Loft attack

[typerated]

I was wondering if Loft attacks and its various offshoots are still practiced these days?

In fact are any dumb bomb delivery profiles still practiced these days - I have never seen a photo of a Typhoon with a dumb bomb and not one on a Tornado for a long time.

[Wensleydale]

I've not heard of any insurgents hiding in attics these days, but in case they do.....:8

[Just This Once...]

Tornado can still do LOFT (well actually it is actually a TOSS attack, but they didn't write that on the buttons).

I've seen a KFF attached to a Typhoon a while back and it was not there when he came back. I've no idea what delivery modes they have cleared now.

[Just This Once...]

Typhoon with a brace of blue bombs:

http://www.cranfieldaerospace.com/resources/uploads/gallery/3/Tyhpoon%20KFF.jpg

[Just This Once...]

Back in the day when 12 dumb bombs ruled and the enemy was just a quick dash next door:

http://www.qinetiq.com/what/capabilities/weapons/publishingimages/tornado-bomb-drop-large.jpg

[Just This Once...]

Or for really dumb weapons where you may wish to exit at really high speed:

http://nuclear-weapons.info/images/017-Tornado-laydown.png

:eek:

[AutoBit]

Used to be fairly SOP to Loft PWIV on the GR9. 4 wpns per jet in a 4 ship gave you 16 DPI's (8 if you doubled up).

[Lightning Mate]

Nothing dumb about the WE177.

Great for a suntan.

[Just This Once...]

But you had to point your mirrors away before release; never easy for an ex-Lightning mate.

:ok:

[Capt Scribble]

Didn't you keep the eye patch from the Jag go-pack?

[zero1]

Hi the Tornado above was either prototype P-03 or P-15, the orange pods on the outbound pylons are FTI high speed camera pods to record the bomb release footage. And as you can also see the bombs are carried on twin store carriers fitted to the inboard and shoulder pylons.

The photo may have been taken either taking off from Warton or Boscomb in the mid 80's...

LOFT attach was used for both iron bombs and special weapon release profiles either low or medium release.

[Postman Plod]

I'm pretty sure that was the fit on the 1:72 Airfix Tornado GR1 - a fit I'd never actually seen in reality or in any photos until now! Only the weapons fit colour scheme was different, and I'm fairly sure the camera pods were fuel tanks of the same shape on the model. :8

I'll get my coat.

[Bob Viking]

Toss/Loft (call it what you will) is still very relevant. Just not with dumb munitions any more. It is the low level delivery method of choice at TW nowadays simulating PW4 attacks.
How times have changed.
BV

[AR1]

I would have thought that it was the ONLY LL delivery method for an LGB!

[Bob Viking]

Alright smart arse. Read my post properly and you'll realise that's not what I implied.
BV

[5 Forward 6 Back]

AR1, you could do low altitude level releases with PW3... some bombs are smart enough to sort it out! :ok:

[xenolith]

The Puma was quite adept at the Loft Attack, ISTR a puma loadpole was firmly embedded in someones loft in Guildford circa '78/'79.

[Moi/]

The first rule of fight club, is that you don't talk about fight club..

[AR1]

Bob to get called a smart arse in this company is a badge I'll wear with pride.:ok:

[Easy Street]

Paveway IV can be released from level, loft or toss profiles at low level. All currently practised by the Tornado force.

I recall days when a 4-ship might be tasked to deliver 32 bombs against one aiming point. Now it might be 20 bombs against 20 aiming points! :ok:

[SASless]

Only difference between now and then is now it is 20 aiming points on purpose!:E

[Bob Viking]

AR1.
Thumbs up/like.
Can't be bothered to work out how to get smileys on my iPhone!
BV

[The Oberon]

OK, I'll bite, I'm sure there are others wanting to know. What is a typical forward throw from release to impact given a high speed toss approach with a 1000 lb. dumb bomb.

[BBadanov]

20,000 ft, tad over 3nm

[typerated]

I've seen a miss of over 4500ft - never anything approaching a DH though

[just another jocky]

I've seen a miss of over 4500ft - never anything approaching a DH though

Don't ask IX Sqn about Loft at Wainfleet. :E

Loft at Deci was always fun.....Reversionary Loft even more so! :eek:

Loads of Loft DH's over the years. :ok:

[typerated]

Good for you JAJ.

I assumed it was harder then a hole in one at golf.

Best fun was to watch was a flight of A-10s trying it at Wainfleet - the 20,000ft that BBadanov quotes was more like 1000ft and the miss distance something similar!

[just another jocky]

Good for you JAJ.



All the Nav's doing m8. I just had to pull up wings level and hold my thumb on a button.....even a pilot can do that. :}

[Just This Once...]

Admittedly Rev LOFT at Deci could be 'interesting', especially when QWI navs failed to recognise the difference between a range ring and their carefully calculated cursor, but with normal modes good scores were easy.

Never did like night TF-LOFT-TF though.

[clicker]

OK being an ignorant lurker, can someone explain what a Reversionary Loft is please.

First thing that came into my mind was Deci chucking the bomb back at you, clearly not right!

[Bob Viking]

Jag toss/loft was always reasonably accurate. It was just like most other modes, just follow the kit and fly accurately. Unless my rose tinted specs are clouding my vision again!
BV

[Wrathmonk]

especially when QWI navs failed to recognise the difference between a range ring and their carefully calculated cursor

Or had the wrong weapon package selected.....:E

[Wensleydale]

OK being an ignorant lurker, can someone explain what a Reversionary Loft is
please.

A loft conversion?

[LateArmLive]

A loft conversion?

No, a loft conversion is what you had to do when you tried to toss too soon.

[Easy Street]

Tornado reversionary loft was a "manual" aiming technique, i.e. no computing involved, and was really only intended to ensure that a WE177 landed on the correct side of the FLOT. It went something along the lines of:

Pilot:
Fly precisely at pre-nominated speed and height.

Nav:
Set up a marker ring ("cursor" in the terminology) on the radar display at a pre-calculated distance ahead of the aircraft
Identify the target using the radar
Tell pilot to steer left or right until tracking directly towards target
Give a countdown such that the pilot begins pulling up as the target crosses the cursor (3-2-1-Pull)

Pilot:
Pull up at precisely 3g
As pre-nominated climb angle is reached, press the weapon release button whilst continuing 3g pull
Recover

Both:
Wince as score in excess of 1000 feet duly reported.

The opposite of Rev Loft was Auto Loft, where the target position was input into the aircraft computer and automatic weapon aiming calculations determined the point at which the weapon was released. The target position could be updated using the radar during the attack. A countdown to pull-up and azimuth steering commands were shown in the HUD, which the pilot could follow manually or let the autopilot do the business (e.g. during terrain following radar ops). Just before pull-up the autopilot would be disconnected, the pilot would follow the HUD flight director pull-up command manually, and the weapon release button would be held down. The computer would continually recalculate the bomb throw as the flightpath angle increased and the airspeed decreased, and when this met the range to target the weapons would be released automatically. At a guess, about 10% ended in DHs and good crews were able to score consistently within 100ft. The prime sources of error were probably the accuracy of the target mark on the radar, the accuracy of the aircraft's height in the bomb aiming solution, and crosswinds (because there was no lateral compensation for crosswind in the aiming solution; this meant that aircraft tracked directly towards the target at release, so as the bombs slowed down they drifted slightly downwind).

[clicker]

Thanks Easy Street.

LateArmLive,
"No, a loft conversion is what you had to do when you tried to toss too soon."

You're thinking of a flat conversion there.

[LateArmLive]

Easy Street - that's a fairly good description of a toss attack. ;)

To settle this - a loft attack is when a weapon is released in a climb at 1g. A toss attack is when the weapon is released at greater than 1g.

Apologies to the Tornado Force who've been doing it wrong for years :ok:

[typerated]

So are lofts still practiced on ranges or do you not need to bother to practice a PW loft on a range?

[BBadanov]

"To settle this - a loft attack is when a weapon is released in a climb at 1g. A toss attack is when the weapon is released at greater than 1g."

Yes,
LOFT with a constant stabilised climb angle, typically 30 degrees (10 degrees mini-loft), or
TOSS with a constant g pull (>1g), typically 4g.

[L J R]

The 'Fixed Range Timer Toss'.......generally went somewhere ahead of you......It was the 'ultimate' in rev modes.....why you would bother to actually do one eludes me, but was 'interesting' at debrief time.:mad:

[Easy Street]

I don't deny that the Tornado Force got loft / toss the wrong way round for the entirety of its service life with dumb bombs! Lord knows how it ended up being that way.

We are getting it right now with PW4, which is delivered from a steady climbing profile known as 'loft'. Finally! :ok:

[L J R]

^^^^^^ Just like we did in the F-111F in the early '90s - Steady (Shallow) climb release...I think we called it a 'bump' in the -F model rather than a 'Climb-Auto' (F-111C term), or maybe a mini-loft...??