Dick Smith looks at Fuel Costs

[10000]

The ABC will screen Dick Smith's “Ten Bucks a Litre” this Thursday evening, 1 August at 8.30pm.

It appears the program assesses and addresses future increases in fuel costs with a significant interest in the future cost of aviation fuel and the impact on our society.

There is also a segment on turning waste into fuel that could be used for aircraft.

Dick Smith's programs are generally very interesting, particularly exploring the impact on our Australian community.

Worth a watch on the ABC.

[peterc005]

Looks like an interesting show. Dick Smith seems to have all of the right motivations and I'm looking forward to watching it.

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

If Dick gets involved, it will end up costing you more.

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

But, your Safety will be enhanced....
:eek:

:}

[601]

If Dick gets involved, it will end up costing you more.

If it is produced in Oz, I am happy to pay.

If my pay is at first world rates, I do not expect others in Oz to work for nothing to try to compete with product produced with 3rd world wages paid overseas.

I was intrigued by a current affairs program advertorial on KMart where a middle class customer was over the moon because she could buy a pair of jeans for under $10.00.

I wondered to myself if she would be willing take a consummate pay cut equivalent to the reduction in the price of those KMart jeans compared to a pair of jeans made in Oz.

We are exporting all out manufacturing jobs overseas. We will soon be hit with large increases in gas prices once we start to export Qld CNG to the overseas markets in a big way.

As most of our new power stations are gas fired, this increase in gas cost will flow on to increased cost of power.

We should have introduced a policy, as they do so often in California to set a standard for all of the US, where XX% of new cars manufactured in or imported into the country are powered by CNG.

Why do we export a fuel like CNG and import liquid fuels at ever increasing cost when CNG can do the same job at a lower domestic cost, not one based on world parity.

[VH-XXX]

Don't worry, if this latest potential outback Australian oil find comes to fruition, we will potentially be the second largest oil exporter in the world and might get some pricing relief for a long time.

[Ultralights]

Don't worry, if this latest potential outback Australian oil find comes to fruition, we will potentially be the second largest oil exporter in the world and might get some pricing relief for a long time.
Im pretty sure there is a very large oil reserve in Oz, the oldest continent, and most was an ocean floor at some time in the past...

as for cheaper if we become a world oil producing power, HAHAHAHA this IS Australia remember, we will sell it cheap offshore, then buy it back at a stupidly high markup. do you think the green groups will allow new refineries? Sydney is in the process of closing down its last refinery as we speak. :ugh:

[Mick Stuped]

XXX, doesn't matter how much oil we produce the price at the bowser will never drop dramatically to many big players making to much money to worry about the little guy.

Its a worry that we are loosing avgas refinery's with shortly only Kwinana producing it I am informed.

Shortly all avgas will be imported so no wonder diesels are becoming popular as the sky will be the limit for the Avgas price pardon the pun:rolleyes: however I am sure JetA1 will be hard on its heels as well.

Best I have paid for Avgas lately in the outback was drum fuel at $4.95 per litre and the average in the bush is around the $3.00 per litre and you have to take the whole drum.

This is mainly due to the fact that it has to be drum fuel and trucked in if they sell small amounts or the only other option for bulk supplier they have to take a full tanker at a time as they are no longer allowed to mix fuel types on the same load for a remote delivery due to contamination issues between fuels.

Farmers/Miners can be claim the excise back for fuel both diesel and UL they can even claim a portion of on road fuels used as well. Why cannot air operators that supply a vital need to the bush get some respite from the increasing costs and be able to claim back fuel taxes for business use as well for fuel?

At the end of the day Aviation is keeping cars off roads so reducing the outback road repair costs, burning less fuel per km than a car so less carbon emissions, and all those good green things yet the powers that be seem hell bent on destroying the reason that kicked aviation off all those years ago, the basic need to service remote and rural Australia.

[porch monkey]

Cheaper? You're kidding, aren't you? As long as we are tied to world parity pricing, we pay the market rate for oil. And will continue to do so. What I want to know is how the government can justify this country selling gas to other countries at 3-6 cents per litre. How much are you paying for lpg for your car? Why?

[Super Cecil]

Remember in 1974 when big Mal started parody pricing they said there was only enough oil in the world to last 30 years? :8

[pull-up-terrain]

Isn't there some heaps big oil reserve in south Australia that could be used when we start running out of reserves that are easy to extract.

Major oil discovery in outback SA - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-01-24/major-oil-discovery-in-outback-sa/4481982)

[VH-XXX]

Yes PUT, thanks for the link, exactly the new oil reserve I was referring to earlier.

If they can sort out the extraction issues, Australia will be an oil powerhouse for a long time.

[pull-up-terrain]

If they can sort out the extraction issues, Australia will be an oil powerhouse for a long time.

They are able to extract it now if they wanted to, but the profit margin isn't obviously as good as what oil companies are currently able to achieve. Hopefully this will be up and running before we see $10 a litre prices.

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Well, here's a diesel / Jet A1 powered C-172 that the Yanks are developing to counter the rising Avgas prices and the availability problem....

Redbird Launches a Diesel Skyhawk Conversion Project - AVweb flash Article (http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/Redbird-Launches-a-Diesel-Skyhawk-Conversion-Project220230-1.html)

'Redbird Simulations' is the company using the Continental / ex Thielert engine. Operational costs to be published in October.......hopefully....

Cheers:ok:

[Andy_RR]

The Australian domestic natural gas market isn't big enough to justify investment into the exploration and production for the local market only.

If we didn't allow export of the large proportion of our gas reserves, gas would either be really expensive here or non-existent since no-one would bother investing to produce.

Melbourne only gets gas because Bass Strait oil is nearby. If the Bass Strait oil production was any further from civilization, it'd just be flared off, such is the nuisance of it.

Ironic that a 10-buck gas program comes from the bloke who thinks this nation can't sustain a much larger population. Without our resource exports, we couldn't sustain the micro population we have!

[T28D]

There is an old but tested saying "price is what the market will bear"

All the chest beating in the world and wild prognosis in respect to supply interruptions or shortfalls will not change the simple dynamic, it is the market that determines price and availability.

[Wally Mk2]

In some ways we are missing the point here. This country is so far down the gurgler deficit wise that any new found wealth will be taken by the fools at the top by way of TAXES to pay for monumental stuff ups in recent times.

The Yanks are spending money faster than they can print it, we are doing like wise via taxes, spending it faster than the buggers can rip it out of us.
I haven't owned ('till recently) a petrol driven car in over 25 yrs, Gas has saved me a fortune!
Aussies love their cars mainly due lousy public transport & vast distances we need to travel so it would be a pure novelty to have a Govt that helped it's own electorate.....God now there's a garden fairy Gnome story if I've ever heard one!
As for avgas?.....Gee only the rich use that stuff so they can pay!!!:E

Australians simply don't look after their own, never have I reckon.

Wmk2

[OZBUSDRIVER]

I will not partake in Dick bashing....ok...just this once....YOU ARE WRONG, DICK...AGAIN!

Ten bucks a litre....jesssuus priest! Like he said last night on Sky, inflation will eventually raise the price...as well as wages and everything else. For a start, Link Energy...the guys who have the tenements in SA...can make diesel for $0.60 per litre now. Granted, the taxman will "equalise" that product. Technology will always fill a niche. We consumers will adapt that technology to our everyday lives as the economic argument merges with the reality. At work today we were commenting on how long we will be producing out of Bass Strait. When Long Island Point started in the early seventies, five ships a week exporting crude, now, it is about one a month. Most of the product coming out now is gas. It will still be producing for another thirty years. Short of another giant field off Tasmania...it will only be small fields by comparison. However, we have another five hundred years worth of that dirty brown coal in the Latrobe valley, let alone, an equally as big field that comes down under French's Island as well as south of Bacchus Marsh...this stuff is excellent for turning into diesel, just ask the Germans. If we can keep some of that natural gas from being exported we can convert to liquid fuel cheap, not to mention power the same trucks with LNG. Technology is there, it works, it just needs to be adapted to common usage.

Bloody CO2...hot air...tax! The only reason brown coal is "dirty" is because there is so much of it, no one can be bothered reducing the moisture content. Just burn more of it! Apply temperature and pressure changes the crystalline structure from hydroscopic to hydrophobic, reduces moisture content from about 60% to 18%...technology! Get more energy from the same tonne means less tonnes burnt meaning less bloody CO2. It just isn't sexy enough for the media. But, sorry Dick, hydrocarbons are going to be used for a very long time into the future....unless the taxman artificially changes the economics.

[601]

big enough to justify investment into the exploration and production for the local market only

The exploration and production is complete. We have been using gas in power stations for a while now

All we need is a Govt with b@lls instead of budgies or rectangular glasses to legislate that a growing % of vehicles in this country shall be run on CNG. The same as we have to reduce CO2 by X% by 2020. Other countries do it, why can't we?

Additionally, require all Govt (Federal, State and local) purchased vehicles be Oz made and run on CNG. Other than public servants who are required to go off road, no public servant needs a $100,000+ landcruiser to toddle around the city.

[Flying Binghi]

via 601:
.....I was intrigued by a current affairs program advertorial on KMart where a middle class customer was over the moon because she could buy a pair of jeans for under $10.00.

I wondered to myself if she would be willing take a consummate pay cut equivalent to the reduction in the price of those KMart jeans compared to a pair of jeans made in Oz...

Remains of the day..:hmm:









.

[Flying Binghi]

Seems China is doing the sensible thing..:cool:

"...Shenhua has stated that its first CTL plant, a direct liquefaction facility in the Ordos Basin, has an all-in cost of $60 per barrel and that it is very profitable...."


Quadrant Online - China's coal-to-liquid gambit (http://www.quadrant.org.au/blogs/doomed-planet/2013/05/china-s-coal-to-liquid-gambit)










.

[Shagpile]

Seems China is doing the sensible thing..

I'm hearing this phrase more and more lately. It's because their leadership all have engineering and scientific backgrounds. Our leaders are professional politicians.

Give it 15 years when we run out of red dirt and we'll be the banana republic of SE Asia.

Edit: example, liquid fluoride thorium reactor technology. About a million advantages over conventional nuclear plants. Passive safety, doesn't require pressurised cooling, can be miniaturised (ie possibility powering aircraft). I'd rather live next to one of these than live in Latrobe Valley or next to a liquid energy storage facility (benzene = known carcinogen). Thorium 4x more abundant than Uranium. Doesn't produce stuff to make weapons, can be used to 'burn' up other waste. We have lots of Thorium and it's dirt cheap. Guess which country beginning with 'C' and rhymes with miner is developing it. Hint: Not us

[RatsoreA]

That wasn't a bad watch... And it had plenty of airplane porn in it as well! Didn't go very deep, but what can you do with such a large subject in 60 minutes of TV?

A good point that there isn't a politician in the land that would have the cojones to do something large and 'nation building' like the Snowy mountains scheme was.

[Desert Flower]

Isn't there some heaps big oil reserve in south Australia that could be used when we start running out of reserves that are easy to extract.

There is oil to be had out of the shale in Leigh Creek too - no mention of that anywhere though.
Also rumour has it that years ago someone was drilling for water in the S.A. outback when up came black gold. Well was capped, big fence built around it, & no-one is allowed near it.

DF.

[dubbleyew eight]

I cannot believe the arrogant stupidity shown in the program by Dick.

During the program he is shown flying his turbine powered Augusta 109 chopper, a turbine powered Cessna Caravan, His Citation (??) jet and a flying wing weight shift ultralight.
here is a guy using fuel at a rate 500 times faster than I ever will and the gist of his program is that we should all be cutting back on greenhouse emissions.

Dick you need to lead by example. flogging people until the morale improves will never work.

my friend is not technologically aware and even she complained that the program was a meaningless superficial nonsense.

a total waste of effort mate.

[Aussie Bob]

Couldn't agree more dubbleyew, I don't own a TV but I was house sitting last night and decieded on a night of ABC. From the news onwards it got worse, finally before Dick could even finish I used to off button and retired to bed thankful that I don't own a TV.

Total ****e Dick when you burn fuel like there is no tomorrow while talking up a shortage.

[RatsoreA]

W8,

I'd be inclined to disagree with you...

The way complain about it, I get the impression you think he used all those assets and fuel in an afternoon. That doco was 12 months in the making. You would really deny Dick, or anyone for that matter, the use of the fruits of his labors?

In that case, why not critisize the family he interviewed for having 4 plasma TV's and 3 spilt cycle airconditioning units?

I never got the impression that he was flogging anyone?

So someone that had no idea what the program was about, thought it was meaningless...? :ugh:

It's easy to sit back and critisize, so much harder to go out there and do something yourself. :hmm:

[dubbleyew eight]

Rats I have no envy regarding the type or number of aircraft that Dick Smith owns. none at all.
I have no problem with him flying them either.

I suppose a parallel in recent history is the meeting with Obama where it was noticed that all the protagonists pleading that the automotive industry were on the bones of their arses and needed a financial bailout had all flown to the meeting in their private jets.

If you want to be believed then be believable.

[Mach E Avelli]

Whether or not it was 12 months in the making, condensing it into an hour gave the distinct impression that it was more about Dick showing us his flying prowess at the controls of various fossil-fuel burning toys. The only thing missing from his collection seemed to be a hot air balloon - and wouldn't one of those be appropriate!

At least he had the grace to admit that he was one of the big users of our finite resources. For more credibility as to his personal concern for our future he could have shot the flying scenes in a solar-powered Sonex and done the ground segments on a 250cc motor bike.

[601]

here is a guy using fuel at a rate 500 times faster than I ever will

He admitted that fact up front not like some others who preach that we have to cut back without disclosing their rate of consumption of fuels.

Sadly he missed "hot rock" technology as an alternative power source.

In the program, there was no mention of the energy cost of converting sawdust to oil.

As for 4 tvs 3 A/Cs, SS Holden and Mini Cooper what a waste.

[RatsoreA]

In the program, there was no mention of the energy cost of converting sawdust to oil.

Yeah, agreed, but the whole program was a little shallow and light on detail. But I think that's a bit of a by-product of the medium. With such a dense subject, with many differing opinions on it, I imagine it'd be hard to cram it all into an hour of TV. You probably could have done an hour just on the sawdust to oil production, and only scratched the surface.

But if it's a go-er, and means cheaper AvGas, I'll go out and get my chainsaw warmed up! :E

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Hi Rats, and you're going to power up the chainsaw with...??

:}

I couldn't quite get the 'gist' of how sawdust contains all of those ingredients to turn it into an oil......

Have I seen 'stuff' like this before..??

"Firepower' comes to mind.....

:E

[RatsoreA]

Griffo,

Don't point out the flaws in my nefarious plans!!!! :} If I have to use a hand saw, I will call you to help me! Anyway... Don't you have a bunch of old timber sitting down the back of a hangar somewhere? We can tear the fabric off it, take out all the metal bits up the front, and turn it into AvGas to power the Seneca!!!!! :E

If a tree needs to be turned into sawdust so that I may aviate, then so be it!!! :E

[Dick Smith]

Dam! I told the director to get the balloon in somewhere.

New director for the next doco!

[dubbleyew eight]

I love that pseudonym.
a cardinal pprune rule is that you dont "out" anyone and since you arent banned you obviously aren't Dick Smith.
I love it.
you had me going there a while back but never again.:=

[VH-XXX]

dubbleyew-eight, your post is pointless since Dick is one of only a handful using their real name ! Good on him for doing so. At a guess Dick is poking fun at himself about being the director.

I enjoyed it Dick and I learnt a lot !

[dubbleyew eight]

you havent convinced me.

I make no apologies for poking my finger in the ribs of this nonsense.
it is like the greens saying that we need to transition to new technologies.
what new technologies????

if australia ceased all activities that produced CO2 and produced none at all the world's CO2 would decrease by just 1%.
if we look at the sources of CO2 then we the plebs arent the significant contributors.

when BHP runs a ore train between Port Hedland and Newman and back with ore there are 3 locomotives hauling the train. each loco has 29,000 litres of diesel on board. how many trains do they run for the millions of tons of ore shipped. ...as an example.

when a road train departs Port Hedland for Broome I have seen trucks take on board $5,000 worth of diesel for the run. ...as an example.

the greatest sources of CO2 are our power stations. why not take some direct action and phase these out?
no we get hand wringing idiots running around telling us that we need to reduce the number of light globes and turn off air conditioners. for christ sake the economy NEEDS to turn over for the country to survive.

OK Dick. The helicopter, the Cessna and the Citation are lovely.
how are you going to reduce their CO2 emissions?
because that is what it is really all about.
reducing the big emitters achieves the greatest effect.

I only use 400 litres of avgas a year usually. I can live with my emissions.

(i havent mentioned airbus's or boeing's contributions because I'm an aviation enthusiast)

[Shagpile]

The good thing about the program was that it didn't blame anybody for anything. And he openly admitted to being one of the biggest fossil fuel users in the country. In fact I'm openly jealous - I'd be doing exactly the kind of thing Dick is doing if I had a jillion dollars! Hats off.

The program was about the future strategic direction of Australia's energy usage, as a whole. I thought it touched on everything important.

The only thing I wasn't sure about was when the solar/salt reactor guys said they could do the entire country, baseload included, for $8 per person per day. i.e. $3k per year. Unsure if that meant per household, or $6k. Dick said he didn't really believe it and moved on. I would have liked to hear a little more about why.

There's also a good article at phys.org about the Hydrogen/Solar economy which wasn't touched on. Probably because it's longer term & Dick was focusing on short/medium term:
How a Solar-Hydrogen Economy Could Supply the World's Energy Needs (http://phys.org/news170326193.html)

Essentially, out of renewable energy forms, Solar is the *only* that has enough energy, forever, to sustain the world. It is inevitable to switch to using the sun's energy to power the world. And using hydrogen as the liquid energy storage mechanism, made from electrolysis of water.

[Dick Smith]

Dubble, I wonder if you actually saw the doco.

I made it very clear that the worlds economic system depends on perpetual growth from the ever increasing burning of cheap fossil fuels.

I said it will only be a catastrophy that will stop us from doing this. This catastrophy may happen even though I hope it won't for my grandchidrens sake.

In the meantime high density energy such as oil will become more expensive as the extraction costs increase.

I also explained that the problem with renewables is that they are intermittent and so far storage costs are prohibitively expensive.

Just commonsense.

[Oracle1]

Wasn't really interested in this thread because I have heard it all before but I just cant resist smashing some myths.


1. CO2 Feeds plants it is not a poison. The temperature of the earth is governed by the sun, you know that massive nuclear reactor that has been around for billions of years. The carbon tax is simply a money churn and has has nothing to do with the environment. Its just another fiat currency.

2. The world is not running out of oil. There is lots of oil we just need to develop more efficient ways of recovering it. Oil is not produced by rotting plant matter, if it was we would already have run out. Oil comes from hydrocarbon gases that are being created from heat and pressure off the magma and then form condensates that start as LPG etc then form liquids (oil) and finally condense and solidify to form coal. Google adiabatic theory of oil.

3. We are paying too much for energy because a very small group of greedy sociopathic plutocrats control the worlds energy and are actively preventing by force of arms the competitive sale of oil. They are also distorting the development of new technologies that will give energy independence and freedom to the individual. The Chinese recognise this and eventually the clash of empires will lead to the next world conflict.

4. The planet has seen far far worse than us, think asteroids earthquakes and the first atmospheres as the planet formed. If the planet tires of us it will eliminate us as simple surface irritant much like fleas.

5. The real argument is this, is our current level of population matched to our technological ability to provide for it. We either provide or fall behind and conflict will reduce the population. The only answer is to advance our technology or we revert to stone age lifestyles and cull population.

6. We are circling the drain and thus far no one seems to have the courage to eliminate the current junta, perhaps the Chinese might do it for us. Our mediocrity and the decline of Western society seems unstoppable, read Spengler The Decline of the West.

[dubbleyew eight]

Dick I actually watched all the video.

dont get me wrong in all this your owning those wonderful aircraft is quite ok by me.

ok two questions.
is there a problem that will make the world as we know it unliveable?
if so what is the problem(s)?

...and dont say 'climate change' because the climate always changes. that is why the BOM has a job for life predicting what it will do next.

[Shagpile]

http://fathertheo.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/powell-climate-articles-chart1.png

Loved the comment by the kid saying the politicians should do something sensible about fossil fuels running out instead of chasing polls. Brilliant! A year 6 student can identify the complete leadership void in Canberra at the moment

[Oracle1]

Global Warming is one of the great hoaxes. Not because of the sheer numbers that are involved in it, nor for the hitherto unequalled sums of money it will generate for its perpetrators. It will go down in history as the worst wrong turn made by the human race. The arguments rage over weather (sic) the climate warms or cools, but in reality, our knowledge of the planets climate, though growing, is just a tiny blip in the history of Earth. We cannot extrapolate the behaviour of the atmosphere beyond a week. Yet the globalists would have us believe that the climate is warming because we are emitting tiny fractions of a gas that is measured in parts per million.

A large percentage of the population understand we are destroying the environment and ecosystems of the planet. Helped along by a media campaign of the usual nauseating orgy of self-flagellating guilt, the population have fallen hook line and sinker, and they are now ready to crash headlong into saving the planet. Henny Penny Wong says the sky is falling and we must act immediately for we will all die. The only way out is to create a tax on, wait for it, ENERGY!

Many of us have noticed changes in the weather, because weather changes, but what do those changes mean? Rather like the 13th century religious fanatics who argued over the hierarchy of archangels in heaven, the Climate Changers argue over a subject they know little about. The worth of the data the Climate Changers put out is of the same value as the religious dogma. Meanwhile the same guys that brought us the GFC are sitting back in the wings, sniffing the blood in the water, laughing at us for falling for the most basic scam of all, the world is ending.

The real danger, which the globalists have no intention of stopping, is the rape of the Earth's resources for profit. Vast swathes of forest disappearing, fisheries harvested to exhaustion, habitat destruction and the unparalleled species extinction rate (except homosapiens) are the reasons why Mother Nature will turn against us. It is not because we emit a gas that helps plants grow. It's because we have radically altered the face of the Earth.

The real tragedy of climate change will not be the amount of money that it will fleece from the population. It will be the missed opportunity of mankind to attack the real problem, overpopulation, by peaceful means. Make no mistake if this tax is passed into law it will be used to fund war and the population problem will be solved by violence, not by intellect. We stand at the dawn of the information age, empowered by our understanding. Will we succumb to our base animal instincts and destroy the Earth, or will we rise above our petty quarrels and fulfil our true role, to protect the Garden of Eden we are already in. What if we are alone in the universe?

[dubbleyew eight]

shagpile all of electrical theory is based on electrons flowing from the positive electrode to the negative electrode. it was accepted for years.

then they discovered that the electron has a negative charge....

the number of believers means nothing other than they believe.
however incorrectly they may believe.

[RatsoreA]

CO2 the basic facts (http://a-sceptical-mind.com/co2-the-basic-facts)

Not everybody that disagrees with the government is a crackpot.

TBH, I can't wait for TEOTWAWKI, preferably from a zombie apocalypse! But the government will probably just try and find a way to take the fun out of that as well. :}

[Dick Smith]

My doco was not about global warming or climate change.

No one knows for sure if human activity is effecting the climate.

The so called "supporters" of human induced climate change say they are 90% sure. The dis- believers are 120% sure.

I think I will stick to the more conservative view as being most likely.

[Oracle1]

Energy scarcity cannot be discussed without discussing Climate Change or the absence of it. In the current debate they are not mutually exclusive and one cannot be debated without addressing the other. It seems that like most of the 1% its do as I say not do as I do. I won't hold my breath awaiting you doing your bit Dick by parking up the toys. Meanwhile I will do my bit, burning heaps of hydrocarbons to improve the environment by helping plants to breathe, creating more rain by supposedly raising the temperature, and providing a market for the production of advanced engineering such as aviation, a skill set that will be part of the better future of the planet

[dubbleyew eight]

my hat goes off to you dick for supporting the sensible view.

so it really was about fuel hitting ten bucks a litre.

how much fuel do you use a year roughly?

[Dick Smith]

Have no idea. If I knew I would probably sell my aircraft.

I do have an electric car that has no fossil fuel input at all.

But that's just pure tokenism. Now awaiting an electric Agusta and Citation.

[Ultralights]

just saw a video on a Natural Gas powered Supercub... at Oshkosh. :ok:

and Pipistrel are developing a Hybrid and pure electric Panthera.

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t167/Gasser_photos/image_zps8a54cb27.jpg


and my next project is a Virus SW100, 100 Hp, multi point injected rotax, 15 ltrs and hour, 150 kts cruise.

the future of GA aviation technology is no longer in the USA. but Europe.. wonder just how much the legal system has strangled GA in the USA and most of the world.

[dubbleyew eight]

Dick I have the same attitude. accountancy has no part of aviation.

in the end it does not matter how much fuel you use. you love aviation.
and btw your fuel use, although higher than mine, is positively saintly in comparison to Kevin747 whose incompetence will in large measure push the fuel price to the level you suggest.


a late postscript: Dick if you sold your aeroplanes over some concern about fuel we'd (not you, us) be stuffed totally. We'd have nobody to envy :-)
We'd all just sit around feeling complacent and well off. There would be nothing to force us to strive beyond our crushing level of vanilla mediocrity.
You! owe it to us to luxuriate in wealth, to fly aeroplanes we'd polish for free.
Should you wish to accept the role it is your job to fly even more exotic aircraft and unsettle us into striving harder :D :ok:

[dubbleyew eight]

There is a guy at Headcorn in the UK who has installed solar panels over the entire large hangar roof. He was awaiting the delivery of 3 Cessna 182 sized aircraft which were installed with lithium cell electric power systems that would give two hours of flight. i forget the charge time but it was to be a totally solar powered off the grid system.

I wonder how it panned out in practise???

Does anyone on here hail from headcorn?

[Shagpile]

Yes you don't fly if you cannot afford the fuel! My rough guide is if you can't put the fuel docket in your wallet without looking at it, you probably should have a smaller engine.

I wouldn't be able to fill up a Learjet without looking at the fuel docket so it's clearly out of my budget!! But 50L once a week - awesome!

W8 - this is for you!! xkcd: Urgent Mission (http://xkcd.com/567/)

[Flying Binghi]

Havnt seen the program yet so i'm wondering if it touched on Methane Hydrate and CTL ?

As posted previously...

"...Shenhua has stated that its first CTL plant, a direct liquefaction facility in the Ordos Basin, has an all-in cost of $60 per barrel and that it is very profitable...."

Quadrant Online - China's coal-to-liquid gambit (http://www.quadrant.org.au/blogs/doomed-planet/2013/05/china-s-coal-to-liquid-gambit)


"... Japan announced this week it had successfully extracted gas from a deposit of frozen methane hydrates buried a little more than half a mile beneath the sea..."

Japan successfully extracts gas from offshore methane hydrates | Arcticgas.gov (http://www.arcticgas.gov/2013/japan-successfully-extracts-gas-offshore-methane-hydrates)


Both these fuel 'options' eliminate any fuel shortage argument.


Did the programme address these options ?












.

[Wally Mk2]

'Oracle1' I couldn't agree more with yr lengthy post regrading this scam:ok:
It's the 2nd biggest con since mankind arose from the waters, Religion was the first & look what that has done to the world, divided it, set fear amongst the masses & has been responsible for more deaths than any other.(personal opinion so relax God botheres!)

For the miniscule amount of time man has been around compared to who knows how long this piece of rock has been around the notion that we are making that big a difference in this tiny space of time is preposterous (luv that word & thank God....pun intended for spell checker)
By the time our great great great great great grand kids are adults I seriously doubt there will be anyone left standing anyway due mankind's own self destructive way of life (not climate change either).
Govt's has far more destructive power than anything man as a collective can inflict on the planet!

We use planes as a form of transport, it's still primitive & hasn't changed at all in principle since the Wrong Bro's kicked it all off & still using the most basic of fuels known to mankind (Hydrocarbons)so perhaps one day well after we here have all gone that man will invent a better 'mouse trap' but for now we slowly go round & round in circles achieving not much other than making things harder for ourselves with a lot of 'feel-good' actions being taken:ugh:.


Wmk2

[Aussie Bob]

I am with Wally here too

Edit: that awkward moment when a tin-foiler likens an entire scientific community to that of the 13th century church, who, well, persecuted scientists who's theories were correct..

If Oracle is a tin foiler, I am with the tin hat brigade. #44 (http://www.pprune.org/7974587-post44.html) (permalink (http://www.pprune.org/pacific-general-aviation-questions/520176-dick-smith-looks-fuel-costs-3.html#post7974587))

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Was there not a version of the 'Big Bad B-36' that was going to be nuke powered?
How was that going to work??
Aircraft stays airborne on virtually unlimited fuel = endurance of...??
(Crew grows old and dies...)
Or was the amount of water for the boiler the limiting factor...??
Toot Toot...!!!

Cheers :ok:

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

P.s. Hey Wal,

Father O'Reilly says to say 'hello'...
And next time, put something on the plate...

:}. :ok:

[Captain Nomad]

Wally I normally like your stuff but I reckon you are off the boil with your (commonly espoused view) of religion causing more deaths than anything else. On the other hand, you might be onto something here:

Govt's has far more destructive power than anything man as a collective can inflict on the planet!


And the ideologies behind said governments has a very important part to play with regards to those 'deaths.' I'm afraid when you compare the traditionally Christian based values of traditional western governments you generally have far more advanced tolerant and peaceful societies than governments that have tried to enforce or 'remove' a religion or religions. I'm afraid the records from history with Nazi and Communist regimes (as a 'recent' example, although extreme) don't provide either pleasant or successful results on that front - and the death count...?!!

What causes man to kill each other? Lack of true unselfish love and tolerance on the one hand and the presence of greed and evil on the other. I think it is going to take something greater than ourselves to fix that one...

However, moving right along as the moderators must be getting twitchy about this subject... :oh:

Would be great to see some vision from a government party that would be willing to stick their neck out on actually promoting some 'nation building' and embrace some technological advancements that would benefit everyone in the long term. Yep, I must be dreaming, I'll wake up now... :hmm:

[neville_nobody]

If climate change was real then you would want to push everyone into mass transit and make it efficient.

Airline Aviation is one of the most efficient forms of transport per unit and the motor car one of the least.

Yet out of some mysterious piece of political engineering aviation is painted as the bad guy and noone wants to take on the motor car.

If climate change is real then the motor car has to go. The biggest hypocrisy of the climate change believers is their lack of will power to get rid of the motor car. If you believe in climate change the motor car has to go, mass transit in Trams/Trains/Aeroplanes/Boats (sailing if you want to get fair dinkum) is the way forward, yet the greenies don't want to talk about it.

To fly anywhere in Australia you only need 2kms of bitumen at one end and 2km at the other the rest can be pristine wilderness if you want. Yet noone wants to tax the real cost of roads, or the loss of habitat to build your road. And sorry Dick you and all your private aviators will have to give up your private aircraft. You can get on with everybody else.

So until the climate change believers start getting rid of the motor car they're not serious.

Which tends to lead me to believe that it is all just a nefarious plot to what end am I yet to figure out. Ultimate form of taxation maybe?

[Wally Mk2]

That's fine 'Capt N' everyone here is entitled to an opinion (as mentioned)

The human race is still in it's infancy when compared to the universe as such so lets wait a little while longer (say another 1000 yrs which is still a blink of an eyelid) then we'll see what religion has done to the human race, if we are still here that is which I doubt! The few known fanatics over time Hitler to name but just one have or are only scratching the surface there lies a lot of distrust under that surface where religion is concerned.
Anyway that's my belief & I am not one for ignoring others different beliefs or having a go at them as long as it doesn't effect me directly so that's that:-):)

'Capt N' you will most probably be right there re the Mods with this thread, they will no doubt have a diff slant on things & will pounce real soon in an of course unbiased opinion.

'nev' I guess yr right there with planes being more efficient per bum but man has a real love affair for his car & Aussies are more in love with them than most I'd say so the Govt likes that fact so they can 'fiddle the books' using that particular high user group of fossil burning fuel to assist in their corrupt ways!
Wmk2

[le Pingouin]

Nothing mysterious about it Neville. People personally use cars far more often than they use aeroplanes so it has highly significant personal impact. Politically difficult. Mandatory efficiency would be a start.

Who is going to pay for all that extra mass transit? Government through taxation. Politically difficult. And anyway, no-one is talking about banning aviation.

Aviation is far easier to handle politically - relatively few people (i.e. voters) have a direct personal involvement aside from catching the occasional flight, and there are only a few major players to deal with.

I'm not sure why you feel the need to conjure nefarious conspiracy theories - it's pure politics. Everything is filtered through the distorting lens of political expediency, regardless of benefit or detriment to society. Benefit or detriment to political standing is what counts, and that includes looking after vested interests. I don't think scientists and environmentalists bring fat cheque books to the table.

[dubbleyew eight]

why is mass transit seen as efficient?
is bloody isn't.

I can drive my car from where I am to exactly where I need to go in the minimum possible time. it would take about half a day longer each day to do it on public transport.

as a carer driving about 400km per week to appointments life would be impossible without the time efficiencies of my car.

I'm told that the suburban rail system uses as much electricity as the entire rest of Perth. it is only environmentally friendly inside perth. in Collie the power station burns prodigious amounts of coal out of sight to move the trains along.

it's nonsense.

[Flying Binghi]

Hmmm... did anyone actually watch the whole thing ?

I'm wondering if Methane Hydrate and Coal to Liquid (CTL) were covered ?


Perhaps the main villain of the piece could tell me..:)










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[neville_nobody]

Mass transit becomes more efficient as more people use it. If you live in places like NYC, London or Singapore that's how you move.

In terms of fuel burnt per kg carried motor cars are terribly inefficient, not to mention all the roads you have to build free of carbon tax.

And anyway, no-one is talking about banning aviation.

However it is always trotted out like it's the bad guy when it is motor cars that are the issue but noone wants to even mention that.

[Dick Smith]

Flying. Nah. Didn't watch it fully myself. Too boring. But it is on ABC Iview

[Super Cecil]

Flying. Nah. Didn't watch it fully myself. Too boring. But it is on ABC Iview
:8 , they can do all the Dick bashing they like but they can't take away your sense of humour :}

[dubbleyew eight]

cecil I dont know that anyone here is bashing Dick at all.
it is just that the subject of his video fell in the centre of a much broader argument about the future of the planet, an argument full of pseudo science and nonsense.

[tecman]

Whatever you may think of it W8 it's not pseudo-science: it's science. You may have stunning insight which allows you to refute the bulk of the peer-reviewed publication in the western world, in which case your best bet is to publish your material and wait for the scientific method to converge on the best-fit model, presumably incorporating your corrections.

There have been many instances - some in my own field - where this has happened. That's the great thing that the the Western Enlightenment gave us: an objective, evidence-based process. It's not perfect but it sure beats the hell out of blind prejudice and unguided assertion. But please, tell it like it is: it's the current best-fit model of Western science, as practised by the bulk of its exponents, with which you're in dispute.

I watched Dick's program and, while I didn't personally hear any new material or angles, I thought it had considerable value in getting across the imperative for innovation and/or change. If you do what you've always done, etc. Let's hope it makes people a bit more critical of the superficial solutions being tossed around in the election period, although you wait a long time in Australia for sensible political comment on science.

Oh, and and I also loved the aeroplanes Dick :)

[dubbleyew eight]

if you want innovation and change in australia you need to sort out the tax system, the dead hand of certification and much of the government "management".

why is it that the solar panel industry was kick started with a 45c a kWh buyback scheme that was dropped eventually killing the entire industry?
Why did BP-Solar, producers of some of the very best panels, get out of the business?
government managerial incompetence.

why do General Motors - Holdens receive government subsidies when their best effort is to produce the world biggest production muscle car?
my mazda 121 jellybeans at 200,000km are still more fuel efficient than their small car offering. Cant holden do anything efficient?

if the tax system was put on to a sliding scale where a 100mpg car saw zero tax and a petrol guzzler was highly taxed with a sliding scale between according to fuel economy the face of australian motoring would change overnight.
more government managerial incompetence.

you may love the science (note that CERN will be rewriting much of that soon) but it is the management of the country that makes it happen.
we havent seen good management for years.

[Capn Bloggs]

why is it that the solar panel industry was kick started with a 45c a kWh buyback scheme that was dropped eventually killing the entire industry?

Killing the industry? Far from it. Solar panels are going gangbusters in Oz, they are currently installed at predicted 2030 levels despite winding back of the subsidies, and their cost has dropped 80% in a few years.

Rapid uptake of solar panels puts dent in electricity market, report shows - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-08-05/new-report-shows-rapid-take-up-of-solar-panels/4864954)

[dubbleyew eight]

hmmm. I havent seen any reduction in the cost of panels locally. I wonder if that is the fleecing aspect of the minerals boom.

[Wally Mk2]

Trouble is like any invention or good idea that saves money from the alternative it means someone is gunna lose & someone is gunna win money wise.

............"it's a poor mans invention if someone isn't making a profit out of it" There in lies the real problem with the word 'efficiencies'

I bought a property recently with solar planes on top & it's great, haven't paid a bill since in fact they pay me!:ok:

Moving man in real time simply is too costly, some one ought to re-run Star Trek & get some idea's:)

Wmk2

[601]

I bought a property recently with solar planes on top

Was the panels a plus or a negative to the sale?
Another way, did it influence you to buy the property or not?

[Flying Binghi]

via tecman:

...You may have stunning insight which allows you to refute the bulk of the peer-reviewed publication in the western world, in which case your best bet is to publish your material and wait for the scientific method to converge on the best-fit model, presumably incorporating your corrections. ...

Hmmm... tecman, if as you seem to claim here there is some sorta 'science' involved, perhaps you can provide the peer reviewed proof of the claims ?

[rutan around]

W8
hmmm. I havent seen any reduction in the cost of panels locally. I wonder if that is the fleecing aspect of the minerals boom.

All this statement does is show that the old adage is true: 'There's none so blind as he who will not see.'

[Capn Bloggs]

Here's some more for you to cogitate on, WU8:

Solar panel rate in WA quadruples - The West Australian (http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/breaking/16617749/solar-panel-rate-in-wa-quadruples/)

:ok:

[dubbleyew eight]

blindness eh?
just last night I was talking to the nipper about the feasibility of going totally off grid and looking at his system.

[Flying Binghi]

via tecman:
...although you wait a long time in Australia for sensible political comment on science.

tecman, i'm still waiting for your comment that will offer some proof of the 'science'..:hmm:

I've been covering the global warming nonsense in various forums for over 5 years now and have yet to see any actual 'proof' of claims outside of some computer climate model. Computer models that well enhance that old saying "garbage in = garbage out" (GIGO)

=====================================

On another related mater, i see the Oz government awarded, though miss-named, skeptical science web site has been discussing False Flag Operations.

Looks like the main Australian climate histeria web site has been carrying on like a bunch of immature kids... Again..:hmm:

Read all about it... SkepticalScience goes Godwin-Nazi or something « JoNova (http://joannenova.com.au/2013/08/skepticalscience-goes-godwin-nazi-or-something/#more-29904)






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[Flying Binghi]

via Capn Bloggs:
Here's some more for you to cogitate on, WU8:

Solar panel rate in WA quadruples - The West Australian

Hmmm... lets have a look-see...

via the Capn Bloggs link - "...factors fuelling the rush to solar panels included the more modest price paid to households for the excess power they produced, the fall in the retail prices of solar panels amid an influx of Chinese products and soaring electricity tariffs - which have risen 69 per cent in WA since 2009..."

So raising tariffs are the cause. Why have the tariffs been going up...


...Electricity tariff subsidies make up two per cent of general government expenses in 2013-14 or $554 million... No Cookies | Perth Now (http://www.perthnow.com.au/news/western-australia/state-government-to-save-51m-by-cutting-solar-tariff/story-fnhocxo3-1226693647312)

How stupid can yer get. Drive up power prices because of some climate fantasy..:hmm:

So now they still need to pay to have the power stations fer when the sun dont shine, massive amounts of taxpayer money is being wasted on unproductive infrastructure, power bills are higher making the state less competative and the Chinese solar manufactures are laughing all the way to the bank... real smart..:rolleyes:









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[T28D]

It would have been smart to subsidise the use of solar on the edge of grid, Laverton, Kambalda ect thus reducing the I squared R losses in the extended grid on hot summer days when Aircon is at peak, but the wise ???? guru's decided to subsidise the city folk in the lower loss areas.

One really does wonder about the ability of the "thinkers" setting public policy.

[dubbleyew eight]

ten or fifteen years ago in perth there was a drama since the doubling of the population had outstripped the storage of water.
everyone reduced their consumption of water as requested.
then there was a revenue shortfall in the water supply quango.
the water rates went up.

my son has been eyeing solar panels for some time waiting for the 80% drop in price to filter through. In Perth as far as we can see it hasn't changed.

the explanation for some suburbs showing huge uptake of the technology is that they are all being built from new. if you have a loan for an incomprehensibly large amount (typically half a million) to buy the home then adding the cost of solar still leaves the amount as incomprehensible. so they are doing it.

there was talk during the rebate scheme that some percentage of installations would actually never generate enough electricity to make up for the manufacturing costs. I wonder if that is still the case?
I'm not prejudiced against photo voltaics, I just wish the numbers were free of all the bulls**t and could be trusted.

the power generation qangos arent that financially viable. I wonder how much photovoltaics will cost us in increased support to the quangos?

[Flying Binghi]

...I wonder how much photovoltaics will cost us ...

Well, the solar lunacy has been around for long enuf to see. In Australia's case having a mining boom has hidden the sheer financial stupidity of solar and wind power. Hows it going overseas...

Spain caught the global warming stupidity in a big way. Massive investments in 'green' energy. The debt is climbing and they caint afford to pay for the solar subsidies, courts wont let 'em stop, so what do they do... TAX SUNLIGHT..:hmm:

Taxing Sunlight... No, I’m not kidding. Truly, idiocy has no bounds. In Spain, they appear to have actually done this, with fines up to 30 million Euros for non compliance.

Proving that idiocy truly has no bounds, Spain issued a "royal decree" taxing sunlight gatherers. The state threatens fines as much as 30 million euros for those who illegally gather sunlight without paying a tax.

The tax is just enough to make sure that homeowners cannot gather and store solar energy cheaper than state-sponsored providers...
continues...
Climate Craziness of the Week ? taxing sunlight | Watts Up With That? (http://wattsupwiththat.com/2013/07/26/climate-craziness-of-the-week-taxing-sunlight/)









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[OZBUSDRIVER]

Benny Peiser: Europe Pulls The Plug On Its Green Future
Date: 09/08/13

Benny Peiser, The Australian

give us a sec, bludy phone will not let me do this in one hit

[dubbleyew eight]

talking to the daughter today about her solar system.
the sunlight tax is already in place in west oz.
if you hook a solar system into the grid you automatically pay for power you use from the grid at a higher base rate to compensate.

she knows of people who have overcome this by building a battery storage room in the back yard and taking themselves totally off grid.
her friend who did this spent $50,000 on the installation.

makes me wonder what the actual economics of all that work to go off grid actually are over the lifetime of the installation.

[Flying Binghi]

Heres the link i think OZBUSDRIVER were trying to give...

Benny Peiser: Europe Pulls The Plug On Its Green Future | The Global Warming Policy Foundation (GWPF) (http://www.thegwpf.org/benny-peiser-europe-pulls-plug-green-future/)

And Joanne Nova with some comments...

The price of moral-vanity: A catalogue of Green economic disaster unfolds across Europe « JoNova (http://joannenova.com.au/2013/08/the-price-of-moral-vanity-a-catalogue-of-green-economic-disaster-unfolds-across-europe/)






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[OZBUSDRIVER]

.........I cannot believe I am going to say this...........

Thank you, Binghi. That is exactly the link.

Something sticks in my mind from my school days. I put it down to conspiracy tripe. The story went that the US was intent in draining the oil out of the middle east to neutralize the threat of unstable states...they underestimated the size of the oil reserve. But now, seeing how that North America has supplied 40% of non-OPEC resources and shielded the world from oil price shocks from the unstable African states...makes you wonder on the truth.

Shale gas is a game changer for the US economy. I just wish that the idiots that think they run this country see the reality of losing sovereign control of our fuel stocks over the last three decades. Synfuels and coal seam gas need to be incorporated into our domestic needs rather than export for minuscule value adding. Power stations built with modern energy efficient processes would be a starter. Less emissions and extension of reserves are two ready pay offs from such a course of action.

[Oracle1]

All the fashion accessories a guy like me needs



Climate Skeptic Products (http://www.climateskepticshop.com/shop)

my cap and cup are on the way

[Capn Bloggs]

my cap and cup are on the way
In true capitalist tradition, things that cost 50c to make in China being sold for $25 and $15 respectively! You've got to love it! :}

[Wally Mk2]

...oh I don't know 'bloggsy' I'm a bit 'skeptical' about that:E

Humans need to have a healthy amount of skepticism in order to keep the bastards honest here, Pollies being the biggest!

Man has been 'crapping' in his own nest since he crawled out of the swamp so it was inevitable that from the swamp all the way thru the industrial revolution to now the 21 century that we would come to this, an environment that has changed since day one & will most likely continue to change long after the human race has snuffed itself out!!!
The world turns & is still evolving & we the animal kingdom have such a small input to that it's infinitesimal in the scheme of things so arguing over who has or owns the most flees on a dogs back is insignificant!


Wmk2

[Oracle1]

touche Capn Bloggs


this is why our society is in such deep trouble

[Dexta]

We have been off the grid for about 10 years. I worked it out that it costs us around $800 per year, that covers petrol for backup gen on cloudy days, replacement of equipment over 30 years (batteries 15yrs, inverter 20yrs and panels 30yrs). We use on average 5.5 kw/h per day, so going on current prices we are about $140 per year better off, but we saved $30,000 in the beginning, as it would have cost $63,000 to get the power on and our solar system (1.9kw of panels) with gov. Rebate cost 32,000. Benefits are no power outages, no poles through paddock, negatives are maintaining batteries and gen and if something does fail then it could take a few days to get new parts.
I reckon if the power is nearby, go on the grid but if you are out in the country, with today's technology, remote power systems can be almost maint. Free and cost effective.

[Tankengine]

Of course the rest of us are paying for that $30k.:hmm:

[ferris]

30k upfront as opposed to the ongoing cost of maintaining the lines, burden on the grid of transmission loss etc.

[Angle of Attack]

Where is the 30k? I think Dexta is saying thats what he saved to be completely off grid, there is no maintanence for lines etc as he doesnt have any. No one is paying for it he is and with some common sense I am guessing he is on a rural property a few kms from the nearest power lines.....and his ongoing power bill has averaged $800 a year. Which means off the grid options are not financially feasible now for residential properties but the gap will close...

[T28D]

Great example of edge of grid PV this is as good as it gets, and the subsidy for these edge of grid people is well worth the Government input which in my view is light on !!!!!!!!!!!!! lets lower the I square R losses in the grid.

Loss into the air is straight out of our pockets, the edge of grid PV is money in our pockets long term.

[601]

if you hook a solar system into the grid you automatically pay for power you use from the grid at a higher base rate to compensate.

By using power from our panels during the day, we are in fact paying for power at the feed in tariff rate, in our case, $0.50Kw/hr.

I would much rather feed all the solar power we produce into the grid during the day at $0.50kw/h and buy power at night at off-peak rates to charge a battery bank that I could use during the day.

[Dexta]

AoA is correct, quote to get a SWER line to edge of property, plus poles, plus transformer, plus cable to house, plus other charges was $63,000. We are at the end of the line on a property about 50k out of Adelaide. Our area is well known for blackouts and brownouts due to poor state of the infrastructure around here, so off grid solar has been cheaper (at no one else's expense) and more reliable. What peeves me off now is that you can get a grid connect system with twice the panels for less than a third of what it cost us.

[OZBUSDRIVER]

http://www.thegwpf.org/content/uploads/2013/01/Mueller-Fossil-fuels.pdf

good article!

[Flying Binghi]

Hmmm... an Australian investment fund may have been involved with a death threats incident..:ooh:

Wonder how it panned out...

(2012) Dutch pension fund PGGM is the under fire in Mexico because of its plans for a wind farm in the south of the country. Furious local farmers and fishermen are demanding that the project be abandoned...

...The atmosphere in the town has deteriorated steadily. Angry locals have sabotaged the construction of an access road, occupied the town hall and forced the mayor to flee. The protestors say they’ve had death threats from community leaders who are determined to see the project go ahead at all costs.

PGGM and the two other investors, the Mitsubishi Corporation and the Australian investment fund Macquarie admit that the conflict has intensified recently but are confident construction will continue.

Dutch wind farm in trouble in Mexico | Radio Netherlands Worldwide (http://www.rnw.nl/english/article/dutch-wind-farm-trouble-mexico)






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