Ryanair: Secrets from the Cockpit

[freshgasflow]

This will be aired on Channel 4 dispatches program on 12th August at 20:00 London time where serving Ryanair pilots reveal their worries over Ryanair's fuel policy and pilot working conditions.

Dispatches - Channel 4 (http://www.channel4.com/programmes/dispatches)

[no sponsor]

I fly with quite a few ex-RYR and the stories they tell me of intimidation to fly no-matter-what are truly shocking.

[pudoc]

I think you'll find everyone likes a bash at Ryanair. I have no idea what the conditions are like, but I know a lot of pilots there. None of them say it's as bad as what you are lead to believe on pprune and TV.

[StainesFS]

I suppose that the truth lies somewhere between the extremes depicted in posts #2 and #3. It hope that it will be an interesting watch.

[Herod]

I'm booked with them tomorrow morning; when I get back I'll watch the "terrifying" stories. Having flown with them many times, I find that they provide a good, reliable service, provided you ignore the constant sales pitch. Several of my ex-colleagues fly with them and they tell me the operations side is very professional.

[shortfinals]

Here's an independent view of life in the boardroom and crewroom at Ryanair: In the crewroom at Ryanair | Learmount (http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/learmount/2013/08/a-glimpse-of-ryanair-today/)

[Captaintcas]

I positioned recently with a Ryanair flight.
A thunderstorm was rolling in over the airport, really violent one, lightning all over the place.

But Ryanair decided to continue the fueling, AND board passengers.
I stayed outside until the fueling was terminated, in the pouring rain.


There was in my company a Captain, ex. FR who claimed to have introduced the fuel policy in FR.

We have one fuel policy: Bloody put enough to land at destination and feel comfortable. A diversion always is more expensive than a couple of hundred kilos more fuel.

Fuel is completely Crew discretion.

The bullying of FR towards is employees, passengers , airports and authorities is simply an insult to the profession.
Bullying ALWAYS results in compromised safety. And this is something FR is NOT able to deny.

[fingal flyer]

Herod,
You sit where you want but as a professional pilot for more than 20yrs I hope if its on a Ryanair a/c I never have to sit in front of you.Just my opinion, I may even be wrong but I will stick to my guns on this one.

[LouthGirl]

Ryanair pilots raise safety concerns

©AFP
A survey of Ryanair pilots has found concerns about the low-cost carrier’s safety culture, and support for an inquiry by regulators.

Ryanair, Europe’s largest budget airline by revenue, declined to comment on the survey on Sunday, but said it had an “unblemished 29-year safety record”.

The survey was commissioned by the Ryanair Pilot Group, which is seeking to have the airline’s pilots represented by trade unions in negotiations on pay and working conditions.

It contacted more than 1,000 captains and first officers at Ryanair – more than one-third of the total number of pilots at the company.

The survey was prompted by a warning in April by Ray Conway, Ryanair’s chief pilot and a senior manager, that any pilot signing a petition – organised by the Ryanair Pilot Group and calling on regulators to evaluate whether the company’s employment model had an impact on the safety of flight operations – would be liable for dismissal.

Of those participating in the survey, 89 per cent said that, following this memorandum from Mr Conway, they did not consider that Ryanair had an open and transparent safety culture.

Mr Conway said in his memo that any pilot who had legitimate safety concerns should raise them through Ryanair’s confidential safety reporting channel or with the Irish Aviation Authority.

The survey found that 67 per cent did not feel comfortable raising safety issues through Ryanair’s internal reporting system.

It also found 94 per cent believed regulators should conduct an inquiry into the impact of Ryanair’s employment practices on safety.

Evert van Zwol, chairman of the Ryanair Pilot Group’s interim council, said it had a “strong suspicion” that the airline’s employment practices may be affecting flight safety, but had no proof, which explained why an inquiry was warranted by regulators.

He added a majority of Ryanair’s pilots were not employed directly but instead hired through agencies, and expressed concerns about their terms and conditions, saying many have so-called zero-hours contracts where there are no guaranteed working hours.

“The results of the survey are reason for very great concern and call for immediate action [by] all involved parties, to get working on a solution and lowering these [survey] percentages sharply down,” said Mr van Zwol.

Ryanair said it would not comment on the Ryanair Pilot Group or its survey, which is due to be outlined in a Channel 4 “Dispatches” programme on Monday. It also would not comment on whether any of its pilots were on zero-hours contracts.

Ryanair’s 2013 annual report said safety is the company’s “primary priority”, starting with the hiring and training of its pilots, flight attendants and maintenance staff.

Employees earn productivity-based incentive payments, including some for pilots based on their number of flying hours.

But the annual report said Ryanair pilots are subject to limits of 900 flying hours each financial year, as determined by Irish regulators.

It added the average number of flying hours by pilots in 2013 was approximately 798 – a 5 per cent decline compared to 2012.

[crewmeal]

Here's the Daily Mail to stir things up

Ryanair pilots 'bullied into silence over safety': Two-thirds say they are not comfortable raising fears with bosses | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2389557/Ryanair-pilots-bullied-silence-safety-Two-thirds-say-comfortable-raising-fears-bosses.html)

[Timothy Quinn]

Since they had their HS748,I cannot remember a single fatality with Ryanair,they must be doing something good!And re gripes etc,oversupply dictates the terms,it happens in every walk of life.
Long live Ryanair,they changed the whole aviation landscape in Europe for the better.

[Capetonian]

Statistically Ryanair are safer than BA.

Despite that, I would not put my mother-in-law's dog on Ryanair, for many reasons.

[LCYslicker]

Channel 4, Monday evening 12 Aug at 8pm.
From the trailer, it is going to have a go at safety on the flight deck, particularly fuel policy, with anonymous interviews.
Their last go at Ryanair provoked a noisy defence as I recall.
Should be an interesting evening.....

[StainesFS]

A similar thread has only just been moved to Spectator's Balcony.

[A and C]

I await this with interest, the media has a long reputation for misinterpreting technical subjects so I don't expect too much.

If they are going to focus on the safety issues surrounding the Madrid incidents I think that it is not Ryanair they should be looking at.

However I will keep an open mind until I have seen the program.

[LouthGirl]

http://www.pprune.org/spectators-balcony-spotters-corner/521153-ryanair-secrets-cockpit.html

[SLFguy]

I have no idea what the conditions are like,

but I know a lot of pilots there.

None of them say it's as bad as what you are lead to believe on PPRuNe and TV.

Does not compute.

[BOAC]

I would not put my mother-in-law's dog on Ryanair - MIL, I assume, a prime candidate?:)

[GobonaStick]

the media has a long reputation for misinterpreting technical subjects so I don't expect too much


A reputation spread by people who only read the Daily Mail and watch chewing-gum TV to learn about technical subjects, to be fair.

[A and C]

The employment model for Ryanair staff is one of insecurity and is not conducive to family life as Ryanair can change a persons base from one end of Europe to another at the drop of a hat.

If having a workforce that is living in fear of having their world turned upsidedown in an instant is changing the European aviation landscape for the better then I think we must be living at different ends of the moral scale.

I have to say that I favour the more balanced veiw of the girls from Facinating Aida.

[drach]

I think we are missing something quite fundamental here, lots of the pilots are only paid when they fly , this in its self is a huge burden to carry,
You cannot afford to be sick, and equally you cannot afford to fly, what do you do? It is wrong. Aviation has been turned on its head with Ryanair, and I for one believe that pilots should not be paid only when they put there butts on seats, I agree that extra pay should be accrued when you fly but not all.

I think we as a profession have been divided and it will be to our great cost, we should all demand that employers do not make aviation a money at all costs industry, because if you have no money to pay bills etc you will fly when you are sick, is that really what we want?
Do we let the likes of O Leary dictate the terms of our profession ?I think a letter to MPs etc is in order before they all join in. Coming to an airline near you?

[Timothy Quinn]

While the majors across Europe enjoyed sinful amounts of taxpayers money and inflated workforces along with the Anglo French supersonic white elephant,the little people went by bus!
But all that's gone now and they travel by Airbus or Boeing.

[A and C]

But the likes of Easyjet , Jet2, Air Berlin & Norwegian can offer competitive low cost travel without the staff insecurity that is part of the Ryanair culture and is clearly intended to keep the workforce passive.

[cockney steve]

Whatever the rights and wrongs of the issue, were I to take another RYR flight, I'd tell myself the following:-

The company has a wonderful safety -record.

The F.D. crew will arrive at an accident before me, without the benefit of as much energy-dissipating structure in front of them

The aircraft are modern and of well -established and proven design.

(I'll ignore the garish and utilitarian internal decor, it made a motor-coach look positively luxurious. )

Provided you resist all weasel wording, attempts to sell you un-needed, over-priced peripherals and comply with all the labarynthine terms and conditions, It's possible to avail yourself of very cheap transport over a long distance.


I'll reiterate something I said a long while ago......
RYR aircrew would do better to buy shares in the company.
That way, they'd get dividends back from their own efforts,- they'd enjoy some of the bounty they currently earn for MoL and his cohorts.
Given the number of pilots who are now in RPG, they'd have , at , say £10 a week each, a goodly purchasing power...apart from the "Divi" covering the RPG overheads, it could be used to buy further shares, thus compounding the growth of their holding.

A group of shareholders thus-empowered could make a real difference to the company AGM.

Bleating about being hard-done by, hasn't got anywhere...putting your money on the line, would change things......of course, there's always a risk the firm will go T.U. and you'd lose the lot......but that's why investors take so much profit.:8

[A and C]

You make some very good points, but the RYR sales policy is all about selling people things that they don't need and for this I refer you back to the girls of Facinating Aida.

As for the staff getting hold of shares........ I like that !

[Evanelpus]

Since they had their HS748,I cannot remember a single fatality with Ryanair,they must be doing something good!And re gripes etc,oversupply dictates the terms,it happens in every walk of life.
Long live Ryanair,they changed the whole aviation landscape in Europe for the better.

To be sung to the tune of "we'll support you ever more"

Are you O'Leary in disguise, Are you O'Leary in disguise?

[The Grim Reaper]

shortfinals:

Here's an independent view of life in the boardroom and crewroom at Ryanair: In the crewroom at Ryanair | Learmount

Independent? Are you having a laugh???

[Sober Lark]

I assume Channel 4, the FT and others who quote from 'the survey' have actually examined the RYR Pilot Group's methodology and reliability of the conclusions claimed? Is the survey publicly available?

[Argonautical]

A couple of weeks ago, an Emirates 777, at Birmingham, blew away some of the runway at the far end of runway 150. The runway was closed for about an hour while it was fixed and all incoming flights put into a hold. The only flight who constantly called up ATC about when it was going to re-open again, because of fuel concerns, was a RyanAir flight.

[Dan Winterland]

The company has a wonderful safety -record

They have had their moments - I would call it good. But your luck will probably run out when you keep pushing the limits and treat the regulations as targets. Speaking as a flight safety manager in a legacy airline, I would say the only thing keeping the RYR show on the straight and narrow (comparing like for like with other LOCO operation in Asia) sis the skill of their pilots and their standards. But with the pressure their main asset is under at the moment; IMHO, it's only a matter of time before the holes in the Swiss cheese line up.

I hope I'm wrong - but I have a serious foreboding about the operational philosophy of RYR. I for one, won't fly with them.

[slip and turn]

I have a copy of the certified results from the independent survey company. I am sure if you ask an RPG pilot he will forward you the pdf (I don't work for Ryanair).Ryanair are saying it's the NRPG (http://www.ryanair.com/en/news/ryanair-statement-on-so-called-pilots-survey) where N is for Non ...

Meantime, if anyone RPG or NRPG pilot can forward the survey results pdf I don't work for Ryanair either, but I will read it tomorrow on my umpteenth FR flight this year :\

[Sober Lark]

Thank you Grim Reaper. You've just proved my point. A survey can give you any conclusion you'd like it to give you. Even the wrong conclusion.

If the RYR Pilot Group survey holds any water then like the letters to every Tom, Dick and Harry that they publish in the public domain of their web site, in a similar manner they should have no fear in publishing full details of the actual survey they carried out for all to see.

[HundredPercentPlease]

Full details of the survey are here (http://www.channel4.com/info/press/news/dispatches-ryanair-pilots-concerned-about-passenger-safety).

[SpringHeeledJack]

I was under the impression that the CVR was something that had to be preserved after an incident/accident. If, as reported the CVR's of several Ryanair aircraft involved in incidents were wiped, then surely that must be an illegal act ?

If the very successful company that is Southwest Airlines in the USA can engender a very loyal and happy staff culture, I wonder why the very successful Ryanair, albeit based in several different regulatory environments has so many disenchanted staff? There's no doubt that the running of a tight ship will bring profit over time, but at what cost ? The fuel issue..... would a bit extra fuel for safety really eat into the room for profit on any given flight ?


SHJ

[slip and turn]

Just went to check on the price of a bag and found this has appeared in the last hour or so on the Ryanair front page:
RYANAIR RELEASES CHANNEL 4 DISPATCHES LETTERS (http://www.ryanair.com/en/news/ryanair-releases-channel-4-dispatches-letters)
They can't help themselves, it seems. I do hope their minds are concentrated on flying again once the doors closed tomorrow.

[pasir]

I am not qualified to seriously comment on Tonights Ryanair programme
other than to feel uncomfortable about their fuel safety margins if true.
Having seen and heard Mr O'leary I am reminded of a wily fox .

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Basically you've got your spineless Ryanair pilot who's too scared to carry extra fuel whining about a bit of pressure from management.

The decision on fuel is the captains, by law. If you don't carry extra when you think you might need it then I'd say you're acting rather unprofessionally.

It's not unsafe to carry "plog fuel" but may or may not be the most commercially sensible choice given the circumstances on the day.

[Sober Lark]

Thank you 100%.

What is the name of the independent survey company that designed, scripted, and analysed the data to produce the findings that Channel 4 have used?

[shaun ryder]

Lord Spandex Masher = TW:mad:T

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Good one Shaun. Perhaps, instead of the ad hominem, you could address some of the subject matter.

[shaun ryder]

I am firm believer that our colleagues in this company are under more pressure than the rest of us to carry less excess fuel. I do not think that they are spineless for speaking up. I think that the doco mentioned one or two hundred extra as a norm, in a 738 is a bit close to the wire in my opinion. Commercial concerns seem to be overtaking airmanship. Not good.

[Aldente]

Can't help feeling that if PPRuNe had the guts to place this thread where it belonged i.e. in the "Rumours and News" section frequented by a few more PILOTS, we would get some more balanced views from slightly more technically informed contributors. Too many comments from SLF happy with their cheap tickets to Ibiza here.

"Spottters corner" hardly seems appropriate, still that's where the PPRuNe mods have seen fit to hide it these days.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Yeah, so they're spineless for not using good airmanship and taking extra when its needed, because they feel under more pressure.

Why do you think 200kgs is "a bit close to the wire"? I've not taken more than minimum fuel for weeks (rounded up to the nearest hundred), not because I'm under pressure to, which I suppose I am, but because there's been no need to.

Are you one of those types who always takes extra for no reason?

[shaun ryder]

You carry on LSM, top marks!

[Lord Spandex Masher]

I will, until I think I need to take more and then I'll do that too.

So, are you?

[shaun ryder]

Spandex

There are a myriad of reasons that one may elect to carry extra fuel, if you are alluding that I just bang on a few hundred extra for the hell of it, then you are barking up the wrong tree mate.

As for 'those types' who consistently fly around with the bare minimum good luck to you.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

FRFO, my opinion on Ryanair contracts is documented somewhere hereabouts. Briefly, no, I don't think it is reasonable.

To stand up to management you need a spine, or balls but preferably both and the law. It seems that Ryanair ask you to justify your fuel decision making. If there was no justification to carry extra fuel then did it need to be carried?

Shaun, you don't say! I'm not alluding to anything. I asked you a question. You said that 200 kgs extra was a bit too close to the wire, I take it from that that you always carry more than 200 kgs extra fuel so you aren't as close to the wire as you would be. Why? What's the wire?

And if you think it's the bare minimum then I politely suggest you revisit the fuel planning section of your Ops manual.

[shaun ryder]

Ok thats fine I will, noted.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

And answer the questions?

[HundredPercentPlease]

Sober Lark,

Simply Voting Online Election System (http://www.simplyvoting.com/)

[shaun ryder]

Lord,

Having to explain the reasons for carrying extra fuel to management is in itself a barrier to good airmanship. You can not disagree that this can have some bearing on decision making about fuel carried. Unfortunately for them they do not have the luxury that you and I most likely enjoy in not having to answer to management about OUR decisions during the day. Yes we will most likely have the balls to answer to them (they wont ask), thing is our jobs wont be on the line because of it. These guys operate millions of pounds of equipment carrying hundreds of pax and they are being questioned on their judgement rather than being left to carry out their jobs as professionals.

[slip and turn]

Why do you think 200kgs is "a bit close to the wire"? I've not taken more than minimum fuel for weeks (rounded up to the nearest hundred), not because I'm under pressure to, which I suppose I am, but because there's been no need to.I wasn't absolutely sure before, but now I am ... so we have clowns out there flying planes who think their pre-flight measurements of existing fuel and calculations of fuel burn to empty on a particular route on a particular day are ALWAYS accurate to within 1 and bit kilos of fuel per passenger :hmm: ... must be bloody powerful stuff that JetA1 ... I wouldn't try it in my 5 seat diesel ... the donkey might splutter and give up somewhere embarrassing.

Clearly some of these things are not being flown by scientific or engineering minds who easily understand that calculating the size of the likely error in their main calculation is more important than committing aviation on the strength that the man who wrote the manual and the EAA can worry about errors and whether the standard method fits the day. I just knew we'd be bound by now to have a significant number of ex bloody traders in cockpits who know the price of everything and the value of nothing including that of their lives or ours and are prepared to gamble both on their limited mindsets day after day and claim management plaudits for it.

[shaun ryder]

In agreement with that it's nothing more than a computer generated PLOG that tells you how much your minimum fuel is for the flight. It does not take into consideration any ATC delays, tech problems or anything else which you may care to add.

[FRFO]

I think we're mostly simging from the same hymn sheet, but to be pedantic isn't the fact that the plogs cannot be perfectly accurate accounted for by the 5% contingency. If the legal minimum aint enough to cover 99.9% of sectors then the legal minimum needs to be adjusted. The greater issue is whether captains feel at liberty to use their experience and airmanship to take extra fuel without pressure or interference from outside influences.

[The Grim Reaper]

For the record, RYR PLOG's are not aircraft specific, as with some companies, are not always accurate (you need experience to spot that) and as for the written explanation, sure you can and I personally never had a problem - except for the Base Capt BCN who never accepted any decision to take more than minimum fuel - BUT, and it's a BIG but, if you are a young, inexperienced Capt who has flown for no other airline than RYR and you PERCEIVE that you might just be in trouble, get demoted, have your base changed if you are marked out as a persistent offender, this isn't always the case.
The fear of repercussions in RYR is real. I didn't always say yes and I did take the fuel that I felt was required (and I'm also happy to fly min fuel when appropriate). The end result? I was fired by Brookfield for 'non-compliance' with my contract after refusing to carry out an unreasonable and unsafe duty.
I could afford to do so with the experience level and contacts that I have built up over the years. Not so for the newly qualified 4000hr Capts.

[The Grim Reaper]

Sober Lark

It's very simple.

Ask a question (to the VERIFIED pilot member)

Get a response. (Yes, No a. b. c. etc)

From this very simple format you can work out who has responded in which way and give a simple breakdown of the results in percentage terms.

Do you understand?

a.) YES

b.) NO

:8

[The Grim Reaper]

Lord Spandex Masher:

(Nice but slightly weird handle btw!)

Ref: Balls and Spine - Yes it would be nice if all RYR pilots had these in abundance. But when any action on an individual basis can easily lead to you losing the means to pay your mortgage every month it is a tough call. This is why collective representation is so important - then the RYR management would be unable to single out pilots for 'special treatment'. Of course MOL knows this and that is why he is going to such great lengths to avoid it (killing RPG facebook and twi++er for example).

[PPRuNe Pop]

Pilots or Spotters? This forum is a runaway where many are in denial.

It's closed!