777 Low at SFO

[ColonelAngus]

A 777 from Taipei to San Francisco.
600 feet at 3.8 miles.
Aircrew only did something about it when the Tower alerted them.

Unbelievable.

Incident: EVA B773 at San Francisco on Jul 23rd 2013, descended below safe height (http://avherald.com/h?article=465e38db&opt=0)

Listen to ATC at elapsed time 22:12 on this: http://archive-server.liveatc.net/ksfo/KSFO-Twr2-Jul-24-2013-0330Z.mp3

Low altitude alert issued by ATC at 23:21 elapsed time followed by EVA stating that they were going around.

A visual approach, gone wrong, again...

Why do PMs not speak up sooner? (Rhetorical question)

[Sqwak7700]

I wonder how long before Cathay has one there...

[ASH1111]

Different culture, won't happen.

[White None]

Squawk - If you are CX you KNOW that we know are absolutely not cut from the same cloth as the two other carriiers being referred to. If you are not CX, please be so advised. We, (you?) may not like the rigid, rigorous, some, (not me), would say over-prescriptive, nit picking culture and training; we, (you?) may find the crm/tem lectures/models, manual references, debriefs etc a bt over the top but for all that, it hammers in and enforces adhering to SOPs, honouring Stab Criteria and a speak-up mentality. As for the doubters banging away at the inexperienced newbies and quiet submissive Asian PM stereotype - I don't find that. When push comes to shove our guys are taught, ( programmed :) ) to speak up... so do; if anything, any desire to "push on" is more likely to come from the "Old Guard". Tin Hat time

[Steve the Pirate]

Different culture, won't happen.

This sort of statement makes the hairs on the back of my neck stand up.

STP

[SMOC]

It's already happened in NGO, and they didn't go around.

[mr Q]

White None pass me the Tin Hat
Any positive comment about CX is greeted with derision on Fragrant Harbour (which should be renamed CX detractors harbour)
The fact remains Cathay has a good safety culture good (slavish??) adherence to SOPs, good CRM and a training and check regime that still (cuts notwithstanding) exceeds industry standards and probably equals the best.
The vast majority of its flight deck crew ( including the Old Fella's S/O son ) immensely enjoy their flying.They grouse about rosters promotions the company etc. ....who doesn't ?? but sadly Fragrant Harbour does not reflect that majority

[ASH1111]

STP, fair enough, as we can't predict the future with 100% accuracy. A better way to phrase it, is that we implement everything in our Flight Deck Operation that SHOULD prevent this from ever happening.

I know how myself and fellow colleagues operate on a daily basis, and what has happened with these latest incidents isn't even comprehendible in our culture.

[Steve the Pirate]

ASH, I actually agree with you, White None and mr Q. However, we always view our company operation from our own perspective and, to a degree, assume that everyone operates the same way. It could be argued that that's a reasonable assumption. However, combinations of personalities might well lead to a set of circumstances where situational awareness is compromised which, in turn, might lead to something such as the event we're discussing at the moment. As SMOC points out, this sort of thing has happened.

I suppose my point is that we're not immune to events such as this simply because our SOPs are very strong in this particular area. We should never become complacent about our operation as to do so is fraught with danger.

STP

[quadspeed]

Let's get our heads out of our asses before this get really embarrising. There'd NGO, twice ANC and the little gem into a certain middle eastern port. Not to mention slamming 3 pods into the runway in a bit of crosswind.

We may have a long history of excellence, but have now set our sights on the lowest regulatory standards and it won't be long before we're "cut from the same cloth" referred to earlier.

Anyone stating "won't happen here" need a reality check.

[badairsucker]

Different culture, won't happen.



Really,

Someone refresh my memory, but didn't a LON based captain put a 400 down to 500 feet eight miles out from CLK?:eek:

[ASH1111]

Standing by my assertion. I feel that I consistently work with individuals that operate SOP, and hold that professionalism as a point of pride.

I also think that CX HR policy of sticking with western mindset pilots has also aided in this.

Incoming!!

*p.s. not drinking any Kool aid, just hold my colleagues in high regard.

[cxorcist]

The reality is that it could happen at CX. I'm not saying it will, but the holes in the Swiss cheese start lining up when...

- fatigue due to 2 man ops at max FDP through circadian low sets in
- poor cockpit CRM due steep command gradient (new JFO perhaps)
- unfamiliar port and/or non-standard navaid irregularities
- bad weather or other distractions like high traffic densities
- mechanical / multiple MEL issues

I agree that we (CX) have a very good safety culture, but the management has been nibbling at the edges for years now. Look at the experience levels of ALL our new joiners. No offense fellas, but this is unprecedented here. The relentless push for variations to scientifically proven FTLs is another example. How about 3 man Europe? It's starting to get ridiculous...

[asianeagle]

they did the right thing....they went around:ok:

[777300ER]

We at CX shouldn't be throwing stones in that glasshouse.......and I'm worried to hear those who suggest "it could never happen here."

Your next error is waiting just around the corner

Agreed! In fact, it has happened here (ours occurred in IMC conditions). Until Flight Ops Departments are taken away from accountants and placed back in the control of pilots, these type of events will continue to occur at an increasing pace. Fifty years from now we will be looking back on this era of aviation and the hard lessons learned from our mismanagement during this epic race to the bottom.

The notion that you can dumb down the experience/skill level in the cockpit and discourage pilots from manually flying solely because of better automation is as stupid as driving recklessly because your car is equipped with Antilock Brakes.

[Kalistan]

Won't happen in CX since " we" are cut from a different cloth? Hmmm....how about a botched missed approach on a B744 where the go around procedures are as simple as it can be? Short memories?

[mr Q]

Pilot's View: Airbus A380 approach and landing at San Francisco. [VIDEO] (http://m.wimp.com/approachlanding/)
Very professional video ... Even a clip from the SFO tower
Good to see the US give the A 380 the more dignified suffix "super" rather than the more mundane "heavy" accorded to lesser equipment