Nice one, ricardian, although I didn't recognise any of the ladies! Nice shot of an MPN11 there at 10:00 in :)

Greetings, tankertrashnav, from a fellow Feltwell (172 Yellow Sqn [all male sqn], Jan-Apr 65).

[ricardian]

Tankertrashnav - glad you eventually got to see your five seconds of fame! Is it my imagination or do those blues look a lot darker than they really were? Very smart ladies though

[thing]

What's the tailwheel a/c taxiing in right at the end?

[4mastacker]

Looked like a Bristol Freighter.

[thing]

That's what I thought, wonder what it was doing at an RAF base.

[Chugalug2]

There were certainly Bristol Freighters of 41 Sqn RNZAF based at RAF Changi, where and when parts of this film were shot, but the apron shown would appear to be in a temperate climate (possibly the UK?). There were some civilian Freighters on the British register, perhaps this was one on a military charter. Could the apron be Brize Norton's?

[Molesworth Hold]

I think it's Lyneham. The Bristol Freighter probably came from Boscombe.

[Tankertrashnav]

MPN 11 - I was also yellow squadron - the all male lot! 168 course, so you arrived just after we passed out.

Dont remember many faces, but that blonde in the classroom - did I come back from the pub one night with her in the back seat of a Triumph Herald? ;)

Or is that wishful thinking? :(

[MPN11]

Dont remember many faces, but that blonde in the classroom - did I come back from the pub one night with her in the back seat of a Triumph Herald?
Or is that wishful thinking?
I was the only single OCdt on 172 Cse with a car - accordingly I never used the back seat, except when parked :cool:

I remember my very first evening in the Junior Cadets' bar. An Irish lass (Green Sqn?) walked in, ordered a pint, swallowed about half of it in one go and said "F*** me, I needed that." I wondered what sort of air force I had joined!! `Not sure whether "Paddy" graduated, though.