Regimental Mess silver of the 3 services

[PPRuNe Pop]

I have been a member of 5 regimental army messes. In that time those here of similar status, including officers, will know of the massive quantities of silver that is taken on charge 'somewhere' for 'safe keeping.' Where is it? Other thoughts associated with this must include the possibility that the silver may be required again should any mess be re-opened in the future. Looking increasingly unlikely as time goes on.

Also, there must be any number of pots and trophies from old regiments that will never see the light of day again.

So, what is the current MoD standing on this or who else is master of the vast amount of silver that probably runs into millions of pounds.

I can think of other questions as to its whereabouts but maybe there are known answers to many of the questions that stack up as thoughts run rampant.

There might just be a simple answer but I would really like to know.

PPP

[alfred_the_great]

The RN has a secure Trophy store in a major Dockyard, which is overseen by a "Trophy Committee" (5 Officers and SRs). The 'recycle' Mess Silver and Trophies from old ships to new ships, and also allow CO's to chose one or two pieces for their cabin if they so wish (or indeed, any Mess if they are willing to take it on charge and pay the insurance).

For the Army, obviously the Regimental Silver is exactly that - Regimentally owned. I know some of the Scottish Regiments have been selling theirs off recently.

[Biggus]

I think part of the thrust of the OPs comment was that, with the number of ships reducing, regiments disbanding, bases/messes closing, etc, then surely the pool of silver kept in safe keeping must be growing and growing, and any attempt at recycling will still mean that much of it never sees the light of day....

[alfred_the_great]

Possibly, but I know the Trophy Committee work quite hard to 'stock rotate' to ensure stuff is seen.

[PPRuNeUser0139]

I seem to remember that mess silver from disbanded RAF units was held at RAF Quedgeley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAF_Quedgeley).. but according to Wiki, it closed in 1995 - however, where the silver went is anyone's guess!

[Savoia]

Attended many a regimental dinner in the company of my late godfather. I recall that beneath the Officers Mess at Woolwich was a fair collection of displayed silver with, apparently, additional larger rooms in which greater quantities were stored!

There was also a none-too-shabby (and extensive) vintage wine collection.

Ubique

[Al R]

I sense a great heist script in the offing!

[Pontius Navigator]

There was a query from the Waddo CRO a few years back about a very large trophy, the Laurence Minot, which had last been won by 44 Sqn. Where was it?

I said that several trophies such as this and the Armament Officers' trophy had been in the corridor of the High Wycombe mess as you went to the dining room.

On investigation of the HW Silver Member the trophy was located in the officer of the CinC.

There really ought to be a bit more publicity about trophies such as those.

[Rosevidney1]

Most mess silver is of the highest standard of craftsmanship and I have particularly been impressed with the accuracy of the aircraft models. Perhaps they could be put on display in the RAF museum Hendon for others to admire. Likewise Army and Navy silverware could be displayed in their appropriate museums.

[Danny42C]

Slightly off-Thread: is there any central repository of original Unit (framed) badges (normally signed by the Sovereign) for disbanded Units ?

If so, does anyone know if it is possible to have a copy of one of these on line - and whom should I approach with my request?

I should be grateful for any suggestion.

D.

[tmmorris]

Danny,

Surely the College of Arms (http://www.college-of-arms.gov.uk/) is the place? They design the things.

Tim

[Danny42C]

Tim,

Thanks ! Have just followed your link and sent them an e-mail. Will let you know what happens.

Danny.

[NutLoose]

See

Naval, Military and R.A.F. Insignia - College of Arms (http://www.college-of-arms.gov.uk/services/naval-military-raf)

There were also these folks working through them

RAF Heraldry Trust Home Page (http://www.griffon.clara.net/rafh/heraldry.htm)

[Milo Minderbinder]

Some of it ends up in County or Regimental museums

I had a discussion about this a few years ago with a curator at a museum of one of the Yeomanry Regiments (Shropshires I think) and he said that on amalgamation / closure a lot was handed to the museum for "safe keeping" some was on display, some not. Can't remember where it was.....Ludlow maybe?
The rest ended up with the "Regimental Association" - must be an interesting legal situation to decide ownership in a dispute, as the Associations are effectively private members clubs. What happens when the members die? Does the MOD have a claim on it all?

There are some pieces in the City Museum at Lancaster (for example) as that also doubles as the museum of the Kings Own Regiment - which of course amalgamated with the Royal Borderers years ago, meaning some bits are in the Carlisle museum as they were passed on to the KORB Regiment -and then handed over later

[Danny42C]

Nutloose,

Thanks ! First link takes me back to College again. Second is more promising, at least they acknowledge the existence of my old unit, but preamble says "only badges which have been painted are included in bold italics".

"3608 Fighter Control Unit" is not in bold italics (so cannot get pic). But not painted ? I've a snap somewhere of self being presented with finished job, signed and framed, by Lord Lieutenant. Wonder what they mean ?

Will come out in the wash, I suppose,

Danny.

[Gerontocrat]

Savoia, ref silver at Woolwich. There is a nice tale attached to one of those pieces of silver.
A WRAC Lt, while ack-adj to a Gunner Regiment, announced she was engaged to be married. As the date approached, with invitations issued and all organised, the Officers' Mess made the customary presentation of an engraved piece of silver - not a cigarette case as was common in those days for male members of the Mess.
With only two days to go, she suddenly scrubbed the fixture and duly returned the gift to the PMC.
A few years later, she was at a formal dinner in Woolwich and, by a great coincidence, directly in front of her at the table, was her 'erstwhile' presentation piece of silver.
Turning to her neighbour, she enquired - all innocent like - as to the history of this engraved piece.
"Oh," he said, "that's a trophy awarded to the perpetrator of the biggest non-event of the year."
I am told it was lucky the lights were a bit low and her blushes were hidden.

[NutLoose]

Danny, did you read down the page on the first link?


Inspector of Royal Air Force Badges

The Inspector provides advice on all heraldic matters pertaining to the RAF, such as Squadron and Station Badges.
An archive of all official paintings is held at the College although this is not open to the public. Copy paintings of original badges may be commissioned on payment of a fee. Alternatively coloured photocopies of badges may be requested by letter after payment of a search fee of £20 (cheques to be made payable to The College of Arms).
Enquiries

Routine enquiries should be addressed directly to:
RAF Ceremonial Office
RAF Northolt
West End Road
Ruislip
Middlesex
HA4 6NG


The second link was / is a project to paint every unit in the RAF and hold them at Cranwell, people can sponsor them.

[sisemen]

From memory the big and important pieces are kept in a central repository and farmed out to units and squadrons as appropriate. The smaller pieces occasionally come up in Mess auctions.

I am the very proud possessor of two sugar/ginger shakers with the RAF Benson crest circa 1937.

[Roland Pulfrew]

Slightly off-Thread: is there any central repository of original Unit (framed) badges (normally signed by the Sovereign) for disbanded Units ?



ISTR remember the GAI dealing with the issue of badges stated where they should be sent to if a unit disbanded. My understanding is that the badges of all disbanded units remain the property of the RAF and should be returned to the Air Historical Branch for safe keeping - they certainly have a good collection on the corridor walls at Northolt. I remember one of the AHB staff saying that they had once intervened in an auction at one of the big auction houses that was selling a couple of original badges.

For those that haven't seen it before this website (http://www.griffon.clara.net/rafh/heraldry.htm) is worth a look (500 :eek: badges done but there are a few badges still to be sponsored). :ok:

Edited to add: I must look at other people's posts first. NutLoose beat me to it.

There are a few units that haven't been painted which are a little bit of a surprise given that they are active today (Brampton, Buchan, Episkopi, Halton, Henlow, Linton! etc All of the UASs bar Hull!!) - anyone based on any of those and who might put some pressure on the Stn Cdr or Unit Cdr to sponsor some more?

[Genstabler]

When my regiment was disbanded after about 350 years, the large items of Regimental Silver, such as centre pieces, were offered to the Regimental Headquartes and distributed if wanted among the remaining two battalions. If not wanted they remain in the Regimental Museum. The smaller items, ash trays, goblets, cruets etc were auctioned off to former members of the regiment. I have a small sweet dish dating back to the 1800s.

[Heathrow Harry]

that's no way to describe Mrs Genstabler.................

[Satellite_Driver]

I was House Member at RAF Henlow in the late '90s and the Mess silver included a number of items inherited from the former RAF Cardington. Taking pride of place was a splendid silver platter presented by (if I recall correctly) the town corporation of Bedford to the R101 - fortunately, not taken on its ill-fated flight.

(We also had a number of small original paintings by David Shepherd of various RAF aircraft. They were done in the 1960s as place mats and had been used as such until someone realised their value and they were framed and put on the ante-room wall!)

[Tankertrashnav]

Most mess silver is of the highest standard of craftsmanship and I have particularly been impressed with the accuracy of the aircraft models.


214 had a very fine silver Handley Page Harrow which had been made by Garrards, the crown jewellers in 1937.

Some time c 1975, during a particularly rowdy dining-in night the Harrow sustained Cat 4 damage when struck by some item of food. This necessitated a trip to Garrards by the squadron officer i/c silver. On his arrival at their premises an elderly gentleman was summoned from the depths of the back shop. He examined the aircraft, tutted, and said it had been in better shape when he last saw it. Turned out this guy had worked on the piece when it was being made almost 40 years earlier, and he was still there working at his craft in 1975. No short term contracts in those days!

Wonder where the Harrow is now?

[Danny42C]

Nutloose,

Thanks for the steer. But when the dread words "sponsor" and "fee" are heard (and I remember Chester Herald's fees: they weren't funny and it was just as well TAAFA was paying), I come all over faint.

Even suppose I empty piggy-bank and get wonderful painting or even a photocopy, will still have to get it on Post to embellish a past entry. With my abysmal computer skills that is a forlorn hope.

Hope the College will play ball and put it on an enclosure to e-mail. Will wait and see what happens and let Tim and you know.

Danny.

[Winco]

PPP and all,

have any of you been to Stafford lately and had a look around the RAF Museum 'reserve collection'??

It is staggering, literally unbelievable whats in storage there, including a great amount of squadron silver and other memorabilia.

If you can get to have a look around, it is well worth it on its own, but for your lost valuables, its a treasure trove!

Winco

[teeteringhead]

Makes one think of the sad end of one of the RAF's finest pieces - that was nicked from the Mess at Bracknell some years ago.

It had a good story behind it (for such a junior service!). Apparently it was presented in 1920 or so by an Irish Regiment who were disbanded after Irish independance - being a loyalist-ish lot, they apparently melted down all their mess silver to produce one enormous piece, which was engraved with words to the effect of "To a New Service beginning as an Old One ends" or similar.

Of course, before terrorism and security (!), I guess someone just pitched up to the Mess in a white van/brown dustcoat and took it away "for cleaning" or something. Almost certainly melted down - again! :(

I'll try and find a picture.

[Fareastdriver]

When I was O/C mess silver in the 60s I had a similar query. I was told that after the war all the redundant mess silver was stored at, I believe, Mildenhall. One day some trucks arrived with appropriate pieces of paper and they drove off with a sizable quantity of the collection.

The trucks were found abandoned a short time later.