RAF Combat Aircraft Holdings : Conventional Armed Forces in Europe Treaty

[CoffmanStarter]

These statistics were made public yesterday by DASA ...

MOD Equipment Holdings : CAF in Europe statistics (http://www.dasa.mod.uk/publications/equipment/c_f_e_vehicles_aircraft/2013/2013.pdf?PublishTime=09:30:00)

The data is at 1st Jan 2013 and naturally excludes our hardware based out in Afghanistan and the Falkland Islands.

Looking specifically at Section 4.02.03

http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/af162/CoffmanStarter/ScreenShot2013-08-02at075332_zpsd9e4136e.jpg

I noticed 64 Jag's along with 26 JP's declared. So they've been withdrawn from RAF service but who is sitting on them and where ?

There are/were a few Jag's at Bentwaters ... does any one know if these "holdings" have now diminished through sale and or destruction ?

I didn't post some of the sad pics of the Jag's at Bentwaters (easy to find with Google) ... very sad indeed :(

Sad reading the other stats ... under Section 4.02.08 ... I wonder how close we ever came to our ceiling of 900 Combat Aircraft in Europe ... we might need to go back two/three decades for that :(

As an aside ... it's interesting that the JP was counted "in" but the Tucano is "out"

It would seem this is the reason.

Primary trainer aircraft These aircraft are designed and constructed for primary flying training and means aircraft which may possess only limited armament capability necessary for basic training in weapon delivery techniques.

Best ...

Coff.

UK MOD DASA (http://www.dasa.mod.uk/applications/newWeb/www/index.php?page=47)

[Not_a_boffin]

Your Jags (50+) and JPs are mainly resident here.....

Demobbed - Out of Service British Military Aircraft (http://www.demobbed.org.uk/locations.php?location=8455)

[PhilipG]

Interesting that the number of Lightnings is increasing, where had they been before not to count?

[Stuff]

In addition to the ones at Cosford, some of the Jags are (were?) at Cranwell to give Engineering Officers something to play with during EST.

[MightyGem]

Hmm...Gazelles as attack helicopters. Mind you, I know of one that attacked a camel with the pilot firing his 9 milly. :}

[TomJoad]

In addition to the ones at Cosford, some of the Jags are (were?) at Cranwell to give Engineering Officers something to play with during EST.

That brings back memories - the Sqn sim , quite an enjoyable part of the course from what I remember; got to play at being rects controller, flems, JENGO etc. I seam to recall they also had a Hunter which could be used for ground runs; the CO of the college would come down and taxi it around the airfield for a few minutes to simulate a sortie then we would receive it back and do the after-flight. We were fortunate to have a good number of ex techies on our course, they kept us newbees straight. God bless you guys where ever you are, happy days.:ok:

[HughGw01]

As an ex CFE staff officer, we had to count them all gate guardians,museum pieces etc, unless they had been formally destroyed physically like the poor old Buccaneers at Lossiemouth when I was SATCO there. Carted out of the gate to the scrap yard in bits. I recall the Buccaneer at the petrol station in Elgin on the Lossiemouth road causing a little stir during one CFE inspection!

[GreenKnight121]

Interesting that the number of Lightnings is increasing, where had they been before not to count?

Obsolete non-operational equipment used as training aids, gate guardians, and museum pieces on CFE-declared sites.


They were on "non-CFE" sites, and have been moved to "CFE-declared" sites.

[PhilipG]

Thanks for that thought that was the reason, not delayed MOD procurement....

[Lima Juliet]

So what about the Hunter Gate Guards at RAF Valley, RAF Waddington (8 Sqn), RAF Halton and RAF Henlow? Don't they count?

LJ

[Wander00]

Now lets get to the important stuff - still declaring one Canberra - where, doing what, airworthy, or is it the Wyton gate guard?

[SirToppamHat]

I am sure I've posted this before, but Uk policy used to be to declare averything, including Gate Guardians and the like, in the same section as the actual in-service airframes. ISTR it just made it easier all round that trying to prove that a particular gate guardian was no longer decarable because its fuel tanks were full of concrete, main spar cut or whatever.

I don't think we ever got near the ceiling.

STH

[Wander00]

STH - thanks

[CoffmanStarter]

Interesting ...

So the above list also looks to be "ex" the MOD QinetiQ assets at BD ... no Alpha Jet's for example ?

[Pontius Navigator]

STH, true, we used to report a number Spartans even though they were up to their 'necks' in mud on the bombing range. New reporting officer saw sense and removed them from the count.

[Milo Minderbinder]

none of the stuff in the museum at Yeovilton included? Surely thats a CFE site? Or is the museum considered "outside" the base?

[TomJoad]

Ok really stupid question here so forgive in adavance. Is the CFE agreement still enforcable or has something else replaced it?

Tom

[CoffmanStarter]

Tom ...

No quick answer ... but have a "wade" here if you wish :ok:

CFE Fact Sheet (http://www.armscontrol.org/factsheet/cfe)

[60024]

I expect its the Canberra that is stuffed & mounted opposite the golf course at Marham
.

[CoffmanStarter]

I still think Wander00 has a Canberra locked up in his garage in France :)

[TEEEJ]

Milo,

In regards to Yeoviliton and CFE Treaty. Carrier-based aircraft were not included and there was a clause in regards to land-based naval aircraft. I don't think that Yeovilton was a CFE declared site. Certainly no Royal Navy sites listed.

The UK listed 70 CFE declared sites on the UK Mainland. All these were listed as RAF (14 sites) and Army (56 sites)

House of Commons - Defence - Minutes of Evidence (http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200203/cmselect/cmdfence/321/3022702.htm)

Declaration of the States Parties to the Treaty on Conventional Armed Forces in Europe with Respect to Land-Based Naval Aircraft

CONVENTIONAL WEAPONS (http://dosfan.lib.uic.edu/acda/factshee/conwpn/cfecomm.htm)

Museums covered in Section X.

CFE Treaty Article-by-Article (http://www.fas.org/nuke/control/cfe/text/artbyart/art7.htm)

[TomJoad]

Tom ...

No quick answer ... but have a "wade" here if you wish :ok:

CFE Fact Sheet (http://www.armscontrol.org/factsheet/cfe)

Thanks for that Coffman. So it would appear that there is an amended treaty to reflect the breakup of the former Soviet Union and the emergence of states it previously incorporated. From the article it would appear that the original treaty still stands though as not everybody is content to sign up to the amended version. I must admit to thinking at the time how much a pain in the arse the cfe inspections were - high priced help getting overly excited an all as they tend to do - but on more considered reflection cfe appears to have had an enduring positive legacy:


quote from articled linked by Coffman:

"member states have repeatedly touted the enduring value of the treaty's weapons limits and inspection regime, which provides an unprecedented degree of transparency on military holdings"

This kind of resonates with the Cold War thread. Just goes to show you can be part of history and not really appreciate it at the time

This is a really interesting thread, brings back so many memories - thanks for raising it Coffman.:D