WWI - Losers ask Winners not to Celebrate

[ORAC]

Germany intervenes in WW1 commemoration debate (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/world-war-one/10249760/Germany-intervenes-in-WW1-commemoration-debate.html)

Germany has intervened in the debate over how to mark the centenary of the First World War, with a call for Britain not to make its commemorations too celebratory.

....In Britain, an advisory board of historians, writers, religious leaders and retired military figures has been formed to advise the Government on commemorations. The panel includes Professor Sir Hew Strachan, from Oxford University, who has been one of those calling for a greater emphasis on celebrations. Officials from the German embassy also met with him, to discuss the issues.

He said: “I understand Germany’s position. There is no virtue in offending Germany. But if we are going to honest to the history of this war from a British perspective, then it can’t all be about waste and futility. A lot of people fought and died thinking it was worthwhile. We need to respect what those motivations were. It’s not about being triumphalist, or even necessarily celebratory. It is about acknowledging that when the war ended there was a victory. The allies thought it was pretty important and would have been pretty disastrous if they had lost it.”..........

[SASless]

Rather than bragging about a Win.....why not commemorate the Losses on both sides and agree to put an end to War if at all humanly possible?

There are no "winners" in War....just one side that loses more.

[Agaricus bisporus]

Dear me, are they suddenly getting sensitive? How very un-German.

SASless, i'm not sure you're correct. In a clear cut victory against unwarranted aggression such as WWs I and II there certainly are winners and losers.

In - er - less definable results like VietNam you are probably right.

[500N]

Interesting.

I thought they weren't celebrations but commemorations and
remembrance of the dead ?

[rab-k]

Good luck everybody - Blackadder - BBC - YouTube

'Nuff said...

[airborne_artist]

Good luck everybody - Blackadder - BBC - YouTube (http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vH3-Gt7mgyM)



'Nuff said...

Without doubt one of the best pieces of work ever commissioned by the BBC. It gets very dusty in the room when I watch it.

[NutLoose]

With you 500N, I always thought they were an act of remembrance and reflection brought about by the hope that in remembering them we will learn from it and never again go down the path of total war, and in doing so you remember both sides.


I will always remember that closing scene of the last Blackadder as an inspirational way to end one of this Countries finest comedies whilst bring home the futility of it all and honouring those that that died. Simply perfection.



..

[500N]

Nutloose

Thanks

"and in doing so you remember both sides. "

Especially over the last few years, at least in Aus where at certain services
(not all) they have had the Ambassador from the enemy countries
- Japan being one, Turkey being the other and very prominent.

[SASless]

AB,

Politicians may think Victory....and some may think they are right....but those that pay the price for Politicians scheming may not be so enthusiastic.


http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2649/4509056190_57aa53b4be_z.jpg

[Cumulogranite]

It should be a commemoration of the lives lost on both sides to give us all the freedom we enjoy today. That said, history is generally written by the victors. But we should celebrate and commemorate in equal measure and ignore the thoughts of a minority who don't want to offend Germany!

[dctyke]

So they are not going to find a current sqn with a good record of WW1 'kills' and paint up the tail with a depiction of a enemy plane going down in flames? Damn....... or should I say Dam?

[ZH875]

War does not decide who is right, merely who is left.

Lest we forget

[Wander00]

Lets us remember the dead of all nations - just look at French war memorials - but also remember who won, and had to do it again a generation later, and hope there will be no more.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Germany has intervened in the debate over how to mark the centenary of the First World War, with a call for Britain not to make its commemorations too celebratory.

Oooooor what?! :suspect:

[Bergerie1]

My grandfather and his two brothers were killed in Ypres in 1915. My father was a POW in Singapore.

While we must acknowledge that we fought to stop aggression, did so successfully, and I honour our war dead, we must never forget the needless waste - of life and cultural heritage.

We should not celebrate but, instead, vow never ever to do it again. I can't tell you how strongly I feel about this.

[fantom]

I wish older school-children were taken to Ypres and attend the evening ceremony at the Gate as part of their education in Matters of Importance.

Then, they would never forget.

[NutLoose]

And then on to Auschwitz.

[rab-k]

Nothing to "celebrate" as such other than an end to the hostilities in 1918. Everything else a commemoration surely.

[ArthurR]

The only winners in war are those that live through the fighting. Notice how not many politicians take part, yet seem to start them all. Lets honour the dead on all sides.

[SASless]

AB,

If you think that....about clear cut winners.....how do you explain what happened in the UK post WWII.....Rationing, Political unrest, unemployment, nationalization of industry, housing shortages, etc......and then compare that to Germany's successful rebuilding and return to be a major economic power?

Twas not a good or easy time for you Brits after the War.

[The Helpful Stacker]

Strange that one of my fellow Americans is seemingly aghast at the idea of 'celebrating' victory. Every year, on the forth day of July, I and many of my kin hoot, holler and generally howl ourselves hoarse in remembrance of a great victory, a victory that came at a huge price to both sides with regards to lives lost.

Is the UK commemorating a past victory against a militaristic state who had nefarious intent in their (the UK's) own back yard somehow different?

[Agaricus bisporus]

Damn right we're not allowed to. It might be misconstrued as patriotic which is one of the worst - nastiest - insults you can make to a Brit today. Digustingly jingoistic...

[tmmorris]

Slightly OT but does anyone know how I might go about finding out about the circumstance of someone's death in WW1 in the RFC? A relative (my grandfather's cousin) was killed, and I've visited his grave but know nothing more - e.g. what he flew, how he died, &c.

[TomJoad]

I wish older school-children were taken to Ypres and attend the evening ceremony at the Gate as part of their education in Matters of Importance.

Then, they would never forget.

Err, they do fantom. Had the pleasure of the company of 30 of our senior students on a battlefield tour this year. You would be surprised just how informed they actually are.

[SASless]

We celebrate winning our Freedom from an oppressive government....but we also commemorate those who paid for that freedom in the course of the War.

There is a huge difference between our Fourth of July celebration and our Veterans Day on which we remember those who have served in our military over the years.

Perhaps you miss the subtlety of what some of us are saying here. More than a few of us are Combat Veterans and know too well what War is all about and thus see War in a much different light than those who have no experience of War.

A friend of mine recently said...."I thought Vietnam was the worst experience of my life....until I sent my Son off to Iraq!".

[TomJoad]

AB,

If you think that....about clear cut winners.....how do you explain what happened in the UK post WWII.....Rationing, Political unrest, unemployment, nationalization of industry, housing shortages, etc......and then compare that to Germany's successful rebuilding and return to be a major economic power?

Twas not a good or easy time for you Brits after the War.

That's because old Blighty was bankrupt bud. Had a lot of debts to pay back after the war. :(

[octavian]

Just read, and viewed this thread, including post 5.

Bugger. That confounded bit of grit just hit my eye again. Well done Blackadder.

And yes, SASless ArthurR and others are correct. Been there, done that. War is a damned silly way to settle a dispute.

With the original, and subsequent, posts in mind and the concept of what is being proposed; no celebrations thank you. Commemoration. For all.

Sadly, perhaps, a commitment to never ever allow this to happen again is beyond the capability or understanding of politicians who commit their people to the futility of war.

[Wensleydale]

Headline in the Daily Wail:

"Archduke Ferdinand found alive. World War One a Mistake!"

[pzu]

fantom

I wish older school-children were taken to Ypres and attend the evening ceremony at the Gate as part of their education in Matters of Importance.

Then, they would never forget.

Nutloose

And then on to Auschwitz.

My G/daughter aged 13 is not long back from YPRES as part of a school trip, and visited a CWGC site near Etaples with her parents last week

Also know a not insignificant number of kids from Teesside and points North have visited Auschwitz this year

So perhaps there is some Hope!!!

PZU - Out of Africa (Retired)

[NutLoose]

Strange that one of my fellow Americans is seemingly aghast at the idea of 'celebrating' victory. Every year, on the forth day of July, I and many of my kin hoot, holler and generally howl ourselves hoarse in remembrance of a great victory, a victory that came at a huge price to both sides with regards to lives lost.


Yup, some people celebrate the oddest of things, we celebrate burning a guy to death every year for trying to blow up Parliament, these days it's a pity we do not have a day of mourning for him...


..

[Tankertrashnav]

So they are not going to find a current sqn with a good record of WW1 'kills' and paint up the tail with a depiction of a enemy plane going down in flames? Damn....... or should I say Dam?

If that's a reference to 617, I think you'll find their tally of WW1 kills was nil. ;)

[brickhistory]

I believe that via either the UN or the EU, France will also be asking you to not honor things like Trafalger - perhaps think of renaming the Square and taking down the statute?

And deleting Henry V from your literature?

As well as the backwards 'V' gesture.

Mustn't upset the neighbors you see...

[sisemen]

I will always remember that closing scene of the last Blackadder as an inspirational way to end one of this Countries finest comedies whilst bring home the futility of it all and honouring those that that died. Simply perfection.


The crowning glory of that series was that in the preceding weeks we all laughed along and then that final episode crept in, unsuspectingly, on 2 November 1989 just as Remembrance Week started. The timing was superb.

[Basil]

Just for non first-language English speakers; some meanings:

celebrate
1 to perform (a ritual, ceremony, etc.) publicly and formally: solemnize
2 to commemorate (an anniversary, holiday, etc.) with ceremony or festivity
3 to honour or praise publicly

So not necessarily jubilant rejoicing.

IMHO WW1 was one of the worst disasters to hit Western Europe and one from which we are all still suffering.

[Wander00]

IMHO that last 30 seconds of Blackadder is the best 30 seconds ever produced.

Several countries lost a large part of a generation of young men - France almost an entire generation - so not surprising that Europe still suffers the effects of WW1

[Thud105]

Green Fields Of France
Eric Bogle (http://celtic-lyrics.com/artists/111.html)
Well, how do you do, Private William McBride,
Do you mind if I sit down here by your graveside?
And rest for awhile in the warm summer sun,
I've been walking all day, and I'm nearly done.
And I see by your gravestone you were only 19
When you joined the glorious fallen in 1916,
Well, I hope you died quick and I hope you died clean
Or, Willie McBride, was it slow and obscene?

Did they Beat the drum slowly, did the play the pipes lowly?
Did the rifles fir o'er you as they lowered you down?
Did the bugles sound The Last Post in chorus?
Did the pipes play the Flowers of the Forest?

And did you leave a wife or a sweetheart behind
In some loyal heart is your memory enshrined?
And, though you died back in 1916,
To that loyal heart are you forever 19?
Or are you a stranger without even a name,
Forever enshrined behind some glass pane,
In an old photograph, torn and tattered and stained,
And fading to yellow in a brown leather frame?

The sun's shining down on these green fields of France;
The warm wind blows gently, and the red poppies dance.
The trenches have vanished long under the plow;
No gas and no barbed wire, no guns firing now.
But here in this graveyard that's still No Man's Land
The countless white crosses in mute witness stand
To man's blind indifference to his fellow man.
And a whole generation who were butchered and damned.

And I can't help but wonder, no Willie McBride,
Do all those who lie here know why they died?
Did you really believe them when they told you "The Cause?"
Did you really believe that this war would end wars?
Well the suffering, the sorrow, the glory, the shame
The killing, the dying, it was all done in vain,
For Willie McBride, it all happened again,
And again, and again, and again, and again.

The last verse pretty well sums it all up.

[Wensleydale]

We'll be asked to only commemorate the Ashes next so we don't upset the poor Aussies who are losing everything at the moment.

(Is it true that they are now so used to finishing second that they are changing their national sporting colours to "The Green and Silver"? Just Commemorating)! :}

[Pontius Navigator]

Why are we commemorating the beginning if WW1? We didn't commemorate the beginning of WW2.

We commemorate the end of the wars and the ends of WW2 battles such as BoB although we do both celebrate and commemorate the D-Day Landings.

Would I be a cynic if I thought it is hype by media and entertainment industries backed by politicians hoping for an Olympic feel-good factor to take them in to the next election?

[Biggus]

PN,

To be accurate, 15th September 1940 was not "the end" of the BoB!!

It was rather the turning point/high water mark/most intense day of fighting.....

[Pontius Navigator]

Biggus, thank you. Of course the weather then was better for a cocktail party and a true celebration of a turning point. While D-Day was a start it was, like the BoB, a turning point. The start of a war is the complete antithesis of what should be celebrated and even commemorated. The end, OTOH cannot have a Centennial commemoration until the mid-term of the next Parliament.

[Wwyvern]

tmmorris

Check your PMs

[Two's in]

Why wouldn't we celebrate the slaughter of an entire generation and successfully creating the conditions for the rise of fascism in Germany? There was no "victory", just a pause in the great death machine that snuffed out the lives of millions on the whim of brainless politicians and spineless Generals. As much as I despise the EU and everything it stands for, at least arguing in Brussels over whether or not I can buy a bent banana is more morally uplifting and a lot safer than the participating in the genocide of nations.

We celebrate winning our Freedom from an oppressive government.... Nearly a quarter of a millenia later, just about every single American remembers the principle of why the War of Independence was fought and won. I doubt very much if many Europeans remember how WW1 even started, never mind why it was fought.

[ShotOne]

Excellently put, two's in. We started the war as the most wealthy country on the planet with a huge empire and ended broke, having lost nearly a
Million of our finest. Anyone who calls that "winning" needs their head looking at, or at least a major history lesson.

[NutLoose]

Yep, similar to WW2, we turned down having Volkswagen as part of our war reparations, look where the UK car industry is today and that of Volkswagen.

No one wins in a war, one side just loses less than the other.


..

[SASless]

Two,

I very strongly differ.....very damn few actually remember much less understand. If they did we would not have the situation extant where the Federal Government has centralized as much power as it has at the great expense of the States and most importantly the People.

Very damn few Americans understand the People granted certain very limited powers to the Federal Government, that the Constitution and Bill of Rights most important purpose was to protect the People, the Individual, from Government.

Mark Levin on Hannity the other night laid it out in plain simple concepts what has happened to the original principles over the years and it has not been good.

In his latest book he makes some very good points.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJdwc3q5s0o




One example.....why should the Supreme Court operate on a simple majority vote? Why should one unelected lawyer be able to shift the way we live our lives.....why not a super majority so that it takes a greater majority of Justices to agree on these earth shaking decisions? Would that not make it much harder for the Court to over rule long standing Law and more likely conform to the consensus of the American People? Look back at all of the "controversial" decisions.....and almost every single one of them was a 5/4 Vote. Would they have been "Controversial" if it had taken a super majority for such decisions?

[smujsmith]

If you want to remember a "victory" over the Germans, I suggest the 1966 World Cup final has its attractions. As for the Great War and WW2, our remembrance should be reserved for the people who sacrificed themselves to allow us to exercise what we are doing. The German mischief is not the first time they've done it. I think they feel a bit "left out" maybe. Perhaps the result of coming second :rolleyes:

Smudge

[500N]

"Perhaps the result of coming second :rolleyes:"

Twice :O

I would love to know where the original report came from !!!

[SASless]

Something the Germans and Brits have in common....against the Yanks!;)

[smujsmith]

Sasless

Only after we've had a bit of a head start old chap. Both times :rolleyes:

Smudge

[langleybaston]

cel·e·brate [sel-uh-breyt] Show IPA verb, cel·e·brat·ed, cel·e·brat·ing.
verb (used with object)
1.
to observe (a day) or commemorate (an event) with ceremonies or festivities: to celebrate Christmas; to celebrate the success of a new play.
2.
to make known publicly; proclaim: The newspaper celebrated the end of the war in red headlines.
3.
to praise widely or to present to widespread and favorable public notice, as through newspapers or novels: a novel celebrating the joys of marriage; the countryside celebrated in the novels of Hardy.
4.
to perform with appropriate rites and ceremonies; solemnize: to celebrate a marriage.
verb (used without object)
5.
to observe a day or commemorate an event with ceremonies or festivities.
6.
to perform a religious ceremony, especially Mass or the Lord's Supper.
7.
to have or participate in a party, drinking spree, or uninhibited good time: You look like you were up celebrating all night.

I CELEBRATE MY COUNTRY'S VICTORY OVER TOTALITARIANISM IN TWO WORLD WARS, AND THE SACRIFICE OF LIFE AND/OR YOUTH OF MY GRANDFATHER, MY FATHER, AND MY WIFE'S GRANDFATHER.

RIP

[smujsmith]

Langleybaston,

All points well made and fully supported.

Smudge

With respect, not often a Metman gets it right!

[54Phan]

Very well said, Langley, especially the capitals. Thanks.

[sisemen]

Yep, similar to WW2, we turned down having Volkswagen as part of our war reparations, look where the UK car industry is today and that of Volkswagen.

If the UK had taken on VW then VW would have been dead as a brand by now :E

[henra]

The German mischief is not the first time they've done it. I think they feel a bit "left out" maybe. Perhaps the result of coming second :rolleyes:


Being from Germany I have the very strong suspicion that this embarrassing request of some of our Politicians has something to do with the Federal elections we will have in September. Not much happens these days in politics without the elections in mind...
Apart from that I don't think the General Population will care too much about this. Every Nation has the right to celebrate what it thinks is worth celebrating.

That said I'm also (like Pontius Navigator) a bit wondering why one would celebrate the Beginning of a terrible and unnecessary war that did cost millions of Lives (for what purpose?) rather than the End of the war?.

[Pontius Navigator]

henra, we are of like mind. Elections. As I said, UK benefitted from the general uplift of a Royal Wedding, the Olympics, the 60th Anniversary, the Royal Birth.

"Now Sir Humphrey, what can we do next year before the election?"

[Tiger_mate]

That said I'm also (like Pontius Navigator) a bit wondering why one would celebrate the Beginning of a terrible and unnecessary war that did cost millions of Lives (for what purpose?) rather than the End of the war?.

Fair point:

But we are British and will therefore celebrate the beginning and the end! Two parties... simples :O

[henra]

But we are British and will therefore celebrate the beginning and the end! Two parties... simples :O

Fair enough... :)

[Tiger_mate]

However 2018 is also the Centenary Anniversary of the RAF and therefore that should be the positive focus of an anniversary year. One suspects that it will be very different from the 50th Anniversary celebrations which were done on a grand scale.

I am a little biased for some years ago after arriving at a Summer Ball at a RAFG station and having incurred the financial outlay that such occasions merit, the stn cdr walked in at 8pm and despite the event having started, he cancelled the Ball. Why: because the German Defence Minister had asked Downing Street to cancel all such celebrations due to a fatal crash in Dortmund involving a USAF A10. As usual, there was no recompense for the guys that had flown partners out from the UK for the occasion. The air crash, whilst very sad, was no just cause for the political consequences that weekend.

A visit to the WWI Battlefields is a humbling experience. However there is no place in our future for forgetting the lessons of the past. I would agree that perhaps 'Celebrate' is an inappropriate word that should be replaced with 'commemorate '.

[Chugalug2]

henra, your attitude does you credit, and by extension the general population of your country who you say do not care much about this. If there is one reason why the UK gets itself into a real pickle time and time again it is because it anguishes too much about the opinions of others rather than of its own people. Here of course I talk about the "UK" just as the thread title implies "Germany". Governments and politicians are not the population of their countries and should never be confused with them.

Having said that, I agree that "celebrate" is totally wrong, and that "commemorate" is far more appropriate. No war should be celebrated, they only bring misery and destroy lives, even of those that survive them.
I also agree that commemorating the start of a war is a strange idea. Rather one should commemorate those who died in it and as a result of it. The time to do that is at the anniversary of its end.

The politicians fingerprints are all over this, both pro and con. I suggest a boycott!

SAS, thanks for the video. Fascinating. So an eighteenth Century written Constitution has led to a political class that is even more permanently ensconced than that in the House of Lords. Who would have thought? Might be some merit then in having an unwritten one that is reflected in the continuous reform of institutions and laws to reflect present realities and needs. No? Oh well...

[SASless]

The Constitution did not lead to this situation....ignoring the Constitution did.

That is the problem....our Freedom and the structure by which it is protecting has been nibbled away at over a hundred years....and as we all know....at some point....when you step back and take a long look....the erosion becomes plain to the eye.

The North Carolina State Constitution, Article I, Section 35, reminds us that the People should look back at the Founding Principles less we forget them.

Look at the Amendments that have been made....and some repealed....fixing something that isn't broken has never been wise.

[OutlawPete]

Yep, similar to WW2, we turned down having Volkswagen as part of our war reparations, look where the UK car industry is today and that of Volkswagen.

If the UK had taken on VW then VW would have been dead as a brand by now :E

Yup, concur with that. The strikes of the 70's and early 80's coupled with weak corporate management sealed the fate of the car industry in the uk. We now have a situation where all the best bits that are left are actually owned by German car manufacturers!

Wasnt VW saved at the end of WWII by a British Army officer who served in the REME though?

[Chugalug2]

Wikki, as ever obliges:-
The re-opening of the factory is largely accredited to British Army officer Major Ivan Hirst (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Hirst).[27] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VW_Beetle#cite_note-27) Hirst was ordered to take control of the heavily bombed factory, which the Americans had captured. His first task was to remove an unexploded bomb that had fallen through the roof and lodged itself between some pieces of irreplaceable production equipment; if the bomb had exploded, the Beetle's fate would have been sealed. Hirst persuaded the British military to order 20,000 of the cars,[13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VW_Beetle#cite_note-autogenerated1-13) and by March 1946 the factory was producing 1,000 cars a month, which Hirst said "was the limit set by the availability of materials". During this period, the car reverted to its original name of Volkswagen and the town was renamed Wolfsburg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfsburg). The first 1,785 Type 1s were made in 1945.
That was only after the line had been seized by the UK as booty, where it was reviewed and then rejected by the UK car industry:-
Thankfully for Volkswagen, no British car manufacturer was interested in the factory; "the vehicle does not meet the fundamental technical requirement of a motor-car ... it is quite unattractive to the average buyer ... To build the car commercially would be a completely uneconomic enterprise."[ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VW_Beetle#cite_note-autogenerated3-25)
Ah, tea. Excellent!