TR Course AW139-Where?

[hueyracer]

As i am currently looking into the different facilities that offer type rating courses on the AW139:

Which facilities do you know?
(If you have any idea: How long does the course take? How much did it cost?)..

I only know about the factory course (?) in Italy, and heard of one in the US..

Are there any helicopter operators offering TR courses?

(The reason i am asking: We need to train 2 pilots...but the factory course seems to be fully booked until next year)...

[Heli-News]

While waiting for replies you can try these people (http://www.coptersafety.com/).

[hueyracer]

Thanks....already got in contact with them-they are waiting for the delivery of their new simulator.....their training facility will not be open before 2014...

[LOZZ]

FSI Lafayette would be the one in the US?

[Rotorbody]

Try Karen in Switzerland. They do AW139 type ratings.

[hueyracer]

Thanks...

Got a surprisingly quick answer from Lafayette...will also try Switzerland..


Thanks, guys!
:ok:

[BUBETTO]

Try in AIRGREEN Italy good luck

[tottigol]

Hueyracer, what licence do you hold? That may be a difference on where and which facility is actually authorized to provide a type rating course.

[HELIHUG]

Try Gulf Helicopters in Doha - see the attached link.


cueSim Ltd - Excellence in Simulation (http://www.cuesim.com/index.php?page=qualified-devices)

[hueyracer]

Thanks, guys..

The whole thing was due to a company interested in hiring me for a specific job, but they have been unable to use their "normal" simulator for the type rating in time.....so i have offered them to have a look at additional training facilities as well, to see if i could find an open slot...

Unfortunately, i could not....so they had to hire someone else (less experience, but with current type rating)...

No big deal....
Thx!

[GRIFO1978]

Hi!where is possible to attend an aw139 type rating course?

[Non-PC Plod]

The obvious answer is at Agusta Westland!

[GRIFO1978]

Is this the only training center?

[rotorboy]

AW Sesto Calende (CAE) $70K
AW NETC (USA) $ 70 K
FSI LFT (USA) $50K
Era helicopters, 40K ish

CAE sim in KL

[evergreen139]

Hi everyone!
Could someone tell the exact value of TR139 price? or where I can get info?

To be more specified: I did TR in Sesto Calende last year, (VFR only :ugh:).
So it was Ground school+7 sessions in sim+ 4h on real AC (3h+1h check).
Thank you in advance!

[NRDK]

So you went to SC, enrolled on a course was given all the fees and details that the training school provide, did the course, sim & flew (VFR :ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:) but in all that time couldn't sort out whilst there what the full course would cost????

You'll be turning up at one of the big players, cap in hand looking for a job next?? Hope you can reverse the more money than common sense problem you have thrown at our feet.

[evergreen139]

NRDK

not exactly :rolleyes:
the course was free for our company, because it purchased some 139s.
So even in my own company they dont know the price exactly).
But... according to the contract if someone wants to leave before the agreement expires he has to pay the TR price....(:mad:
P.S. I tried asking in SC, but couldn't get full course cost...

[NRDK]

OK, sorry I take it all back.....you work for a two bit muppet company and I fully understand your need to leave now. Good luck, you have demonstrate some common sense in looking to better yourself. It is a shame some small players (companies) are so tight that they can't fully train their employees, pay them enough to retain the staff loyalty:D

[GoodGrief]

Hit and sunk...LOL...:ok:

[evergreen139]

Loyalty... you know it's not all about payment, but also a relationship of managment to employees. So if payment,stuff training,relationship are at low level then the 'loyalty' to the company should be at the same low level, or shouldn't?) :mad:

[tottigol]

There's a very important difference between cheaper and less expensive.
Less expensive does not pertain here, but lack of quality does.

[Stanley11]

Sirs,

I have about 700hrs on AS350 and 1000hrs on a Multi-engine aircraft. Ex-military. Qualified in IR, NVG, etc. Would like to take my CPL(H) and start my journey towards 139 T/R. Can a kind soul point me in the right direction to do so? Costs, location and duration? I took the initiative and wrote to Abu Dhabi Aviation but I reckon that they will cost a lot and an Australian flight school. Still awaiting reply.

Much appreciated for any advice given.

[blackbird20]

Hi!

The AW139 T/R would cost 60.000 euros (around this). You can attend many available trainning organizations but I recommend AW in Vergiati, Italy.

Best of luck with your career.

[The Craw]

Were these USD figures you quoted last year? I'm keen to get some up to date information re AW139 training centre options & their pricing. Can you help?

[aw139pic]

There is a TRTO just started in Helsinki last year w/AW139 sim. Quality of the training unknown. Anyone having any helpful info !

[katismo]

Could recommend. Check it out. Coptersafety (http://coptersafety.com/en/home)

:ok:

[aw139pic]

I've heared they are, like other A139 training org, using guys with no instructor experience. Is this correct.

[tottigol]

No instructor and no 139 experience. Reading from the books, just like you would.

[aw139pic]

I guess most training are unfortunately done this way. But it doesn't take very much to deliver a product equal to, or better than AW. But the quality will always be so much better if the instructors have plenty of instruction- and sim background. This takes time to build up, but will be the things making the difference at the end. It's a shame that training organisations do shortcuts here. I assume Money Talks - again.

[tottigol]

It doesn't take much, right.
What makes you say that, it seems you've had a bad experience training with AW.
Or where did you receive your initial training?

[aw139pic]

Correct, my training was performed by AW. And having been there several times since then, we also know what requirement AW have, when recruiting instructors. Some of them have been there for years, and still have obtained only 3-4 hours in the actual aircraft. Hope the setup in Helsinki will not be identical.

[tottigol]

It will be identical, or worse.
AW Instructors get to know the aircraft better because of what is available to them in terms of back up material.
But since you are, supposedly, a very experienced AW139 pilot and gainfully employed, would take a 30% paycut just for the love of teaching?
Or do you mean that you really know the aiircraft better than the AWTA instructors?

[aw139pic]

Happy & employed - what else could one ask for. But I've still experienced that any aircraft factory should not be having their own training department. It will be "second in line" in most cases.

[tottigol]

One is entitled to his own beliefs.
You can always dry lease the simulator and make up your own training as you go.
Make up are the key words here.

[aw139pic]

That's not the issue - but I have to fellow pilots looking for a rating. Nothing else.

[NomadicMechanic]

No instructor and no 139 experience. Reading from the books, just like you would.

Not entirely true tottigol,

From what I understand the provider in Helsinki employ their instructors on a freelance basis, using them as and when required by the course schedules and I know that at least a couple of them have day jobs as captains for Weststar so certainly hold 139 experience in addition to being EASA TRE's/TRI's. This is just what I've heard though so please correct me if I'm wrong.

Cheers,

NM

[tottigol]

Not entirely true tottigol,

From what I understand the provider in Helsinki employ their instructors on a freelance basis, using them as and when required by the course schedules and I know that at least a couple of them have day jobs as captains for Weststar so certainly hold 139 experience in addition to being EASA TRE's/TRI's. This is just what I've heard though so please correct me if I'm wrong.

Cheers,

NM

And as such, they receive and can only provide the same training as that any other pilot type rated in the 139.
AW Factory instructors can provide deeper insights and information because of the background training and standardization required of the ATO and TCOE.

You may as well dry lease the simulator.

[Camp Freddie]

One of the instructors they use in Helsinki is one of the highest time pilots in the world on type I would think on the real aircraft and a excellent sim instructor, as well as being EASA TRI/TRE.

[evergreen139]

Freddie, can you tell his/her name? Maybe pm?

[Geoffersincornwall]

... When a new type (in my case the AW139) arrives in the market there are NO pilots and NO instructors with operational experience to man the simulator built for the new machine. Yes, I know there was a brief hiatus before the AW139 simulator appeared but in that time there were only a few pilots that might qualify for the title 'operationally experienced' and they were, one way or another, firmly tied to their companies.

That mean that the simulator operators had to train up people with appropriate experience to take on the role of SFI and crack on with training hundreds and hundreds of new pilots as best they can.

During that period they acquired a unique blend of skills but these did depend on them having enough appropriate operational experience to 'lean on' during that period. It's easy to say in hindsight that maybe there were not enough SFI's with offshore experience but don't forget the AW139 has penetrated just about every market sector that could accommodate a medium twin.

Would those who are critical of SFI's (like me) who have just tens of hours on the real thing like to see us moved on so that those with 'operational experience' and hundreds of those operational hours - thousands even - can be brought in to replace us?

In the real world finding anyone to do the SFI's job is hard enough but to kick out the guys who arguably have the most SFI time (3,000 hours in my case) would hardly be an incentive for those looking at an SFI job teaching on the AW189 or the AW 169, or for that matter the new generations of Airbus, Sikorsky and Bell machinery.

As the number of operational simulators grows so the difficulty of finding people who are capable of teaching in one of the most challenging of environments also grows. Those of you who have been less well served by incompetent (insufficiently trained?) SFI's will know what I mean.

A little more understanding by all involved would, I think, be appropriate. We may live in an imperfect world but that does not mean it has to be dysfunctional. Get the right people, train them well, treat them well and invest in a long serving and capable work force. I maintain, as you would expect, that I am just as capable of delivering a good TR course as a Gomer or North Sea veteran. It's OK for you to disagree but the reality is that simulators, when they begin working, will never be staffed by pilots with extensive operational experience.


G.

[Bravo73]

Would those who are critical of SFI's (like me) who have just tens of hours on the real thing like to see us moved on so that those with 'operational experience' and hundreds of those operational hours - thousands even - can be brought in to replace us?

Now that your employer (the Sim Operator) has contacts across the world with AW139 operators, could they organise some sort of exchange programme so that you could fly the line operationally somewhere? In exchange, the Operator's TRE/TRIs could get experiance on the OEM sim?

[tottigol]

Very difficult if not impossible to do, as the "exchange" instructor would need to be added to the ooerator certificate.

[Bravo73]

Very difficult if not impossible to do, as the "exchange" instructor would need to be added to the ooerator certificate.

Where there's a will, there's a way.

There are already exchange programmes running between different operators around the world. If the AW OEM SFIs could be involved, it would certainly help their credibility.

[Geoffersincornwall]

Great idea and it has been tried but unfortunately no operator is going to do it for free and I believe that it was just too expensive. There is also a dilemma for us old shags who flogged the North Sea (and other playgrounds) for the best part of 35 years and are now too old to play that game anymore :( , plus there are a few who may not have a medical but can do a damn good job in the box.

As I said, we have to find a way around this particular difficulty and given good will on both sides this can be done. Key is the SFI having the background in the role his candidates are working in and if not then the school needs to give him some exposure to that world in the sim ao that he doesn't look (and feel :sad: ) a complete idiot when trying to teach the nuts and bolts of the TR or finds himself making a nonsense of a LOFT session.

Most of us want to do a good job by you guys and gals but we can't work miracles if the system we work in seems incapable of preparing us adequately. Everyone in the aviation world is looking for cheaper ways to do anything and everything and against that background delivering 'quality' in our sector is always going to be a challenge.

G. :ok:

[tottigol]

Geoff and Bravo,
The system is not incapable, it was just never designed or intended to function that way, so far.
There are misgivings about the requirement for a specific background experience, it may help the SFI establish some common ground with the trainees, thus making his/her job easier but deep down inside what counts is systems and procedures knowledge, and that applies to any helicopter type.
One major O&G support operator does not require that their "loaned" SFIs have offshore experience, it requires instead for their instructors to be trained to its standards.
Also, just because you are flying the sectors every day for six weeks and a lifetime, doesn't necessarily mean that it will improve your knowledge of the aircraft, quite the opposite in fact in some environments and types of operations (I speak from personal experience from both sides of the fence if it may help).:E
It's a Type Rating course, and I cannot quite recall what part of the EASA or FAA or CASA or ANAC or TC RFMs include OSAPs and ARAs or PIC Judgement in dealing with a deceiving customer dispatcher.
All I can find with regard to Offshore operations is in Suppl 9, 12 and 50 of the RFM.

[Geoffersincornwall]

I'm not going to argue with any of that because I agree that a TR is not role-specific. However that's only 50% of the job of a school SFI, the rest is recurrent training and there it IS role specific, at least when you are dealing with LOFT training.

Of course there is an element of good basic training in the mix and you are quite right, there is no substitute for knowing your systems and procedures. In this day and age of complex helicopters we often come across malfunctions that are not in the RFM so system knowledge and good airmanship combine to give us a quality we like to call 'pilot resilience'. It will make the difference between getting everyone on terra firma safely and not.....

This is where the sim scores so heavily and combined with a good SFI will make all the difference. :)

G :ok:

[aw139pic]

Some of you guys discussed the new training facility in Helsinki. I just talked to one of my old friends from Aberdeen, they've been there for recurrent training. Seems like Copter Safety are getting worse than AgustaWestland ever thought of. Experienced AW139 people among the permanent staff does not exist anymore, and they are using pilots with no instructor background, they just give them a TRI, and off you go. There HOT has never seen the AW139.
So if you go there, better bring your own instructor. Unfortunately - this is the
result when money is the only thing on their mind.
However, the sim itself seems to be working well, they say. But I guess they normally do - CAE built them all.

[Jet Ranger]

Well, I've heard totally opposite, a two days ago.

JR

[aw139pic]

Well, I havn't been there myself yet, but as far as I've been told, when they started last year, everything was looking very good. Experienced instructors with lots of instructor background and hours on AW139. But when these guys start leaving, things changes of course, especially within such a small company.
And this seems to be the case with many training facilities all over. Training quality is no longer the most important thing, unfortunately. Reading the earlier postings confirms this as well.
But like I've mentioned: if you're there with your own instructors, this will not be noticed, I assume.

[Same again]

No idea about instructor standards at Helsinki as we took our own but everything else is a dream compared with other sims. Good connections to Helsinki, sim close to the airport, great hotels minutes away from the sim with complimentary taxi. No Sesto security hassles, well maintained sim, comfortable, quiet classrooms and good instructional aids, pleasant, helpful staff, free food, coffee and soft drinks, comfortable waiting lounge, good availability and slot times. Cannot praise it highly enough.

[tottigol]

Exactly bring your own and make up the training based on what you know, how good is that?

[Um... lifting...]

Still, tott... he nearly had me at free coffee.

The coffee situation in Sesto is completely unacceptable.

[tottigol]

Easily corrected, provided you don't ask for that crappy American broth.:hmm:

[EC155B1]

Awesome facility with very experienced instructors and examiners both for ground classes as well as Sim.

Wonderful experience to carry forward with the support and services at place from all account.

Recently been there and done that.

[tottigol]

EC-155B, on what aircraft did you train?